Mini 1942 - Switchboard 2 [Game Over]

[Keychain]

Hiya Chick!

VOTE: Chickadee

[Keychain]

I'm not going to claim my priority just yet. I'd rather hash it out first.
The way mozamis jumped to claim before Rat had explained in full was suspicious, though - especially following up with the assertion that a quick response means town, regardless of what was said.

The analyst sees EVERYTHING (regarding the switches anyway).
By claiming our priorities now, scum has no opportunity to lie.
That means scummy toggle behavior (i;e switching off a claimed JK) cannot be done anonymously. Scum then has to choose between trying to give them a night advantage, or not being found out immediately.

As I understand it, if multiple people target a switch, the analyst will only find out what the last person did. It looks like they're given the final state of the switch, not the specific action of each player to target it. It's slightly less information than it sounds like you're suggesting, or am I wrong here?

My switch number is higher than RadRat. Willing to reveal it in full later.

This is a really odd middle ground to take. Why do you think this semi-claim is the best course of action right now, instead of just claiming your priority number or refusing?

[Keychain]

Would it be better to instead come up with a rating system if we think knowing the toggling numbers is worthwhile? like high. mid. low.

1-4 high
58 mid
9 - 13 low

That seems like it would give scum the advantage of knowing who they need to get out of the way, but without giving the analyst the ability to know exactly who is doing what by being able to identify priority numbers as particular players. Like... defeating the point of the strategy.



Also I think I'm mixed up. I thought having a high priority number (eg. 1, 2) would mean that the action would be executed first in a sequence, and would therefore be less valuable?
Though I suppose it makes more sense for it to be "in any group of actions, the highest priority one is used".

[Keychain]

Yeah, I don't know why I automatically jumped to thinking they would be executed in order. Unmixing myself now. Thanks.

@Moz What about suggesting a mass claim makes you think Radrat is town?

it's so unlikely to come from scum. sure, really clever/confident/gambity scum might try it, but it's really stickin gyour neck out early on, which MOST scum avoid. Plus in this specific case, he seems like he is thinking about the game, "game solving" etc
All town stuff.

Why do you feel it's unlikely to come from scum? The priority ranking seems like something they would like to know about. And the risk vs. reward is high enough at the beginning of the game to warrant that kind of action from scum.

I'm not saying realeo is scum

, just that it's not something to town read him for.

(bolding mine)

Did you mean Rat? He's the one who proposed the strategy.

too many R's

[Keychain]

So why do you think that scum would potentially propose a priority massclaim?

It sounds like you think the strategy would give scum an advantage in some way, or at least wouldn't disadvantage them - in which case, I'd have expected you to point that out, as a reason why we shouldn't be claiming.

[Keychain]

glad I'm not the only one who got confused!

[Keychain]

"jumped" is a scummy, misreppy way of putting it. I in fact i had qualms, as is quite obvious if you look back over it.

I did look back over it. Here are the posts, from Rat's proposition through to you claiming:

I'm gonna pass on the RV part of RVS and instead make.... A proposition.

I believe we should massclaim our priorities. That way the Switchboard Analyst can know who's doing the shenanigans out there.

Mine is 8.

instinctively, i'm against that. mass claims give scum even more info.

tho mayb ein this case it doesnt matter?

i'm priority 4

This is what felt like a jump to me. You were instinctively against it (I assume this is what you mean by qualms?), you didn't really come up with any reasons to

do

it, then suddenly you were doing it anyway. Within a few minutes.

If she is town, and she can point herself in the right direction, she'll be great. She really has potential.

<3

[Keychain]

votes off chick please shes town.

Gladly!

VOTE: mozamis

Why did Chick going "she's new and plays like this" make you give up pressuring me?


For reference, since it might not be clear what I mean: saying that a vote is for pressure makes it pretty ineffectual for that purpose, so I considered your 72 to be giving up.

Especially followed by the change in focus to defending Chick instead of continuing to pressure me after my response.

[Keychain]

Why did Chick going "she's new and plays like this" make you give up pressuring me?

er she didnt i'm still voting you.
i think?

Yeah you were. But a vote with no push behind it does not equal pressure. You dropped the push, therefore no pressure.

If this is the case then why would you want to stifle such discussion?

and i think this was slightly scummy. she obviously had discussed it ALOT ,and was saying ,aybe time to move on. Your language is "shady".

VOTE MJOLLNIR

What is this "shade" thing? Why is it always in quote marks? I didn't get it when you accused me of it, and I don't really get it now.

Why the hell would you say aloud what the optimal move would be for scum to make when they are unorganized right now to actually do anything strategic. Like that's just disarming a trap.

I'm sorry?
If there is an optimal move for scum in this strategy that would have them coming out ahead, then it needs to be said so that we can consider it and potentially not go through with it. For something like massclaim we need to think about what might happen in a worst case scenario, not just hope it doesn't happen.
If town thinks of it, scum can think of it.

Like you just went "oh guys why did you point out the problem with this strategy what an anti-town thing to do!"
???

[Keychain]

Thanks moz. I know that meaning, I thought it was a slightly different use here.

I repeat @Key, I was viewing that thinking scum did not have day talk. With that view, it's kinda stupid to bring that up. Knowing now that they have day talk and can collaborate, not so stupid. There's a big difference between the two.

Your reaction makes no sense, with or without daytalk.
"Hey guys let's massclaim"
"But look scum could do this thing and screw us over"
"WHY WOULD YOU SAY THAT"

When we're talking about implementing a strategy, we

need

people to point out the problems, because we still have the option of not doing it. That's why we're talking about it instead of doing it immediately.


PEdit: 167 is on point.

[Keychain]

VOTE: Aubrey

[Keychain]

Chick
are you caught up

[Keychain]

@Mod: V/LA until Monday.

@Key: I may be missing something, but I really don't see how that reaction makes sense if scum didn't have daytalk, it's highly unlikely each member of the team would have independently came up with the same mathematical conclusion that Realeo did.

It seems my reasoning is different to Rat's, though we arrived at the same conclusion.

We don't know how organised scum is or how skilled they are or whether they're telepathic. To me it's irrelevant. If there's a possible way scum could mess with the strategy, we need to consider the worst case scenario of them doing it and veto the plan if it gives them a significant edge.

