2017 NFL Football

[drealmerz7]

ah, I hadn't realized he was injured much (not been watching for 2 years), that sucks! they should have definitely grabbed Kaep. There must be league pressure on teams not to hire him, that's messed up.

[TwoInAMillion]

I don't begrudge that Kaepernick really cares about social justice, but to me he only really took on the social justice mantle after his career took a down turn. He didn't seem to care about it during the Super Bowl against the Ravens. Also, I don't begrudge NFL franchises that don't want negative publicity on their club, and would rather their team be football focused than social justice focused.

[drealmerz7]

From my memory he sat very shortly after a specific incident, like maybe the Trayvon Martin shooting? So I didn't think it was career or game-timing based. My issue with what you say that TwoInAMillion is that it shouldn't BE negativey publicity, the issue is the media spinning it to be a bad thing. There are lots of players who do lots to raise social awareness and combat social issues and they use the franchises and the franchises use them as a backing supportive effort to do good and he and that should be no different, or if it is different, it should be by the extreme positivity in raising awareness. It doesn't need to be a negative distraction at all.

[T-Bone]

Yeah well...none of that really holds up.

He's consistently improved as a quarterback since 2012, so his skill set isn't the issue.

You could maybe argue that he was unhappy on a terrible team and decided to try something different...

But there is no evidence to suggest that any team would lose out by having him on the team. Former players have said he wouldn't affect locker room chemistry. Ticket sales are pretty much set in stone, ad revenue is set in stone. Fans who would get upset about his presence are probably not the fans spending money anyway.

The only explanation is that he is being punished for his cause itself.

[TwoInAMillion]

It is true that it shoudn't be negative publicity, but the way that Black Lives Matter approaches it, along with right wing groups like the KKK, makes it a negative issue. There has been a lot of progress in social justice in the last 40 years, and the way the far left and far right make it look, as well as the media, you would think it was the 50s or 60s all over again. I'm sure a lot of minorities don't feel like there's been a lot of progress, but that doesn't change the reality. To me, BLM is more interested in increasing their profile than creating actual change, or to have a constructive diologue with everyone, rather than creating racial stereotypes and divisions. If BLM was interested in Hispanic Lives or Asian Lives, I might be a little more empathetic. I want social justice as much as everyone else, but I recognize the progress that has been made, and think the wing groups are not helping their cause.

[T-Bone]

What does that have to do with blackballing a league average QB from the league?

[drealmerz7]

society has actually regressed A LOT in the past 17 years, but let's not derail this thread into a social issues thread

[T-Bone]

In my opinion it boils down to two things. The league doesn't want to ever talk about tough social issues....and they don't want players to start acting out of the norm. This is similar to how many organizations will fight tooth and nail if a player wants a significant raise. The league wants to stifle any sort of individualistic behavior.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

He wants $10 million, and a starting position. He's blackballing himself. If he was good enough to start, the off field stuff wouldn't be an issue.

[drealmerz7]

Okay so I know this is "old" now, but it's new to me.

I'm loving the point after try being moved back

I'm hating the touch back being moved to the 25

[T-Bone]

I don't know that any credible source has reported that that's the reason.

And even so, certainly he could start on a team like the Jets.

[PJ.]

@drealmers, you said that you're only talking about an individual player and an individual pay raise, but that's not how salaries work. That's actually the exact reason why companies tell you NOT to talk about how much you make because companies don't want you to know how much you are worth so they can give you less than you deserve. In sports, everything is publicized, so you know exactly how much someone is worth. So all these salaries are connected(just like the real world) so it's impossible for you to have the discussion about an "individual player" because that player sets a precedent, especially one that is a) the best player in a dying position and b) a hybrid athlete that is on the cutting age of how his position will be played in the future.

