The New Newbie Game Setup

[Realeo]

How to use:

Pick a red side randomly to choose what makes the mafia team.

For each green triangle that is attached to the chosen red side, pick one role randomly.

Add 5 Vanilla Townie to get the full setup.

[Realeo]

Proposed role interaction resolution:

1. Should a
   Mafia Roleblocker
   and
   Town Roleblocker
   target each other, the
   Mafia Roleblocker
   will fail at making the night kill; should the
   Mafia Roleblocker
   not be assigned the night kill, there will be no other impact.
   
2. Should a
   Mafia Roleblocker
   target a
   Town Roleblocker
   who targets a
   Town Jailkeeper
   who targets the
   Mafia Roleblocker
   , the
   Mafia Roleblocker
   will not be blocked, but the two
   Town
   roles will be blocked. Similarly, should a
   Mafia Roleblocker
   target a
   Town Jailkeeper
   who targets a
   Town Roleblocker
   who targets the
   Mafia Roleblocker
   , the
   Mafia Roleblocker
   will not be blocked, but the two
   Town
   roles will be blocked.
   
3. In all other cases, Roleblocker actions will take precedence over
   Jailkeeper
   actions should that apply.

Basically this punishes town for having roles that block town, which I think is reasonable from a fairness perspective, since the alternative gives town a LOT of latitude to make bad decisions and get away with them.

This is rather confusing to me and IMO will result in a lot of mod errors

There needs to be a rule for what happens in the theee blocker Rock Paper Scissors scenarios. Nit sure how to make it clearer tho.

I think it's very clear. The wording is what I expect from a technical document.

It just need some rewording for ESL.

Duel rule

Mafia Roleblocker

loses against

Town Roleblocker

in a two way roleblocking, but wins against

Town Jailkeeper

Cyclic rule

If

Mafia Roleblocker

,

Town Roleblocker

, and

Town Jailkeeper

involved in an cycle of roleblocking and

Mafia Roleblocker

carries the kill action, the kill action goes through

[fferyllt]

How to use:

Pick a red side randomly to choose what makes the mafia team.

For each green triangle that is attached to the chosen red side, pick one role randomly.

Add 5 Vanilla Townie to get the full setup.

And the green triangle that doesn't touch the mafia role contains safe-claims for mafia.

I think this works ok for the visually oriented player. The list of 12 setups is probably the way to go if you're text oriented. And each of the 12 setups could have a parenthetical with the roles that are safe for mafia to claim in that particular setup, maybe. Though maybe that would be TOO spelled out, at least in terms of the apparent transparency /transluscency of the Matrix6 setup when it was initially rolled out.

[Something_Smart]

If you use that diagram you have to rename the setup Triforce12.

[Gamma Emerald]

I can live with that name

[Not Known 15]

The problem is the blatant imbalance between some setups that suggests that we probably will get some lopsided setups. Not fun...

[Something_Smart]

Idk I'm not here to discuss the balance of the setup. That's already been done. I'm just here to help find the clearest way to present it.

[T-Bone]

The problem is the blatant imbalance between some setups that suggests that we probably will get some lopsided setups. Not fun...

Your comments are appreciated. But realize that this change isn't being made lightly and some very smart people have been working on this for a long time, and they have an understanding of how this might play out.

[Mulch]

The problem is the blatant imbalance between some setups that suggests that we probably will get some lopsided setups. Not fun...

[Not Known 15]

The problem is the blatant imbalance between some setups that suggests that we probably will get some lopsided setups. Not fun...

Your comments are appreciated. But realize that this change isn't being made lightly and some very smart people have been working on this for a long time, and they have an understanding of how this might play out.

Well, then go ahead and enlighten us please. I am far from being the only one who said this, and an earlier post of mine had an analysis of possible problems. Even if you think that these very smart people discussed balance ad nauseam: Part of publicizing is getting scrunity from a larger base of players. Yes a group may be comprised of very smart people but it is well known that even smart people miss things sometimes. Even in a group. So please do counter my arguments and the arguments of others; I have no problem with being wrong, and I am new to this site so I have a good chance to be wrong. But I think the newbie game setup is a quite sensible thing:If you get it wrong, then...

[JaeReed]

Ehhh I wasn't sure I wanted to get involved here....

I'm a little concerned that the need for such in-depth discussion on role interactions is needed for a newbie setup and whether that might turn off newer players to the game. I think role discussion surfaces often enough in games that this could be an issue, and with claims there's going to inevitably be a fair amount of confusion even if interactions are laid out in the first post.

[callforjudgement]

Right, my point about the three-way block interaction wasn't so much "are you sure this interaction works how you want?" as "are you sure that an interaction this complex, and very likely to be moderated incorrectly, has a place in newbie games?".