Hiding a potential opportunity for scum to get an advantage, and so letting a flawed strategy go ahead, is a

terrible

idea.

You've clearly played long enough to know someone posting once or twice a day is considered an active player vs a typical player who will let 24 to 48 hrs pass by easy and often.

I'd like to know why a player who posts once a day is active, but a player who frequently lets 24 hours pass in between posts is not

[Keychain]

@Aubrey 210: It was a joke about how days are 24 hours long, so a player who posts every 24 hours is posting once a day but you referred to them as different. I apologise.

Moza, Keychain is fairly new. She's finding her bearings. I still have her as null, but I really think we need to give her time to develop to better read her.

My last experience playing with her seems similar to the experience you're having now. If she is town, and she can point herself in the right direction, she'll be great. She really has potential. If she's scum, I think we'll see it fairly soon.

This is townChick through and through.

Why? Do you think she wouldn't buddy as scum?

The discussuon is already tabled my darling

ahahahaha

I'll get back to you on Innocent and Formerfish

Yeah, all three of those are Town.

Okay where on earth did these townreads come from?

This is a really odd middle ground to take. W

again, i dont like this, it looks like "shade".
The guy clearly wasnt quite sure what to do, which seems reasonable in a CONFUSING AS HELL game like this lol

Yeah, Keychain can get a vote

VOTE KEYCHAIN

this is actually the worst vote in game

You've said this twice now. Why is it a bad vote?

why not just call me scum instead of "interesting progression". THAT's shade.

Hey I think I got it now - shade is implying someone is scum without directly saying it?

I like this mozamis wagon, by the way.
Accusing people of either being bad players or scum for pointing out his inconsistencies is meh. (am I doing shade properly moz?)


But right now:

VOTE: Allomancer

Looking at their ISO, I don't think any of their posts have made any actual contribution to the game.
The daytalk thing and vote on Realeo in 234 especially felt like it could have been faked by scum - if they missed that town had actually self-corrected, they would absolutely want to take that misunderstanding as far as possible.
And 248 - "we shouldn't do this... but I want to... but we really shouldn't!" What a useful post! Straight out of a YA romance! More seriously, it pays lip service to the idea of scumhunting instead of setup spec, but does none.

Allomancer, could you tell me who you think is most likely scum and most likely town right now? Like as of this point in the game?

[Keychain]

Why? Do you think she wouldn't buddy as scum?

Why would she pick you to buddy?

Okay where on earth did these townreads come from?

Because I bleed town, youll see.

Do you "bleed town" by answering questions with questions to avoid giving a straightforward response?
In answer: she was given the opportunity, and I'm a little bit twitchy about buddying because it keeps happening to me.

However you didn't actually answer me - what about Chickadee makes you think that defending me is a town action on her part?

He's still prob town tho. If we need an end dfay lurker lynch though, he could be a candidate, since he's a borderline troll.

?
If we need an end of day "lurker" lynch... we could lynch someone who is probably town... because you don't like how they play. And they also happen to be pushing you. This is such a scummy thing to say.

if moz flips town, actually powerlynch me tomorrow.

I agree with most of what you've been saying but this is just terrible.
Scum knows a town would never do this without question, so they have nothing to lose from offering. A townie

shouldn't

be offering, since that just results in two mislynches.

Yes yes we get it. Aubrey is a complete and utter dumbass. No need to repeat what the world already knows.

Egads man! This is why I tried to make a joke, to try and make you smile! It's not enjoyable to watch someone verbally beat themselves up, whether it's scum trying to brush it under the rug or town frustrated with themselves. Either way - please stop.

[Keychain]

it's like the scoratci method. I chuc kout strong reads, see how poeple react, then either withdrawthem or stick with them.

Um.
I'm not an expert but this is not the Socratic method. At all. I'm pretty sure the Socratic method is teaching by asking questions to develop the learner's critical thinking. I don't think it's applicable here in the slightest.

you gonna engage in rational debate with me and change your mind, or just gonna vote park/mindlessly tunnell/be a dick all game?

I find that trying to convince your scumread that they're scum is pretty futile - why do you want Nos to engage with you?

[Keychain]

VOTE: Allomancer

Why is this? I just went through your ISO and I don't think you mentioned them a single time.

But regarding Fitz's last post, I can say there is something you are not considering that I don't feel comfortable bringing to the attention of the mafia team that you are overlooking. I'll be happy to share it post game, but I don't want to tell scum their optimal play.

Ughhhh. This sounds incredibly calculated and trying to please after the whole thing about whether it's anti-town or not to publicly state the flaws in a plan.
Plus I'm very aware that if you don't say what the problem you've identified is, it's too easy for scum to look at a protown strategy and be like "oh no we can't do that for unspecified reasons", and veto the plan with no explanation given whatsoever.

Realeo sounded genuine when he pointed out the flaws in whatever claiming strategy was being discussed at the time. This sounds much more artificial.

[Keychain]

???

??????

You don't need to be prodded to post!

[Keychain]

This is actually correct.

A replacement is still scum.

They have the same role as formerfish.

Can you explain why you felt the need to include the bolded sentence? Do you scumread the Fish slot?

Allomancer

you are just coasting by right now doing the bare minimum, you've put a lazy vote on an easy target, you haven't said you're not reading through and you're reacting to recent posts so I assume you are paying attention to the game yet you have given basically no insight into anything right now. This kind of active lurking is something I don't like one little bit (it's very different to Nosferatu as at least she is honest that she is actively apathetic right now).

I am considering voting for you, but I want to hear your top three townreads and your top three scumreads first, and I want reasoning with each please.

(quote has been edited to take into account Mjoll's correction in 412)

This is a good question from Mjollnir and I've been waiting for you to reappear and answer it. Please.

[Keychain]

Welcome Flubbernugget!

VOTE: allo

I think this is L-1.

[Keychain]

@Allo: Thank you for that clarification. Can you please respond to Mjoll's 410 now?

[Keychain]

Claim: 1-shot BP

Happy now?

UNVOTE:
Surprising that neither Aubrey nor Nos have unvoted at a claim. If there's a CC, it's easy enough to put a vote back on.

