Normal 1934: Civilization Mafia Mafia (Endgame)

[Gamma Emerald]

You were in Democracy in GiF's game.

She probably doesn't remember that because when a traumatic event happens, you tend to have no memory of it because you don't want to remember it.

All I know is that we signed up for that game, anything else, couldn't tell ya what happened >_>

So no grudges held, sweet!

[humaneatingmonkey]

4-6 thoughts:
#79, #81 Chill expecting me to vote Korts when I had a case on him is either him town not reading or scum-motivated deflection. But even then, why would Chill think there was grounds to vote Korts at that point? Actually, my meta on Chill is that he's actually a good player—although ML bait. So none of these bad plays make sense.
#87 I think if Chill was really trying to understand my vote, he would have just read my ISO and found the reason there. This is coming from a scummy place.
#100, #103 I can't understand TChill's defense of PS because it's not coming from a logically-sound place. But it was still looking like it can be town out of touch from the game.
#102 I can't understand why TChill will drop his "Robb is fake scumhunting" read in #98 over Robb's NAI statement AND even warrant an unvote.
#103 I don't see how acknowledging that Percy was lying makes him read her as town. Still coming from a scummy place. "Of course that's gonna come off as scummy especially if your thought process is biased." This sucked. There were valid arguments against Percy that he dismissed as "conf bias". However, #126 Chill's answer was sorta okay, but I don't think presurred town newbies are inclined to lie out of their situation. That's more of a scum newbie. But I can see how Chill and I can disgaree about that as TvT.
#133 and #134 is consistent with defending Percy. With the whole legitimate area of doubt existing around Percy, I don't get why Chill isn't more paranoid about Percy. It can be ScumChill+TownPercy or ScumChill+ScumPercy.

#80 Korts with scum fake bravado or town conf bias. NAI. #88 Korts's thwarting of Chill's agenda may come from town with genuine intention to scumhunt or scum noticing the better possibility of a mislynch through TChill. NAI. Korts vs TChill here looks like TvS from either side. So, my final read may only have either on each side but for now I'll place them both there since there isn't too much that solidifies the idea that only one can be scum.

#82 nancy mentioning my meta to sort me as town feels like something scum wouldn't do.

#90 I was not satisfied with Massive's answer regarding his vote on Robb. Robb's reason may be bad but it's still not grounds for a scumread since it looked strikingly town for me.
#94 #119 Massive it's still unexplined why 42-44 relieves Percy. He also fails to answer that in #138 where he instead dismisses me as cynical. Massive was very defensive of Kaboose "light attack' and I don't get his scumread there other than it's OMGUS.
#119 Massive votes Kaboose for something I think is NAI. It establishes that massive votes based on bad plays rather than alignment-indicative things—which is NAI. But it doesn't excuse the other stuff.

#91 is blatant change subject from Percy. Scummy. His Korts read here is sublime but it can be SvS or TvS from either side.
#111 Percy is still sustaining the narrative that her RVS vote was deliberate. At least she has a consistent narrative now.
#116 #149 Percy's AtE feels real but the way it peters off into a bad inconsistent defense of herself reminds me of my girlfriend when she tries to make me feel sorry and change my mind about what she did. This is coming from a scummy place. But then it might actually feel like she might be frustrated town at #149.

#115 Ginngie's pre-emptive defense of Korts is suspicious. There might be S+S between Korts and Ginngie. Her backtrack on #129 is lame because obviously she was implying that anyone scumreading Korts was dumb.

As for Robb, his tunnelvision is all what makes his play. It' hard to move any reads about him towards town or scum because he's consistent.

Reads so far:

Town: Nancy
Leantown:
Nulltown: Robb
Null:
Nullscum: Percy, Massive
Leanscum: Korts, Assemble, Ginngie, TChill
Scum:

[Tchill13]

I've literally stated why I didn't shoot about 4 times. I had no idea who might be scum and I felt like scum might be pushing me to shoot assemblr so I didn't do that.

