In post 423, Prism wrote:Just a regular "Don't be antitown as town!" and then move along.
This is a good point.
In post 424, Prism wrote:I liked his inquisition of Nacho, even as town Nacho unintentionally pulled some bullshit, and now he's just frustrated because of dumb shit like Mastina typing 2 massive walls that just say "He just doesn't feel like Spiffeh town. I feel it. This is Spiffeh scum. I don't know. I feel it." She might be right, but if she's wrong of course Spiffeh is going to think to himself "This is dumb shit and I'm pissed I have to deal with it, especially after that Nacho bullshit earlier"
I don't think this frustration is necessarily alignment indicative - it's reasonable that he'd be frustrated by the situation as either alignment and thus respond in kind. I think he'd probably be less likely to be as aggressive towards us as he was in places like the "Tammy is scum for not posting in 36 hours" - think town is significantly more likely to jump the gun as scum there since assuming that he'd score a mislynch on us is a pretty weird assumption to make and 1v1ing with someone you're not really likely to beat is an awkward as shit situation in general.
~ Please try to avoid ableism. I'm not going to be making this comment on every post because that would be beyond annoying for you guys but "dumb" and "
lame
" are always going to be redacted if I catch them; there's nothing bad about being unable to speak or unable to walk in some way so using terms that describe those conditions to characterize something as bad is offensive in the same way that using "gay" as "bad" is offensive. Thanks! <3 ~
Carried the weight of erechtheion's marble
Thousands of years while she held her head high
Sisters alone with their burdens unspeaking
Carried the weight of erect
Six caryatids ashamed by their brethren
Standing together but each one alone
Weathered millennia of pity eroding
Six caryatids ashamed
In post 736, Caryatid wrote:I want to talk about the picture I drew too, and I drew it before last night's catchup so it doesn't have any of the stuff I sorta-liked yet. but the grey is this underlying apathy and disdain for everybody when it's too early to be feeling that way and the red is simmering anger that seems out of place. The pink flower is trying to fluff post but there's this yucky dripping stuff and unpleasant swirling and it just encapsulates his "I'm going to try to sew toxicity and reap apathy" playstyle which I think is more likely to come from scum than not.
The emotional stuff is why I mentioned that I thought that he lost his cool from his earlier days; one of the things that tends to make me dig deeper in a scumread sort of irrationally is when it seems like people are lashing out at others just so that other people will leave them alone and I've felt pretty strongly in my last few interactions with Spiffeh as town that he's been lashing out prematurely and not really caring about the responses that he's getting recently. I felt that again with his early push in response to me putting him below the evil smiley (readslists aren't necessarily going to be in order, him being at the bottom of a scumlist isn't really any different being at the bottom of a sortlist if I don't feel strongly at all about any of those names) and I have trouble reading his tone in stuff like "you're all bad" as serious or not as an immediate response to a wagon that's generated on him for not doing much yet when he knows he hasn't done much yet.
Tammy usually has much less trouble parsing through that sort of stuff than I do, but I think the frustrations she expressed to me earlier were not of the alignment indicative kind and I'm hoping that engaging him on his Ginngie and camn concerns will lead more productive interactions than we've had in the past.
In post 736, Caryatid wrote:It worries me that it took him that long to find his footing though. 19 pages. 3 days.
I don't think this should be a point of worry; sometimes it takes a while to find things you feel good talking about, and sometimes it just doesn't.
In post 736, Caryatid wrote:And it feels like he's accusing Ginngie of doing the same thing he's doing (taking potshots) and I know hypocrisy isn't a scumtell but there is a tactical use for hypocrisy where you accuse someone of what you're doing and then people can't call you on what you're doing because they'd just be parroting your words back to you and in people's minds it won't sound like an original point and I think Spiffeh knows it's scummy as shit to do nothing and snipe at people because he's been doing nothing and sniping at people.
This is pretty similar to a point that Tammy brought up with me earlier and I definitely agree that it's weird that he's so bothered by Ginngie doing a similar thing to what he's been doing; she also had concerns with him being comfortable his play being characterized as "badmouthing people" instead of trying to read people, and I think that the way he kind of took potshots at us and called it "engaging with us" and accused us of not engaging with him when we should have been was pretty weird but maybe not alignment indicative.