You're sounding quite petulant there, Allo. Do you believe that you shouldn't have been brought to L-1?

Why have you still not given any reads?


I'm going to have to read through the game again, but I think moz is probably my next vote.

[Keychain]

I've been gone for two days and I'm so sorry for that. I think if there was more time I'd go after Aubrey, after reading through his ISO, but I've just left it too long. I apologise

Someone ust hammer, you guys are idiots/inexperienced/kids.

I once got told by a scum partner that the best way to get a quick and easy townread was to pitch a fit.

I'm going to have to read through the game again, but I think moz is probably my next vote.

This still stands. I think moz is more likely scum than Nos.


Does anybody have any urgent reasons why I shouldn't hammer? Apart from wanting it to be a page bottom?

[Keychain]

I give up on reading Keychain.

?

[Keychain]

I actually find you quite funny/amusing.

I agree with this.

NEVR LYNCH MOLLIGNER

lol that's bad spelling

NEVER LYCNH ,MOJLOOIGERNGERGLOOIGNER

[Keychain]

It's brilliant but I don't you can sig ongoing games

Unfortunately I'm not joining your Nos wagon, sorry.

In fact now that I think about it, so far not a single scum has been lynched so far in any game while I've still been alive

I'm currently quite tired so I may be misreading this but are you calling yourself some kind of unlucky charm?

[Keychain]

It's brilliant but I don't

think

you can sig ongoing games

EBWOP, missed a word sorry.


Yeah don't be that guy that needs to be dead before scum can be found. If symptoms persist you should definitely go see your local witch doctor

[Keychain]

Realeo and Mjoll are more town, RadRat is up there as well. Aubrey, yourself and Chickadee actually are my picks for scum at the moment.

Key couldnt be more bland if he tried.

I probably could. I've been feeling rather like the life has been sucked out of me recently though.

[Keychain]

The reluctance of a hammer on a "VT" claim with 27 hrs to the deadline has me feeling good about this flip.

How is this indicative of a scum flip?

[Keychain]

if people just pile on now, we can quick lynch his arse!

I don't trust you enough for that. Sorry.

replace out? or is this Ate?

It's an explanation. It will be temporary so I'm not going to replace out over it.

What the actual heck

[Keychain]

someone should hammer me now just for comic timing lol

That reminds me - what is with all the fuss about getting the hammer over and done with? Fitz is right, we're not really in danger of a no lynch, and I don't particularly want to cut off discussion early.

[Keychain]

Okay. People seemed to have stopped talking now.

VOTE: mozamis

[Keychain]

Welcome LUV!

Haven't read anything but I'm pretty sad girlfriend died.

Her death immediately tells me that she was either really on point this game or scum are trying to frame me.

Why do you think a Chick kill would be to frame you?

[Keychain]

@LUV: The reason I ask about the framing is because your replacing in was announced at daystart, not during the night. I'd find it pretty unlikely that the kill was an attempt to frame you unless scum got that information separately.
Throwing it out like that on arrival makes me actually lean the other way, into suspecting you are scum who replaced in during the night but didn't realise that town didn't know.

Regarding Fitz: I'd suggest you read 369 and 452 (catch ups) and 735 and 738 (explaining last minute vote on Chickadee). Unless you're really interested in setup discussion, in which case you should read the first part of his ISO.

He's rather skated under my radar for the most part. However on reread part of his reasoning for the vote on Chickadee was pretty sketchy:

She's had me, Allo, and you in her suspects for a good portion of the game (prior to Allo's claim). I've town read you. I'm town. I was tr'ing Allo prior to his claim. So that's the differences I find her suspect for.

He says he finds her suspicious for scumreading his townreads, but according to his readslist he was townreading the vast majority of the playerlist (everyone except Chick, moz and Flubbernugget). He also includes Allo as a townread, though it was a very recent change.


@Nos:

As much as it sucks to say it, it's pretty unlikely more than one scum was off that moz wagon. I'm hesitant to say that it was Allo simply because I was similarly confident in moz being scum.

I'm not sure what you mean by 795, but it sounded like you were still considering Allo as scum today.

[Keychain]

@KC:

I received my role PM during the night so I assume everyone was informed I had replaced in.

Lil Uzi Vert replaces Raya36.

Seems an odd assumption given that it was declared at daystart, but I'll accept it for now.
Also you are the first person to refer to me as KC! Had to check the playerlist the first time to see who you were talking about.

My issue with Fitz is that I tend to not only scum read those style of catch-up posts but I just can't bother to read the way he does it. They just bore me. I'm willing to trust someone's read there for the time being until I absolutely have to read his ISO.

Is Fitz the only player who you're putting off reading?
Given that you just said that you thought Chick was possibly spot on with her reads, I'm surprised you're not looking into someone she said was in her lynchpool.

[Keychain]

@Nos:

As much as it sucks to say it, it's pretty unlikely more than one scum was off that moz wagon. I'm hesitant to say that it was Allo simply because I was similarly confident in moz being scum.

I'm not sure what you mean by 795, but it sounded like you were still considering Allo as scum today.

I'm not sure how to respond to this post.

I'm confused. Please respond by helping me clear up my confusion.

Sequence of events:

As much as it sucks to say it, it's pretty unlikely more than one scum was off that moz wagon. I'm hesitant to say that it was Allo simply because I was similarly confident in moz being scum.

Sounded like you still thought Allo was scum though he's an unCCed BP.

Isn't Alo BP? Am I missing something?

Isn't Alo BP? Am I missing something?

Yes, I am

Realeo and Allo (...kind of) both pointed this out.

Flipped town with garbage reads doesn't say much

as of yesterday

You made a post where you included two random quotes. I thought you were trying to say that these were your reads as of

yesterday

.

I'm not sure what you mean by 795, but it sounded like you were still considering Allo as scum today.

Hence this post. Am I making a bad assumption somewhere?

[Keychain]

Realeo, I'm sorry you're being ignored. Sometimes I have difficulty understanding you. I did see you baiting for a response today.

But I also found that when I did ask about something D1 I found odd, you decided to withhold rather than answer.

I give up on reading Keychain.

?

I prefer to keep my reasoning later. I still need to adapt to you.

