Newbie 1817 - Bolo (Game Over)

[adilm29h]

Firstly I would like to address that how can I not know that I have the hammer if you guys all said that he is at L1 etc. Darynth stated that he is at L1 couple posts right before I hammered in. So no I am not lying.

Second Firstly I think there is utterly no reason for someone to get angry and throw in profanity and purely insult the other player, as it does not get any results, and is not a proper defence. It's just someone screaming and throwing in bad words, so he can have a strong voice, so people can side with him.
Also it seems as though he uses those swear words to create a commotion instead of just answering the questions and co-operating.
Why would I townie try and cause more commotion instead of trying to get to the problem and solving it. <---- My read on CD vs GreyIce.
Cd- Trying to solve the problem and move forward.
GreyIce- Swearing and trying to create more problem.

And FANCYPANTS... as an IC, being experienced, he should have read the posts and see who was killed and who was lynched. How could he not even know Darynth was killed...
1. He is a HORRIBLE IC with the way he is playing using swear words, and not knowing who even got killed. (I don't think IC's are supposed to be like that)
2. He is smart and uses this as a leverage to making people thinking he is town.

Result:GreyIce definitely Scum.

[FancyPants]

Firstly I would like to address that how can I not know that I have the hammer if you guys all said that he is at L1 etc. Darynth stated that he is at L1 couple posts right before I hammered in. So no I am not lying.

Second Firstly I think there is utterly no reason for someone to get angry and throw in profanity and purely insult the other player, as it does not get any results, and is not a proper defence. It's just someone screaming and throwing in bad words, so he can have a strong voice, so people can side with him.
Also it seems as though he uses those swear words to create a commotion instead of just answering the questions and co-operating.
Why would I townie try and cause more commotion instead of trying to get to the problem and solving it. <---- My read on CD vs GreyIce.
Cd- Trying to solve the problem and move forward.
GreyIce- Swearing and trying to create more problem.

And FANCYPANTS... as an IC, being experienced, he should have read the posts and see who was killed and who was lynched. How could he not even know Darynth was killed...
1. He is a HORRIBLE IC with the way he is playing using swear words, and not knowing who even got killed. (I don't think IC's are supposed to be like that)
2. He is smart and uses this as a leverage to making people thinking he is town.

Result:GreyIce definitely Scum.

While it might be logical that getting upset and causing a commotion doesn't help town. I don't see how it helps scum Greyice either, if anything it just draws attention to yourself.
People get emotional for all sorts of reasons, and while scum can get emotional, I don't see why getting emotional is inherently townie.

Also I don't see how the person who killed Draynth could forget they were dead, how does scum GreyIce literally forget the name he sends in to the mod. Now I know it's fakable which is why I didn't make a big deal out of it, but if you believe he's being genuine than you can't think he's scum.
You say he is a horrible IC and then in the next sentence say he is smart. Classic scumulate .

[FancyPants]

*Inherently scummy.

[adilm29h]

Firstly I would like to address that how can I not know that I have the hammer if you guys all said that he is at L1 etc. Darynth stated that he is at L1 couple posts right before I hammered in. So no I am not lying.

Second Firstly I think there is utterly no reason for someone to get angry and throw in profanity and purely insult the other player, as it does not get any results, and is not a proper defence. It's just someone screaming and throwing in bad words, so he can have a strong voice, so people can side with him.
Also it seems as though he uses those swear words to create a commotion instead of just answering the questions and co-operating.
Why would I townie try and cause more commotion instead of trying to get to the problem and solving it. <---- My read on CD vs GreyIce.
Cd- Trying to solve the problem and move forward.
GreyIce- Swearing and trying to create more problem.

And FANCYPANTS... as an IC, being experienced, he should have read the posts and see who was killed and who was lynched. How could he not even know Darynth was killed...
1. He is a HORRIBLE IC with the way he is playing using swear words, and not knowing who even got killed. (I don't think IC's are supposed to be like that)
2. He is smart and uses this as a leverage to making people thinking he is town.

Result:GreyIce definitely Scum.

While it might be logical that getting upset and causing a commotion doesn't help town. I don't see how it helps scum Greyice either, if anything it just draws attention to yourself.
People get emotional for all sorts of reasons, and while scum can get emotional, I don't see why getting emotional is inherently townie.

