Newbie 1817 - Bolo (Game Over)

[Gorny]

VOTE: Gorny His avatar looks super shady, or space ghosty but until he comes out of the shadows I can't be sure.

<--------------
It's Batman

Dunno about a monkey smoking a cig though...

Looks unpredictable.

Avatar truce?

Or should I change it to my other standby: Jack O'Neill from Stargate SG-1?

Uh, YES!!

[Gorny]

<---------

[MotherGothel28]

<---------

Pocket attempt SUCCESSFUL!!! I love him!!

[Gorny]

It's all in the eyes.

[Xa ligha]

Those eyes are creepy. And I thought jack was the nerdy guy, I'm slightly disappointed.

[Gorny]

No Daniel was the nerdy guy.

[MotherGothel28]

Those eyes are creepy. And I thought jack was the nerdy guy, I'm slightly disappointed.

You can't be disappointed in McGuyver!

[Gorny]

Those eyes are creepy. And I thought jack was the nerdy guy, I'm slightly disappointed.

You can't be disappointed in McGuyver!

Spoiler: not game related - The Stargate MacGyver Gag Joke

[MotherGothel28]

Yes! I loved when they actually threw McGuyver jokes into the shows script. I swear in one episode they threw in a few comments about needing duct tape and I couldn't stop laughing, my husband was so confused!!

[GreyICE]

So IC post, yay! I'm your "Inexperienced Challenged" which is a cutsey way of saying I've been playing for a while. Join date isn't particularly indicative of skill, but it is indicative of experience!

Many of you will have either not played mafia, or played it on other sites. It's pretty obvious how the game works (we lynch one person each day, the bad guys kill one person each night) but here's a few unique terms and things to MS:

"Scum"

- The bad guys. This term evolved as a unifier for Werewolf/Mafia as the bad guys in the game, and has grown to incorporate every anti-town role (serial killers, arsonists, cults, lynchers, anyone who wants townies to die as part of their win condition). It's not meant as a value judgment here - it's practically a neutral term. I apologize if it's offensive, but it's as much a part of site culture as the term "lynch" (which can also be offensive) and it's not going anywhere.

RQS

- Random Question Stage. This was an early form of the answer of "how to start the game", and it was asking people random questions, like "do you watch wrestling" and "how old are you". This had two serious drawbacks. First, the answers were quite canned after a while, and often had no relevant information to the mafia game. And second, RQS would spawn side conversations that had nothing to do with mafia, and thus would create "noise" that interfered with playing the game.

RVS

- Random Voting Stage. This cuts to the chase. We're here to decide who to lynch today. So vote people for semi-meaningless reasons, because humans are bad at randomness. Really, it's a thing. We suck hard at randomness. So all those "random" votes really aren't, and there's alignment relevant information within them. That can then be used to kick off the game.

Lurking

- to read the game without posting. Usually considered scummy, as it is a strong scum tactic to "stay off the radar". It's hard to read people who don't post.

Gameplay tactics:

Town

have the following goals:
- Find scum
- Work with other town players to get scum lynched
- Avoid being lynched

This is the general order of priority. Finding scum is your highest priority. If you can't find scum, you can't win. Goal number two is working with other players to get scum lynched. No one player can EVER lynch scum on their own, it always requires at least two. Other people have to listen to you! So you need to get other people on your side.

Scum Tactic

Finding townies who are wrong and agreeing with them can be very powerful. Done well you can get a lynch on town and then leave them taking the heat the next day. At worst everyone will agree it's a "good lynch" and not consider your vote. Be careful, you don't want to be seen as agreeing with every wagon, but done judiciously "oh that makes sense" can be a really strong position post.

Finally, you want to appear town. This is of tertiary importance, but if every townie did it perfectly we'd win every game. Don't put too much effort into it, but do work with others enough they can town read you. Explain your thoughts. You don't have to answer endless questions, but at least talk to others about what you're doing.

