Mini Normal 1946 | Classic Hits | Town Victory!

[Thor665]

If you say so.

humaneatingmonkey

Also, I'm in Venice Florida, so I'm about 8 hours from direct Irma hit, so...y'know, maybe don't expect much from me in the next 48 hours?
I already V/LAed with the mod, but just so you guys know also.

[Thor665]

Vote: humaneatingmonkey

[Thor665]

Ah. It's because the team is WhyMafia, Mulch, and someone who's gonna bus WhyMafia upon entrance.

You mean like you did?

[Thor665]

I'm still back on Page 7, but I'm already looking at my tabs and figure I should post at least some things so the wall doesn't become too obnoxious.

Robbnva has requested replacement. Searching now.

I hate to say it but I think that in all likelihood a chance of a town win just went up lol

By saying this, are you claiming Robbnva's slot as town?
Why? Like, he literally has no town vibes worth speaking of, and you're cracking a joke that requires him to be town - what's up?

Randomly voting people at d1 SOD. I know what it means, IDK what it stands for. I ate a word there.

and yeah I agree this is very worrying. I'd be scumreading me too I guess...

People who actually vote randomly in RVS don't understand RVS.

VC 1.03

humaneatingmonkey

(5): WhyMafia, Thor665, Mulch, BlueBloodedToffee, fykus

L-2

Considering my current reads, this tells me to consider lynching Mulch, BBT, or Fykus.

This doesn't seem natural. It makes me think of "WTF I'm caught for BS reasons"

Because...town never react like that?

VC 1.04

Havo

(5): Misère, Toranaga, humaneatingmonkey, WhyMafia, Chip Butty

L-2

With my current reads this one makes me want to lynch...no one, which is frustrating because I really like my current reads.
But I'd wager there's one scum in there somewhere voting or voted.
Looking at my weakest reads - Misere or maybe...Havo/Toranaga. But that wagon is very frustrating to look at.

[Thor665]

You seem rather concerned about defending yourself and trying to undermine people's reads on you, and don't seem that interested in looking for scum.

VOTE: Havo

L-1.

I feel better about my reads from that last wagon discussed in my last post now.

Unvote: humaneatingmonkey
Vote: Skitter

"I seem rather concerned about defending my self"

BECAUSE I WAS BEING ACCUSED OF NOT DEFENDING MYSELF!!

I have to say, Havo is owning this defense.

Hello? Why do we have Havo at L-1 7 pages in when there clearly softing PR. Get off this wagon the fact it picked up so fast with no counter wagon is red flags all over.
If you think Havo is scum we can come back later. Let's vote the band wagon jumper.

VOTE: Chip

How is chip a wagon jumper but skitter (the one that put havo at l-1is not?

VOTE: skitter

I never said he wasn't I was just picking a wagon I thought I could get going.
But since you're helping
VOTE: Skitter

I don't like the MariaR slot much, and don't like the way this shift happened, but agree the Skitter slot looks bad.
Let's test.

@MariaR - why did Chip look like an easier wagon to get going than one on Skitter to you making you choose it instead of Skitter?

My tone is probably coming off horrible because it's Sarcasm. I honest to God can't believe how people are spitting out reads, serious reads, 18 hours into the game. If anyone wants to post reads fine, have at it, but don't accuse me of being scum just because I haven't posted a facking read list by hour 36.
And the claim's not bullshit.

As a defense for the fast read people.
What makes a read need to come from a post 18 days in as opposed to 18 hours or 18 minutes or 18 seconds? Isn't a read simply someone doing something that you personally get a feel about, or have a history of understanding about?
I've played in quick games with 24 hour days.
I've played live with ten minute days.
I've had good reads in all of them.
I've had bad reads in all of them.
Time seems to be an unconnected element.
So don't knock it.

That's not why I scumread you, and the claim is bullshit 101. You heavily softed power role, I want you to claim. Now.

Do you scumread Havo for any substantive reasoning *besides* his claim?
Because if no - I fail to see the point of the claim demand.
If yes, describe it and as long as I buy it I'll support the claim.

But there are always people who will soft and derp in early gameplay, and though I dislike it, it's not a valid logic to demand full claims on.

[Thor665]

Caught up.

Happy with my vote and stances from above.

[Thor665]

I don't you should call it a test if you wanna test me

Yet, somehow I think it will work regardless.

I voted chip cause he voted me if stood out

plus skit was the Robb spot so I didn't want to at first but if I can get a wagon going by all means

I bolded part of this - could you rephrase it? Maybe I'm being dense but I actually have no idea what you're saying.
Why did you not want to vote the Robb slot - you townread it for some reason? You clearly were fine voting it later, so what changed?

[Thor665]

Chip voted me and it stood out so me being bias felt the want to vote back a bit if I could start a counter wagon
Didn't want to vote Robb slot because the tone felt like town Robb and so did the mod question.
It's the only reason id unvote skit

This kind of curls my toes - why are you voting a town read?

L - 1.

This is where I'd normally say go ahead and lynch me, cause town could do worse.

But this time town could literally NOT do worse.

Lynching me is the worst thing town could do.

PR slip?

If you think it's a PR slip, why would you point it out?

[Thor665]

It wasn't a strong townread, Nothing was that early in the game for me.

If it was strong enough to not want to vote him, why would someone else voting him no longer make it strong enough to not want to vote him?
I don't feel like this is a strange idea from my end, I'm weirded out that you're acting like it's normal to do what you did.

Uh, ever heard of counter claims? If nobody cc-ed then yeah i would remove my vote.

Statistically any given mafia fakeclaim in a non-Open has a good chance of not generating a direct counter claim.
There are a lot of roles out there.
There are a lot of roles that can be considered 'strong'.
I fail to see the point in this logic - mulch has some logic with his 'locks down claim' desire, not that I agree that matters particularly, but yours seems weaker yet. Like, a mafia roleblocker would probably be served better by knowing his exact role than town at this time.
And still no one is particularly describing how scummy he actually is.
If he needs to full claim then you ought to have enough votes to put him on L-1, so do that.
If you can't, then he shouldn't claim.
We're wasting precious air with a meaningless side debate. Move on or get votes on him by describing how he's scum.

In other news - what do you think of the idea of lynching Skitter or MariaR?

[Thor665]

I mean, I don't want anyone to actually soft claim or hard claim in D1 because we need help from the power roles and we can't really have an advantage against the mafia if our power role players die.

Let me try that again...

What you are not understanding but which i have already pointed put is that town.havo hal already made himself a prime NK target by softing he is the strongest town PR.

Let me try this;

If he's a powerful investigative role - scum's best option is to use PRs that will effect his investigation (e.g. roleblock) because he will likely be protected.
If he is a powerful protective role scum's best option is to kill him.

So why should we help scum sort their best play?

Describe why he's scum or this conversation should die in a fire.
A full claim without L-1 is derp.

[Thor665]

Longer deadlines = more discussion which only benefits town.

Both this statement and Mulch's are actually both true and false, and are a playstyle preference that both of you are acting like is a scumtell for the other.
Let's vote Skitter more.

I need to look with fresh eyes later, but open in principle to lynching either. Will return to this later.

I look forward to this, I would find both wagons more useful than the Havo meaningless side quest we went on.

This explains Mulch continuing to push me.

Outing the town Cop is worth it for scum on Day 1.

Congrats Scum.

You were the one who outed.
Both soft and hard.
And hard while having someone stepping up to clear defend the situation. You rushed it. I will agree their angle was bad, but don't let that blind you to noting that you also could have played it better.

I agree with you that Mulch's play was 'meh' but I disagree with you that it was clearly scum inclined.
What's your take on MariahR or Skitter?
I'd love to get more Skitter votes right now, and I'd take MariahR as a decent compromise present.

This is fine from a Havo is town perspective, but from a Havo is scum perspective the point was to deny him the shelter of a vague false claim.

The vague soft claim should have been assessed on whether he was playing pro town or scum - not as an inherent reason to force a claim in a vacuum.

@Thor: Incidentally, why did you take that hard Havo is town perspective there? Did you hardread him as town?

I didn't take a hard Havo is town (though I did think he was town, and frankly think both you and Mulch could have read him as such if you weren't being blind/being scum).
I took a hard 'this is not pro-town play, but is pro-scum play, and here is why (with specific examples)' to counter the 'lol, soft is pro-scum needs to go hard, yar!' theory which was, incidentally, the *entire* case against him - which makes no sense.

no idea who the wolves are but it's not havo

What's your take on Skitter and MariahR?

[Thor665]

My message here is if your a Town Player, then don't do Anti-Town shit at ALL. It only causes confusion. And that only helps Scum. This is how town loses games.

You keep calling it anti-town.
Does that mean you're aware of the difference between anti-town and pro-scum?
Because if you are, I don't get your point.
And if you can't tell the difference, I'm sorry to say that you should get better. I agree that it is obnoxious that town do anti-town stuff, but that's part of the game.

"If you want people out of this wagon, you should begin to explain why a Loyal Town Cop is a perfect fit with a Miller. If you even make the slightest sense, I'll reconsider."

@Havo

I canliterally think of multiple reasons for it.\
When you feel you've mined him for enough info feel free to ask me.

My second matter of note is this;

ANY COP SHOULDN'T COUNTERCLAIM TILL DAY 2.

My third point is this - if you believe the Miller claim, why wouldn't you believe a Cop is in the setup?

My fourth point is - could you vote Skitter please? Even if Havo is scum he probably has 2 partners, so why not figure them out while we wait for Day 2?

The fact he kept highlighting the fact he was being pressed unfairly. It felt/feels like complaining, annoyed scum. Which I explained. Please read better so I don't have to answer thinsgs like this.

My issue here is this; He WAS being unfairly attacked, and BOTH town and scum are likely to respond negatively to that.
I literally just finished a game (as town) where a certain player (also town) literally made up a case on me, and then said I was scum after I called him on his BS.
So...?

And then the bad claim happened. You ALWAYS push for the claim in this situation. You don't let scum escape with this and get out of a wagon without even claiming their role.

The claim is bad.
I don't care.
He's not a smart lynch today.
And that's not a functional scum case unless we get a cop claim which is STUPID to try to do right now.
Lynch one of his partners.
How about Skitter?

[Thor665]

Alright, on to looking for another scum, however my vote is parked on Mulch until I find a scummier person than him.

How is Mulch scummy exactly?
How is Skitter less scummy than Mulch?

[Thor665]

Read his ISO and my case on him?

I had Robb on my lean town list until Skitter replaced in, yeah skitter looked scummy but I still need more posts from him to analyze. Skitter is on my lean scum list while Mulch and Chip is on my strong scum list.

That's weak if you can't describe it in one sentence you're wasting everyone's time.

Why did Robb lean town to you exactly?

Tornaga, if you read what he paraphrased the utility of his role, it doesn't make sense with the miller claim. The miller returns as a mafia, while the loyal cop only tells who doesn't belong to the alignment. The miller belongs to this alignment anyway, so normal cop would have been more than okay. I don't think the setup would have been approved otherwise but I'm in no authority to say that. Just that it's not logical.

I addressed your odd tunnel of believing this - why aren't you addressing me on my thoughts?
Your thoughts aren't particularly logical, yet you keep acting like they are so why not at least counter my thoughts instead of ignoring them?

Okay, have read through the new stuff.

@Thor: you are pushing a skitter lynch quite hard. Could you please summarise the case against him, as you see it?