In post 736, Caryatid wrote:so he was "good enough for page 2" and then I focused elsewhere and stopped paying attention to him.
I guess the point that bothered me the most is how quickly the read when from a "high spot in the readslist" to "someone I'm comfortable with voting", but that's not really fair at all considering how nebulous your reads were at that time (which is understandable based on how early the readslist happened); also don't see any particular scum motivation for you swapping your read as quickly as you did there.
In post 425, camn wrote:I don't like the.. like fake "I have something to do.. but I am waiting for CERTAIN CONDITIONS" thing.
What is that? And then the conditions... it's nothing game-related, but just 'lemme hear from Tammy and TTH'?
Its more like- Im gonna lurk like crazy, and hopefully soft some nonsense so I can get away with it for a while.
I thought that this was a good point to bring up as well.
I also think "I'm going to do nothing" is a counter-intuitive approach to being hyped to play with people that you respect is town - whenever I'm excited about working with someone (and I have time to do so), I'm normally
more
aggressive, not less aggressive - means that they'll be compelled to interact with me which means I'll be able to read them better, and it means that I'll form a view of the gamestate and I can see how these people I respect feel about the points that I'm picking up on.
In that situation and the Ginngie "I'm gonna vote myself to read people!!" situation, you both had a reason to do what you were doing (you thought it would help you read the game better). I don't understand why Spiffeh thinks that holding off on doing anything seriously will help him sort Tammy or TTH better.
In post 736, Caryatid wrote:I want to talk about the picture I drew too, and I drew it before last night's catchup so it doesn't have any of the stuff I sorta-liked yet. but the grey is this underlying apathy and disdain for everybody when it's too early to be feeling that way and the red is simmering anger that seems out of place. The pink flower is trying to fluff post but there's this yucky dripping stuff and unpleasant swirling and it just encapsulates his "I'm going to try to sew toxicity and reap apathy" playstyle which I think is more likely to come from scum than not.
The emotional stuff is why I mentioned that I thought that he lost his cool from his earlier days; one of the things that tends to make me dig deeper in a scumread sort of irrationally is when it seems like people are lashing out at others just so that other people will leave them alone and I've felt pretty strongly in my last few interactions with Spiffeh as town that he's been lashing out prematurely and not really caring about the responses that he's getting recently. I felt that again with his early push in response to me putting him below the evil smiley (readslists aren't necessarily going to be in order, him being at the bottom of a scumlist isn't really any different being at the bottom of a sortlist if I don't feel strongly at all about any of those names) and I have trouble reading his tone in stuff like "you're all bad" as serious or not as an immediate response to a wagon that's generated on him for not doing much yet when he knows he hasn't done much yet.
Tammy usually has much less trouble parsing through that sort of stuff than I do, but I think the frustrations she expressed to me earlier were not of the alignment indicative kind and I'm hoping that engaging him on his Ginngie and camn concerns will lead more productive interactions than we've had in the past.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here; trying to think up a substitution for the word we can't say from my post took up a lot of language spoons because I'm #actuallydisabled so I'm gonna try to echo it back at you and you tell me if I missed something?
You are saying that you think that Spiffeh is more angry (angerable?) than he used to be; he used to be calmer. You often scumread people who are behaving like Spiffeh is now, attacking other people to get them off his back. But you've seen Spiffeh lash out like this as town recently, lash out the way he did in response to your readslist. It's hard to tell whether he's trolling or being serious when he calls people bad for wagonning him when he hasn't done anything town yet. You want to sheep Tammy on her read because you think she'll parse it better, but you think right now she's more frustrated than having a confident read so you hope once you hear him out about Ginnie and camn, you'll have a clearer picture.
Carried the weight of erechtheion's marble
Thousands of years while she held her head high
Sisters alone with their burdens unspeaking
Carried the weight of erect
Six caryatids ashamed by their brethren
Standing together but each one alone
Weathered millennia of pity eroding
Six caryatids ashamed
The intent behind my post was to let you know that the paragraph about the emotional stuff from Spiffeh in particular resonated with me and I completely see where you're coming from, but I don't think it's alignment indicative for him. I do plan on letting Tammy read him, but our early talks made it seem like she was picking up on that same emotional stuff we are so I didn't feel confident in her bad feelings when she talked to me about them. I have high hopes for our future interactions over Ginngie/Camn reads because I think there's less reason for Spiffeh to get frustrated when talking to me about them, and so I'm hoping I can get a read on him where I don't have to check bias nearly as often.