Scum

have the following goals:

- Survive the day phase
- Have your partners survive the day phase
- Be set up to survive later day phases

This really is the entire goal. Town wants exactly two people lynched, but you will settle for anyone town (and at worst, even ANYONE who isn't you, your partner included). If you never get lynched you win. That's your goal. Blend in, act like townies, be town enough to avoid the wagon. This can very much be an exercise of "not being the slowest" - if the lynch is a bear you just have to always beat out the slowest runner - and you have a friend to give someone a push. You're in this with your buddy, and it's a vast hostile world, but you have a lot of information the town doesn't.

Night kills are for finding power roles, and killing townies who you don't think are lynchable in the long run. It's how you make your long-term plans. If each day is an exercise in not being the slowest, then each night is an effort to shoot the fastest, the best bear wrangler, the person who is the biggest threat to you. Oh and if you think someone has a power role they need to die.

Town hint

: If you are a "vanilla townie" then you are well suited for a strong leadership role or a role as a trusted adviser to important people. You want to be that super fast person who the scum shoot, because your power roles are stronger in night play. Getting shot by scum is a compliment - it means they looked at the player list and said "this player is one we find scary and strong, our chances to win drop if they're alive". They will shoot someone, and if it's you then you've done well.

So that's basically the game. Town want to hunt down scum and lynch them. Scum want to avoid being lynched at all costs, and use the night kill to help shape this.

One quick strategy note:

Lynch All Liars

- a common strategy here. Lying is anti-town, and there are vanishingly few town motives to lie. On the other hand scum lie every time they post. In general, every player caught in a direct lie should be lynched outright, even if the lie seems minor. Town players, please don't lie.

Common fallacies from other sites:

No Lynch:

"How can we kill someone if we don't have concrete information?" I've heard this question a lot. The answer is "very easily!" We're a paranoid lynch mob, after all. But the better question is "why would we kill someone without concrete information?" The answer is simple.

Preserving townie lives is an illusion.

First, scum will kill one person each night, so townies will die regardless. Second, the only way we can win is by lynching players. The more players we lynch, the better the town's chances of winning. Giving up a lynch is giving up a chance to win. There's some times where it's appropriate, but they're extremely rare.

Notably, if you look at the section above, avoiding the lynch is the scum's primary motivation. By not lynching you've guaranteed you're not lynching scum.

I need a tell!

- Scum tells are like poker tells. They're not really "he tugs his ear" or "she adjusts her glasses" but more like moves made for a reason. Townies want to find and lynch scum, and know only their own alignment. Scum have to fake all arguments to lynch townies, only have one other player they want to live (in this game) and know everyone's alignments. This makes people play differently.

Is this game just psychological mumbo-jumbo?

Yes, in a sense. This is applied psychology, and psychology is a soft science indeed. Everything is a generalization, even if it's a very good one, and you have to figure out how it applies to specific people here. You will also discover many, many psychological ticks you suffer from yourself - confirmation bias, just world theorem, exploitable sympathy, etc. Scum are basically playing the role of con artists, and every time you fall for it you've been conned.

More in a bit, then I'll actually start playing.

[GreyICE]

Wall of text crits for over 9000!

Now I got that joke in first ^_^

[Gorny]

Wall of text crits for over 9000!

Now I got that joke in first ^_^

Welcome GreyIce, nice to see you!

Guess I'll unvote now that you are here.

UNVOTE: GreyIce

[GreyICE]

Hi there! But I haven't made any alignment-relevant posts yet (as an IC it's my job to do this as town or scum) so are you sure you want to unvote?

One more 'general thoughts' post then I'm probably done for the evening.

[Gorny]

Im inclined to unvote because my vote was based on you not yet showing up, which means nothing. So we start with a blank slate and go from there.

[GreyICE]

Now for setup specific thoughts!

Newbie Setup

Matrix6 (as designed by Cogito Ergo Sum)

	A	B	C
1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
3	Town 1-shot Bulletproof	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

Each Newbie Game will be given a setup that incorporates either one row or one column. The remaining six roles will be filled in by mafia goons and vanilla townies appropriately, to create a 2-mafia and 7-town setup. For example Row 1 (1 jailkeeper, 1 vanilla townie, 1 mafia goon) would add an additional 5 vanilla townies and 1 mafia goon, for a total setup of 1 jailkeeper, 6 vanilla townies, and 2 mafia goons.