The Skitter case is the post Mulch pointed out paired with the wagon on Havo being filled with and on slots I otherwise townread more. Seriously, you think 0 scum voted in that one? *especially* if Havo is town but even if he's scum? Nah.

@Thor/Mulch:

What's the difference between 154 and this:

See, the thing for me isn't just the lack of reads, it's that you don't seem to be interested at all in asking people questions about their posts or scumhunting in general. Your focus seems to be entirely on the votes on you and how unfair it all is, and that seems scummy to me. After 250+ votes, are you really saying you've seen nothing worth following up on?

That Chip otherwise looks townish even if he's pushing bad logic, also he doubled down on the bad logic while you sat back and let other people push the agenda while keeping your hands clean.

pro town move my ASS!

ehhh I kinda like skitter too lol

can we just lynch misere please

Your Skitter read is out of nowhere and I strongly disagree. After watching your weak case on Misere I am almost scared to ask but...what was in Skitter's posts that looked town to you?
Because I'd much rather have your vote back on Skitter.

[Thor665]

The Skitter case is the post Mulch pointed out paired with the wagon on Havo being filled with and on slots I otherwise townread more. Seriously, you think 0 scum voted in that one? *especially* if Havo is town but even if he's scum? Nah.

@Chip

[Thor665]

The Skitter case is the post Mulch pointed out paired with the wagon on Havo being filled with and on slots I otherwise townread more. Seriously, you think 0 scum voted in that one? *especially* if Havo is town but even if he's scum? Nah.

@Chip

Yeah, it seems a bit thin. I don't think #154 was all that bad, since i was thinking the same thing. As for the Hava bw thing i think I'll delay judgement and see if he makes it through the night. Besides, i liked my interaction with Skitter recently, even when she was voting me. It kind of felt honest. Not buying, at this point in time.

What's so thin about it?
There was a wagon up to L-1.
With the current claims we have it's pretty safe to assume Havo is town, and even if you think he's scum he was probably bussed.
So who is the most likely scum on that wagon in your opinion and why?

Thor, to answer why I think Rob is lean town, this is one good post. It indicates that Rob was investigating into Mulch's game to see some meta, even though Rob believes that meta is garbage it still can be at use. I have been in a few games on this site and I think I have seen one or two games where someone posted their old games and someone would comment on that and investigate on it, and turned out town. I don't think the scums would investigate because it would be a waste of time? Just based on what I have seen, towns investigate old games.

You and I look at that post and see opposite things.
Yeah, we can tell he clicked on the link - but by him claiming the game was still active (which means he didn't actually do anything than glance at the title and *certainly* didn't look at the last few pages, it shows he didn't read it at all.
Which means he wasn't actually doing investigation - he was just looking for an excuse to attack Mulch's stance.
So why does that town ping you?
It scum pings to me.

Rob doesn't want to base meta for his reads because they can throw people off. However the last sentence gave me a feeling that he might try and see some points of a strong argument that involves meta, however Mulch's argument with meta was weak to Rob because he said that mulch only seen whymafia one game, however Mulch said there's more? thats not the point anyway, he doesn't want to rely on meta, and if its meta, it better be a damn good connection.

He calls Mulch's meta case garbage (without understanding it or doing any research).
He then even tries to weaken it further by claiming that 'meh, only one game' somehow weakens an already weak read further (without actually doing much analysis of Mulch's general experience with WhyMafia.
In other words, he's taking a lot of effort to attack someone town reading someone else.
That's more likely to come from scum than town in my opinion, and even if you generally disagree it's hardly an impressive town tell and is assuredly not showing any open mindedness from Robb's part (who was even claiming Millers are so rare Why *must* be scum because...rare!).

[Thor665]

Tornaga, if you read what he paraphrased the utility of his role, it doesn't make sense with the miller claim. The miller returns as a mafia, while the loyal cop only tells who doesn't belong to the alignment. The miller belongs to this alignment anyway, so normal cop would have been more than okay. I don't think the setup would have been approved otherwise but I'm in no authority to say that. Just that it's not logical.

I addressed your odd tunnel of believing this - why aren't you addressing me on my thoughts?
Your thoughts aren't particularly logical, yet you keep acting like they are so why not at least counter my thoughts instead of ignoring them?

@humaneatingmonkey

I'm pretty sure people talking to each other and discussing thoughts is half the game.

Tacos please respond to mis
Anyone feeling a taco wagon?

Not really.
He isn't overawing me with town vibes, but he's assuredly not in my top three scum thoughts either.
Do you oppose a Skitter wagon?

[Thor665]

Okay?

[Thor665]

I oppose a skitter lynch

For any specific reason(s)?

@Thor:

That Chip otherwise looks townish even if he's pushing bad logic, also he doubled down on the bad logic while you sat back and let other people push the agenda while keeping your hands clean.

I like Chip more after talking with him last night, specifically because of 612. I disagree with his many of his reads, but I understand where he's coming from when making them. I also don't think scum would admit to scumreading someone literally because they found them annoying lol.

I think my earlier dislike of him came from a fundamental difference in how we treat early-game PR softs/claims. I strongly believe that a claimed PR should never be the lynch day 1; if they don't get themselves killed, we can usually figure out if they're lying with a couple of days of results. On my homesite, pushing for the lynch of a claimed PR early game is a fairly reliable scumtell, but I think site meta is different here.

That is an impressive amount of defense to me saying I don't scumread him after you asked me why I didn't scumread him yet scumread you.

Where/how did I let other push agenda while keeping my hands clean?

Since I literally brought that up in the post you're quoting, and did so specifically as regards the push on Havo - let's go with the wild and crazy notion that I think you did it in the push on Havo.
Why are we playing empty twenty questions?
Am I being that confusing and unclear all of a sudden?

[Thor665]

The Skitter case is the post Mulch pointed out paired with the wagon on Havo being filled with and on slots I otherwise townread more. Seriously, you think 0 scum voted in that one? *especially* if Havo is town but even if he's scum? Nah.

This is atrocious

Doesn't stop it from being true just because you think it sounds ugly.
It holds true in basically every game, every lynch, ever. The bell curve has scum on wagons.

also he doubled down on the bad logic while you sat back and let other people push the agenda while keeping your hands clean.

What do you mean by this?

I mean what I said - Skitter supported the wagon but didn't do any pushing of it.
Does that make sense?

Also, as long as you're noticing me, I'd still love you to field my question about your joke when Robb replaced out, that required him to be town to make sense.
What was up with that?

[Thor665]

Doesn't stop it from being true just because you think it sounds ugly.
It holds true in basically every game, every lynch, ever. The bell curve has scum on wagons.

That's just false. The only reason your slightly correct in this is because on a

in a six person sample in general

I

think

due to probability there is likely one scum?

But the fact it was "easy" or on Havo or early or w/e has nothing to do with this

.

I bolded the part you're "disagreeing" with me on and would note that I agree with it.
In fact I never suggested any of those things had anything to do with scum being on the wagon or not.
So...what is your issue with what I said?

No, it dosen't. Skitter pushed it to L-1, taking all of the heat and responsbility for taking one of the biggest steps to the lynch.

If you say so.
I didn't notice anyone besides me taking issue with the L-1, but maybe I missed all the attention he got.[/sarcasm]

It was simply because there is a high chance he was a villager, mate. Based on the fact that there are more town than scum...

So...you didn't have an opinion on him being town/scum but made a joke based on his alignment 'just because'?
That feels unlikely to me, I don't think I'd make that joke.
Have you done this sort of thing before?

[Thor665]

The issue is that your trying to say their had to be scum on Havo's wagon, which is bad. It's pinging me in the sense that your trying to overjustify it instead of just saying, here let's take a random 6 players and someone has to be in it, your trying to make it seem like there have to be scum in the Havo wagon in particular, which is just false and slightly scummy

VCA is scummy now?

Go learn to play newb

Robb was already getting into his tunnely mode, it was a harmless joke, stop pressing on this or your getting into scummy territory.

Are you kidding me?
That's an utter BS defense and logic - naw, I think I'll keep that as an issue with you forever now,
Whatcha' gonna do? Scumread me for it?

[Thor665]

If nobody wants to do a Serge wagon, I can do a Maria wagon as a good second option. I also think a Maria scum flip would psuedo confirm Skittles as town

I'd support a MariaR wagon happily though fail to buy your theory clear in any way.

[Thor665]

If it's a slip - absolutely.
The only question is if it's a slip or not.

[Thor665]

fail to buy your theory

Which theory?

The one where you think Maria is unlikely to be bussing/distancing.

[Thor665]

That's an utter BS defense and logic - naw, I think I'll keep that as an issue with you forever now,

LMAO I don't even know why I'm even humoring you with a "defense."

Your fine until you try to push on me with it, then we have a problem

I'm pushing you right now.
Do we have a problem?

If it's a slip - absolutely.
The only question is if it's a slip or not.

Slips don't exist and even if they did this isn't a slip

Slips absolutely exist.
I've been scum and slipped.
I've been town and used slips.
I know that since you maybe slipped it's important for you to advance this silly notion, but...nah.

[Thor665]

Scum don't leave votes on their partners and forget about it for days and just passively sit there waiting for them to be lynched lmao

How many examples of this do I need to show to have you admit that you don't know how the game works?
One?
Because it sounds like one.
Do we have a deal?

BTW please don't tell me you tried to do VCA without any flips

Yes, I actually do exactly that.
If you want to ignore wagons in your scumhunting that's your business - but until you explain why considering wagons is bad town play, I'll keep doing things the right way.

[Thor665]

I've been scum and slipped.

Link me

viewtopic.php?p=7729088#p7729088

I then correct it in my immediate next post.
Wow.
Amazing.
The impossible happened.
And I was there, and Firebringer was there, it was like a dream, it must have been a dream, because Mulch says it doesn't happen...

[Thor665]

Ok so you just don't know how mafia works, not my problem.

Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs boy.

[Thor665]

Perspective slips and flipless VCA yup that's brilliant

Why is it so important for you to desperately manage to suggest that I'm wrong on my reads?
If you're scum scared of me being accurate about you and maybe one additional buddy I totally get it.
But what's the point of being a whiny girl-childe about my reads if you're town?

Let's do Maria. I don't want Skitter today

Get some more votes on there and I will join you, but at the moment I'm on a rather large wagon and Skitter is riding quiet.

[Thor665]

I want to know why you're characterizing my push on Havo as 'pushing the agenda while keeping my hands clean', since no, you didn't explain that in that post. I literally voted him to L-1. How is that 'keeping my hands clean?'

Did you try to get Havo lynched? y/n - I answer this as 'yes'
Did you actually engage Havo/people and really explain your reasoning for why he is scum? y/n - I answer this as no, all you did was a weak case repeat of someone else and a vote.

That's what I'm talking about.
Do you understand what I'm saying now?

I didn't notice anyone besides me taking issue with the L-1, but maybe I missed all the attention he got.

In addition to you, Maria (164 and 181), Fykus (173), and Mulch (593) took issue with the L-1 as well, and that's literally what I'm being wagoned for.

Maria voted Chip.
Fykus voted you - but spent his time attacking Maria (which curls my toes a bit)
Mulch I can see claiming as a reaction, but he got distracted again in about ten more posts.

I'm also going to point out that you're pushing me while simultaneously pushing Mulch for possibly having a perspective slip by indicating that my slot is town. These two pushes don't exactly make much sense together.

If I was calling the two of you a scumteam, I would agree.
Thank you for pointing out that I'm being objective, not tunneling, and considering all possibilities to find scum?

[Thor665]

Nope, I said what I would do in the post before.