[Tchill13]

I understand why it's a concern but I'm just gonna repeat myself over and over again.

[nancy]

I get that Tchill and the fact that you didn't shoot last night isn't really one of my concerns with you right now personally (you couldn't have shot anyway since you were jailed by Vecna) just as long as you understand that probably the biggest reason why you're not scum here is that you've claimed Vigilante - if you're not shooting that becomes pretty problematic. You're right that it's not something that needs to be talked about because it's irrelevant as soon as you do shoot but that does absolutely need to happen and arguing that you don't want to shoot tonight because you might hit town isn't really acceptable here; does that make sense? Basically just wanting to make sure that you confirm your role here so we don't have to worry about your slot anymore.

[humaneatingmonkey]

7-9 thoughts:
#150 "What about korts accusing you of wifom? That seemed a little too much in my opinion." Pocketing.
#153 Like I said. Anyone who thinks the WIFOM argument holds any bearing is likely a bad player or scum. Since my meta on Chill is that he's far from a bad player, this is scummy.
#174 TChill confirms my idea that TChill missing points and avoiding questions is just him not paying attention to this game at all. #186 can come from any alignment but it's more indicative of his level of enthusiasm about the game. Instead of backreading to refute some stuff, he directly asks for questions.

#154 Sunlit Diamond is too late to the TChill wagon to be SvS. It's a TvS or a TvT scenario.

#160 Exhibits genuine paranoia but I can agree to disagree with Korts on the RVS vote reason. But he didn't understand why I asked what I would gain for pushing Percy. It was to establish that pushing that Percy wagon early draws unnecessary heat on my place, disadvantaging me as scum. Also, I don't think heading off others to townread me is beneficial for me at this point.

#163 Ginngie gaslighting that "dumb to scumread Korts" implication is hilarious.

#164 Assemblerotws lands a bad vote for a bad reason. The vote was no longer about RVS. He also didn't vote anyone from the list of "scummy people" he said in #172.
#172 This reminds me of a certain president from a global world power. "I believe these people are scum because they are doing scummy things that I saw people say are scummy. What needs to happen is to know exactly which are the scum. We also need to build a wall."
#178 Didn't make much sense and is too much of a bullshit to be town.

Reads so far:

Confirmed Town: Ari/Vecna
Town: Nancy
Leantown:
Nulltown: Robb
Null: Everyone not in the list.
Nullscum: Percy, Massive, TChill
Leanscum: Korts, Ginngie
Scum: Assemble

[humaneatingmonkey]

10-12

#247 This is different from him being lazy. This is a literal push for something he read. I still the same argument about.
#260 I can understand if he's doing this because he wants me to post, but it's not consistent with him scumhunting. He unvotes in #274. Hehe.
#272 It is at this point I realize no one is defending Tchill except Massive. Neither are there players making the effort to distract the town away from TChill's wagon except Assemblerotws. If TChill flips scum, I'll look towards this direction.
#281 to #283 might be town desperation, scum desperation, or scum bussing so that vote isn't really AI.

Eddie Cane's entrance is suspect. Instead admitting to Percy's obviously scummy play, he doubles down. This is a play that does not make sense as town.
#286-#292 makes little sense.
#293 His read on Robb is not something I can agree to disagree. tunneling is not scum. I don't get too how he would have read ginngie as townlean. "They're too lamisty if ya know what I mean" takes shortcuts instead of actually demonstrating what he means.
These series of posts drive him hard towards red.

#265 Since Ari is LHF, Dark Horse using Ari's meta to townread him gives him towncred.

#266 massive acknowledging that Dark Horse towncred gives him towncred.

#252 Korts' rebuff make him at least consistent.

#267 Ginngie's echo holds less bearing because it's late to the "Ari might be town" wagon.

Robb is demonstrating consistency only town could be capable of.