This is a very, very complicated way to say things and I don't like it. All newbie setups are 7 town players, two scum players. There are six setups:

Jailkeeper, 1-shot BP, 5 VTs vs. Roleblocker+Goon
Cop, Doctor, 5 VTs vs. Roleblocker+Goon

Cop, 6 VTs vs 2 goons
Jailkeeper, 6 VTs vs 2 goons

Tracker, Doctor, vs. 2 goons
Tracker, 1-shot BP vs. 2 goons

You'll notice a few peculiarities. A mafia team knows exactly what the setup is as soon as a single townie claims, unless that claim is Tracker. Every other role gives it away due to the fact they know whether or not the Roleblocker exists.

Playing the roles:

Cop:

Cop is the strongest role on the list. Cops should investigate "middle of the pack" players usually - players unlikely to be lynched the next day, but also unlikely to be killed. They should pick one they suspect of being scum. In this setup cops should claim as soon as they get a single "scum" result. Town results you may "breadcrumb" by placing them as the most town player on a read list or otherwise indicating you know they're town, but try to be subtle.

Doctor:

Doctor is a surprisingly weak role because, again, preserving townie lives is an ultimately futile goal. One nice thing is if you prevent a kill you know it's very likely your target is town (scum can gambit and no-kill, but this is unlikely to be a strong tactic). You wish to doctor any claimed cops or trackers, especially if the roleblocker is dead.

Tracker:

You are playing a 50% cop. The only role that gives "fake" results for you is the doctor. This makes it simple - if you see someone going to the person who died, they're not the doctor. Claim immediately and lynch that person.

1-Shot BP:

If you're about to get lynched, feel free to claim. This role is not very strong, but it essentially makes you immune to lynching. It's the weakest role here, and it's probably getting replaced.

Roleblocker:

Roleblockers are important for the cop+Doctor setup because they can block the cop before the doctor is killed. Due to this, it's important for scum to prioritize keeping the roleblocker alive until they know they're in the BP+JK scenario. Roleblockers should block claimed town power roles, or failing that probably whoever they think isn't VT. I am bad at finding non-VTs as scum, so I unfortunately can't give great advice.

[GreyICE]

Missed above:

Jailkeeper:

Night 1 you might want to protect a very town read player. After that, you're trying to stop the night kill by blocking scum. Once you lynch one scum every block on a night where there's a kill confirms the blocked player town. Therefore early scum lynches are VERY strong and once one scum is dead you should be targeting the scummiest players.

[GreyICE]

Needless to say, townies should NEVER claim their role day 1 except in one specific circumstance.

At L-1 we pause the voting to ask for a claim. Townies should claim their role at this time.
Scum should claim whatever role they think might keep them alive. If there is no scum roleblocker then 1-shot BP and Doctor can both work although it is a 25% chance to essentially "fool" the town as to what setup you're in:

Jailkeeper, 1-shot BP, 5 VTs vs. Roleblocker+Goon
Jailkeeper, 6 VTs vs 2 goons

Cop, Doctor, 5 VTs vs. Roleblocker+Goon
Cop, 6 VTs vs 2 goons

This has only a 1 in 4 of working. If you have a roleblocker you're flat screwed, and should probably claim cop.

Counterclaming:

If scum claim a role you know isn't in the game due to the fact that your role eliminates that possibility (look at the setups)

Scum claim 1-shot BP:

The 1-shot BP should counterclaim immediately for the scum lynch. Tracker should claim immediately and the Doctor (if there is one) should protect the tracker. This is a 50/50 for scum, so tracker claiming is correct. Cop should do nothing, use night to investigate a different player, then claim Day 2 for the scum lynch+second result (which in the best case can win the game).