Imagine the scenes if I said I haven't read a single post in this game.

You'd be lying and we'd lynch you - what of it?

[Thor665]

Then I would presume you, for some reason, are deciding to play poorly and take pride in it for no reason other than to be a troll, and would blacklist you so I wouldn't need to deal with it in the future.
Are you doing that?

[Thor665]

Your plan is to "play" the game the same way a bot could?
That sounds boring.

[Thor665]

It sounds painfully boring, actually.
Even if you win, you'd get like zero pride from it because you did nothing - might as well just tell the mod what to do and leave the site for a few weeks then come back to your results.
Should we lynch you now to spare you and us the boredom of an unreadable derp slot?

[Thor665]

No, of course not. Unless you want to lynch town? Is that your win-con?

I've been struggling with Day 1s as of late and want to try something different. Also, Day 1s tend to last so much longer than they really need to - I'm hoping that by always joining the leading wagon we can have D1 over before the 40 page mark.

So your non-play plan is just for Day 1?
Good scum play, boring town play.

[Thor665]

Still trying to create doubt and throwing shade at me, I get the feeling he REALLY wanted my lynch to go thru.

It's actually why I think he's town.
I don't see scum derping in that hard on a PR, they'd be more subtle - like Skitter was.
That he so owed the push, makes me think he was town who is just oddly obsessive about the value of not allowing scum soft claims.
I'll agree that is play I disagree with, but I don't see it as likely scum play.
Thus it is anti-town.
But it is not particularly pro-scum.
Make sense?

Also, as far as your BBT issue goes - you just described why he is an optimal cop investigate.
Those are the slots you want to auto clear early - derp slots scum won't kill.
And if he's scum, huzzah.

[Thor665]

I Agree if he'd been the only one pushing hard, since Monkey and Mulch were pushing harder They were in the forefront, I see it as him taking advantage of that less in the spotlight position to try and push it through. Then he could always say, hey, I wansn't pushing nearly as hard as Mulch.

That's an interesting take, and I see where you're coming from, but if you take that as scummy wouldn't Skitter still be the more suspect pusher?

Investigating me is a waste.

No, you investigate waste of space slots.
You're admitting that you're playing in a manner that makes you unreadable and is a good playstyle for scum.
That makes you a good investigate.

If you want to change that - you should play a different way.

[Thor665]

That's fine - we aren't lynching him till then either, so it doesn't matter whether you wish to suspect him or not until then.

[Thor665]

Yes, I did, to the point that Havo himself says that my argument, at L-1, was the first 'decent accusation' against him (156).

Firstly - a case of 'not scumhunting' is one I'll have to agree to disagree with Havo on as far as its quality.
Secondly - no, you still didn't push him hard.

Maria voted me in 181, which, oddly enough, is why I linked that post. You're arguing that I opportunistically hopped on his wagon and hoped that other people would get called out for wagoning him. By putting him at L-1, I knew I would be taking the flak if I was wrong about him, which I was, and I immediately got wagoned for it. That's literally the opposite of 'keeping my hands clean'.

Maria tried to avoid voting you for odd reasons - true or false? Because the answer is true as far as i can see.
I also still don't see you claiming you put in work to get him lynched, which is still what I said you were trying to avoid. We're now into this 'flak' side debate, which I still don't think you absorbed a lot of either. Your example are three people besides me - one avoided voting you, one voted you while attacking someone else, one was Mulch the goldfish. Yeah - tons of assault there. Even if I agreed that was an amazing assault of power and conviction I'm not sur what it would prove. You did slip in lazily on the wagon while not pushing it.

I'm pointing out that you *are* ridiculously tunneled on me, to the point that some of your other pushes don't even make sense with your push on me.

You are claiming I'm tunneled and are using as evidence for it that my "other" pushes aren't making sense.
1. If I have "other" pushes how tunneled am I exactly?
2. Have I claimed you are scum with these "other" pushes? Because otherwise how is this an issue?
3. I still don't see the issue here.
4. You don't know what tunneling is.

So...?

[Thor665]

Why is it so important for you to desperately manage to suggest that I'm wrong on my reads?
If you're scum scared of me being accurate about you and maybe one additional buddy I totally get it.
But what's the point of being a whiny girl-childe about my reads if you're town?

@Mulch

[Thor665]

Why is it so important for you to desperately manage to suggest that I'm wrong on my reads?

If you're scum scared of me being accurate about you

and maybe one additional buddy I totally get it.
But what's the point of being a whiny girl-childe about my reads if you're town?

@Mulch

Bolded is false so no point in answering the question.

If you mean your theory on how to play mafia, yeah your bad.

So you think my playstyle is bad but my reads are fine?

What are you referring to in your underline. You've never said you scumread me except for the "perspective" slip. Why would I be scared if I'm scum of your reads if your not scumreading me?

I agree that you being scared of that doesn't make sense - but it makes more sense than just attacking my reads for no reason at all.
Which are you doing?

I wonder if Maria and Thor could be scum partners. Paranoia theory but thor says they "scumread" both Maria and Skitter yet only pushes Skitter even when Maria has a bigger wagon. And then if Maria flips scum they can be like "oh, I scumread them."

Thor can you link a recent scum game?

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=72267

[Thor665]

Secondly - no, you still didn't push him hard.

This is such bullshit, Skitter pushed the harder than anyone by putting them at L-1. Your tunnel of them is starting to turn scummy and they've refuted your arguements well

That is not bullshit, you man-child.
That is a difference of opinion about a vote being equivalent to a push.
Are we going to be doing this all game?
Because it is already very boring and annoying.

[Thor665]

I've been having problems getting emotionally invested in games so if your going to be insulting I'm not going to respond

You started the insult and the rampage of 'lawl y'don't know how to play!' so...fine? If you don't like insults don't start with insults.

I'm not attacking your reads lmao except your dumb Skitter one

And the read on you, which you claim me scumreading you deserves you to scumread me - as though that's a conversation.
And you actually haven't described how my read on Skitter is bad other than claiming I'm tunneling on him (which I'm not) and that VCA without flips is somehow impossible (which it isn't, it's just less accurate) so those are kind of stonewall conversation stoppers also.

How would you say your town game differs from your scumgame?

If I could describe any way it differed that could be reasonable and reliably spotted then I would change my scum game so that it would be impossible to spot the difference.

[Thor665]

Heck, you were just in a game with me where I was town, rb made a lot of claims about my meta - but when he actually finally looked at my town and scum games he dropped the case like a wet blanket.

You also saw me catch the scum team with my logic and VCA - so I have no idea why I'm having to deal with this much negativity from you.

[Thor665]

Why is it so important for you to desperately manage to suggest that I'm wrong on my reads?
If you're scum scared of me being accurate about you and maybe one additional buddy I totally get it.
But what's the point of being a whiny girl-childe about my reads if you're town?

@Mulch

This is where I'm still at with you.
Literally all you've done since I said it is call me stupid and threaten to scum read me.
Which is not pro-town behavior.

[Thor665]

And you actually haven't described how my read on Skitter is bad

672

That's you describing your case on him, not disabusing mine.

So thor, how do we catch you if your scum if you don't act any different?

Hopefully no one ever does. That's the point, isn't it?

VC posted. If everyone can use the vote tag that will make it so much easier for me to see your vote. If I missed any votes, please let me know.

Vote tags are new age and fill me with fear.

Unvote: Skitter
Vote: MariaR

Also

VOTE: MariaR

Just for Virtuoso

[Thor665]

@Mulch

Forgot about this, it will probably help;

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... arently.29

[Thor665]

@Mulch

Forgot about this, it will probably help;

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... arently.29

This actually didn't help... made me feel like this is a WIFOM.

I don't think you know what WIFOM is.

Maria or Miseré wagon>Fykus

Seconded.

VOTE: Misere

Seems I don't have a choice since I don't sr the other wagon.

Do you like the Misere wagon?
Because there are other places you could vote at this stage even in a survival concept.

I gotta say, Tora-MariaR-Havo wouldn't shock me.

BBT is being more enigmatic than I like.

Thor is emitting huge amounts of wind, without saying anything incisive or particurarly useful.

That scum team would absolutely shock me.

If you think I'm saying nothing new or useful and you were able to show (and I agree with) that Fykus is okay, I am kind of confused about how you rank my postings. Why don't you explain how I'm not saying anything?

[Thor665]

@Thor: It would probably be more useful to Town if you were to summarise the top 3 most useful / original / incisive things you have posted.

I started the raised issues with both Skitter and Maria.
I also was the first to describe actual reasons why Havo was town.

Now describe how I'm not offering original thoughts.

@Thor: A lot of your output just seems to be pissing contests over who has the maddest mafia skillz.

Literally that conversation only exists with Mulch, and I submit that he was the one who started it by suggesting I didn't know how to empty a boot of water with instructions written on the heel.
Can you describe who else I've done that with and/or how I'm trying to instigate those conversations?

[Thor665]

So, your POV is to Townread the big posters and attack the low-volume guys? That was pretty much my point.

This is a strawman of his stated position.
But even if it was exactly his position - what exactly is the issue there? On Day 1 I would dare suggest this is a strongly pro-town basic concept to use.

@Thor:

Okay, you got to 2 out of three. I'll read through to verify.

I actually listed 3, since I listed three names and three positions.

I don't think it matters who fired the first shot between you and Mulch. To be fair, it takes two, but Mulch has 196 posts to your 50, so he's had plenty of time to fit a lot other stuff in too.

Yeah, Mulch also usually posts 7 shorts posts with 7 quotes and I post one long one with 7 quotes, so...

Your penchant for contesting every little point to the bitter end makes me think you are Donald Trump irl.

And that effects my town/scum chances how exactly?
Also, the 'little' thing I'm currently digging on is asking you to back up the accusations you're making of me.
Which you keep not doing. Why is that?

[Thor665]

@Thor

If a monkey BBT or Mulch wagon became a thing I'd do backflips cheering.

I don't think you could get much traction on either Mulch or Monkey, but BBT looks perfectly ripe - why not vote someone you think is scum rather than your current empty survival vote?

[Thor665]

Cause BBT's wagon looked almost as easy as mine. It's my only worry with voting him.

Can you remind me why you scum read her?

I think it would be an outright statement, as I've not been asked yet.
But in short - it's info avoiding posting paired with empty opportunism.
To expand slightly - she's basically doing what BBT is doing, but is trying to not look like she's doing what BBT is doing.

This is the equivalent of vca with no flips. Let alone with flips (and I hate it then too)

No, actually, it is nothing like that.
Though i agree with you the confirmation bias is bad, I disagree with you on the VCA

I got prodded.

Am I still on the leading wagon? Fykus looks tempting

You are not.
Why don't you replace out - you should only ever replace into games if this is your boring lazy pro-scum play every Day 1.
I hope you're not town, because then I'll be okay still thinking positive things about you.
If you're town - please avoid any and all games I'm in as long as you are playing like this.

[Thor665]

Explain the case on mariar for me

Just did it for WhyMafia last page.
viewtopic.php?p=9605038#p9605038

[Thor665]

I'm good with it, this way we can blame the mod if town loses

[Thor665]

And I'm not taking blame for Havo's play. Even his hardclaim came way before intent. None of that was necessary. He played like scum and paid the price.

So bottle the mock outrage, huh?

Just so long as you take the blame for your own play

VOTE: Skitter

I'd like to do this now.
Same case as yesterday, but now with more VCA slots filled in so Mulch can whine about it, but not as soundly

[Thor665]

Why is in not possible for both Havo to have played poorly. and people insisting on a claim after a soft to have played badly all as one combined bad jelly sandwich?