Also I don't see how the person who killed Draynth could forget they were dead, how does scum GreyIce literally forget the name he sends in to the mod. Now I know it's fakable which is why I didn't make a big deal out of it, but if you believe he's being genuine than you can't think he's scum.
You say he is a horrible IC and then in the next sentence say he is smart. Classic scumulate .

When I started listing. I listen that 1 either he is a horrible IC or 2 a smart scum.
Me agreeing with the latter.
1 and 2 contradict each other. Therefore you know I am mentioning either 1 or 2. Rather than 1 and 2

[FancyPants]

Ah yes, missed that.
@Xa light, do you think the NK was a good one? I know it's WIFOM but please humour me.

[Xalxe]

Vote Count 2.1

Wine tasting notes: Ashes, rain clouds, a favorite t-shirt accidentally left in a lousy hotel, bird song. Finish of red fruit and empathy.

GreyICE (2)

: adilm29h, cd

adilm29h (1)

: GreyICE

Not Voting

: FancyPants, cd, Xa ligha, Aster, adilm29h, MotherGothel28, GreyICE

With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-09-09 07:05:29)

[cd]

@CD, you're going to have to explain why GreyIce acting the way he has is specifically scum motivated rather than emotionally motivated before I agree with you. At this stage I'm pretty sure GreyIce is town.

I don't think this frustration is genuine or justified whatsoever.

350 is his first post in day 2. Nothing wrong whatsoever about this other than his lack of explanation on his 3 "obvious town" reads {FancyPants/XL/Aster}. I initially asked him why Aster was "obvious town" to him, and he just beat around the bush with 356. Again, he half-answered my question here by saying "Good cases, thought paths I can follow, solid reasoning". How am I supposed to know what you're talking about exactly? I can't just predict 100% what you're talking about when you're talking about stuff like that without post-quoting anything.

Either way, I assumed he was talking about the adilm case that Aster had and I answered accordingly in 359. In the next post he gives me some "are you a fucking time traveler?" bullshit because I didn't correctly predict what he was talking about.

Do you think the above is enough to kick in a frustration from someone? Do you think that's enough to trigger someone to calling someone "being fucking stupid", or "trash", or "garbage"? I didn't even pressure him that much and he got that frustrated. I honestly don't see a scenario where town would get this frustrated.

Town would have no problems whatsoever explaining something, town would never come up with just "good cases, good reasoning" and leave it at that.

I asked MG28 for explanation on something earlier this day, this is how she responded:

@MotherGothel28

:

Solid town base - MotherGothel (me), Gorny

What I find odd here is, while yes this statement was early in the game, most of Gorny's posts prior to this were just meaningless back-and-forth filler with you.

However, you pointed it out again further into the game here:

I just re-read through the entire thread and I don't currently stand anywhere else than I currently did. I do tend to have issues reading back (mostly due to overthinking) and am far superior at reading things that are currently going on which I'm finding difficult since I feel like no one has really posted much since I've joined and some people have just been AWOL.

I really do think people should look more into my post about Gorny. He had 2 conflicting reads about 2 different people within the same post, I don't see how someone sided with the town could pull that off. It's not something you just forget.

To me it looks like someone who's mafia that wrote random reads to try and stand-in with the crowd.

I definitely took notice of your points about Gorny, and I think they are good. Over all I felt like he started off feeling pretty town, but the recent interactions have me feeling less so.

Can you explain to me why Gorny was in your top town-reads?

As you said, it was pretty early in the game, so I didn't have a lot to go on for anyone yet, in my opinion the game did really get going until just before GreyICE showed up.

With the amount of info I had, I felt like Gorny (awkward what my phone wants to autocorrect that's to...) was starting off good. He was giving opinions on pretty much anything, didn't hesitate to give a read, and seemed pretty relaxed over all. Those are things that I find pretty town, especially when scum can slide by in that early phase with just fluff along with everyone else.

Honestly, I made the mistake of feeling too comfortable with my early read and didn't look more closely until people (especially you) started to point out his slips in alignment reads.

I'm very impressed with that btw, and your logical, not fanatic, case on Gorny has earned a lot of trust from me, especially since I don't see scum starting a train like that on a teammate when there was little to no heat prior to it.

Did I have a problem with this? No. She answered what I wanted, and I was content with that.