Scum claim Doctor:

1-shot BP should counterclaim immediately. Jailkeeper should flip a coin on blocking the claim (aka claimed scum) then day 2 claim, and

announce who they're blocking.

With one scum lynch guaranteed, the person you're blocking is either confirmed town (if the jailkeeper dies) or gets lynched immediately if no one dies, and then repeat. Day 2 or later, claim immediately and claim who you're blocking. Doctor should claim immediately to counterclaim.

Scum claim cop:

Cop should wait until day 2, then claim and claim all results. 1-shot BP claim immediately, tracker wait to see if BP claims and then claim. Jailkeeper do the same as above.

Scum claim Jailkeeper:

See above

Scum claim 1-shot BP:

See above.

Claiming VT is rarely a reason to unvote... except that scum would claim a power role to try and get that 25% chance or at least out a real power role... except then scum would never claim VT so all VT claims would be town... ever seen the Princess Bride? The scene with the poisoned wine? It's basically like that. This is called "Wine in front of me" or WIFOM, and can be quite the pit. There's no easy way to solve it, but trying to do so is the game.

[GreyICE]

NB: Tracker should always wait for 1-shot BP to counterclaim before counterclaiming if they know that a player's claim is scum. It's much better for the BP to claim as you have the stronger role.

[Aster]

So we've had 10 hours without a single post.
We're running out of leads.
Rather, it seems like up to now, I am the only one generating leads and everyone else is reducing them.
You know, like a bunch of politicians who are against any proposed tax hike or budget cut, but never propose a solution to the budget deficit themselves.
Only ever stating the safe popular opinions.

So,

MotherGothel28

, I am calling upon YOU to generate our next lead.

Also, GreyICE, you still haven't said anything but tell-less generic IC info yet. How about stating something non-IC next time?

[Xa ligha]

It's the weekend chill out. Also game's are slower.

[GreyICE]

Also, GreyICE, you still haven't said anything but tell-less generic IC info yet. How about stating something non-IC next time?

Indeed I have not! It's a good thing to notice. Talking about the game in a general sense is a good way for scum to sound townie, since they can make a post full of very true things without ever saying anything about the game. In addition you can derail things into discussing the finer points of mafia theory, which can often score you town points without the effort of scumhunting, or a need to discuss the basis of your opinions (which, as scum, will always be false). In fact I often call people out for it, and have lynched no few scum that way. This is sometimes called "Not Alignment Indicative" abbreviated NAI.*

Unfortunately I am also the IC, and thus I have a responsibility to at least lead with the wall post. I do also owe you thoughts about the game. Which will be in the next post, this is still all theory~


*NAI is an overused term. As I discussed even "random" things like RVS are done for subconscious reasons that can reveal important information about a player's alignment. As such I don't suggest you use it. Most things are at least a little alignment indicative, and even if the event itself isn't alignment indicative ("I have less time to post because its finals week") how people react to it can be alignment indicative (scum using the opportunity to coast, versus town trying to contribute at least some thoughts, etc.).

[GreyICE]

Please note I very rarely break my thoughts out this way because it's usually not the best strategy. It distracts from what you want people to focus on, and it's often information that doesn't help anyone.

adilm29h

- the thing with the vote box seemed genuine, but the thing about roles under the name was extremely self-conscious. Fancy Pants, who he was voting, had "goon" under their name. Since he read FancyPants comments, he must have noticed, but he didn't mention it until the next post. His case is extremely tenuous, but most "cases" posted on page 2 are extremely tenuous, and he's trying to move the game forward. It's not the worst reasoning in the world, but he'd feature on my "possible scum" list.

Aster

is going to play our obvious townie for the day. She's got a sense of humor, but is also posting a lot of thoughts about the game and they're good ones. She notes that Adilm's question seems fake, and that's a damn good reason to vote someone. Her impatience doesn't seem to be of the "how will people react to me" variety (which can be scum) but the "why isn't more happening" variety, which mostly comes from town. Calling out MotherGothel28 is not only a great strategy to generate content by randomly putting someone on the hot seat to see what they do, but the mark of an experienced player - it's the sort of move that tells me that someone has a lot of mafia experience, and more than that has used that experience to get better at the game.