In post 490, Spiffeh wrote:Again I will reiterate that Tammy's level of engagement will be the easiest way for me to sort Imperium.
I can't remember if I addressed this the other night when I was a bit tipsy, but this isn't even close to an accurate tell and hasn't been for at least a year or so. There's a reason you don't see me signed up in any games by myself right now, and there's a reason I'm hydraing with nacho in particular. I've been burnt out on mafia, and in a state of absolutely hating mafia off and on, for a while now as well as being busy in real life. I turned down someone who asked me to switch up a hydra in this game because in a hydra with nacho I can go absent for a week or so at a time and not feel guilty while anyone else I'd have to put in work I might not be able to do.
In post 736, Caryatid wrote:so he was "good enough for page 2" and then I focused elsewhere and stopped paying attention to him.
I guess the point that bothered me the most is how quickly the read when from a "high spot in the readslist" to "someone I'm comfortable with voting", but that's not really fair at all considering how nebulous your reads were at that time (which is understandable based on how early the readslist happened); also don't see any particular scum motivation for you swapping your read as quickly as you did there.
Yeah, it was page 6. I was just happy to have reads. I don't mind discarding early reads if I change my mind and I like early wagons.
The intent behind my post was to let you know that the paragraph about the emotional stuff from Spiffeh in particular resonated with me and I completely see where you're coming from, but I don't think it's alignment indicative for him. I do plan on letting Tammy read him, but our early talks made it seem like she was picking up on that same emotional stuff we are so I didn't feel confident in her bad feelings when she talked to me about them. I have high hopes for our future interactions over Ginngie/Camn reads because I think there's less reason for Spiffeh to get frustrated when talking to me about them, and so I'm hoping I can get a read on him where I don't have to check bias nearly as often.
Does that make sense?
Yeah that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for explaining it to me. I think you're right that trying to talk with him about a third party is likely to be less frustrating for both sides.
Carried the weight of erechtheion's marble
Thousands of years while she held her head high
Sisters alone with their burdens unspeaking
Carried the weight of erect
Six caryatids ashamed by their brethren
Standing together but each one alone
Weathered millennia of pity eroding
Six caryatids ashamed
Weird question incoming because I don't actually know what I'm trying to say here, but why do you feel so "going through the motions" this game? Your later posts at a skim look better than your earlier ones in that they seem more natural (although I'd still expect you to interact me instead of ignore me even if you didn't actually plan on sorting me and don't think that you think me/Tammy are hard enough reads where you wouldn't bother sorting us until we died), and I guess my major concern with your slot might be completely unfair but every post you made in Buttersnap Shitfuckery was an absolute joy to read (and, in review, you had posts like your 415 where it seemed like you were earnestly engaging someone despite not approaching the game seriously) and here your posts seem more boring and somehow less substantive? Am I just being completely and totally unfair here?
In post 271, MaxwellPuckett wrote:Ahsokas posting hasn't improved but w the consistent weirdness im not sure if i find it AI anymore
In post 450, MaxwellPuckett wrote:
By consistent weirdness i meant Ahsokas tone being a little off and the general sense of fish-out-of-water from her. But idk I might be over that, I still dont like her posting. Like 245, and just not getting the sense she cares about anything thats going on
Max, could you spend a little more time talking about your Ahsoka read here? I get the sense that you've thought a decent a bit about it but that the depth in the read isn't actually making it into the thread; why did Ahsoka strike you as off initially, why did her continuing to demonstrate those traits lead to a scumread and why did you go from "her feeling like a fish out of water" to "she doesn't care about anything going on" - both of these things sound like general disengagent to me so I'd like you to be a little clearer about what they mean to you if possible.
In post 453, Spiffeh wrote:I explained why I was scum reading Imperium, you are welcome to give your thoughts on that.