Reads so far:

Confirmed Town: Ari/Vecna
Town: Nancy
Leantown: Robb
Nulltown: Dark Horse
Null: Massive, Everyone not in the list.
Nullscum: TChill
Leanscum: Korts, Ginngie
Scum: Assemble, Eddie Cane

[humaneatingmonkey]

Off-thoughts: I think it's highly probable that EVERYONE in the last minute assemblerotws wagon is town. Much more probable if Assemblerotws is scum. But still probably if Assemblerotws is town. I think we should all prioritize lynching players we scumread for their play that isn't on that wagon—including Assemblerotws. If I don't like the wagon nearing the deadline, I will push for Assemblerotws lynch.

[Robbnva]

Eddie Cane's entrance is suspect. Instead admitting to Percy's obviously scummy play, he doubles down. This is a play that does not make sense as town.

1. If he had actually done that, most people on this site consider this an amished scumtell. Coming in and criticizing your predecessor is considered a no no.

2. He did quote one of his predecessors posts and called them possible scum which is a huge red flag that nobody else seems to see.

[Gamma Emerald]

I get that Tchill and the fact that you didn't shoot last night isn't really one of my concerns with you right now personally (you couldn't have shot anyway since you were jailed by Vecna) just as long as you understand that probably the biggest reason why you're not scum here is that you've claimed Vigilante - if you're not shooting that becomes pretty problematic. You're right that it's not something that needs to be talked about because it's irrelevant as soon as you do shoot but that does absolutely need to happen and arguing that you don't want to shoot tonight because you might hit town isn't really acceptable here; does that make sense? Basically just wanting to make sure that you confirm your role here so we don't have to worry about your slot anymore.

Wait what

[Robbnva]

Did I miss how we knew he was jailed by vecna?

[humaneatingmonkey]

I also think that there's at least 1 scum in the Vecna wagon.

Also, if I or Ginngie get scumkilled before TChill and TChill has not confirmed by vigging—he's scum.

Anyway,

13-15 This is the punishment that I deserve for not being into the game.

#300 Is a stance against Robb that I can understand if not for Eddie not acknoweldging Percy's past scummy actions.
Eddie is playing well, as in both alignments.
#302 You can really see that he's committed to the push, although his arguments assume to much to be solid. His point of view does not consider the angle that Robb is town. It's NAI, because it can either be aggressive scum or OMGUS-ing town. My best guess motive for it is that he's shaking Robb's confidence off the wagon he's leading. That motive is NAI.
#304 Eddie makes a good point about Robb and TChill. They're not S+S. But I don't get why he choses Robb over TChill other than 1v1-ing Robbnva.
#305 Eddie makes a misrepresenting statement about TChill's play to prove a point that TChill is town. It's consistent with the Percy-TChill S+S relationship. About that: I don't think he gets mislynched because most people gets caught up that he's an ML bait and adjusts their scumreads accordingly. At least according to my own experience. Although he makes an understandable case about Robb's behavior. Problem is: I don't believe that tunnels are alignment-indicative. And in this case, I don't think Robb's tunnel can be viewed as more scum than town. But that's something I can agree to disagree.
#342 Eddie backtracks after being called out. He also starts to acknowledge Percy's scumminess. And somehow this does not absolve Robb of anything. Says he has no choice but to vote him but that's not true. He presents an interesting case against TChill. He townleans assemble—but why?
#368 He makes a case why Robb's anti-town town-looking wagon is actually an anti-town scum-looking wagon in disguise. It makes sense and it changes my mind about Robb a little. But I already have decided Robb's town because of his hard-headedness. His hard-headedness just makes sense as town. And his hard-headed arguments are something I can understand to be coming from town.
#371 is also a good post. But NAI since Eddie has a talent for misrepresentation.

#369 #370 Robb finally strains himself when he reaches for an Eddie Cane scumread from his troll posts. He also misrepresents Eddie. Me thinks he's not listening and I'm seeing a literal conf bias. Ultimately, still NAI. It doesn't help that Eddie Cane is aggressive to him. That won't change his mind.
#374 Robb becomes LAMIST here. But I don't know what that means in relation to his meta.