On the other hand, GreyICE beat around the bush when I asked him why Aster was "obvious town" to him, faked frustration for 2-3 pages in an attempt to dodge the question. When he finally answered, I find out that Aster was "obvious town" based off of one post. And he still refused to answer why the other 2 people in his "obvious town" list are "obvious town" despite me asking several times.

He tried to pull the whole "hypocrisy" card to try and put pressure on me when he knew he didn't have an answer as to why those 2 were obvious town. His answer on why Aster was obvious town was incredibly weak (it was one fucking post on the third page). Notice how I answered his question regardless, and he still couldn't explain why those 2 were obvious town? Therefore proving he's a hypocrite himself by his logic.

In short: It honestly doesn't make sense for someone sided with town to say "no thanks" and get this mad when someone asks you to explain something. Town can get frustrated, yes, but it's usually when something really stupid happens or other things not anywhere near related to what happened. I asked for explanation, he beat around the bush, so I put pressure on him for him to answer because I wanted an answer. You can't just say "X is Y" without reasoning and not expect to be asked about it, and when you are asked about it: you can't just say "no thanks, you're trash" as a reasoning to not answer. That's not genuine at all.

[cd]

GreyIce is town, she doesn't even realize Draynth is dead, 354.

Not buying this at all. Seems faked as fuck. He did it in 350 too. What motive does town have to not check the NK before making a post?

[cd]

"Oh yeah, I'm not going to check the NK so that I can waste my time figuring out if the person who died is town or scum!"

Town would never do this. Town would check who the NK was on to get better reads and grasp on what's going on.

[FancyPants]

The thing is, town reads are often quite hard to justify specifically. It can be as simple as tone or effort.

While it may be logical for a townie to just produce reads acting illogically isn't equal to being scummy. Unfortunately townie's make imperfect plays all the time, especially when it's informed by emotion.

Now I'm not completely convinced that GreyIce is town but I'm even less convinced he's scum. I've played enough mafia to see plenty of people have big emotional blow-outs, I think scum GreyIce just gives you reasons for the "town" reads to appease you rather than blowing up.

It probably doesn't help that I agree with GreyIce about Aster for basically the same reason, tone and thought process basically led me to town read him early. Sometimes it's important to revisit these early reads but I couldn't tell you off the top of my head why I feel that way.
In the end it's your job to convince GreyIce - Aster is scum rather than his job to convince you he isn't.


In short while I don't wholly approve or agree with GreyIce, I'm not seeing serious scum motivation in what he's done.
For me - being emotional and attacking people isn't scummy, scum tend to prefer appeasement and laying low to making a scene. He could be scum, I could very easily be wrong, but I'm not seeing the current case. I think it's possible you want him to be scum, but just because someone rubs you the wrong way doesn't make them scum.

I still think scum are in adlim/xa light, mothergothel would be my outside shot.

[FancyPants]

You're saying that basically scum are more likely to get frustrated quicker, and I'm not sure I disagree, one of the most frustrating things in mafia is to be falsely accused.
In my experience scum tend to either give up/post less when someone is on to them, or expend a lot of effort trying to talk their way out of it.

[FancyPants]

As for what motive scum have to not check who got NK'ed, it is an interesting one, and I would like GreyIce to explain.
It's such a dumb gambit though I'm not sure scum-GreyIce would try it.

Our unconfirmed Newbie Adlim already "tried a similar gambit" earlier in the game with regards to the tags under people's names. Very few people bought that, including GreyIce. So he decides now he's going to do something similar in the hopes that we magically forgive him...

Look it's possible but I think the simplest answer here is that GreyIce was careless and misread who was killed. The best scum answer that I can think of is he got drunk and changed his kill and then forgot about it (something I would probably do).

[cd]

In the end it's your job to convince GreyIce - Aster is scum rather than his job to convince you he isn't.

This is a huge misconception though. I voted Aster early in this day in an attempt to pressure him, not because I thought he was scum. I wasn't trying to convice GreyICE of anything, I was just trying to get his explanation behind his reads.

As for what motive scum have to not check who got NK'ed, it is an interesting one, and I would like GreyIce to explain.
It's such a dumb gambit though I'm not sure scum-GreyIce would try it.

