Normal 1934: Civilization Mafia Mafia (Endgame)

MathBlade · Post Post #1600 (ISO) » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:36 pm

In post 1598, PenguinPower wrote:
In post 1595, Gamma Emerald wrote:If I remember correctly you only do it when you're trying to case someone right?
Pretty much. It's not hard set, but, yep.

Bullshirt.

If it wasn't close to midnight I would find it.

Penguin Power puts forth a fuck ton more than this in the games I have played with Penguin Power.

Gamma Emerald · Post Post #1601 (ISO) » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:21 pm

Last time I played him he said something to that extent. What was your last game with him?

Gamma Emerald · Post Post #1602 (ISO) » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:30 pm

I guess other than Railgun btw since he entered late iirc

MathBlade · Post Post #1603 (ISO) » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:24 am

In post 1602, Gamma Emerald wrote:I guess other than Railgun btw since he entered late iirc

Oh you mean except the game that actually matters because he was a replacement there and a replacement here.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=71732&user_select[]=28106

Look at the cut of Power's jib in that game. Power gives opinions and pushes things.

He read enough of the thread to understand it and make smart ass comments.

Seriously. The fact Power isn't commenting / making a decision on anything means he is scum.

PenguinPower · Post Post #1604 (ISO) » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:52 am

You've played two games with me (that I recall), and neither turned out well for you (one didn't for me because of your derp push on my slot). Two games is hardly enough for you to try and meta me, especially when I was town in both.

That said, there were also distinct differences in that game versus this one. (Also, show me where I provided my reads or cased anyone in that game. I don't do that except when I am doing rainbow reads for the lulz).

You act as if I am not providing any insight into my thoughts, which is flat out wrong. I just said that I'm trying to decide between you and Drixx right now. You are making that decision easier.

MathBlade · Post Post #1605 (ISO) » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:28 am

I have to go to work but you do short snippy posts with declaratives.

Here you are doing short snippy posts with waffles.

Nice threat btw, sure as hell don't do that as Town.

PenguinPower · Post Post #1606 (ISO) » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:34 am

I do like waffles. Chicken and waffles...mmmm.

It's not a threat. It's a declarative. I apparently do that as town.

Gamma Emerald · Post Post #1607 (ISO) » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:25 am

In post 1603, MathBlade wrote:
In post 1602, Gamma Emerald wrote:I guess other than Railgun btw since he entered late iirc
Oh you mean except the game that actually matters because he was a replacement there and a replacement here.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=71732&user_select[]=28106

Look at the cut of Power's jib in that game. Power gives opinions and pushes things.

He read enough of the thread to understand it and make smart ass comments.

Seriously. The fact Power isn't commenting / making a decision on anything means he is scum.

There are several differences however. I don't particularly care to argue this anymore because I wouldn't be able to say anything meaningful that Penguin wouldn't.

Grendel · Post Post #1608 (ISO) » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:37 am

Dark Horse’s early game posts, (Pages 1-4), are acceptable. The move to Tchill makes sense, and is natural given the game state.

Spoiler:

341 to 552 is an odd transition where Dark horse soft defends vecna’s predecessor, then comes back and vote Vecna later with no open read progression. If I get a chance I need to recheck the nearly two hundred posts that happened between this and Dark horses last post. I don’t recalled Vecna doing anything that would shift a light town read to scum with no hesitation.

Spoiler:

Considering that 2/3players on that triangle have flipped town, and the low likelyhood of DrixxxLime, I think this is increases them to a mutally exclusive relationship material.

Its also odd that Vecna, the one who thought of the triangle, was among Dark Horse’s scum reads. That implies that Dark Horse may not be paying mind to the one he was professing to scum read.

Spoiler:

3rd party spec is gross.