So I figured I'd watch and wait with you and see how things went. You say you're a meticulous player but I've never played with you before, I have no baseline. But sure. Why do you have an unexplained townread on Aubrey, even though you consider that out of character for yourself?

But I don't know why I am being ignored. I am an active poster, involved in the setup spec, accountable for the wagon.

VOTE: moz

scum vote?

Bitch plz. I expressed my desire to lunch you like...200 posts ago?

You were questioned on being part of the wagon. Setup spec seems to make people ignore you (c.f. LUV and Fitz, Nosferatu).
You're being engaged with on

some

things but not the ones you want?

Another question. Why aren't you engaging with people instead of being bothered that no one is engaging with you? Like I don't know about you but best way to get

my

attention is "@Keychain" or variants.
You're going about this in a weird way.

I'm just confused as to when I stopped considering Allo as scum

... So you do still think they're scum?

[Keychain]

are scum incapable of lying?

I'm pretty sure every slot has posted since the claim. There has been no counterclaim. You must have realised this.

VOTE: Nosferatu

Why are you trying to cast doubt on someone who is pretty much confirmed town? If there is no counterclaim, we are not lynching them.

[Keychain]

why are you accusing me of doubtcasting when I've done no such thing?

Definition: Tending to hesitate, wait, or proceed with caution or reservation.

synonyms: uncertain, undecided, unsure,

doubtful

, dubious, skeptical; tentative, nervous, reluctant, unwilling, gun-shy;
indecisive, irresolute, hesitating, dithering, vacillating, wavering, waffling, blowing hot and cold;
ambivalent, of two minds, hemming and hawing;
informal: iffy

Yes, I know what hesitant means, thank you. Retreating to mechanical definitions doesn't serve your purpose when the word "doubtful" is in there. Bolded it for you.

I would qualify this as doubtcasting because you are ignoring the fact that he hasn't been CCed, as if it's irrelevant. All of your synonyms indicate that you are leaving the option open (ie. considering it), thus inducing uncertainty in the rest of the town. This is casting doubt.

Pretending as though you haven't because you haven't made a concerted push is ridiculous. Do you want me to define "subtle" for you?

VOTE: Realeo
Voted for him yesterday, acting scummy again today. Also on the mislynch wagon yesterday, though that alone does not make him scum.

Also he was on my wagon when i was L-1, and I am conftown

Yes okay what do you mean by "acting scummy", can you back that up with anything

[Keychain]

this is where I smile and nod and pretend you didnt just hit me with a fistful of bullshit

Um.

No.

If you think it's bullshit, this is where you tell me why, instead of trying to deflect.

*Reads Keychain's question properly*

*Raises eyebrow*

Dude. You're not even trying to fake it

You wanted the question, you got the question, now why are you not answering the question?

[Keychain]

And this is why I have a hard time reading Keychain. Keychain throws question, but sometimes I do not understand the goal of his question.

Most frequently the goal of my questions is to make things clearer for me, and to better figure out what people are thinking by how they respond. I find it really hard to get reads when I can't get responses to questions.

Are there particular questions I've asked that you don't understand the goal of? Why would this make me difficult to read?

Why someone is more interested at the way I present my read when there is a more important question: why is my read like that?

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

To answer my own question, it was a convulted gut. I do not townread his setup spec, but I smellled genuininrss from his game solving. I considered the possibility that it is just scum making up shit, but some feather ruffing I see seems unnecessary for scum.

Okay. Is there anything in particular about his gamesolving that you think seems genuine? Like it would help if you could get more specific than that. Also what feather ruffling do you mean?

[Keychain]

Drive safe, Fitz!

I don't know, must have been my other personality speaking Either you got a post number wrong, or a name wrong.

Oh hey I'm your other personality? Cool.

this is where I smile and nod and pretend you didnt just hit me with a fistful of bullshit

Um.

No.

If you think it's bullshit, this is where you tell me why, instead of trying to deflect.

I already did

Where though? I'm not really seeing it. Unless you think that the post you made before mine, the one that I was responding to, somehow explained why the post I made afterwards was bullshit.

But I don't really think that happened and I suspect you're just avoiding engaging me.

[Keychain]

Should probably be a "with" in that last bit...

[Keychain]

Aubrey, would you be able to expand on the reasons for that Fitz townread?
Also happy birthday, I think. I saw cake yesterday but timezones mean it might be today for you.

you suspect a lot of things

Yes. Are you going to respond properly or...?

[Keychain]

there's really nothing I can say in response to that. He's saying I'm doubtcasting and using what I would call a reach to argue that. We have different understandings of the word doubtcasting so I don't think there's really much point in discussing this.

I should also say that I already said why is claim is bullshit because my original point is literally my only response to his argument. I'm not going to try convince him that what I did isn't doubtcasting because in his mind it is. I don't think there's a way to convince him otherwise so I won't.

If I didn't like you I'd just ignore your slot like I do with mollie.

...

Right, so... Nos appears to be responding to my posts but only to LUV. I'm taking this to mean that LUV is our go-between like kids do when they're refusing to talk to each other, because I'm pretty dissatisfied by the way Nos has abandoned this discussion when the easiest way to clear it up would be to explain why they disagree with my definition of doubtcasting and how it applies here. I really really don't get what I'm missing and what I'm misunderstanding.

In which case - LUV, could you please tell Nos that this statement

I'm just confused by your tone. Different definitions are fine but there was no reason for you to express doubt in regards to Allo unless you've never played an Open setup before.

I didn't think that I was expressing doubt. It's not something I was going for.

is incredibly inconsistent with the fact that they emphasised their use of the word "hesitant" to the point of providing the dictionary definition and synonyms, and those included the word "doubtful"?

Thanks xx

The vote on Mozamis in 122 makes sense, it's backed up with good reasoning, however 343 is a little odd, why is pointing out inconsistencies in reasoning a bad sign?

407 seems slightly disingenuous however I see why you might feel the way you do about that post. To play devil's advocate, what would be the advantages of keeping a borderline troll player about?

Are there any reasons a town player might get frustrated that they look certain to be lynched? If yes then I don't see the point of 715. Also I forgot about not having a sig as a quote from the current game, I'll remove that now.

I think overall I get why you were suspicious of Moz, however can you summarise for me please?