Our unconfirmed Newbie Adlim already "tried a similar gambit" earlier in the game with regards to the tags under people's names. Very few people bought that, including GreyIce. So he decides now he's going to do something similar in the hopes that we magically forgive him...

Look it's possible but I think the simplest answer here is that GreyIce was careless and misread who was killed. The best scum answer that I can think of is he got drunk and changed his kill and then forgot about it (something I would probably do).

Here's the thing with this though:

The first thing I would look at during a new day as town is the NK because if I'm going to read back and ISO people, I'd like to know who's dead so I don't waste my time reading them to figure out if they're scum or town. There is no benefit for town to not look at the NK. It's free information that's sitting right there.

It is possible that adilm did a gambit with the tags under people's name things, but it's also just as likely that it was just a newb-play.

GreyICE could easily be scum here, pretending he didn't know who died and saying "Draynth is town" in the hopes that someone like you comes up with "GreyICE didn't even know who died, he can't be scum!". It makes a lot more sense than him being town and just "missing" the NK.

[FancyPants]

You're saying that basically scum are more likely to get frustrated quicker, and I'm not sure I disagree, one of the most frustrating things in mafia is to be falsely accused.
In my experience scum tend to either give up/post less when someone is on to them, or expend a lot of effort trying to talk their way out of it.

"Not sure I agree

[cd]

You're saying that basically scum are more likely to get frustrated quicker, and I'm not sure I disagree, one of the most frustrating things in mafia is to be falsely accused.
In my experience scum tend to either give up/post less when someone is on to them, or expend a lot of effort trying to talk their way out of it.

"Not sure I agree

I think it is a lot more likely for a solo scum in this situation to get frustrated quicker, yes. I didn't "falsely accuse" him, I asked him for his reads. I don't see where you're getting this from.

[cd]

...GreyICE could easily be scum here pretending he...

Correction: removed comma.

Also: Calling him scum for refusing to explain his reads and for what-I-see-as faked frustration isn't "falsely accusing" him. He did refuse to explain his reads with his "no thanks" and he did completely dodge my request for explanation for 3 pages and even called me hypocrite for not answering one of his question. I even answered it after that, and he still couldn't explain his 2 other reads.

He was very obviously trying to redirect the pressure onto me since he didn't have a reason behind the other 2 "obvious town" reads.

[FancyPants]

In the end it's your job to convince GreyIce - Aster is scum rather than his job to convince you he isn't.

This is a huge misconception though. I voted Aster early in this day in an attempt to pressure him, not because I thought he was scum. I wasn't trying to convice GreyICE of anything, I was just trying to get his explanation behind his reads.

As for what motive scum have to not check who got NK'ed, it is an interesting one, and I would like GreyIce to explain.
It's such a dumb gambit though I'm not sure scum-GreyIce would try it.

Our unconfirmed Newbie Adlim already "tried a similar gambit" earlier in the game with regards to the tags under people's names. Very few people bought that, including GreyIce. So he decides now he's going to do something similar in the hopes that we magically forgive him...

Look it's possible but I think the simplest answer here is that GreyIce was careless and misread who was killed. The best scum answer that I can think of is he got drunk and changed his kill and then forgot about it (something I would probably do).

Here's the thing with this though:

The first thing I would look at during a new day as town is the NK because if I'm going to read back and ISO people, I'd like to know who's dead so I don't waste my time reading them to figure out if they're scum or town. There is no benefit for town to not look at the NK. It's free information that's sitting right there.

It is possible that adilm did a gambit with the tags under people's name things, but it's also just as likely that it was just a newb-play.

GreyICE could easily be scum here, pretending he didn't know who died and saying "Draynth is town" in the hopes that someone like you comes up with "GreyICE didn't even know who died, he can't be scum!". It makes a lot more sense than him being town and just "missing" the NK.

Yeah I know you weren't really big on the Aster case, but my impression of the interaction is that you asked GreyIce for his reason for the read, which he did give you here 356, the posts from 359 are basically just a slight misunderstanding of what each other are saying, once the first vaguely threatening post happens soon after your entire interaction is tainted. After that point it became personal.

As to the bolded part about the "gambit" I absolutely agree that that is the first thing I look at, but carelessness isn't a scum tell. GreyIce is in multiple games, and has been somewhat distracted this whole game.
I think it's entirely possible it was a careless mistake RATHER than a scum-gambit when such gambit's usually don't work and one such gambit has already been viewed with scepticism.