Despite the fact she's good, she's still obviously town. If she's scum she'll rank as one of the best players on MS if she keeps up at this rate, and if she's town she's still "merely" excellent.

Xa ligha

is interesting.

Spoiler: IC Stuff

I'm going to use this to highlight a mafiascum specific rule -

don't discuss ongoing games

- and explain how it works. Xa ligha mentions he has played one other game. That game is Newbie 1809. Now what is fair game and not fair game? I can mention if he's in other games. I can mention he's dead in that game (public information posted on the first page of the game). I can mention if he's posting on site in other threads. I cannot mention:

- any details about what he posts, how he posts, or his behavior in that game
- his alignment in that game (a backdoor way to do the above usually)
- any contrast between what he says in that game and here
- anything at all about any detail, action, or anything else that occurred in that game.

Once the game is over, I can discuss any and all of these things, but until then this is off limits. This is one of the most strictly enforced rule on Mafiascum - players have been modkilled in ongoing games for making threads in our "Mafia Discussion" forum that allowed players to infer they were town based on what they posted there. What Xa Ligha said (I've played one other game) is the most you should say, and discussing any details of that game is NOT ALLOWED in the strongest terms.

In this game xa ligha isn't giving much input. Nothing he's said is relevant to people's alignments. The "chill out" line feels slightly townie, because town is more likely to tell other players that they're playing wrong - scum are afraid of "playing wrong" and are less likely to call it out in that way. This is tentative, so it only gives me a small "lean town".

MotherGothel28

is someone who is spending a lot of posts doing very little. She calls out Aster for playing the game too seriously, but she doesn't follow up this "scummy" behavior with a vote. She is happy to talk about how she plays mafia, where she's played mafia, but she's not really playing mafia. In fact lately she's been deliberately NOT playing mafia and discussing McGuyver. Being generically friendly is a strong mafia strategy, and she didn't follow up on her Aster read at all. Lean scum.

FrozenMagpie

's call out of Aster is much better than MotherGothel's. First... well, it's first. Remember when I said "agreeing with a townie who is wrong is a strong scum move"? Simply being the first to say something makes it townier than the second to say something, for the most part. Second, it feels better thought out, while MG's feels like a throwaway's.

Gorny

is our power poster. He has 18 posts when the next closest player has 13. That sort of activity and enthusiasm usually yells town. But not always. He's out there, happy to post, not worrying about things. His vote on me for "not posting" was very neutral (it's 100% true, can't be argued with, but also doesn't commit him to anything because I fix it by posting - but also it's worth calling out people who aren't producing content). If he had more experience I'd find it scummier. I find his general commitment to be a little meh. He calls out Aster and derails her case in post #68, which doesn't particularly move the game forward. It could be defending a newbie from an unjust attack, but not adding anything else to the game it feels content for the game to flounder. Still, it's also just a mark of inexperience - it's hard to realize games have to move forward, and early reasons will often be slightly spurious (although it's far from impossible to catch scum on page 1). Lean slight town.

Fancy Pants

gets an amazing number of town points for post #25. I'm a little surprised that a 2012 join date has as few games as he does, so I feel like he might be someone's alt. His vote on Gorny where it is is pretty damn solid. I like him as town.

Draynth

rounds out the lot. And I wish I had more to say, but his four posts don't give me much to work with.

So for my current ordering:

Aster
Frozen Magpie
Fancy Pants
------
Xa ligha
Gormy
Draynth
-----
adamlhi
MotherGothel28

Vote Mother Gothel28

Spoiler:

Note: It's always worth having a vote down on your strongest suspect. Voting commits you to a read, and vote patterns can be used to spot scum. Voting is a tool, but it should only be targeted at people you believe (at that moment) are scum. Your reads should evolve over the course of the game, nothing I posted above is set in stone.

[MotherGothel28]

Alright, now we are getting into the meat of the game!