In other news, I'm okay with the Misere wagon, but why push on that over Skitter?

[Thor665]

I really hope I wasn’t roleblocked last night

For that to happen scum would need a strongman or balls of steel.

Why is in not possible for both Havo to have played poorly. and people insisting on a claim after a soft to have played badly all as one combined bad jelly sandwich?

In other news, I'm okay with the Misere wagon, but why push on that over Skitter?

If it was a decent soft combined with townlike play, okay. But it wasn't. It was 'HEY, LOOK AT ME! I'M SOFTING!!!'

Literally don't care enough about your ego to have this debate until post game.
There is a game day happening - join it.

UNVOTE: skitter

Just noticed shes on vla

That makes her less scummy?

[Thor665]

Yeah we pushed Havo to hardclaim, but he could have blown us off until he got ontent. He caved way to easily, which means we lost a chance to see who would have jumped on his wagon. It was horrible play by him. Why are you defending it?

I agree that there is info there to be mined off a bad push.
Why are you claiming the wagon didn't go far enough to be mined though? His wagon got to L-2 or L-1.

[Thor665]

Yeah we pushed Havo to hardclaim, but he could have blown us off until he got ontent. He caved way to easily, which means we lost a chance to see who would have jumped on his wagon. It was horrible play by him. Why are you defending it?

I agree that there is info there to be mined off a bad push.
Why are you claiming the wagon didn't go far enough to be mined though? His wagon got to L-2 or L-1.

If it went to L - 1 that's not too bad, but i can't be bothered right now going back to check cos nothing hangs on it.

[Thor665]

Chip, your read on me has changed?

Is this the better more involved you?

[Thor665]

Unvote: Skitter
Vote: Misère

[Thor665]

I'm still happy with my Misere vote.
Humaneatingmonkey and Chip lost some town polish for me due to the last few pages.

[Thor665]

I honestly feel really bad for flipping on y'all yesterday. let's try lynching a wolf. it could be misère after all. why is she wolfy? why not fykus instead? why is chip villagery?

Misere is wolfy for offering little and being present on a town flip and being among the rather sketchy Havo pushers.
Fykus, well, there is his current hum drum, I suppose, but has at least felt more involved to me than Misere - this is basically a rotten tomato to a rotten egg, neither are pleasent, both stink, but I can say which I'd much rather be hit by.
Chip looked good Day 1. He looks pretty bad Day 2. I'm choosing to guardedly lean him as maybe a person I don't like rather than particularly obv. scum though, as most of what I don't like is his tone more than the specific thoughts he's pushing, and I did rather like him Day 1 - so the idea that he's more pissy today tends to softly suggest to me he's town as town is the one doing the sucking this game (also I think he is feeling raw about Havo and working overtime to suggest Havo is terrible to salve himself - which also feels like a potential town mindset)

What are your thoughts on the three?

[Thor665]

So Toranaga has been caught in a lie, and you're just going to disregard that?

love skitter's work. lock town.

How do you love it?
Skitter had me as middle of the road/nullish read - I'm hardly a small poster, I have lots of content to analyze, Skitter never iso-ed me at all in the wall, and I'm the biggest Skitter attacker, so you wouldn't think I'd be totally forgotten even considering that while iso-ing other people you'd at least see them debating with me about Skitter.

what role 'sends items' btw

I can think of at least three.

Ooooh, and now CHip and Tor are going to hug, make up, and hand me a Skitter vote?
I'm not sure what to do with being this excited.

Unvote: Misere
Vote: Skitter

[Thor665]

WM already confirmed him insomuch as he agreed he got 'something' and I'm fine with that.
So I don't know what we're waiting on.

The taco guy and monkey last couple of pages curled my toes for some reason, it felt like scum/scum talk. It's a gut feel but it's there and even on a second read I still get the feel and can't put my finger on it.

They should both vote Skitter to reassure me

[Thor665]

but kind of on the fence enough

WHat reads did you find me to be fence sitting on?

[Thor665]

I'd do Skitter or BBT very happily.
Would not do Toranaga.
Even if I loved Mulch's case - I'd want to do Fykus first of that pair.

[Thor665]

I mean those 20 points literally contain lies. Not just scummy behavior, lies

People keep using the word 'lies' in a way I don't agree with in this game.

[Thor665]

I mean those 20 points literally contain lies. Not just scummy behavior, lies

People keep using the word 'lies' in a way I don't agree with in this game.

Look at points 17-19 lol it is a flat out lie. Look at it. Also, why don't you love my case? You said "if"

17 easily has enough distance for it to be a change of opinion rather than a lie.
18 could easily simply be missing it - by the logic of this being a 'lie' then like half the thread was 'lying' when wanting to wait for WhyMafia to respond to your "fruit" I also don't see why scum would bother to lie about this intentionally, which means it's unintentional even if he is scum and thus not really selling me as a case.
19 is, again, not actually a lie - it might be showing scum intent, but that is different than a lie, and frankly as a scumtell I would think that would make most sense if he was your partner, not if he was scum trying to...what, soft distance from you?

Your case is, to me, a lot of hot air paired with a few interesting thoughts that make me go 'hurm' but most of those are connected up with the Fykus as partner idea, and if I buy into that it is pure derp to lynch Toranaga as the first of the pair. I don't consider myself to play in a pure derp fashion, ergo...'if'


I am now skipping all the pages from 66-this one because I'm really tired and I suspect I won't have missed much.
If I'm wrong, mention to me the insightful moment I overlooked.

Oh, apparently more full claiming after softing, yeah, probably didn't miss much
And, look, it's yet another slot I haven't been wanting to lynch - I kind of hope you're all town just so I'll be the only one allowed to go full salt in post game.

@Toranaga - what about BBT? You should also be willing to unvote to lynch him (frankly, if you're town and have two brain cells to rub together and are self-voting you should be willing to unvote now and forever in all future games for all time - but that's just me)

I'm still saying Skitter or BBT - town should pull it together for one of those. They both feel fairly just and I'm very sick of the page explosions we keep getting as two people battle to get the last word in for five pages.

[Thor665]

@Thor look at 5 and 14

Oooookay.

5 is a matter of opionin difference. You are claiming he can't push both thoughts, but actually he can because the two thoughts fail to be mutually exclusive, nor do you show how they are, which would be required for it to be a lie.

14 Is (by your definition) a lie from you, because you appear to be forgetting (lying?) about how Toranaga had like...8 pages of absolute blather with Chip where he DID NOTHING BUT CALL HIM SCUMMY FOR THAT. Then, somehow, though all the rampage it actually seemed that Chip somehow did something that triggered Toranaga to decide he was town (I don't particularly recall what, and don't want to be caught in a lie so won't hazard a guess ) SO, no, he appears to be consistant in his opinion that the push on Havo was scummy, and that the people being loudest are the most likely scum (two thoughts that I find okay, as I absolutely agree with the first, though I think the opposite of the second is more likely than what Toranaga is selling).

I also am really not looking to do a point by point rebuttal of your case here - can we just agree to disagree, and at least accept that maybe what you are calling lies might simply be called "questionable behavior"? If you called them that I would agree that they are, and we wouldn't have to have a page war about it, but it would also obligate us to assess the case as not exactly open and shut, which you seem to believe it is.

[Thor665]

I'm pretty sure if we lynch Skitter it goes----


Skitter (town) lynched----Fykus (gunsmith) killed---- Tor (scum) lynched----Mulch (town)---killed.


If Skitter flips scum I would be amazed you would have the balls to bus

Fykus claimed Gunsmith?
Makes me feel better about WhyMafia, but at this stage I'm agreeing with Toranaga that we have scum in the PRs.

[Thor665]

but actually he can because the two thoughts fail to be mutually exclusive

In what way can a role be NAI and also AI? Let's be real here man. I know you like Tor cause they are pushing your skitter lynch

He didn't say that.
You said that.

What he said are;
There is enough power claimed that I think scum are in the PR claims.
and
Fruit Vendor isn't a role that confirms you as town.

That's it.
And I would agree with both of those statements and find it easy to believe both at the same time.

[Thor665]

What about the "tone" part of 14 @thor

I find most reads based on 'tone' in a game that isn't spoken to be a bit laughable.
I'll agree that I don't get it and it might have some scum intent by pushing an empty non-read - but that doesn't make it a lie either.
I already said I agreed that you had some points that made me go 'hurm'.
Can this conversation go somewhere?
I don't want to wall it up with you in defense of Toranaga, all I did was answer your question when I stated my position that your case didn't show a bunch of lies.
If it had I would have loved the case. But it didn't.

Five Pedits later - I don't even care what you're spewing, I am not sheeping that case. And I've made my reasoning for it clear.

[Thor665]

vote: misère

So...your game solution, this latest version, starts with lynching a player who has posted a total of 6 times, hasn't posted for 11 days, and is likely to be replaced soon?

How is that scummy exactly?
I know lots of players, myself included, who are perfectly content with a Misere wagon.

@Mulch - considering today that I have tried to get Misere and Skitter lynched, and have offered to hop to BBT if wagon size builds I'm going to suggest that your definition of tunnel is one, like your definition of lies, that I don't agree with. I'm fine with however you want to read me post a Skitter flip though, that makes sense to me. Just don't call it a tunnel, dude, it has never been that.

[Thor665]

I didn't say it was scummy, I'm just non-plussed that, with 1900+ posts on the board, anyone would think their most reliable scumread is on a player with 6 posts, and no posts for 11 days. Especially with prospect of a replacement who might actually play the slot.

What prospect is that exactly and what are the odds?
Also, I presume you are agreeing that we know almost nothing about the slot other than that it has helped lynch town while avoiding interactions, yes?
Just wanting to understand why you think it might be a town slot - or even a slot not worth flipping.

Actually, now that you mention it, it does look scummy...as does everyone advocating the idea.

In that case mark me down as an advocate.

[Thor665]

I don't see a need to lynch in an essentially inactive slot today. Yeah she was on a townlynch d1, but so were six others. And Maria wasn't a bad lynch, given her lack of effort. Surely in that 1900+ posts you can find someone better? You were red hot for Skitter not so long ago ...

I am pushing Skitter as much as Misere, more I would dare suggest, and Mulch just claimed I was tunneled on her - so I have no idea what you're even suggesting here that I'm not already doing.
Also, the fact that it is Day 2 and I can't describe a *single* valid stance from either Misere or BBT off the top of my head I think that, in and of itself, is highly valid grounds to lynch them because if they're scum, grand, and if they're town we don't want them at mylo since they'll always be a slot we should get dead.
Did our claimed Gunsmith check one of them? Meh, now I need to actually iso him for that claim.
But the argument against lynching them is super empty - that they have done nothing but basically empty vote isn't a town tell, that makes them a valid lynch whether or not they are low posters, and frankly I suggest low posters are more valid for that case.

I don't mind if we do lynch misere. I just think we can do better than that after putting all this effort in. It seems lazy. And Toranaga likes it.

So that makes you a scum read of yourself, right?

[Thor665]

Ah, even night.
Oh joy.

[Thor665]

@Fykus - I know, you're lying because you missed me saying I saw that info in one of my posts
It's okay because I'm tunneling Misere, Skitter, and BBT.

@Virtuoso - please and thank you, we would all love to see one I suspect.

[Thor665]

I may also be tunneling the Taco guy and Monkey, but I think it's less of a tunnel.