Robb vs Eddie is NAI.

#307 Throws me off about my read on TChill. My initial analysis on the slots is scumchill + scumpercy/townpercy. Seeing it now, I think it's NAI because it could be anything but I have a feeling this is noteworthy for future flips. But my read that he lacks paranoia about Percy/Eddie still stands because even if he admits that Eddie misrepresentent him in #309, nothing came out of it.
#330 I think when people are talking about their metas like this, it's more often than not because they're trying to play to their meta.
#337 TChill continues the trend of no paranoia and deflection.
#340 Tchill acknowledges Eddie's attempt to a towncred. Still, nothing of it.

#316 Korts admits the WIFOM comment is NAI and it's consistent since he has petered out on his pursuit on me. Suddenly, #64, #66, #67 feels like genuine scumhunting since it can be established in the rest of the thread that Korts is an endearing (with the highest of love) asshole. But regarding the post, it's NAI—I think both scum and town can make cases.

#320 Assemblerotws cannot be more scummy with pop in-pop out IIOAs.

#315 Ginngie vs Tchill is TvS or TvT but never SvS.
#334 Ginngie claims Day 3 Innocent Child. Confirmable. Okay. She can be town until D3, then. Won't spend time analyzing her if that can be confirmed.

#348 Massive makes assumptions just to justify his town read on Chill. That's bad.
#349 He double downs on his vote on Robb being condescending, changing the reason for that vote yet again. Inconsistency is bad.

#343 Sunlit Diamond abolves TChill of patently scummy behavior just because it could also be bad play. I can understand where that's coming from. What's not clear here for me is why he's voting Robb. Because while they can't be S+S, they can still be T+T. So his vote does not make sense at a logical level, especially since he didn't vote him because of his play. However, I can see this post coming from both town and scum so NAI.
#356 I can understand the scumread on me. I was lurking and I wasn't actively challenging my vote on TChill.

Reads so far:

Confirmed Town: Ari/Vecna, Ginngie by Day 3, TChill by Day 3 (if he vigs)
Town: Nancy
Leantown:
Nulltown: Dark Horse, Sunlit Diamond, Robb
Null: Everyone not in the list.
Nullscum: Massive, Korts
Leanscum: TChill, Unconfirmed Ginngie, Eddie Cane
Scum: Assemble

[Robbnva]

@grendel

Spoiler:

I'm really frustrated, and disappointed.

@Rob

If you are as unhappy, and care as little about the game as you claim to then just sub out. It doesn't matter if you're right or wroung about your reads. If you think that Eddie is subbing out because he was "scum read" then you are oblivious to what a crude and hurtful player you can be.

You have ten years of experience, and played over a hundred games of mafia collectively under your alt accounts. You know that town act irrational, you know town do crap they shouldn't, you standing by what you've justifying as a policy lynch when we are half way through D2 does nothing for the rest of us. Especially if Eddie is town.

If you are going to keep insisting on lynching the first scum read you delvoped this game I'm going to datamine as many of your games as I can and show how statistically bad you are at catching scum D1. Because operating under the premise that town wouldn't lie is utterly obtuse. I don't get how you can stand by the same principals when they have failed you more then they have validated you. It doesn't matter if its moraly right, correct, etc. I would love a game where town didn't play stupidly. However, that isn't how this game works Rob.

You're just not... helping here

I guess I'm being foolish right now as well since you've made it abundantly clear that you don't want to listen to other people. Just, If you can't reel it in, consider subbing out.

-Pre-edit

Exactly

Was just going to ignore this but now I'm bored.

1. The only thing I'm unhappy about is people aren't seeing Eddie as obv scum. Why would I replace out for that? That makes me just as bad as Eddie. Replacing out cause things don't go your way is a terrible reason. It's taking your ball and going home which too many kids do these days. No. I'm a man and I grew up in a generation where you don't quit or give up cause things are tough or hard. I wish more people had that mentality.