343: I think you may have misread what I said? Other people were pointing out moz's inconsistencies (I thought this was good, not bad), and he was reacting by calling them scum or bad players (I thought this was bad).
407: I didn't like how moz had a townread on Nos but still proposed them as a lynch. Lynching scum is always ideal. To respond to your devil's advocate question, I did not really consider Nos as a "borderline troll player", but there are very few advantages to lynching a player you think is town. That's kind of a policy lynch instead of a pro-town lynch.
715: You're right, town can get frustrated as well, but it was top of my mind after hearing it as advice for scum. I suspected he might have been pulling that, hence the comment.

It feels really horrible describing why I thought a player was scum after they've flipped town, but sure. In summary:
The way he discredited people who attacked him, his accusation that Nos's scumread was due to out of game influences and attempt to set Nos up as a lynch despite claiming a townread, the way he tried to form a townbloc super early on, the way he didn't seem to consider the priority massclaim as carefully as I would expect town to do, his retreat from his early push on me.

To be frank, I kinda forget why I pick those 4 players.

I recalled it.

I remember that those 4 players are the type of players who has a lot of vibration (is vibration the word right choice? I don't know ._.) so it's the type of one that it's kinda hard to null.

The idea was that if Raya agrees that there is 1 scum in those 4 slots, I'm trying to make him to commit that there are 2 scums in the less impressive player. When I make him commit, I would have the upper hand to quiz him. If Raya disagree, I would be surprised and I don't think I have planned what to do next.

It was something like bait-and-switch.

I'm not sure vibration is the word you're looking for.
I don't know how to feel about you trying to trap Raya into making a statement considering you also believe that

Mafia is not linear like politic where I can't change my mind. Sorry, this won't fly.

Like it feels weird but at the same time I don't know that it would come from scum, and I don't know how well you could retcon that kind of trap.

[Keychain]

I didn't expect that. I really

really

didn't expect that.

Give me a bit and I'll respond to what you said, okay?

[Keychain]

Realeo don't cough at people, that's how sickness spreads.

@Nos: Okay.

First off
<3 you're not a horrible person, let's not go blaming your mum for anything. You're allowed to have bad moments.

Secondly
UNVOTE:
I think I'm on the wrong track here...

I saw it like you were deliberately ignoring the claim but doing it subtly by being like "oh yeah maybe he's not scum because of [other reason]." Because as scum if you just went "yeah fuk that claim lol" and tried to get him lynched we'd be like "um, no, die scum".

Like you were trying to set him up as a possible future lynch by drawing attention away from the fact that he's pretty much confirmed town?

LIKE just hesitant didnt mean im hesitant to say he's bp so saying that ive like uhh shaded his claim or something just sound like a reach to me cause it wasnt even IN my mind when I wanted to talk about things.

I just dont think its doubtcasting. I really don't... maybe you could explain to me how my use of the word hesitant made allo's claim like less uhh... what's a word for worthy that is actually fitting in context...AUTHENTIC yes. so yeah if you could answer that maybe this would be worth talking about cause i dont really see a proper resolution happening cause those are good

Yeah no I don't see doubtcasting as being a big push to make people disbelieve the claim, I saw it more as an insidious "let's keep him as a prospect" kind of thing, and then you were like "but I'm not making a big push I'm HESITANT here this is what it means" which didn't really ease my concerns at all on that because I wouldn't expect scum to be that obvious, ever.

Ignoring the claim and making evaluations of Allo being scum based on

something else

is what bothered me, and I saw your hesitation as more of an attempt to translate that hesitation to the rest of the game by saying it which you very clearly don't think. Currently the town is in "Allo is town" mode, it felt like you were trying to change it to "Allo is maybe town" mode.

Like does that make sense?

[Keychain]

I have 0 suspects atm.

Fitz, when you can, could you fix this asap?

Aubrey, isnt the conclusion of most your "case" is X is being wrong instead of X being scum?

And your point?

This may come across as cold, but; I'd much rather you tell me what you think about the matter, and the debate, rather than just asking me a question with an obvious answer.

This is an incredibly defensive reaction. Like you can very easily translate it to the statement of "Aubrey, the conclusion of most your "case" is X is being wrong instead of X being scum." Phrasing things as a question is frequently done to sound more polite. I don't know if that's what Realeo was going for, but this reaction was just weird.

A better example regarding Uzi's lover's frame comment.

It just seems like a bad plan as scum to say X when there is a chance you might not have had to say X to begin with. Especially when X could potentially place an unnecessary seed of doubt in the minds of the town when X's original indent was to be a defensive ploy against that very seed to begin with. You'd just think as scum he'd be more cautious, and check to see if anybody would have known to begin with. That's the best example I know how to illustrate my feelings toward it.

My initial suspicion was he was saying it because that was actually what had happened. I did know about their relationship, so checking the playerlist wouldn't have been a foolproof way of knowing who might have thought that.
But if he replaced in as scum overnight and killed Chick as his biggest threat, it possibly wouldn't have occurred to him that town didn't know he replaced in until daystart. So he immediately set up the "either it's a framejob or she was super on point". If it actually happened, he would expect the seed of doubt to already be there and so would say something to deal with it before anyone else suggested it.

...
Sigh.
I think I just talked myself back into it. I'll read through in the morning and see if his behaviour lines up as well, but that comment does feel so much like scum.

VOTE: Lil Uzi Vert

That said, scumreading someone for pushing you is bad, Aubs. If all townies were obvious town this game would be done and dusted. You are not obvious town, I continue to go back and forth on you.

@Aubrey

If you want to sort Flubber, the best way is by question, not votes. I have asked 1, you may want to join me in the quizzing row.

Aha
Questions
I love questions
Let me join

Flipped town with garbage reads doesn't say much

Flubber, if it wasn't for her reads, why do you think Chick was killed?

[Keychain]

Haven't read anything but I'm pretty sad girlfriend died.

Her death immediately tells me that she was either really on point this game or scum are trying to frame me.

A good part of this site knows that we're dating and that we both can read each other extremely well as a result. Scum could take advantage of this by killing her to push a narrative that consists of me being afraid of her realizing this is my scum game. However, I just took another look at this player list and the only player who I believe knows about our relationship for sure is Nos and I don't want to lynch her anytime soon.