Where's WhyMafia? I feel like he's the second most sane player here, and that suggests that maybe I'm the insane one, but I really do feel that I'm just enjoying a very special game experience. I want him to talk to me some.

@WhyMafia - your top three scumspects and a sentence as to why for each. I feel like you've hardly stated anything definitive since Day 2 started.

[Thor665]

We should just lynch anyone who hasn't claimed yet.

[Thor665]

Skitter ignored me again - rather unimpressed by that, especially after my last post about her was specifically about said ignoring.
I'm literally still her biggest pusher and she's pretending like I'm not here and has no read on me.
That's weird any way you cut it, and makes me want to flip her just on general principal that she is proving that she is hard skimming the game but isn't being honest about it.

[Thor665]

Considering I am advocating lynching in the unclaimed, I would like to think my claim was already pretty obvious - also it's rather meaningless to ask. Scum would be daft to claim a PR at this point, and I would pretty much wager any amount you care to that no town PRs are currently unclaimed.

[Thor665]

So then your whole deal with my claim being scummy with tor holds no water

What deal did I have with your claim exactly?
Please quote it and I'll accept your issue.

[Thor665]

@Fykus - I know, you're lying because you missed me saying I saw that info in one of my posts
It's okay because I'm tunneling Misere, Skitter, and BBT.

Went back and looked - with a squint I'm guessing it's this.
Since you're not reading my other posts to put it in context here's a hint - the winky face...might mean I'm not being serious.

[Thor665]

@Fykus - I know, you're lying because you missed me saying I saw that info in one of my posts

What does this mean

Now you're lying by asking

It's a reference to a joke that, at least I, found rather hilarious in thread.
Here's the joke source;

Spoiler: Guess what winky faces mean (Hint: not seriously serious thoughts)

18 could easily simply be missing it - by the logic of this being a 'lie' then like half the thread was 'lying' when wanting to wait for WhyMafia to respond to your "fruit" I also don't see why scum would bother to lie about this intentionally, which means it's unintentional even if he is scum and thus not really selling me as a case.

This has basically just been a giant litmus test where I found multiple people aren't reading gak - or have the memories of goldfish. I find it slightly extra obnoxious because *you* were the one who demanded that response from me, and then you forgot it like a couple of days later.
Meh and double meh on all of you.

@Skitter - Last game we played where you were scum you said how obv. town I was - why are you not getting gak from me this game, and then advancing it a step further to actively avoid interaction with me? You even said our playstyles were very similar yet you apparently can't get any read at all on me in this game?
Last game I mistakenly town read you and you purred like a kitten for me the rest of the time you were there and not only interacted, but defended me from narf.
Now you are the narf.
I feel like I'm catching you here, I really do.

[Thor665]

Yeah, his basic stance seems to be he can't get me to town read him - so he must not interact with me due to that.
But him then having me as null should be unconnected to that, and considering my value calls on a lot of players that look to be generally likely town now *prior* to any of them hitting that stage, you'd think I'd be looking at least town lean or something.

I'm not exactly a small ISO nor am I an ISO of blitz posts and/or fluff.
There's tons to data mine me on and I've offered reads on literally every player, and even had reads shift - so there's tons to assess.
I'm not a BBT slot here, I shouldn't be null.

[Thor665]

http://www.letmegooglethat.com/?q=narf
http://www.letmegooglethat.com/?q=gak

[Thor665]

Thor be prepared for heavy pressure if Skitter flips town. Fair warning.

Same to you?
Every vote is a vote, don't derp.

[Thor665]

Thor be prepared for heavy pressure if Skitter flips town. Fair warning.

Same to you?
Every vote is a vote, don't derp.

You've been pushing them the entire game, led the wagon, and have had a large amount of your reads dominated by talk of Skittles scum. Are you really relating me to you right now?

By that logic are you scum because of the Havo push?
Y'see, I was able to assess intent - aren't you capable of that?
There is a difference between a scum push and a town push.

I'll accept your derp play if a Skitter scum flip makes me lock town for the rest of the game though. Deal?

[Thor665]

I was frustrated and just wanted it to end. But then I saw that the deadline wasn't as near as I thought it was.

You're wrong though. Because I'm town. If you decide right now that I'm scum, LYNCH ME NOW. I don't want to be in LYLO. At the rate that everyone is suspecting me, I don't think we will win. I'm thinking that you're setting me up to fail. So if you decide to put me in any scum team right now, LYNCH ME FIRST.

[Thor665]

You won't, though. You're afraid of the flip. Because you know it would expose the fuck out of you guys.

Bold prediction. Scum team in Toranaga and Thor and BBT.

I'm not widely town read: Chip, You, Thor. I'm not widely town read.

Who else scum reads you.
Because I have you as a gut vibe 4th or 5th on my list.
Neither Toranaga nor Mulch has you in their top three as far as I can tell (though Toranaga might)
Who else?
Because you are actually pushing yourself higher on my scum list now that you're acting like you can't deal with the pressure of...not much pressure at all.
It feels overwraught and fake to me. Are you drunk right now? That's the only valid excuse I can think of.

[Thor665]

Because of Toranaga's #2071. Toranaga will obviously stay with us until D4 or D5 and WIFOM the crap out of not dying. Since I am "obviously" the third scum, I will be the LYLO lynch option. I do not want that to happen. If I die now, Toranaga's farce will be stripped away.

How would you dying and flipping town prevent scum Toranaga from doing his plan exactly?
Because I don't see it.

[Thor665]

I'm glad we had Toranaga to push through that Skitter lynch so now we can all town read him

In other less random derp news Chip seems likely town due to interactions with Skitter.
Also in other news;

BTW please don't tell me you tried to do VCA without any flips

Maybe it was just dumb luck on my part, right? Odd how the dumb luck seems to work for me more than random chance suggests.
Strange that, really

Toranaga has all my trust for this day. So does Thor, Sergtacos, and WhyMafia.

Why Serg?
That is not a slot I am particularly impressed by - why are they as town as the others on that list for you?

Vote: Humaneatingmonkey

I also support that BBT/Lime push at the moment, can't go too wrong lynching that slot.
Maybe I'll go remind myself of some VCA in a moment to complete my terrible non-understanding of how to play the game.

[Thor665]

Wait, was Serg one of the claims?
If so then yeah, I'll agree that's fine.
He should pick up his play though.

[Thor665]

skitter30

(5): Fykus, MariaR, Thor665, Toranaga, BlueBloodedToffee

L-2

MariaR

(7): Chip Butty, Mulch, Thor665, BlueBloodedToffee, Misère, skitter30, Fykus

(LYNCH)

skitter30

(5): Thor665, Sergtacos, Chip Butty, Fykus, Mulch, Toranaga -- LYNCH

Serg was actually the slot that kind of blind hopped on Skitter after I threatened him - I'm really no bueno with that slot.
Looking at what we have here, BBT/Lime slot is definitely in a bus position, though I'll agree that was a dumb early wagon but still...everyone else on it is either confirmed town, or vastly likely town.

Maria wagon makes me feel slightly better about havingfitz/Misere slot. BBT slot is more...meh. Chip is in a decent scum spot, but I feel like skitter was legit trying to lynch him during the game, so I lean against that theory at the moment.

Skitter wagon, Serg, Chip, Mulch is pretty much 100% assured to have a scum in it for my money.
I think Mulch and Chip are town.

Unvote: humaneatingmonkey
Vote: Sergtacos

You guys should explain why you're towning this slot.

[Thor665]

Maybe it was just dumb luck on my part, right

I'm sorry, after you said I didn't know how to play the game I thought we were at the stage where I was allowed to say 'told you so'
Why is Serg town?

I cannot follow you on fitz. I have to wait on lime. I'll re-read monkey
What do you feel on tacos?

Fitz is also part from the Misere read which I'm not repeating for a 10th time. And a lot of them are PoE.

Tacos is very probably town.

I'm not asking you too. I am stating that I don't believe misere is scum

I would guardedly agree with this.

[Thor665]

I'm glad we had Toranaga to push through that Skitter lynch so now we can all town read him

I'm the towniest motherfucker in this goddamn game; a claimed PR who has pushed wolves and defended villagers -all game-; with more content and solvy-ness posts than everyone else.

but ok if you need skitter flipping scum to believe me lol

Nobody gets my sense of humor online.
Maybe I'm not as funny as I think I am.

[Thor665]

I wasn't sure what your stance on me was yesterday

Yeah, I've been really quiet about saying I town read you.

Why is Serg town?

HE would have had to hard bussed and I think his paranoia is villagery...to an extent

When did Sergtaco hard bus Skitter?
Also, quite frankly, you still think I might be scum even though i would suggest I probably had to be bussing harder than Serg - so why are you using two different criteria to judge us?

[Thor665]

I actually kind of love this post. ^

[Thor665]

WM already confirmed him insomuch as he agreed he got 'something' and I'm fine with that.
So I don't know what we're waiting on.

The taco guy and monkey last couple of pages curled my toes for some reason, it felt like scum/scum talk. It's a gut feel but it's there and even on a second read I still get the feel and can't put my finger on it.

They should both vote Skitter to reassure me

VOTE: Skitter

@Mulch - here is Serg's vote on Skitter, please explain to me how "hard" this is exactly and why?
Also, feel free to pull up any other attacks he did on Skitter after the vote - I found none.
I can find evidence of him attacking people who attacked Skitter though.

[Thor665]

WM already confirmed him insomuch as he agreed he got 'something' and I'm fine with that.
So I don't know what we're waiting on.

The taco guy and monkey last couple of pages curled my toes for some reason, it felt like scum/scum talk. It's a gut feel but it's there and even on a second read I still get the feel and can't put my finger on it.

They should both vote Skitter to reassure me

VOTE: Skitter

@Mulch - here is Serg's vote on Skitter, please explain to me how "hard" this is exactly and why?
Also, feel free to pull up any other attacks he did on Skitter after the vote - I found none.
I can find evidence of him attacking people who attacked Skitter though.

@Mulch

[Thor665]

I see I'm staying a Thor read - yesterday I was tunneled on Skitter, today after she flips scum I apparently barely pushed her.

Only on Page 89, but have a few questions;

@Mulch - viewtopic.php?p=9640558#p9640558 third time is the charm?
@Toranaga - why do you lock town Sergtacos?

[Thor665]

so the games are incredibly townsided and mafia still wins a lot. I have no idea why.

also yeah I'm very suspicious of most of these setups. IDK why games need to be so mech heavy anyway. I'd play a vanilla 13er with seer and feel great about it.

My preferred is mountainous myself.
But the play quality here suffered a lot in the last few years, and now we're where we're at.

Where do you play that doesn't have this meta?
I'm always down for a new site.

Thor's got a scum tone that gives me a gutread I can't shake off.

It's called you not being able to read someone who either aggressive hard bussed their partner for two days straight - or spotting town who has been really pretty accurate with their reads.

[Thor665]

Like, if I'm scum - town should be sheeping me anyway at this stage.

[Thor665]

Hey there. I'm going to read up now and I'd appreciate it if someone could get me up to speed. (Claims, important game events including what led to the D1 mislynch, how you got the scum lynch D2, etc.) I replaced in blind and I didn't do much reading overnight, just a cursory quick glance at an iso or two. Anything you give helps.

Pretty much all our PRs claimed by mid Day 2.
Day 1 wagon resulted from people turning away from the claimed cop to then lynch a semi-lurk slot with opportunistic votes.
Day 2 wagon resulted from a number of claims again, I thought it was led by me, but apparently I'm being told it was led by Toranaga, which is fine as I think he's town anyways.