2. As I've said earlier. I can't control what I find scummy. Just cause town also play scummy doesn't mean I should completely abandon what I find scummy because that allows scum to get by doing these things undetected. Before I got banned I had this theory that a lot of players were dumbing down their town games so they could play as scum easier. Upon my return I see that town playing poorly has increased way more. I see a lot of people trying to emulate RC who was probably the one who's most famous for it. I'm not giving people a free pass cause they play bad. I felt PS started off awkward and her reactions to being questioned weren't good. Eddie came in and did nothing to improve the slot. If you want to discredit my push as a policy lynch, go right ahead but that's not what it is at all. I legitimately scum read the slot cause I don't feel they have acted with town's best interests in mind.

3. Go ahead and waste your time data mining my games. That's not going to change how i play. Instead of giving me shit for scum reading "townies playing poorly" why not blame the people who played poorly? Players need to start taking this game more seriously. If every townie tries their best and scum hunts, it's a lot easier to catch scum.

4. I'm perfectly willing to listen to others. From what I've seen nobody has made a convincing argument as to why Eddie is town. Nobody has made a convincing argument as to why other people are scum. Your reasons in post 639 as to why monkey is scum weren't very convincing. So instead of berating me and my play, step
up your own game.

If people want me to consider somebody else besides Eddie/korts. Post or link me to the post that has your most convincing reasons and I'll look into it later today.

[humaneatingmonkey]

TChill, since Vecna was a top wagon, I want you to imagine that the town mislynched him on D1 and the scum didn't choose to kill. Not hard to think about, eh? You should change your mind about not vigging tonight otherwise I will push for your lynch tomorrow.

[massive]

Massive?

How is condescending a grounds for voting?

I will always happily vote for someone being a jackass or just plain unnecessarily mean. I don't want to play with those people. There needs to be consequences for them treating people like shit. I may be the only person on site who feels that way. And you know perfectly well that there are reasons to vote for people other than them being scum, but you continue to play this like "massive blatantly said being condescending was scummy." AND your initial case for Persephone was trash. So stop acting like you had some pristine gameplay that didn't precipitate that vote.

I dunno, looks like you wanted me to answer and then found it so OK. Why do you think my reason for voting Kaboose was something that I should have considered NAI?

Gamma I will give you a temporary benefit of the doubt on Grendel.

[Korts]

VOTE: unvote

I started my reread with the intention of not voting until I'm finished, but then I got sucked into the argument with Robb, and he got enough of a rise out of me that I made an emotional decision. I'm pretty unhappy about that, and I'll try to be more detached from this point. Having let most of my anger go, I can see that Robb's reaction is reflective of his grating personality more than his scumminess - but I still stand by my general argument that his Percy case is built on bad logic.

I've only been skimming since my last post otherwise, but since I've seen multiple defenses of Robb's RVS stance, I feel a need to clarify. I can understand that people would argue that RVS applies strictly to random voting unsupported by any additional reasoning - but that is a purely theoretical position, and doesn't work as a scumtell in a game where others (myself included) do not adhere to that position. From my experience, RVS is used just as frequently as a colloquial term to refer to any early game voting, including joke reasons - especially by newbies. That Robb continues to push a case based on "it's not an RVS vote if you give a reason," when multiple people have asserted a different philosophy, is something that really bugs me. It is not a solid foundation for a case, let alone one that's still being pushed 40 pages later.

Unfortunately, I cannot continue my catch-up today, as I have other commitments. I will be back with more tomorrow.

[humaneatingmonkey]

@massive
"I dunno, looks like you wanted me to answer and then found it so OK."
Yes and I found more. I found that originally, you supplied a reason other than "condescending" when people was asking you about it, but later you change your mind and said what you said in post 349. Why didn't you just say that in the first place?