Spoiler:

In post 970, Dark Horse wrote:Robb vs eddie continyes to be a waste of time and is leading town away from people who are actually scummy. Both of you cut it. Robb quit trying to justify yourself with the same "B-b-but I've caught scum!" Eddie quit claiming that we need to get robb lynched just because he's tunneling you

Dark horse often mirrored my thoughts and opinions throughout the game. While he had gone under the radar for quite awhile my recent paranoia of the slot has been reaffirmed with my review. Dark Horse looked very much like he saw I was moving in the wrong direction, and helped keep my momentum going. With the added bonas of linking his slot to mine, of course.

Its not impossible that we meshed really well. But the entirelty of the game there was no attempt to reach out to me preersonally, or anything like that. Like no talking on his end to me that wasn’t initiated from my side. There was that defense of my actions which could potentially make me look like scum with him post flip though.

Its annoying that I didn’t catch this until well after it happened. Sheesh.

Spoiler:

Outside of events where DarkHorse is preemptively bussing I think that this reaction points against Dark and kort’s slots being scum together. If not then it would be poor play to draw extended attention to a buddy while pushing elsewhere, (Monkey), when at that point Korts was only just starting to get real pressure.

Spoiler:

This looks a like a pt slip in retrospect. In the first one he was talking to his buddies. Then he comes into the main thread to answer Gingie. This would be in a world where Dark Horse is scum power role.

-/-/-/-/-/-/-

While Dark Horse had a more minimalistic posting style I can say that what I recalled away from the game is pretty close to what it looked like while rereading. Meaning, Dark Horse's slot is scum flying under the radar.

I'll look at Lime now but probably won't directly quote him due to his heavy post formatting. This would probably be a good time to learn how to hyperlink posts here. (I never learned see)

Gamma Emerald · Post Post #1609 (ISO) » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:46 am

Code: Select all

[post=#9469962]Your text here[/post]

Your text here
fyi this goes to post 1, you can use the tiny page icon next to the part that says "Post XXXX by PlayerName >> DD Month YYYY Time of post" to get that 7 number string that links to the post

Grendel · Post Post #1610 (ISO) » Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:54 am

Thanks Gamma

-/-/-/-/-

Thoughts on Lime

---Why is Lime town reading me? I see where he made that wall to debunk a reads list of mine. It ended with him saying it almost sounds like it comes from a Bad!town mindset 1402. It sounds like a pretty minor reason to think I’m town. Or as Lime put it, -not scum-

---1378. For the record I don’t think that that set up speculation is a scum tell on this site. In fact I think that this defense of nancy’s part regarding her claim is town like. In a situation where a player like Lime recognizes the standard set up meta they’d know that nancy stands a good chance of getting counter claimed by the remaining power roles. So another visting role wouldn’t fly well for Lime, and they wouldn’t want to vouch for it.

There is an “if” here though. If Lime’s slot is a scum power then Lime may have been defending their buddy after all. Because Lime would know the possible parameters could fit an extra role better as scum.

So a Goon/mostly Goon team makes this post town like, whereas the remaining two scum bieng power roles makes Lime’s post here scumy. This is usally the kind of notation I leave in the notes I don’t share publicay hehe.

---1469. I definitely think that Lime’s handling of the claims later in Day 3, and how he is poking for Drizz’s low-key claim today is the strongest point for Lime bieng town. Attempting to “role fish” as people call it is usually only a thing I see town do. Poking another player to learn their role draws a lot of negative attention, therefore most scum avoid doing it.

It also hurts LimexDrixx as a team. Lime also mentions being an alt of an anti-bus player. Which strengthens their ties to nancy.

---1475. I don't want to be a butt for accusing a player of hiding from scrutiny through their posting style. The thing is that a while back I asked for why the ++++++/------- posts were... what they were. For instance an explanation to why they left the strong impression that they did. Lime wasn't able to answer me on the "why". So seeing that Lime switch opinions on some of these and apparently be unable to explain it makes me wonder if Limes obscured game solving logic actually exists. Like is all for the convince of Lime forming the reads, or is it actually game solving?

-/-/-/-/-/-/-

Lime is a strong scum read.

Grendel · Post Post #1611 (ISO) » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:24 am

I may just bum rush skim Rob's ISO because half his iso is tunneling Percy/Eddie/Vedith/Penguin slot.