I'm explaining why it's ludicrous for them to believe I would do that as scum.

Okay. You explain why we might think it, because you think you're being framed. Then you say it's ludicrous that we would. Still getting my head around that one.

I would say that it's irrelevant whether Chick was in a bad position or not. Having her flip town while scumreading you would be a really bad look - if we know she's good at reading you, we'd be likely to listen once she's confirmed town. Much better to get her out of the way before she has the chance.

[Keychain]

Happy birthday, Realeo. What is your feeling?

I don't think I'm being framed? What?

Sorry, that was badly phrased. You thought that the kill might have been the scum team trying to frame you, as you said in your second post. Clearly it wasn't, because your replace in was announced at daystart.

Did you read 971 at all?

When was she ever be going to be confirmed town? Is there a cop in the game?

I did.
I mean when she flipped. Like she's confirmed town now. If she flipped town after scumreading you, that leaves you in a considerably worse position than if she flipped town before getting the opportunity.

So I can see a legitimate reason why you as scum would want to kill Chick.
If it was truly ludicrous, it never would have been a concern and you wouldn't have brought it up in the first place.

[Keychain]

Let me try to make sense of your argument KC.

You believe I convinced my partners that Chick was the best night kill because of how bad it could look if she were to scum read me and either become confirm town or flipped town. Correct?

Yes, please let's talk.
That's a reasonably fair summary, though I think you're exaggerating the extent to which you would have to convince your partners in order to make it sound more unlikely. I don't think you would have replaced in and been like "screw your plans we need to kill my girlfriend stat". I think it could have been a factor, though.

I'll try and bring together the points into one cohesive post.

Haven't read anything but I'm pretty sad girlfriend died.

Her death immediately tells me that she was either really on point this game or scum are trying to frame me.

You replace in with the suggestion that you were possibly being framed. I asked about this because since you weren't announced as replacing in until daystart, it was a really odd thought to have.

Welcome LUV!

Haven't read anything but I'm pretty sad girlfriend died.

Her death immediately tells me that she was either really on point this game or scum are trying to frame me.

Why do you think a Chick kill would be to frame you?

A good part of this site knows that we're dating and that we both can read each other extremely well as a result. Scum could take advantage of this by killing her to push a narrative that consists of me being afraid of her realizing this is my scum game. However, I just took another look at this player list and the only player who I believe knows about our relationship for sure is Nos and I don't want to lynch her anytime soon.

You explain why it could have been a frame. You provide a reason for which you might have killed Chick. Then you change your mind because you don't think too many people on the playerlist would have known about your relationship.

@KC:

I received my role PM during the night so I assume everyone was informed I had replaced in.

This assumption doesn't make sense. You saw Chick had died so you'd read the post in which you were announced to be replacing in. This is why I'm leaning more to the side that you replaced into the scumteam, who were aware of your arrival, and led to you making the incorrect assumption that the town in general knew you'd replaced in.

Please unvote.

I would've killed IaI or Mjo if I was scum.

Then you change tack completely after my vote. Also given that you're now arguing that you wouldn't have necessarily been able to convince your partners, I'm not sure how valid this point is. It would also rely on you having read the thread.

I have no idea why people are on me or Realeo. As for my case, it's out there. I don't push unless I really care and I don't here. I usually just try to figure out who is misguided and doesn't have a legitimate reason for voting elsewhere or who's scum and is just parking their vote or not willing to bus. The votes for Realeo feel like the former, the votes on me feel like the latter. I don't know about the Flubber wagon but I don't see a reason to trust it since you're on it.

I'm saying there is no reason for me to elaborate on my town read at this time, not why I would kill him. I would never kill Chick as scum though because her cautious play style is perceived as scummy and too often gets her ran up.

If you would never kill Chick as scum why would you have ever assumed that scum would kill her to frame you? You would be assuming that scum have some knowledge of you two, so something as definite as never killing her as scum would possibly also be known and would make the whole framing thing kind of silly.
I don't buy that you would absolutely never do it and I don't think the likelihood of her getting mislynched is a huge factor. Chick saying "LUV is scum I can read him well" then getting mislynched and flipping town would still be bad for you.
In addition, the way you go from "please unvote" to "I think people voting me are scum" is scummy. I understand you had me in your lynchpool already, but this reason is bad.

Yeah I'm still really confused by the votes on me. Also struggling to understand how they can come from town.

The belief is that I killed Chickadee and decided to claim it was to frame me when town started analyzing and questioning why she was killed. So what Key and Rat are basically saying is that I, someone who did not play any of Day 1, somehow convinced my partners that she was the best kill last night. Why would I suggest to kill her when a simple read through would tell me she wasn't in good or favorable standing with a decent part of the town and hardly suspected my slot at all? I didn't read my predecessors ISO at all but I don't recall them being suspected or scum read upon my catch-up. If you agree with my assessment of my predecessor and decide to keep it in mind, why do I go through this gambit as scum? What do I gain from putting a target on my back like this?

Again with "people voting me are scum".
I don't think it was a gambit. I think it was a mistake based upon not realising town didn't have the same information, so yes it would have been a subpar move. Also you said you hadn't read anything and I think the few posts before yours are pretty sparse to be called "analyzing and questioning why she was killed".
Your predecessor was very quiet.

No I was talking about what Key and Rat seem to believe.

I must be missing something, because what you say key and rat seem to believe is pretty close to what 796

No?

I missed this. I'm not sure at the distinction you're trying to make.

No I was talking about what Key and Rat seem to believe.

I must be missing something, because what you say key and rat seem to believe is pretty close to what 796

No?

I'm not sure why you're confused Flubber.

I'm explaining why it's ludicrous for them to believe I would do that as scum.

And I come back to this.
You suggested it.
The only reason it would be a viable strategy for scum to use at all would be if town might believe it could happen.
I believe it happened, because I can see it being possible and the way you proposed it made me think it actually did and you blundered.
You promptly change your mind and call it ludicrous for someone to believe it because it would be such a bad idea from you as scum.

I don't understand how you made this reversal.

@Realeo

:

What is your feeling?

If IAI scumread because I have "no scumread out of 4 people?", why IAI does not scumread fitz since he have "no scumread out of everyone?"