In fact in general when people "town-slip" like this it is viewed with massive amounts of distrust but for me tends to be genuine.

In short I agree it's fakable I don't really see scum-GreyIce thinking such a gambit would work. It also doesn't read fake, it reads as GreyIce genuinely concerned with Draynth scummyness.

...GreyICE could easily be scum here pretending he...

Correction: removed comma.

Also: Calling him scum for refusing to explain his reads and for what-I-see-as faked frustration isn't "falsely accusing" him. He did refuse to explain his reads with his "no thanks" and he did completely dodge my request for explanation for 3 pages and even called me hypocrite for not answering one of his question. I even answered it after that, and he still couldn't explain his 2 other reads.

He was very obviously trying to redirect the pressure onto me since he didn't have a reason behind the other 2 "obvious town" reads.

I'm not saying you're falsely accusing him, but from a town-GreyIce perspective you are, which can lead to frustration. Before that when you were just asking for reads things got super heated, and GreyIce got emotional, I've already stated why I don't think that's scummy.

[cd]

From his POV, I still shouldn't be "falsely accusing" him since he knows he didn't explain his reads to me. He specifically said "no thanks", but this conversation is pointless either way.

[FancyPants]

From his POV, I still shouldn't be "falsely accusing" him since he knows he didn't explain his reads to me. He specifically said "no thanks", but this conversation is pointless either way.

Even that, do you think scum say "no thanks" when asked a question?
Correct play - probably not, scum play - I'm doubtful. At that stage he was obviously already done with the interaction.

[cd]

Considering he's solo scum and obviously frustrated - yes. I think I called him out on bullshit reads and he just didn't have an answer.

Counter-question: Do you think town would say "no thanks" when you asked a question?

[cd]

Town's job is to explain their reads logically. It doesn't have to be a wall of text, or anything lengthy. It can be something very simple, but you need references. You can't just say "X is Y cause good cases"; it's meaningless to anyone but you. Saying "no thanks" goes against all of that.

Scum's job is to blend in. Look at what Gorny did on day 1, he gave bullshit reads and contradicted himself. He tried to blend in but failed. It was a huge fuck-up on his part, and I think that would be enough to leave the other scum in this game frustrated.

[FancyPants]

Considering he's solo scum and obviously frustrated - yes. I think I called him out on bullshit reads and he just didn't have an answer.

Counter-question: Do you think town would say "no thanks" when you asked a question?

I wouldn't but I'm unflappable, I wouldn't say it as scum either.

I just think a scum who is fearing for his life, is less likely to say it than then a frustrated townie, it's a comment that is almost designed to get your hackles up.

As I said you

could

be right, I'm not always right (just mostly always ).

What do you think of adlim and xa light btw? I'm still willing to talk about GreyIce but we might as well cover our bases.

[cd]

Considering he's solo scum and obviously frustrated - yes. I think I called him out on bullshit reads and he just didn't have an answer.

Counter-question: Do you think town would say "no thanks" when you asked a question?

I wouldn't but I'm unflappable, I wouldn't say it as scum either.

I just think a scum who is fearing for his life, is less likely to say it than then a frustrated townie, it's a comment that is almost designed to get your hackles up.

As I said you

could

be right, I'm not always right (just mostly always :lol: ).

What do you think of adlim and xa light btw? I'm still willing to talk about GreyIce but we might as well cover our bases.

I really do think adilm is town for right now. I didn't like his opener, but I really don't think he hammered his partner here. I think if adilm had voted earlier in the wagon, I would see him differently but it's the fact that he hammered it. If they were partner, he could have just waited for a claim for Gorny and potentially got the wagon to go another way if Gorny was ballsy enough to claim something like a PR. It just seems odd for him to just quick-hammer like that if he were to be his partner.

For XL, I don't have solid read on him. I do think I put too much focus on GreyICE today (still strongly believe he's scum here and will not be unvoting unless something drastic happens), and most of my focus yesterday was on lynching Gorny. I did put him in my scum pool early on the day {XL/GreyICE/MG28/Aster}, but that's because I town-read everybody else and that leaves those 4 for me to be scum.

[FancyPants]

Ok well at this stage I think I need more input from some of the other players (Aster/MG/Xa Light)

[cd]

You and I both.