How does it change the balance of the setup to make one or more of the blockers unblockable? That would help simplify things a lot.

[Toomai]

How does it change the balance of the setup to make one or more of the blockers unblockable? That would help simplify things a lot.

It's pretty important for the town RB to be capable of blocking the scum RB if the scum guesses wrong for who the town PR is. (and vice versa)

[N]

A d3 is normally a d6 with the same number on opposite sides.

It's possible to construct a fair dice which does have exactly three sides (basically you start with a triangular prism and then curve the sides to meet at a point at each end), but people rarely bother.

my point is that it's a bad name

[mhsmith0]

You could probably make the town roleblocker either strongwilled or ascetic, so that the relationships become much less complicated (since it can never be blocked, it becomes automatically primary in all relationships).

Whether strongwilled or ascetic depends on whether you think it in that case deserves a nerf since it can't be blocked (and ascetic removes ability of town investigatives to look at the slot), or whether it's fine to just remove the complications from the role and be done with it.

[Toomai]

I'm of the opinion that as long as the cross-blocking/circular-blocking interactions are given canonical listmod-designated setup-mandated resolution instructions that players and mods alike can refer to at any time (probably in the newbie queue's setup post, and ideally also in the setup post of every game), it doesn't matter too much what exactly the resolution is. If someone gets it wrong even after that, what can you do.

[Cabd]

probably in the newbie queue's setup post, and ideally also in the setup post of every game

The next action item is a standardized mod and IC boilerplate template.

FWIW given scum always has daytalk, I"m in favor of the town roleblocker having priority.

[Toomai]

Also, here's my new idea for displaying the setup matrix and explaining the generation rules:

	A	B	C
	Mafia Roleblocker	Mafia Rolecop	Mafia Goon
1	Town Doctor	Town Tracker	Town Cop
2	Town Rolecop	Town Roleblocker	Town Jailkeeper

1. Pick one of the three columns (A, B, or C) at random. The role from the top row is paired with a Mafia Goon to form the scum team.
   
2. From each of the two other columns, randomly choose the role from either row 1 or row 2. These two roles are added to the town.
   
3. Add 5 Vanilla Townies to complete the 7v2 setup.

I now think simple is the way to go with this. It's basically the original 3x3 table, but with headers added for a more concrete explanation than "one from each column".

The subsetup shortform names would be:

• A11: RB x Tracker + Cop
  
• A12: RB x Tracker + JK
  
• A21: RB x RB + Cop
  
• A22: RB x RB + JK
  
• 1B1: RC x Doctor + Cop
  
• 1B2: RC x Doctor + JK
  
• 2B1: RC x RC + Cop
  
• 2B2: RC x RC + JK
  
• 11C: Goon x Doctor + Tracker
  
• 12C: Goon x Doctor + RB
  
• 21C: Goon x RC + Tracker
  
• 22C: Goon x RC + RB

(Maybe B21 is better than 2B1? Unsure. I think 2B1 is easier to read across the columns.)

[RadiantCowbells]

I've thought about it long enough and I'm officially against the changes.

Scum winrates will skyrocket.

[Virtuoso]

what do you think of my proposal?

[PenguinPower]

I've thought about it long enough and I'm officially against the changes.

Scum winrates will skyrocket.

I am intentionally hanging back right now, but I do value your input.

You would prefer to keep the setup the same? What changes would you propose? What is the scum winrate over the past ~20 completed games? You think this setup would make that worse? Why?

I'm glad for feedback, but make it constructive.

[Virtuoso]

@Penguin - what are your thoughts on the setup I proposed?

[PenguinPower]

@Penguin - what are your thoughts on the setup I proposed?

No.

[PenguinPower]

@Penguin - what are your thoughts on the setup I proposed?

No.

I don't mean to be so blunt, but I'm not looking for a complete setup change without reasoning behind it.

[Virtuoso]

@Penguin - what are your thoughts on the setup I proposed?

No.

I don't mean to be so blunt, but I'm not looking for a complete setup change without reasoning behind it.

Fair enough.

	A	B	C
1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon (if row 1) Mafia Rolecop (if column c)
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
3	Town Backup (if A) Town Roleblocker (if 3)	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

I think this setup is reasonable and will fix the setup without altering it too much. I firmly believe in keeping things simple and I don't think the 3d3 role is simple. There's too many complexities that will make players confused and even make mods confused. Combine that with day talk and, as RC said, scum win rates will sky rocket.

The setup I am proposing is not that far different from Matrix 6. It fixes the bulletproof claiming strategy and it completely destroys the follow the tracker strategy.

I don't understand the whole triangle setup at all.