Please note I very rarely break my thoughts out this way because it's usually not the best strategy. It distracts from what you want people to focus on, and it's often information that doesn't help anyone.

adilm29h

- the thing with the vote box seemed genuine, but the thing about roles under the name was extremely self-conscious. Fancy Pants, who he was voting, had "goon" under their name. Since he read FancyPants comments, he must have noticed, but he didn't mention it until the next post. His case is extremely tenuous, but most "cases" posted on page 2 are extremely tenuous, and he's trying to move the game forward. It's not the worst reasoning in the world, but he'd feature on my "possible scum" list.

Aster

is going to play our obvious townie for the day. She's got a sense of humor, but is also posting a lot of thoughts about the game and they're good ones. She notes that Adilm's question seems fake, and that's a damn good reason to vote someone. Her impatience doesn't seem to be of the "how will people react to me" variety (which can be scum) but the "why isn't more happening" variety, which mostly comes from town. Calling out MotherGothel28 is not only a great strategy to generate content by randomly putting someone on the hot seat to see what they do, but the mark of an experienced player - it's the sort of move that tells me that someone has a lot of mafia experience, and more than that has used that experience to get better at the game.

Despite the fact she's good, she's still obviously town. If she's scum she'll rank as one of the best players on MS if she keeps up at this rate, and if she's town she's still "merely" excellent.

Xa ligha

is interesting.

Spoiler: IC Stuff

I'm going to use this to highlight a mafiascum specific rule -

don't discuss ongoing games

- and explain how it works. Xa ligha mentions he has played one other game. That game is Newbie 1809. Now what is fair game and not fair game? I can mention if he's in other games. I can mention he's dead in that game (public information posted on the first page of the game). I can mention if he's posting on site in other threads. I cannot mention:

- any details about what he posts, how he posts, or his behavior in that game
- his alignment in that game (a backdoor way to do the above usually)
- any contrast between what he says in that game and here
- anything at all about any detail, action, or anything else that occurred in that game.

Once the game is over, I can discuss any and all of these things, but until then this is off limits. This is one of the most strictly enforced rule on Mafiascum - players have been modkilled in ongoing games for making threads in our "Mafia Discussion" forum that allowed players to infer they were town based on what they posted there. What Xa Ligha said (I've played one other game) is the most you should say, and discussing any details of that game is NOT ALLOWED in the strongest terms.

In this game xa ligha isn't giving much input. Nothing he's said is relevant to people's alignments. The "chill out" line feels slightly townie, because town is more likely to tell other players that they're playing wrong - scum are afraid of "playing wrong" and are less likely to call it out in that way. This is tentative, so it only gives me a small "lean town".

MotherGothel28

is someone who is spending a lot of posts doing very little. She calls out Aster for playing the game too seriously, but she doesn't follow up this "scummy" behavior with a vote. She is happy to talk about how she plays mafia, where she's played mafia, but she's not really playing mafia. In fact lately she's been deliberately NOT playing mafia and discussing McGuyver. Being generically friendly is a strong mafia strategy, and she didn't follow up on her Aster read at all. Lean scum.

FrozenMagpie

's call out of Aster is much better than MotherGothel's. First... well, it's first. Remember when I said "agreeing with a townie who is wrong is a strong scum move"? Simply being the first to say something makes it townier than the second to say something, for the most part. Second, it feels better thought out, while MG's feels like a throwaway's.

Gorny

is our power poster. He has 18 posts when the next closest player has 13. That sort of activity and enthusiasm usually yells town. But not always. He's out there, happy to post, not worrying about things. His vote on me for "not posting" was very neutral (it's 100% true, can't be argued with, but also doesn't commit him to anything because I fix it by posting - but also it's worth calling out people who aren't producing content). If he had more experience I'd find it scummier. I find his general commitment to be a little meh. He calls out Aster and derails her case in post #68, which doesn't particularly move the game forward. It could be defending a newbie from an unjust attack, but not adding anything else to the game it feels content for the game to flounder. Still, it's also just a mark of inexperience - it's hard to realize games have to move forward, and early reasons will often be slightly spurious (although it's far from impossible to catch scum on page 1). Lean slight town.