I guess that reason doesn't really hold up now, I can buy that Nacho left me in a sort pile rather than a scum pile.
But the fact that you're discrediting the read as OMGUS without acknowledging my reasons behind it either makes you bad or scum, neither of which are acceptable.
Also, can you go into detail on why you're scum reading me? From what I've read you've opted to take potshots on the sidelines (mostly having to do with my Imperium read) rather than actually engage with me if your problem is that I'm "doing nothing". It feels to me that your "scum read" on me is coming more from a place that wants to appease/buddy mastina instead of solve the game. And since getting in her good graces was literally the only thing you tried to do as scum in Biochemistry that doesn't make me feel very good.
You're right that Gin's interactions with you up to this point can be characterized as taking potshots on the sidelines, but I don't think that's an unreasonable interaction when it was a read that mastina was taking point on/felt the strongest about. I don't think the potshots individually were unreasonable; her OMGUS observation was fine and the judge judy gif in response to you scumreading us when an eye roll directed at someone attacking one of her top townreads.
I think your "she's trying to buddy mastina" point is shallow - she loves playing with mastina so when mastina is playing the same game as her she tends to buddy her regardless of alignment - why are her interactions here "Ginngie trying to buddy" as opposed to "Ginngie playing with a friend"? I think this is a pretty weak point in general.
I think that your "you can't call the read OMGUS unless you talk about the reasons behind it" point is strange. Ginngie pointed out that the only read you gave all game was a scumread on us because of our (perceived) scumread on you, which isn't inaccurate at all - why did she have to do anything more than point out something that she saw?
In post 464, Spiffeh wrote:Uh, if I don't have anything to say about someone, I'm not gonna say it. As you should know from Biochemistry, I am perfectly capable of creating empty content and asking filler questions that look good as scum. I have no reason to do that as town.
This is the shit I'm talking about. If you'd like something from me, ask me specifically what you want me to talk about. I've only talked about Imperium because they're the only ones that have really done anything that pinged me (until now).
You can keep sitting pretty on my wagon without doing anything proactive to actually read me, or you can maybe ask me questions that will help you cement your read on me one way or another.
This just seems excessively obstinate. It's page 19, it's not incredibly unreasonable to assume that you have thoughts beyond "I think that Imperium is scum because Nacho had me on the bottom of his scumlist and didn't engage me", and railing against Ginngie for her not being specific enough in her requests when she just got done asking you for something (she's not interested in your thoughts on anyone in particular, she just wants to see what else you're thinking about) is again unreasonable. You're right that, at that point, all Ginngie was doing was chilling on your wagon, but the reason she was doing so seemed to be to pressure you into doing something (which was a stance that you didn't find unreasonable at all in 240).
I understand the intent behind making a push like this - you're trying to read people who are pushing your wagon - but it's causing this situation where people are voting you for not doing them and you're pushing them for not explaining their read on you good enough and that leaves me trying to parse weird interactions like this one.
So I just got through the Spiffeh/Gin slap fight and ugh. I've also figured out why I'm mixing people up, it's because I'm extremely tired and I've failen asleep on my keyboard now twice, so there's probably some stuff I'm gonna have to go back and read again but i'll deal with that later.
Spiffeh if you're town here I think that you're making the game all about yourself. Well you're doing that regardless of your alignment, but if town you're doing the game a huge disservice. This is the kind of thing that made it harder for me to read you in Gay Mafia and I don't remember you doing before and is where I think I've been having a more difficult time in reading you. (You said earlier that you always say people are bad, I don't remember you doing that and that and telling people they are bad at mafia are things that I've in particular come to have absolutely no tolerance for because it feels like people are more interested in trying to tear each other down than play mafia and figure things out. It's reads posturey to me and it reads fake and it makes you harder to read because it's annoying and when I'm particular annoyed by people feeling fake I have a harder time reading them.)
Anyway, if you're town here your reads are being tainted because how dare people question or suspect you, but in your argument with Gin you literally listened to nothing she said. You made the entire argument about a way to explain Gin's behavior towards you in relation to mastina when maybe Gin just scum reads you and finds problems with your play. You guys just ended up talking past each other without paying attention to what the other is saying.