Toranaga is a claimed Odd Night Tracker
WhyMafia is a claimed Miller
Mulch is a claimed fruit vendor (and has Why Mafia and humaneatingmonkey as confirming they have received fruits)

You are now caught up.

[Thor665]

On reading what I wrote, to clarify, Maria was a semi lurk slot who *also* had opportunistic votes.
Though I suppose some votes on her were potentially opportunistic.

[Thor665]

really you've been onto skitter quite a lot since d1. I just think you did that while also pushing town. and I feel you could have just hard cased skitter and get her lynched if you wanted to, but mostly people just independently got there regardless of you voting her or not.

I don't think that's true at all, and even if it is then it's not you leading it either.
I repeatedly cased Skitter because everyone in this game is a goldfish, including you.

and I may be an idiot but how is mulch town? I know mulch;amrock from MU, he is good or at least not supposed to do the many awful things he did d1 wrt Havo. and considering how skitter was bold enough to put two town on L-1, I'm reading everything mulch does as bold openwolfing and not wrong town.

Mulch also saif that VCA doesn't work and shows I'm bad at the game.
My theory isI wouldn't agree with most of his decisions of how to play the game - or do you think he's lying about theory?
If he's scum, I doubt it's because of his playstyle unless you can show me how he normally doesn't play this way.

it's hard to parse out what is people being incredibly bad at the game or mafia. But I think mulch is mafia, and I can't let it go that he is running town to the ground playing against inexperienced players, and you. DUCY. you may be the only player that can convince me out of the tunnel right now

Even if Mulch is mafia, and I'm willing to give you even odds on a scum being amongst the claims,that still means one scum not in the PR claims.
Since scum will keep whittling down the claims for us, it is town's job to whittle down the not claims.
Who do you think is Mulch/Skitter's buddy?

@thor: I play on Mafia Universe and 2+2's puzzles and other games. 2+2 games are very fast, usually 12h day 12h night. we used to have by far the most competent player field online, and the championships started on POG and with POG players MVPing those games. Now it's... not as good. the forums are pretty dead, but I still play there cause it's a lot more fun to me than elsewhere.

I've played invitationals both places.
I don't have the available schedule for fast games.
I liked both, but didn't find them much different in play quality I'll admit.

[Thor665]

Mulch was towny for how he approached Why Mafia, and his willingness to attack any and everyone.
I'll agree Skitter was scummy and that it took a long time for people to get there for some reason.

I'm more frustrated by no one being willing to explain how Serg is own despite multiple people now claiming it.
That slot is not towny.

[Thor665]

WM already confirmed him insomuch as he agreed he got 'something' and I'm fine with that.
So I don't know what we're waiting on.

The taco guy and monkey last couple of pages curled my toes for some reason, it felt like scum/scum talk. It's a gut feel but it's there and even on a second read I still get the feel and can't put my finger on it.

They should both vote Skitter to reassure me

VOTE: Skitter

@Mulch - here is Serg's vote on Skitter, please explain to me how "hard" this is exactly and why?
Also, feel free to pull up any other attacks he did on Skitter after the vote - I found none.
I can find evidence of him attacking people who attacked Skitter though.

@Mulch

@Mulch - fourth time is maybe the charm?
Y'know, if you're intentionally ducking it you could at least tell me and save us both some time.

[Thor665]

2194

Oh I see, I thought you were being cheeky - I didn't see your answer nested inside my quote.

So, basically your answer is that you agree it wasn't that good of a push and you don't have any evidence to support your previous stance?

Could I get your vote on him then? Is your vote on him? I'd like your vote on him.

[Thor665]

I like the distance work going on between Mulch and Serg, it will totally keep me from lynching Mulch for a day after the Serg scum flip

[Thor665]

@Thor, you don't really have a strong case on me, i mean your reasoning of me being scum is shitty that it makes me think you're scum. There's a case on Mulch and it's strong so I would advise you to push for Mulch if you're town.

What's Poo-poo about my reasoning exactly?

[Thor665]

VOTE: sergetacos

Reason?

Probably the same reason you sheeped me onto Skitter, I have a fabulously sexy voice.

[Thor665]

@Thor, you don't really have a strong case on me, i mean your reasoning of me being scum is shitty that it makes me think you're scum. There's a case on Mulch and it's strong so I would advise you to push for Mulch if you're town.

What's Poo-poo about my reasoning exactly?

I seriously don't see any of your reasoning actually.

Then where do you get off calling it poo-poo?
Wouldn't you just say it doesn't exist?

As for my reasoning - it was VCA, I showed it already.

The provlem with this theory is that i don't flip red. You have a different way at approaching the game than me. It's not my fault you think that's scummy. What I did was the right play, it just didn't work.

if you flip green, then I think HEM > misère are good lynches to go with next.

If we lynch scum today, I become confirmed town tomorrow

Because roles you can use in addition to a NK are unheard of or unlikely?

@Mulch - you think that's frustrating? Try being unbelieveably accurate in all your reads and still have people claiming you're highly likely scum.
It's the game.

[Thor665]

I don't think it gives town anything to e.g. mislynch sergtacos here

who is never wolfing with you after how d1 went down.

Why do you think this?
Their combined Havo push?

[Thor665]

Honestly at this point I'm really fucking annoyed with this game and are tempted to just self vote if u promise to lynch misere tmrw. I've been trying not to do it but this game sucks

If you feel like that, replace out, and don't compound annoyance with bad play by self voting.
Unless you're scum - then self vote.

thor, I'm not saying you're highly likely scum. really, if Mulch flips town here you're probably lock clear? and then I'm an idiot clearing the wrong people and pushing the game in a bad direction. but I cannot understand anyone townreading mulch, and I think you've been interacting with Mulch in ways that make sense wolfing together. And tone wise, I do not think you're townie. I know you laughed at tone reading before, and I don't necessarily tone read you scum (although I can probably pull up some interesting posts), but a lot of your posts don't have the townie vibe HEM, sergtacos or WM have.

Considering the odds of one of them being scum and me knowing my role, I will continue to mock tone reading.
We can talk about it post game when you have a better accuracy read of your takes here

Your Serg stuff makes me want to lynch Serg more than Mulch - allow me to ask this question, how likely do you think town would want to quadruple down on getting a town to reveal his role, especially since your theory scum group apparently has me as a roleblocker (or was that Serg? I forget - it's an even sillier idea if scum have a RBer though)

Also, considering Mulch's derpy little 'hope I wasn't roleblocked' commentary on Day 2, feels like if he's scum there isn't a RBer, no?

Wrong. You voted me because I decided to vote for skitter and i did that by requoting your post. You think i'm trying to have you town lock when you said monekey and i should vote skitter then i voted skitter right after, wrong. I thought I posted why skitter was my strongest scum read but guess I greened out then felt like it was old to do so, which therefore i decided not to post why because she was getting lynched anyway.

I didn't like that and found it scummy, you are correct.

Anyway, my point, wrong about why it doesn't exist. Your reasons doesn't exist but your argument (vote) still stands. idk what VCA means. In order to have a sound argument, you need to have valid points. You can't make a sound argument with no reasoning, no points, which therefore makes your argument unsound.

If you don't know what VCA means how do you know it lacks reasoning?
And I'll admit we might have been talking at cross purposes if you think argument = vote.
My valid points are my VCA - which is Vote Count Analysis - it's the same method that I used on Skitter. I'll agree that it doesn't always work, but it seems to work more often than random chance.

[Thor665]

There were two people attacking Havo the same way - at least one has to be town, right?
So if we accept that at least one is town - how is it a leap to think both are?

[Thor665]

To clarify my position more fully - I feel your "oh mah gawd he's obv. scum!" case is basically a "look how terrible he did this" case.
Now, I agree that the way he handled the claim is not how I would handle it as town, and how I'd sort of like to see it done as scum - but as scum I'd never do it that way.

So, for your case to make sense either one of the following is true;

1. He is scum who knows what he did was terrible, and did it because he's scum - in which case you ought to be able to dig up a town game where he doesn't do that.
2. He is scum who does this because it's what he does as town and he thinks it's fine to do - in which case he may be scum, but your case wouldn't show it, and thus he might flip town.

Make sense as my thought?

[Thor665]

So, if it's #1 and you can show it - I'd tunnel him to death with you.
But I suspect that, if he's scum, it's #2 - in which case it's not a valid case.

[Thor665]

So you could see two scum both hard pushing for a town claim openly?
That seems brazen and unlikely to me.

Also, wasn't it Chip? Chip was who I thought did it.

[Thor665]

HEM may have done it too, but I remember Chip as the more vociferous.

[Thor665]

Your logic is based on what opinion o fhis experience?
Like - you think he's lying about what he believes is proper play to that degree?
I find that unlikely.
I don't do that as scum, do you?

[Thor665]

you're limiting a read that spuns over +400 posts of his and almost a month of playing to a discussion on whether he is lying or not about what he considers proper play. and there's probably no way to know if he is lying or telling the truth about what he considers proper play because the Havo spot was very specific and unlikely to have come up in a different game.

Okay.
But I do think that's the crux of your case, you're asking me to accept that he would do a certain playstyle only as scum.
When the man was frankly insulting me over VCA I tend to take a broad view of what he is likely to consider proper play.

what did Mulch do that was towny?

I answered this question for you already a few times - my answers remain the same.

now I could be wrong, you could be right... but you're reducing what a case on mulch would look like to a -matter of opinion in theory- instead of looking at the bigger picture, and that's pretty scummy regardless of Mulch's alignment.

Have you played with town Mulch?
I have - this doesn't feel shockingly different to me.
I feel like your case would require that feeling.

[Thor665]

there thor, done my homework. yes the feeling is different. and yes, I played with town mulch a few times.

I played the 1931 you listed and can't say I see a shocking difference in the Mulch there versus the Mulch here.
Also, I've already explained my attitude towards him clearer than you seem to be taking it.
I haven't said he's a hard town.
I have said I see town motivation in what he's done.
I have also explained why I would rather lynch the scum that isn't a claimed PR than the one who is - especially since there is 100% the first and >100% the second.

You meanwhile apparently have me as the top and only Mulch scumbuddy now - which is obnoxious, half blind, and boring if that's the sort of blind tunnel you want to get into.

[Thor665]

Doubt tor is scum

So you think fv/tracker is t/t? I mean, it's possible. But it seems to me that town fv would depower the town tracker a bit, and why depower a tracker that can already only act every second night?

Do you have issues with the Miller depowering the Gunsmith?
It's the same logic.

[Thor665]

Are you sure miller depowers gunsmith? Don't they return a true 'no gun' result? Cop yes, but gunsmith?

On average Millers are like reverse Godfathers - what can be considered a guilty is returned.
Considering our Cop had a Loyalty modifier I'd wager any amount you cared to that the Gunsmith would have gotten a 'gun' result from our Miller.
To be perfectly frank, I'd wager that scum have a Godfather, considering the Loyal modifier.

[Thor665]

From the wiki, miller throws off cop invs. Anything more requires a speciality, like tracker miller. And WM only claimed plain miller.

What wiki are you reading?
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Miller
Literally it says it could just be called a Miller and return 'gun' to gunsmiths.

[Thor665]

I'm not assuming it, I offered reasoning for why I concluded it.

[Thor665]

Miller and loyal cop actually defeat the point of Miller.

[Thor665]

Miller and loyal cop actually defeat the point of Miller.

Are you saying the miller claim is bogus?