Fancy Pants

gets an amazing number of town points for post #25. I'm a little surprised that a 2012 join date has as few games as he does, so I feel like he might be someone's alt. His vote on Gorny where it is is pretty damn solid. I like him as town.

Draynth

rounds out the lot. And I wish I had more to say, but his four posts don't give me much to work with.

So for my current ordering:

Aster
Frozen Magpie
Fancy Pants
------
Xa ligha
Gormy
Draynth
-----
adamlhi
MotherGothel28

Vote Mother Gothel28

Spoiler:

Note: It's always worth having a vote down on your strongest suspect. Voting commits you to a read, and vote patterns can be used to spot scum. Voting is a tool, but it should only be targeted at people you believe (at that moment) are scum. Your reads should evolve over the course of the game, nothing I posted above is set in stone.

First, I do appreciate that you're mostly keeping your guidance and gameplay separate, as in my experience it is (as you said) pretty easy for scum to skate by as town just for seeming helpful by posting nothing but facts about the game.

Second, and more importantly at this point, just because I have said something is scummy doesn't mean I have drawn a town or scum read on that player so far. Even more so, it is suspicious when something as obvious as a vote is missed, as my vote is already on Aster. Would you have wanted me to re-vote for them? That doesn't make any sense, and is a very weak situation with a

huge

hole in it to base a vote on. That reads to me as someone who isn't paying attention to the game, which is unlikely for town trying to make a full reads list as you just managed to. Scum however are much more likely to skim the thread looking for anything they can make a false case against. My plan tonight was to go back and reread the thread, but you just rushed yourself to the top of my scum list.

I would like to know what other players think of that huge piece of missed information in this early case against me.

UNVOTE: Aster
VOTE: GreyICE

[MotherGothel28]

Uhhh... Idk what I did there, I tried to use spoiler tags to hide the bulk of that post without actually deleting it, so I could respond to the relevant section, I'm sorry for getting my tags wrong. If anyone can let me know what I did wrong so I don't do it again, that would be helpful. I was replying to post #96 for the record, the bit about me.

[MotherGothel28]

You know, I've made up my mind. ^^
I'll compromise.

UNVOTE: Gorny
VOTE: FrozenMagpie

Stop folding, you're making the game too easy.

But... But...
I've only got a frail, weak little flower stalk...
Even the wind itself can fold me over ;_;
I don't have any backbone like you humans do.
Please stop applying your human standards to me ;_;

This feels extremely forced, at first I just moved past it, but each time I read this it jumps out at me again and again, so worth a mention IMO.

Explanation for new players:

An example of a possible scumtell that just surfaced: why did Gorny take the posts seemingly seriously? Is he just unfamiliar with the process, or did him feeling threatened because he actually was Mafia form a contributing factor?

That scum tell sucks, but you seeing scum tells in pedestrian behaviour gets you paranoid town points.

VOTE: Gorny

I actually like this, not afraid to ruffle feathers, which is generally not where scum will want to start out this early.

@FancyPants: I, Aster, the highly paranoid and absolutely insufferable townie, demand an explanation as to why you just voted Gorny.

Again, this feels amazingly forced, it is even awkward to read. Likely this was to jab back at what he felt was a personal insult, but announcing early on anything along the lines of "I am town" is just unnecessary. I likely would have let it slide if I didn't already have another awkward post. Scum are awkward when they're new to the game or a site, I've seen it elsewhere.

Hopefully people are just busy on the weekend, what are your thoughts since you're about?

Uh, I'm not really thinking much. You and Aster have a small thing going but I don't feel like it's really indicative of anything. You could both be town or you could both be scum or you could be 1town and 1scum. If what you said earlier had been worded differently, there might not even have been a debate at all.

Pretty non-committal, how do you feel about Asters 3 point case on me?
@Gormy, just seemed eager to appease Aster, any scum leanings thus far?