You're trying to say that Gin would try to buddy mastin by doing overtly buddying things to get Mastina to town read her and that's why she's doing all those things in regards to you.
But that doesn't make any sense and you're not listening to what she's saying in return.
She accurately pointed out that Mastin didn't actually have a town read on Gin for anything in the Biochemistry game but you're Gin and I like you. She admitted to not reading the game. Gin would buddy mastin if she's town too, so the buddying thing isn't alignment indicative. You're ignoring though the other times that when mastin read the game, she was caught immediately. that mastin is actually decent at reading Gin and that's something that Gin has to deal with. And you're ignoring that point because if you pay attention to what is happening and what has happened in the past, you might see what Gin is trying to say.
My town read on Gin is meta based. She's behaving just like she did in Dragonball Z one and girls girls one as town and nothing like she behaved in for us as scum. In the town games, she jumped the gun in rvs and attacks random things and acts a bit obtuse. For instance, Nacho was scum reading Maria for feeling flat and Gin jumped all over that because what does flat mean and how is it alignment indicative. (I scum read her for tone in this one because I thought it was fake.) In girls girls there was a similar very aggressive jumping in and kinda being messy. So when she attacked Prism early game and then had that really obtuse post where she couldn't understand what camn was saying between care and aware concerning the playerlist, that looked just like town Gin. In For Us, Gin replaced into a scum slot and tried to kinda interact with Mastin and Nacho but it came off so fake. She white knighted Mastin, who scum read her immediately, and then literally slinked away when we started pressing her. Also, I think the post where she declared she was confirmed town when she saw that both mastin and nacho town read her looked really town. I did not get the sense in For Us that she'd be really ballsy or cheeky like that as scum. I think her reaction would be different.
In post 474, MaxwellPuckett wrote:Ginngie isnt scumhunting but she IS having a grand old time in the thread and i can appreciate that
It doesnt say anything abt her alignment besides her having fun ":3"
Lots of "woo im being townread"
The posts that are actually hunting are super duper bland
I don't really think that it's accurate to say that she "isn't scumhunting" (and I kind of like you saying that she isn't scumhunting when she's done objectively more than you have); you're right that she doesn't have a lot of posts that say "X is town/scum and this is why" but interactions like Ginngie's early bout with Prism or talking about KMD why she thought that the way it all unfolded was town or the interaction with camn or trying to convince mastina why Cary was a townread of hers are most definitely scumhunting and all come before this point.
The having fun and "woo I'm being townread posts" bits are important to me because she just got out of a game where she got slam dunked as soon as she replaced in; it's difficult as scum to post like that around people who you think can read you very very well; most people tend to feel nervous, and that makes them much more cautious.
In post 474, MaxwellPuckett wrote:Self vote is whatever but this is such an overexplanation, also i think i learned something about myself today because ginngie posts with the kind of reckless abandon i imagine i would as scum in this year 2017
I can understand why you dislike this quote; definitely seems fake as fuck.
In post 474, MaxwellPuckett wrote:"its obvious im doing my own thing" does not go with "I did something purposefully scummy to get a wagon on me and analyze it"
In post 474, MaxwellPuckett wrote:Town could actually do this one where she pops in to sprinkle some salt in that papercut but in the context of everything else its just another reason why Ginngie is scum having a giggle
This is pretty similar to why Spiffeh thinks that Ginngie is scum and something that I think has to do much more with playstyle than alignment. I don't think that it's scummy to switch between aggressively pushing something and taking the sidelines on it; I do the same pretty frequently and again it's far more of a playstyle thing than an alignment thing. I'm not sure how to refute this point in a satisfactory way without using meta, though.
So Anti told me who he thinks Ashoka is and, based on the confluence of factors he cited to arrive at his conclusion, I think it's a reasonable guess and if he's correct it would strengthen the evidence that the slot is scum. However, I think he did the right thing by not outing his guess as it wouldn't have been respectful to Ashoka's privacy and desire to escape meta. As such, we will not discuss this topic further and we'll drop the claim to the meta tell.
Besides, we think the Ashoka case, outlined in Antihero's Post 771, Spiffeh's Post 926, and Caryatid's Post 978, has enough merit to stand on its own without meta.