I mean, sure, fitz has activity issue, but doesn't he is supposed to carry scumread from D1?

Town: Me of course.
Leaning town: Aubrey, IAI, MJoll, Keychain
Slightly less leaning but still leaning town: Nosferatu, Realeo, Uzi, Radical Rat
???: Flubbernugget
Suspects: Allomancer, mozamis, Chickadee

So I back off Allo before they claim so I feel good about that. I wavered on moz but still suspected and would have supported....so bad. And I suspected Chickadee...bad.

Not sure who my sr's are now.

He had three. One claimed BP. The other two died and flipped town.

[Keychain]

Not always?
I mean, I think he was intending to start over given that his three top scumreads were wrong. That's the impression I got.

[Keychain]

... what?

[Keychain]

Ohh I was thinking of the post I quoted before, his first of the day. You're talking about

Checking in. Sorry for the activity level. I'm on vacation and reading motivation is low. I'm town though so don't stress it.

I have a pretty busy day ahead of me but will try to get a catchup read through done (minus the annoying catch ups that Uzi hates) at some point today.

I have 0 suspects atm.

this one?

Definitely doesn't sound like he was catching up when he wrote that, since he promises a catchup read. Sounds more like reiterating that his position was the same as the start of the day.

Though now I read it again, he shows he was keeping up, because he mentions the fact that LUV hates his catchups.

[Keychain]

I thought it was because of 800, where LUV explicitly said he wasn't reading Fitz's ISO because of them (at the end).

Also go to bed. Sleep is great. You should do it.

[Keychain]

You're still not explaining why I come out and say the kill was to frame me.

I'll try and make it clearer.
You thought town was aware that you'd just replaced in. If your replacing in was a factor in Chick's death, then you may have been worried that town would pick up on that, and wanted to take control of that immediately.

If my predecessor was seen as null, scum are either going to want to remain there or slightly town read. Do you seriously think this was worth me risking my position for? You believe it to be a mistake yes? So you think I decided to just do this on a whim without discussing with my partners? Or if you think I discussed this with my partners, you think 3 people decided this, as in me suggesting I enter the game for the first time with that theory was a good idea? Seems very unlikely to me.

I think it is foolish for you and Rat to suggest I would make a mistake of this magnitude as scum.

I've played you one time. You were pretty absent town though you were on point with your reads. I don't know your scumgame and I don't believe you to be totally infallible. I don't know that an argument of "I'd never make such a mistake!" holds up amazingly well.

You also give the impression that the scum daytalk and your partners would be active and ready to discuss something as mundane as your entrance to the thread. That's not necessarily the case, especially from my POV as I get more suspicious of Fitz. I also don't think your partners would have micromanaged you, especially if you are considered reasonably good as scum. You would be free to make your mistake.

If I know my girlfriend can read me well, wouldn't I also know how to manipulate her because I know the reasons she often uses to town read me?

Because someone reading you well necessarily means that you are not good at manipulating them. If you were, they wouldn't be able to read you well. Also my premise for this is dependent on your post:

A good part of this site knows that we're dating and that we both can read each other extremely well as a result.

It feels like you're now contradicting this point.

---

Town: Me of course.
Leaning town: Aubrey, IAI, MJoll, Keychain
Slightly less leaning but still leaning town: Nosferatu, Realeo, Raya, Radical Rat
???: Formerfish
Suspects: Allomancer, mozamis, Chickadee

WE ARE GOING TO DIE! EVERYONE PANIC!

Not till the 23rd iirc.

Reads--
Town: Me of course.
Leaning town: Aubrey, IAI, MJoll, Keychain
Slightly less leaning but still leaning town: Radical Rat
???: Formerfish
Suspects: Nosferatu, Realeo, LUV

VOTE: Realeo

Happy birthday Fitz, whenever it hits in your timezone. I'd also like to point out that my government has set our election for the day the world is supposed to end, which I find hilarious.

You do realise Fish was replaced during Day 1? How do you not have a read on Flubber?
Was this reads list literally copied from your one over 500 posts ago, but with some townleans dropped to suspects?


Also is anyone else in this game having a birthday or are we almost done?

[Keychain]

Don't give me shit about my scum game. I don't make mistakes and I don't get suspected

unless I have bad partners.

Please don't.

Also.

This doesn't remove the possibility of you being scum with "bad partners".

Also.

Yes. However this mistake I'm being accused of seems very rookie like to me.

Assuming town was notified of your replace-in is a pretty rookie mistake that you definitely made, yes.

That is the mistake I'm talking about and it's not a question of whether you made it or not. It's a question of whether you made it as scum or town.
It turned what would have been a reasonable strategy as scum by taking control of the conversation into a blunder. If we had been notified, I wouldn't have considered it a mistake.
I don't believe that you don't make mistakes as scum.

Happy birthday Fitz, whenever it hits in your timezone. I'd also like to point out that my government has set our election for the day the world is supposed to end, which I find hilarious.

Why thank you. And yes...that is an amusing association between the end of the world and a government's election day (which country?).

New Zealand. I'm sure I can make some political joke about the end of the world considering we have a potential kingmaker scenario but... I don't think anyone will get it

You do realise Fish was replaced during Day 1? How do you not have a read on Flubber?

Flubber...Former...Former...Flubber. Vacation induced oversight. Thanks. Because he has not stood out in my reads and I haven't ISO'd him. He's not in my top three atm so no rush to sort. Fish was probably 51% scum iirc in my mind. Not enough to officially suspect and Flubber hasn't moved that needle.

So Nosferatu, Realeo and LUV are all more than 51% scum? They went from townleans to jumping someone you considered more likely to be scum than town?

In addition, why didn't you mention this 51% thing when you said you had 0 suspects?

[Keychain]

Yes, it's still English.
Same way spoken and written English are still the same language, or Japanese written using any of its systems are still all Japanese. It's just the medium that has changed.

Obviously from my POV, I don't see how one could think I'd make that mistake as scum. I tried to see it from Key and Rat's POV but it requires me to think of myself as not calculated and razor sharp as scum and I just can't do that.

...
..................
I don't know whether I should unvote you for this or personally beg every other player to lynch you. I'm thinking on it.
Can anyone else corroborate LUV's opinion of his scumgame?