"Why do you think my reason for voting Kaboose was something that I should have considered NAI?"
I don't remember. Let me get back at you when I'm not sleepy.
---------------------
16-18 I wish I can finish this soon. Will anyone read this? I am so tired catching up, and I have one more game thread to catch up to. T_T

#382 This might be minute and stupid for me to notice, but Korts feels like a vulture circling around Robb and Eddie here. But it can also be town just wanting to sort Robb or to see his point. But still.

#386 and #389 is a flip-flop I can only see from town. Robb is in a dead end here with his anti-towniness. The opportunistic scum thing is to misread him and jump on him. This strengtens my townread on Sunlit.

#390 I think I forgot to answer this question by nancy:

"forgot to answer this earlier but you feel different too; not sure if you're aware of the difference or not but I wouldn't mind hearing about that"

I'm less intelligent here because I don't have all the information. I don't know who to incriminate, who to pocket, who to vote, etc. And it isn't just about looking town, it's also trying to figure out who's lying. It's easier for me to fuck up that way.

My read of Nancy as town won't go. Every time I arrive at her posts, it's always a mirror to what my notes look like. That's NAI in itself but it fortifies my read on her.

@397 Yes yes sure another good point by Eddie against Robb. But it just doesn't make sense for Robb to be scum. At the same post, he lols at Sunlit Diamond. So much for "you need to work with town." At the same post, his answer to nancy about me being LAMIST is BULLCRAP. I don't see how "posts like" (to misrepresent that there are many) 56, 60, 77 can be LAMIST and his analysis is also BULLCRAP.

His spiel about how he have no choice but to vote him, I can't see to be coming from town. If he is town, I think Eddie Cane is OMGUS-ing hard on Robb because he can't consider the angle that Robb is coming from a town perspective. That and also he's admitted to only see Robb being town if he TRs him. I'm guessing that the scum motivation here is to invalidate Robb's argument, but that can go both alignments. I admit, I haven't figured out a strong scum motivation for Eddie to engage Robb at a 1v1 because Robb is not an easy mislynch. I don't really like how he creates read based on pre-flip associations on Robb when his Robb push is resting on shaky ground.

I was wrong to say that their feud was NAI. It's not SvS for sure. It's TvS or TvT.

#402 I can see how Grendel can look at Robb vs Eddie as TvT, and how Sunlit Diamond fits there. I am saying this as a comment, not a read.

I'm stopping at #408 because I'm sleepy.

Taking Ginngie and TChill out because they're confirmable—so if they lied, they're auto-lynches. I won't waste my time analyzing them when it's so easy to sort them, and I won't go as far as to read people based on their pre-flip associations. And also I want to speed things up a bit catching up. Although I HIGHLY DOUBT TChill's claim because I don't believe he didn't catch on that he needed to vig someone. I think he just claimed a role he can't confirm because he isn't that role.

Reads so far:

Confirmed Town: Ari/Vecna
Town: Nancy
Leantown: Sunlit Diamond
Nulltown: Dark Horse, Robb
Null: Grendel
Nullscum: Massive, Korts
Leanscum:
Scum: Assemble, Eddie Cane

[Gamma Emerald]

I wouldn't say lynch Ginngie if he's not autoconfirmable but I won't object unless I end up townreading him

[Ginngie]

Did I miss how we knew he was jailed by vecna?

Vecna said it, just look after Vecna claimed

[Robbnva]

So we don't know for sure he actually jailed him...

[massive]

It's immaterial if he jailed him or not, since Tchill didn't shoot and it didn't factor into his decision.

[Robbnva]

I think he just claimed a role he can't confirm because he isn't that role.

it's literally the dumbest thing ever to fake claim vig on day 1.

I see why people wanted to lynch you.

[massive]

Still haven't answered why Eddie's slot is scum and Tchill is just bad town. Other than "I'm still stuck in my tunnel."

[Robbnva]

Still haven't answered why Eddie's slot is scum and Tchill is just bad town. Other than "I'm still stuck in my tunnel."

Uh yes I did.

[RadiantCowbells]

I neeeveeeeeeeeeeer