How did you feel about David Carr holding Oakland hostage at the beginning of the summer to become the highest player ever at the time? or the two guys who signed bigger contracts after saying they'd walk if they didn't get extended?

~~~~

Yeah well...none of that really holds up.

He's consistently improved as a quarterback since 2012, so his skill set isn't the issue.

You could maybe argue that he was unhappy on a terrible team and decided to try something different...

But there is no evidence to suggest that any team would lose out by having him on the team. Former players have said he wouldn't affect locker room chemistry. Ticket sales are pretty much set in stone, ad revenue is set in stone. Fans who would get upset about his presence are probably not the fans spending money anyway.

The only explanation is that he is being punished for his cause itself.

Ironic you started this post with "well none of that holds up" because nothing that came after it did either. He has NOT consistently improved since 2012, it's actually quite the opposite, he's regressed considerably since defenses started figuring out the read option. ALL his stats are down. He's being sack more, his QBR is lower, his average yards per attempt is way down, his accuracy is down below average. In fact, his career numbers look similar to Matt Moore's except he's considerably less accurate. The guy looks like a back up essentially(aside from probably having better stats than the VERY VERY worst of starters, here's looking at you, Bortles) and it takes looking no futher than one Tebow, Tim to understand why teams are hesitant to sign back up QBs that can't essentially become anonymous on the sidelines. Not only that, but he's a QB that requires a specific offense to operate(a spread that incorporates read options) so unless you're a)already running one or b) comfortable with installing one, it's gonna be bad fit. And on "he could start on the Jets/Browns" well yeah, he probably could, but both those teams are tanking. A tanking team doesn't want Kaepernick. Too expensive and too good. They want to accomplish two things, see if their young guy is the answer and lose a bunch of games. If he is the answer, than draft help, if he isn't then draft a new guy.

[T-Bone]

I was citing Cian Fahey's analysis of Kaep, which I trust, when I was saying he's gotten better.

But I can address one criticism easy. Of course, he needs a 'specific offense' to succeed! All Quarterback's do! Brady doesn't succeed in a read-option offense any more than Newton succeeds in a pocket-read offense.

[drealmerz7]

re: Ezekial Elliot :

I think it's pretty simple. There are people who are good at reading people, there are people who are great at reading people. Put me in a room with someone, let me have a 10 minute conversation with them and then I ask them 5 questions and I can more often than not tell you if they're lying. If I can't tell if they're lying or not, I can at least tell I can't tell. Then you've got lie detector tests. It could have been something as simple as Goodell going to Elliot and saying "are you willing to take a lie detector test?" and Elliot says "no" and Goodell says "okay then you're suspended" OR he could have even agreed to the test and failed. As much as people love to hate on Goodell, I think he's done a lot of great for the league and I trust him as commissioner to make good choices, not arbitrary ones.

[PJ.]

I was citing Cian Fahey's analysis of Kaep, which I trust, when I was saying he's gotten better.

The stats say he's wrong.

[T-Bone]

They don't. He was the 4th ranked QB last season in throws under 5 yards, 18th under 10...and 2nd best in interceptable balls, throwing just 2.11 such balls per 200 attempts to name a few.

[PJ.]

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... epCo00.htm

all the stats are down bro. i get your boy loves him, but all the numbers are down.

[TwoInAMillion]

How many snaps did he have last year.

[T-Bone]

I'd say read these which highlights some other stats.

http://presnapreads.com/2017/07/30/coli ... oe-flacco/

http://presnapreads.com/2017/06/27/coli ... o-winning/

Yeah, Cian is high on Colin, and that might turn people off. But the stats he cites tells the story of at the very least a league average QB who has shown the ability to get better.

Kaep lost more completions to receiver error than any other player in the league. He was 8th best at not running into sacks, league average on intermediate throws. These aren't stats of a bad quarterback.

Maybe you don't like Cian's visual scouting, but you can't argue with things like these.

[drealmerz7]

so it's impossible for you to have the discussion about an "individual player" because that player sets a precedent, especially one that is a) the best player in a dying position and b) a hybrid athlete that is on the cutting age of how his position will be played in the future.

First, he's not doing anything with precedence, many players have done what he's done before, but, wouldn't it be great if he set an example of "money doesn't matter as much as my doing the thing I love with people I care about" ? (again something that has been done before but could be done more and it could help towards a shift in mentality)

not really sure what your argument is or what you're trying to get at, as, my point still stands about him being greedy and valuing his ego and money more than doing good for his team

How did you feel about David Carr holding Oakland hostage at the beginning of the summer to become the highest player ever at the time? or the two guys who signed bigger contracts after saying they'd walk if they didn't get extended?

not familiar with these circumstances but I'm pretty sure my position would be the same for them as it is for Bell

[Lil Uzi Vert]

re: Ezekial Elliot :

I think it's pretty simple. There are people who are good at reading people, there are people who are great at reading people. Put me in a room with someone, let me have a 10 minute conversation with them and then I ask them 5 questions and I can more often than not tell you if they're lying. If I can't tell if they're lying or not, I can at least tell I can't tell. Then you've got lie detector tests. It could have been something as simple as Goodell going to Elliot and saying "are you willing to take a lie detector test?" and Elliot says "no" and Goodell says "okay then you're suspended" OR he could have even agreed to the test and failed. As much as people love to hate on Goodell, I think he's done a lot of great for the league and I trust him as commissioner to make good choices, not arbitrary ones.

I really don't like the way the NFL is heading. They are becoming this weird, jaded, reactionary enforcer out for justice for people that don't even watch the game at all. Meanwhile, they turn their backs on technology to protect old contracts, ignore medical research that screams that something is wrong, and are usually tone deaf on very important topics, i.e., Pink shit for a terrible charity, making the government pay for pre-game services, etc.

Goodell is a robot. The owners like robots. Robots make them cash. Problem is, eventually robots will kill everything good about the sport, and the fans will find something else. You look back at how dynamic and charismatic Pete Rozelle was, and how down to Earth and intelligent Paul Tagliabue was. Goodell is so far removed from either of those guys. It shows in his leadership.

[PJ.]

I'd say read these which highlights some other stats.

http://presnapreads.com/2017/07/30/coli ... oe-flacco/

http://presnapreads.com/2017/06/27/coli ... o-winning/

Yeah, Cian is high on Colin, and that might turn people off. But the stats he cites tells the story of at the very least a league average QB who has shown the ability to get better.

Kaep lost more completions to receiver error than any other player in the league. He was 8th best at not running into sacks, league average on intermediate throws. These aren't stats of a bad quarterback.

Maybe you don't like Cian's visual scouting, but you can't argue with things like these.

I'm not reading or looking at stats from your boy. Sorry. Reliable stats sites only.

[T-Bone]

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... epCo00.htm

all the stats are down bro. i get your boy loves him, but all the numbers are down.

Hold on...you're citing things like....yards and accuracy? Because I'm citing stats that break that down. No QB lost more completions to receiver error than Kaep, for example.

[T-Bone]

LOL "I'm not reading anything that might show me that I am wrong"

Okay, we're done here.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

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