Without reading Realeo vs. Fitz here I still think he's a mislynch.

Which one? Realeo or Fitz?

Does any of us has to advocate for Aubrey for world peace before we have Shouting Person II?

Aubrey for world peace!

[Keychain]

@KC:

Realeo

I'm inclined to agree. I don't think Realeo is scum. I'm not going to hammer.

Zzzzz

?

[Keychain]

Yeah well I guess we'll just have to lynch him.

VOTE: Flubbernugget

Flubbernugget is currently under replacement.

Confused...

[Keychain]

Oh yeah, welcome Creature!

[Keychain]

I saw that Flubber had made a post that had been deleted (still showed up as most recent post in bookmarks), then everything got locked down due to accidental alignment reveal. I didn't see the post itself but the conclusion wasn't hard to come to.

[Keychain]

Seriously, LUV?

havingfitz,

Town Hider

, Priority 12, Removed Night 3.

Well that's that.

Looking at yesterday's lynch...might have a few questions for IAI tomorrow if we both make it to tomorrow.

The hider literally guiltied scum with a crumb pointing to his target. On this page.

VOTE: I Am Innocent

[Keychain]

?
There is a blatant hider crumb implicating IAI, plus he's been CCed. There is no way he isn't scum.
Fitz, as hider, would never make a final post like that and then hide behind Aubrey. Especially if he thought Aubrey might be scum. The risk of such a huge miscommunication going into MyLo is just too high.

[Keychain]

I don't think I have anything to say until Allo or replacement turns up to state massclaim order, if we're going with that.

I still think we should just lynch IAI today instead of risking mislynching between the other two, whoever they turn out to be. There's no way Fitz suspected Aubrey and went to check him without leaving some sort of crumb or even mentioning him once in the entire preceding Day - the only benefit of the hider dying on scum is if the town knows who it is. Instead he mentioned IAI, who also happens to have been CCed.

[Keychain]

Welcome, BlackVoid!

Pretty much, yes. You are confirmed town due to lack of counterclaim. When we've massclaimed there will be another confirmed town based on who doesn't get counterclaimed.

We're also in MyLo.

[Keychain]

You will really enjoy reading Day 1.

[Keychain]

What's your timezone?

[Keychain]

BlackVoid

please save us from this limbo

luv then key then creature should claim

can we just get on with it

IAI is almost certainly scum from obvious hider target crumb, so I'm happy for Nos to decide the order if it means we can continue this game.

VRO

what

[Keychain]

I'm VT. Not gonna be around for about twelve hours to see if I get CCed, but the game has waited long enough tbh.

So hasty before but now that your horse has been asked to claim first the switch in tone.

If I lose to this obv scum I'm going to be pretty ticked

... I'm sorry did you just call me a horse?
If we don't lynch you today after you got guiltied and instead mislynch and lose,

I'm

going to be ticked.

[Keychain]

Well I'm not here and I'm not hammering, so if Key is town, she now knows I'm town. That should be two votes on Nos now.

I have strong town reads on both so I really wish it didn't have to go down this way.

Well this game got easier, cause if Key doesn't switch to Nos she scum claims at this point. So if you and BV hop over, we win.

I'm kind of thrown by this.

I can't really see Nos as scum after 925 and thereabouts. And I can't see IAI as town after Fitz's death, and the way IAI was all like "gosh I'm gonna have a talk with Fitz", clearly seeing he was caught by the hider and trying to brush it off as bad play by Fitz, and then switches to the opinion that it was in no way shape or form a hider crumb when no one except Nos and I seem to actually believe it.

There was no cop guilty. He said if we both live he is going to have questions for me. Yet if he hid behind me and we were both alive the next day he would know I was town so why would he have questions for me?!?! Stop with the got guiltied already. You are either wrong or pushing a scum agenda. If it's the former I am going to need your vote on Nos today or town will lose. If it's the latter, keep being stubborn.

In this. Like. Fitz couldn't have been any clearer unless he outright said "I am the hider, I am switched on and I will be targeting I Am Innocent tonight". Can you see why that might be a bad idea?
Of course he didn't mean he would actually have questions for you, either you'd be cleared or he'd be dead. But if a hider randomly mentions an interest in someone like that in the last post of the day before dying, it seems to me like that's excellent hider play and town should be paying attention to that.

But yeah. You could have hammered me. You didn't. I don't know what to think of that. BlackVoid is right in 1412 though, it could be that you're worried about Nos blocking a kill.

However I might as well vote for the confirmed scum for now.
VOTE: Creature


Creature and IAI make a lot of sense together. Creature also started off the day with a pretty solid scumread on IAI, stalling to find the partner, but it's diminished as it's become clear that IAI isn't as certain a lynch as he seemed to be initially.

I thought it would be LUV, but obviously not.

[Keychain]

for the first night I wanted to see if someone would switch me on,

which happened

.

?

[Keychain]

Congratulations and good game town!

IAI stop stealing all the credit for the loss you played well and were our strongest asset, you have nothing to apologise for. I should have CCed LUV and I absolutely should have fought harder on that day, but that's on me. I checked with Fitz and the Chick thing was a legit crumb, so you especially don't need to feel bad for that! The gambit turned out to be a mistake though.

We were already in a bad position but BlackVoid's replace in was the death knell for scum

I thought Keychain was very convincing and would have been very hard to catch if not for being in a cc with Creature.

Yup, that was a bad decision. Thank you though!

And thank you so much for modding kunkstar!

[Keychain]

Sorry Chick, you would have been a good mislynch <3 It was nice to play with you again though!

@Keychain, out of curiosity, why did you abruptly stop pushing Nos D2? I was considering the possibility of it being scum theater but decided against it and am wondering if I interpreted it right.

Keychain spent most of the early D2 tunneling him, and then he broke down completely (923 and 925) and then Keychain unvoted. It's hard to see all that as theater. Looks more like Keychain was tunneling a townie and backed off almost because she felt bad (929)?

Very accurate. I was trying to get into a nitpicky kind of fight iirc and Nos's reaction completely threw me. I felt bad, yes, but I also had no idea how the reaction would come across to the town, and if continuing to push them after that would be too stubborn.