I'm saying anyone who thinks the Miller exists to counter the Loyal Cop is being laughable.

Thor, why is Sergtacos scum? I had him as town because of my last game with him, he had a similar vibe. I'm not so sure anymore. Why can't we lynch between Porkens and havingfitz instead?

I have explained my Serg read a couple of times now, as recently as yesterday even when Serg claimed I hadn't explained it and then remembered that I had and debated it with me.
I'm not repeating it again for people who don't read/have the memories of goldfish.

[Thor665]

Absolutely shocking, Porkens assessed in all in two hours

[Thor665]

Maria wagon makes me feel slightly better about havingfitz/Misere slot.

Why is that?

Because of how Skitter bunched up his vote on Misere's.

I sliiightly lean against there being all three scum on the D1 Maria wagon however so that makes me sliiightly doubt that both Porkens and Mulch could be scum together.

Skittles being on Chip Butty hard all of D2 leans me towards Chip being town.

I agree with these points and have similar thoughts.
Why do you town read Sergtacos though?
I swear, either I'm crazy or everyone else is - and no one has been able to explain the townread to me yet.

As a preview - if your answer is "his vote on Skitter" then please go look at his vote and the post right before it, and all of his pushing on that slot before or after it and then let me know if it's still your reason only then.

[Thor665]

Why do you town read Sergtacos though?

Strictly vca in absence of readthrough. He shoqed commitment to skittles wagon and could have opted for Chip wagon (L-2) or put Toranga at L-1 later. Unless those are scum PRs I'd think scum Taco would prefer them to a partner. All bussing aside.

I submit it was not commitment at all.

[Thor665]

Whether or not it would have faded has limited change to the odds of scum being on it though.

[Thor665]

By the way I think it goes without saying that if this flips scum I'm all but mechanically cleared and then on top of that I WILL be mechanically cleared by my fruit lmfao

[Thor665]

I would like to still note that even though everyone says they townread Serg, only havingfitz, the new guy, was willing to both toss up reasoning, and maybe had that reasoning survive scrutiny (though jury is still softly out on that I feel)
and yet...infinite town reads and no votes.
Doesn't feel legit.

[Thor665]

I am glad to hear that - what are the odds you'd prefer to lynch Taco today over Chip whom I generally town read and who also had Skitter kind of hard hunting him a lot of Day 1 and Day 2, I find him a very unlikely partner.
I think Serg is a very reasonable partner option.

[Thor665]

Or you could look at how I already assessed him via VCA and offer your thoughts on that?

Pedit - it's an L-1 wagon, it's the same info as any L-1 wagon, adding processing complications due to timing of the wagon is, I fell, a meaningless exercise in complication.

[Thor665]

Or you could look at how I already assessed him via VCA and offer your thoughts on that?

Pedit - it's an L-1 wagon, it's the same info as any L-1 wagon, adding processing complications due to timing of the wagon is, I fell, a meaningless exercise in complication.

How is it ending up in a lynch "meaningless complications" lmao

I think you don't understand what I'm saying or I don't understand what you're saying.
I'm not talking about lynching meaningless complications in any way, shape, or form in my comment.

[Thor665]

Or you could look at how I already assessed him via VCA and offer your thoughts on that?

Pedit - it's an L-1 wagon, it's the same info as any L-1 wagon, adding processing complications due to timing of the wagon is, I fell, a meaningless exercise in complication.

How is it ending up in a lynch "meaningless complications" lmao

I think you don't understand what I'm saying or I don't understand what you're saying.
I'm not talking about lynching meaningless complications in any way, shape, or form in my comment.

What "meaningless complications" were you referring too?

If you read my post in context to what I'm answering - you can see that I'm referring to Chip choosing to try to assess how early/unlikely to go through the wagon was a spart of his process in assessing it.
I then called that a meaningless exercise in complication.

[Thor665]

I think CHip is the wrong tree - people keep kind of whining about his Havo push and that's about it. Now, sure, that's about all that Chip has done - besides have Skitter try to lynch him repeatedly.
I just don't see that as a bus.
Your princess is in another castle.

@Toranaga - I am not unwilling to consider your Mulch = scum case as a thing, but I wish to hell I didn't have to keep debating your idea of Sergtacos based off your predisposed idea of Mulch, it leads to a non functioning communication of why you're clearing my top scumspect. Let's try this - let's pretend for a moment that Mulch is utterly null - how would you assess Sergtacos then?

I find Porkens assessments to be a lot more shallow than everyone else seems to save Chip, that tends to make me feel better about Chip again.
As evidence - look at the flips and his reads list, and then ask why Tor is less towny than WhyMafia.
It's an ugly reads list.
Why do people like it?

[Thor665]

It means that most others, besides Chip, seem to like them.

[Thor665]

Whose saving who?? I'm sorry I don't understand

That's why I put it into different words so you could understand it - did my alternate version make sense to you?
In no, where am I losing you on that version?
If yes, then let's move on.

I'd still view him tacos as townie, thor. let me pull out stuff from his iso and comment:

'm going to only respond to the stuff THAT ISN'T ABOUT HIM ATTACKING MULCH ON THE PRESUMPTION MULCH IS SCUM/SCUMMY AND THEREFORE ITS A TOWNTELL.

Seriously, I thought I was clear in my ask.

so starting with this, just from a 'scum is more self aware than that' perspective. scum!sergtacos is scumreading 4 town players and town reading his scum partner? because if he is scum, it's not with mulch or monkey, right?

I fail to follow how handing a scum a town lean and scum leaning other slots some of whom are town and others are unflipped equates to a valid town tell in any way or form for Serg.

towny push here, no?

No.
It's just a push - until we have a flip we don't know if it's towny or not.
It might just be scum skewing words to try for a mislynch.

is a scum!tacos going to organically shift his read on scum!skitter? looks pretty good, no?

If he'd done anything with it I would agree.
I'll say I think this is your best point (I would call this your only point, frankly, but I can be a jerk) but it's not like he did anything with this supposed shift.
Even Serg had to admit to me (and I paraphrase) "Oh, yeah, I thought I'd put up all my thoughts and reasonings to lynch Skitter that happened in my head - guess I forgot, sorry!" Which doesn't awe me with the attack.
it sells you a lot though, huh?

I think it's bizarre that this is even a wagon.

What do you think of my VCA?
I think that looks super bad for the slot.

[Thor665]

@TOranaga
@Porkens

Ecplain how that was a Skitter bus on Chip.
If you want a reeky wagon, you feebs jumped on it.
And I only town read one of you.

[Thor665]

Hell, just saying, I think town leaning Robb is straight up scummy - that slot did spit.

[Thor665]

@TOranaga
@Porkens

Ecplain how that was a Skitter bus on Chip.
If you want a reeky wagon, you feebs jumped on it.
And I only town read one of you.

I don't understand your question. Vote for who you think is scum.

I am voting who I think is scum.
What I'm asking is for you to explain why you think Skitter and Chip can be partners and how you think that worked?
That you're ducking it...meh, doesn't impress me on your read.

are you lynching mulch if tacos flips town? I more or less can't be arsed anyway

I would lynch Porkens if Serg flipped town.

[Thor665]

@Mulch - I don't really think it will. Plus I almost want to let fitz live for a day just so I can have legit reads discussion in this game

[Thor665]

right. I just want to move on to a game where I don't have to read chip butty anymore. so, fine, let's lynch tacos, why not. but if he flips town, then I think my reads have been good and you should at least follow the mulch one.

My reads have been good too, what of it?
The question is what we can explain and discuss to combine good reads going forward.

Every discussion I have with you basically returns to you wanting to lynch everyone who pushed Havo - ignoring that the one flipped scum we have took pains not to be a big Havo pusher, and that's how we caught her.

Could one of them be scum? Sure.
But I *really* don't think it's Chip.
And Mulch, as a claimed PR, I'm good with letting sit around for a while.
Let's lynch in non claimed PRs today.

[Thor665]

I'd lynch misère;fitz ahead of butty, tacos and porkens fwiw

I can see having a scum read on Fitz's slot.
But how in the world do you rank Porkens or Tacos as better?
And I still have that open question about the bus Skitter would have needed to lay down for Chip to be scum.

porkens is townie. if he is scum, he deserves to win. only scum deserves to win this dick of a game.

It's only a dick of a game if people decide randomly to get all pissy and game toss for emotions.
It's a game - if you aren't enjoying it replace out.
Otherwise spare the rest of us fake drama.

[Thor665]

Like, Tor, you're screaming your head off about Mulch scum - and you're voting the slot he has been trying to lynch all Day.
It bewilders me.
I remember when Mafia was about communication.
This is meh.

[Thor665]

Thor for somene that prides themselves on good reasoning you have shit reasoning for why they are town, or none at all

Considering this game and last game we've been in together my method also appears to work.
So maybe it does suck and my logic isn't properly presented - but if I keep at the accuracy level I appear to I'm perfectly comfortable with that.

[Thor665]

Thor for somene that prides themselves on good reasoning you have shit reasoning for why they are town, or none at all

Considering this game and last game we've been in together my method also appears to work.
So maybe it does suck and my logic isn't properly presented - but if I keep at the accuracy level I appear to I'm perfectly comfortable with that.

Actually, last game I came in and identified 3/4 scum and was talked out of it. And then lynched

Yes, and?
I didn't lynch you and I'm clearly trying to have conversations with you in this game despite some of the issues with your current position.

I like how thor is defending fitz here too...

fitz' ISO is townie

thor, what can I say. I strong scumread mulch. to the point where lynching people who can't be scum with him feels poor. is tacos towny? eh, a little. I haven't seen scummy posts. I don't think him voting skitter after being called out by you means anything.

I am painfully aware of how your read on Mulch is affecting all your other reads.
I will point out that there isn't a good town case on Serg.
Literally the best you managed to point out was the soft flip on Skitter that he never pursued outside on one naked vote after being called out.
That's not impressive as a town case - please just at least admit that.

Also, as I keep saying, though I am willing to accept there is scum within the PRs, there is *assuredly* at least one scum outside of the PRs, and since scum is obligated to kill off actual PRs, the theory scum inside the PRs is in a diceier situation than the assured one outside of them. So let's tey to lynch a partner.
Who do you see as a good Skitter partner (desperately trying to blind yourself to your Mulch tunnel) outside the PRs?

I think it's got to be porkens or Serg. It miiiiiight be havingfitz, but I don't think so. And I think Chip is very clear, and I think humaneatingmonkeys is...well, softly clear from VCA. Porkens and Serg, however, both look very bad to me. Would you at least agree to my two as the best two? Or am I overlooking something (again, shut the hell up about Mulch when answering this, as unless you can defeat my PR v. unclaimed logic you're not getting Mulch support from me today)

IDK. unless it's you and mulch, I'm having scum as a town read. cause neither you nor mulch is scum with tacos.

Thank you for making me a Thor read.
I also promise you that you're wrong in thinking I'm scum, so at least for the sake of amused debate let's see your thoughts without me being scum also

[Thor665]

@Mulch - I don't even get your whine to me, I never said your reads that game nor this game were bad.
You're the one saying that about me.

[Thor665]

@Havingfitz - who do you see as the most likely scum in the non-claims and why?

[Thor665]

Thor, the 'PR' logic is pretty shit actually. if 'there has to be scum' between the PR claims, which may or may not be the case, then mulch is scum because I'm the tracker and WM has played a perfect miller game + the sub is townie speaking about it. I know I'm not convincing you to vote mulch, as you're no longer convincing me to vote either porkens, fitz or tacos. I kinda think they're all mislynches at this point. I especially have NO REASON to ever vote porkens this gameday.