The case seemed like a bit much for a response to a one sentence post regarding poor scumreads. I kind of understand where Aster is coming from with some of the points, but don't necessarily agree with point two. Why should people be worried about paranoid town points? Wouldn't being a little paranoid help in this situation? Surely some players as scum can fake being town well enough that not being paranoid would lead to quick townread. It was odd that you voted Gorny after kind of defending him, that's not something that seems normal. But I'm not so sure that scum would slip up so early or that a player with a bit of experience would vote a team member so early.

What about Xa ligha/Xalxe scumteam

Though, I'm not sure if the above was serious or not
Kind of chuckling quietly here.

It wasn't serious. I'm aware that Xalxe isn't a player

Good points here, and again someone not afraid to argue and ruffle feathers, I like it.

I also have a question, on why it says peoples roles underneath their name?
Is this a bug?

I am highly sceptical of this post. There are two possible situations:

1. He genuinely didn't know those "roles" were meaningless;
2. He did know those roles were meaningless and pretended he didn't.

In the second case, I'd definitely call scum upon this post. Whenever a human is guilty of something, it is their instinct to ask questions about things they already know to make it appear as if they don't have a clue about the situation. I'd call this a very strong scumtell, significantly beyond just "trying too hard to appear town."

However, we also have the first case to consider. Could it be true he was genuinely unaware about the function of those "roles"? Let us assume that this case is true, then there are some odd things about his post:

(Note: keep in mind that, according to his post in the sign-up thread, he has card-game mafia experience but no experience on this forum.)

• There is a "coincidence" that he voted FancyPants who is titled "goon" because he thinks FancyPants is scared of Gorny who is called "goon" as well;
• He didn't point out that FancyPants was marked as goon—is it because he didn't notice it at that time, or because of some other reason?
• Given that he has card-game mafia experience, he must know that having everyone's roles public is an absolute no-go. His reaction of "Why are ... is it a bug?" seems a bit passive for such a massive screw-up.
• Arbitrary titles under people's names are a common feature on many forums. If he has been on other (non-mafia) forums before, there are good chances he could guess what those titles represented.

Alright, none of the above is conclusive enough to show that he really knew that the titles were meaningless, but I wouldn't just blindly assume his "I really didn't know what those titles meant!" to be true.

Moreover, even if he really didn't know what the titles meant, that does not in any way prevent him from being scum and asking. Note that he asked "why our roles are under our names" and he didn't ask "what those titles meant". His way of asking suggests me that he was intentionally trying to slip a "hey I'm town" into his question.

Tl;dr:

I suspect adilm29h posted the above-quoted post with the intention to tell us "Hey I'm Town!" more than that he really wanted an answer to his question.

UNVOTE: FrozenMagpie
VOTE: adilm29h

You sure are jumping around a lot. Its beginning to feel like you're throwing accusations at everything you can find and seeing if they stick, using being helpful in your posts about facts of gameplay to make it seem like your spewing facts about the players and their alignment as well. Personally the only reason why the titles didn't bother me is because I saw that mine said ninja when I only had 1 post. This is a new forum to a majority of the people on this board, so it is not abnormal for us to be asking questions. Adilm didn't say "I vote FancyPants because it clearly says Goon under his name!" He did make a vote without a reason, which is sus on it's own, but instead you use his newbie question to form a case? Feels slimy to me.

@aster, regarding your 61.....


We are in a newbie game after all. While it is possible that your #2 scenario is possible and adlim does know what those "roles" are... since this is his first game on site, for the moment, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of a doubt and assume that your #1 scenario is more likely the case.

Will have to wait and see how things progress...

This however feels very natural (and it's not Captain O'Neill staring at me), all of his posts to far have fallen under the natural and comfortable category, no awkward/weak reasoning used to make a huge case, and easy defense of what he sees as innocent.

So far I have:

Solid town base - MotherGothel (me), Gorny
Town lean so far - FancyPants, FrozenMagpie

Need more - Adilm, Xa lighta, Draynth

Scummy - GreyICE, Aster