I think you're misunderstanding my stance.
I think there is assured scum in the non-PRs.
I am willing to accept that there is scum in the PRs, but I don't consider that as an assurance.
Now what do you think of the logic now that you understand it?

WM has not played a perfect Miller game, unless a perfect Miller game is to claim early.

Why do you have no reason to vote Porkens? I've explained my specific issues with his reads, and I don't have much undying love for his predecessor slot.
I can understand maybe having some sort of slim gut read - but a lock town sort of position for the day seems really weird to me.

[Thor665]

@havingfitz - My issues with Taco's vote is that it was slightly compelled, was exceedingly weak, and he did nothing to advance the wagon, which has the vote comfortably fall into bussing territory for me, and thus not a valid reason to presume he is not scum with Skitter.

[Thor665]

thor is town, thor is smartmans, listen to thor

Be mindful, I'm also shopping you as scum

[Thor665]

I think Tor is confirmation biased on me, and Fitz is scum

Why this? I have yucky feelings on both.

Tor's claim means that if you have yucky feelings it's a non starter till at least tomorrow if ever - so feel free to pocket them until then.
I generally disagree with both of you on fitz.

[Thor665]

Day 2.

[Thor665]

No I've been thinking about it too, Chippy. That's why I asked Porkens who he didn't want to lynch because it seemed like he was down to lynch anyone. I mean if you don't have anyone you don't want to lynch, that's not townie at all.

I've said multiple times ill lynch anyone orange or below on my readslist. you are just making shit up at this point.

I find the pig pretty scummy, but he just owned the monkey really hard on that one.
He has been very clear in his stated lynch goals.

[Thor665]

I'm actually kind of excited by the current wagons.

[Thor665]

gg

lynch mulch

if this thing flips green

no matter what Porkens flips

Fixed that to reflect your true thoughts

[Thor665]

gg

lynch mulch

if this thing flips green

no matter what Porkens flips

Fixed that to reflect your true thoughts

if you're green and mulch is red

I swear to god man

I'll say 'I told you so'

And I'll say - I never called Mulch a clear town, and then...what, we'll just sit there and look at each other awkwardly for a moment?
What if he's green and I'm green, will that make it more or less awkward?

[Thor665]

Your strategy is flawless

[Thor665]

No one is a Jester in this game - at least not due to a role given by the mod.

[Thor665]

I'm intrigued scum bought into that claim.
Pretty much moves the odds of scum in the PRs closer to 100%.
Or maybe just derpy scum?

VOTE: Sergtacos

[Thor665]

Thor I'm 100% sure that Tor is scum. Look at literally every single possibility. EVERY SINGLE ONE. They make no sense unless Tor is scum

He claimed prior to the confirmed Odd Night Gunsmith - I find it highly unlikely that he is scum who derped into that fakeclaim.
Can you explain that?
Is he in reality a rolecop, or do scum have a rolecop?
Because literally that's the only way I'd buy him as scum at this stage.

[Thor665]

why would you ever send fruit to monkey of all people? why send fruit to a guy you're SURE is getting NKed if I'm scum?

This is a good point.
Monkey is a derp fruit choice.

[Thor665]

Mulch is at L-1 currently.

[Thor665]

I'm intrigued scum bought into that claim.
Pretty much moves the odds of scum in the PRs closer to 100%.
Or maybe just derpy scum?

VOTE: Sergtacos

The only way serg is scum is if Tor is scum and lied about tracking him.

Oh really?
How do you figure that?

[Thor665]

No, I see that, where you lose me is how that proves he's town considering you appear to believe there are two scum remaining.

[Thor665]

I feel like I'm being dense or you're being silly, so just walk me through it so we can figure out which is which.

[Thor665]

I feel like I'm being dense or you're being silly, so just walk me through it so we can figure out which is which.

Ok maybe I'm being dense. Does only one scum do the kill?

Yes, the scum don't all run off together to do kills en masse - that's why roles like Tracker and Watcher can work.
So, tell me again why Serg is town to the point I'm scum for voting him?

I'd also like to sadly admit that I still think Toranaga is town despite the utter derp he's spewing.
And I almost half buy Mulch as town despite what he's trying to claim is a slip, simply because of his info fish on Cheeky.

Serg still feels very bad to me in all this.

[Thor665]

here is the thing about tacos: he didn't visit anyone last night, which reduces the odds of him being scum because that means his scum partner would have to do the NK. it's not natural that, with this information, thor wants to vote tacos anyway.

What is the actual statistical reduction?
Because though I'll agree with you that it exists, I'd love to know how big you think it is that it should alter my reads.

[Thor665]

You think tor is town? Bullshit

I'll agree that both of you are making it very hard to have the thoughts I have.

So Thor is your scum partner Tor?

Or you - depends which of you feebs we ask.
But considering both of you are apparently thinking I'm th emost logical scum buddy to the other - I'll suggest that at *least* one of you is wearing pants on his head.
Which is better statistical odds than Serg being cleared, fyi

PEdit - @Toranaga - if you don't know by how much it alters the probability then why are you riding my nuts for not clearing Serg? Seriously, what is this derp? What if it's a 1% shift? Then you should be shutting up, yeah? How big of a percentage does it need to be to have your point hold water?

[Thor665]

I pretty much just want to vote Tacos.
But I'm willing to pretend fitz will do stuff tomorrow and give him time for that to happen
I don't think Chip can be scum.

[Thor665]

We have 5 living players, no lynching today loses us a lynch.
Is my game state awareness off?

[Thor665]

Fitz...

[Thor665]

How is he "inexplicably" alive exactly?
He is alive because scum opted to kill HEM.
HEM died because if he hadn't then (presuming Toranaga town) Mulch (with the weakest clearing PR claim) would have been the final PR in lylo with basically everyone admitting that they thought one scum was in the PRs.
So the "inexplicable" becomes very "explicable" at that point, yeah?
What am I missing?

[Thor665]

His setup argument is quite reasonable if you presume he's a tracker regardless of his alignment.
If you flip him over to your argument of him being a rolecop it becomes less hardline.

[Thor665]

I don't think he makes much sense as Mulch's partner though.

[Thor665]

It is highly suggestive that the person he was hard tunneled on for two days is no longer in the game - I suspect I had a similar shift when Skitter was finally lynched, no?
Now tht shift cold be because he was faking the tunnel, but I feel it's more indicative of the tunnel removal than a fake tunnel removal vs. a real tunnel removal.

[Thor665]

I agree that is a concern, but I'm not sure that's a concern today.
I also don't care to, at this stage, try to suss out whether scum believed or didn't believe HEM's dither.

Let's rephrase this discussion.
I can see a world where Toranaga is scum, though I find it unlikely.
I can easily see a world where Sergtacos is scum - do you have evidence or thoughts that clear him?
If you don't, do you have an argument that justifies not clearing him off the board at this juncture?

[Thor665]

Congratulations you airhead for randomly insulting someone raising a valid concern and someone else disabusing it?
Dork face.

[Thor665]

I don't have anything that clears Taco.

Okay, let's take this then a step further.
Do you scum read Taco more or less than Toranaga and why?

[Thor665]

Congratulations you airhead for randomly insulting someone raising a valid concern and someone else disabusing it?
Dork face.

pay attention to the game.

mulch visited HEM. that outed him because I'm town tracker.

if I'm scum with mulch, I can make the HEM NK and he sends fruit to whoever.

mulch sent fruit because he couldn't afford having me alive tracking his partner.

I said that 300 times on d4 and you still didn't pick up.

Pay attention to what I'm doing.

Last i checked I wasn't voting your dork face whiny butt.

[Thor665]

I almost want to just for making me have to have this conversation.

[Thor665]

I don't expect anyone in this game to be doing anything pro-town, especially as a levelling play

Well, sure, if you randomly assume people's thoughts you might get some negative presumptions going.

[Thor665]

If you think anyone here is confirmed you're a fool.
What else are we talking about?

[Thor665]

Why aren't you guys trying to dig for information?

What information do you think I should be digging for?
Literally the only thing stopping me from voting you right now is that I'd like to see fitz offer up some thoughts.
That's all I've got.

[Thor665]

So many pagetops claimed, so few VCs.


FItz's v/la ends today, hopefully he'll do something to make me feel better about his slot.

[Thor665]

Meh and double meh.

[Thor665]

vote: thor665

From someone who likes to complain about how bad everyone is playing we get this

[Thor665]

vote: thor665

From someone who likes to complain about how bad everyone is playing we get this

you are a 2009 account not hardclearing me. I got L-1 and I waited to see who caps, and yet you didn't come here to say 'let's not do this please', oh no, what did you to thor. 'meh and more meh'. that's scummy.

So it's a scumtell to not hardclear you even though I've been actively defending you for days from people who openly scumread you?
Tell me more about this amazing tell wherein I haven't been defending you.
Would you like a hug and for me to tell you how special you are for self voting and whining like Mulch?
Who was scum.
So if you're town you're playing like how someone who was scum thought the game should be played.
jfc maybe?
You tell me.

[Thor665]

You also did your "test" after I finally noted, after days of defense, that you were being so whiny I almost was willing to let you die.
Really neat "test" huh?

[Thor665]

for you, yes. for you it's a scumtell. because you have been playing this for near a decade. you understand at least the basics of the mechanics to know 1) the setup does not exist in MS when I'm scum and 2) Mulch' visiting HEM hardclears me. you're the only player here that's supposed to know better, and yet you pretend you don't.

By that logic you're scum.

also, you have played with mulch before, and IIRC mulch in both alignments. you refused to acknowledge the great disparity between his scum and town play. you read him townie when it was pretty obvious by skimming his other games that this was hitting exactly his scum range, not his town range at all.

You're misrepresenting what I was actually arguing there - but I'll agree that I handwaved your meta case on him.
So?
That's still not a particularly valid case - and you should be aware of that.

[Thor665]

you're also hardcore POE'd down if we are to clear tacos on the mulch interactions

If I'm hardcore process of eliminationed down then you're using poor logic or are scum.
So what'sthe clear logic that clears Fitz and Serg and not me?
I'd love to hear that explained without you sounding daft.

I'm starting to think a fitz/you lynch is the way to a win right now.
And I'm even thinking its not you and you're just being daft.
Which leaves me wondering why you're clearing fitz for scum reading you and scum reading me for no defending you enough.

[Thor665]

fair to say fitz is hardcleared due to mulch f9 spew

f9 spew?

[Thor665]

fair to say fitz is hardcleared due to mulch f9 spew

f9 spew?

yes, the spew from when we had 9 players left.

with skitter dead, scum!mulch could not hard tunnel a scum player to get him lynched because he could never lategame with it. the reason is, scum!mulch would 'send fruit' 3 nights in a row exactly to the NK, which would make him very likely the last scum. he'd also eventually out himself on town PRs flipping, as you said, for the unlikelihood all PR claims are town (as 5 is overkill in a 13er).

mulch absolutely needed mislynches that gameday, and screamed the hardest for the fitz lynch. so fitz has to be town.

I'll have to go back and look at that - but I didn't feel like Mulch was actually pushing much of either of them that well.
Also, I would note I just lynched Skitter - it would be daft of him to push me if I was town jsut as much as it would be daft to push me if I was scum.
So the logic here is very thin as far as I can see.

you wanted to lynch tacos the entire game and now it's either me or fitz huh

Yes.
And?