I'll say from the outset that I recognize that tunneling is a null thing for Rob, (as I found out half way through this game), so there won't be much if any focus there. That should save me some reading time.

-/-/-/-/-

@Gamma

What will it take to get you to stop active lurking?

I think you're town, but I'm getting really tired of dealing with this shtick of yours every game.

@Pengiun

I asked you to case out your Math/Drixx read. Did you miss that?

-/-/-/-/-/-

VOTE: LimeInTheCoconut

Gamma Emerald · Post Post #1612 (ISO) » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:29 am

What are you using as your definition of "active lurking"? I'm not sure if it's actually an issue with my playstyle or I just end up always doing it when I play with you.

Grendel · Post Post #1613 (ISO) » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:42 am

That's what I'm saying. You always do this to -me-. You come in a always post the same surface level crap that makes playing with you a real chore. A player with no knowledge of the game could come in and say half the stuff you do.

Like why do you keep signing up to play with me if you aren't going to give the game any reasonable effort.

Do you not have the respect for me as a player to take playing with me seriously? To take this game seriously?

lime in da coconut · Post Post #1614 (ISO) » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:22 pm

In post 1603, MathBlade wrote:
In post 1602, Gamma Emerald wrote:I guess other than Railgun btw since he entered late iirc
Oh you mean except the game that actually matters because he was a replacement there and a replacement here.

I am concerned! These are my thoughts exactly.
I am concerned! That of all Mathblade did preach.
I am concerned! These are my thoughts exactly.
I am concerned! That of all Mathblade did preach.

I am rather alarmed by Mathblade's competency. I am used to a town-Mathblade being largely unreasonable, and a scum-Mathblade displaying this level of accuracy. However, the Mathblade I am seeing here is dead on the money with this point. Had they not made the comment,

I

would have.

In post 1585, PenguinPower wrote:
In post 1581, lime in da coconut wrote:I realize I spearheaded a Drixx push, but nothing kills my interest in wagoning there faster than my primary and secondary suspects voting the wagon. Drixx is right:
You did? Where was your vote on the wagon? First, second, not at all?

You can spearhead a push while off, it requires voting not,
You can spearhead a push while off, it requires voting not.

Voting =/= pushing; pushing =/= voting. Most votes are pushes; most pushes have votes. But the two are not synonymous. I spearheaded a Drixx push, while holding off from voting him. (Admittedly I normally would be voting by now but I am treating today as if lylo when it comes to my vote. I have good reason to be cautious, because a mislynch is likely to cost the town the game and my vote would further the risk of that as I am not nearly confident enough in anything I have.)

In post 1589, Grendel wrote:-Did Korts ever become a real wagon this game? I didn't see anything in the VCs but I am pretty sure he got wagoned up a few times right?

Not even once! Until it was Drixx of course.
Not even once! Nobody thought to push Korts.
Not even once! Until it was Drixx of course.
Not even once! Nobody thought to push Korts.

From memory, the first time the wagon garnered votes was when it already belonged to Drixx. Prior to that, I'd have to double-check to confirm but I actually don't think Korts received so much as a single vote, yet alone a full wagon.

I am not Dark Horse so I can't answer for all of Grendel's griefs with the slot. I can however provide some possible insight.

In post 1608, Grendel wrote:I don’t recalled Vecna doing anything that would shift a light town read to scum with no hesitation.

I do. It's called "It's Vecna". Vecna is the sort of player everyone is inclined to naturally scumread. I'd honestly find it more suspicious if someone maintained a townread on the slot after he came in. Having played with him, can you honestly tell me this is an inaccurate assessment of Vecna? Ignore hindsight bias and think to what you thought at the time, witnessing Vecna's antics. Calling Vecna town is by far more suspicious than thinking he could be scum.

In post 1608, Grendel wrote:
Spoiler:
In post 474, Dark Horse wrote:Nancy what do you think of vecna? I can definitely see the kotrs-monkey-tchill triangle.
Considering that 2/3players on that triangle have flipped town, and the low likelyhood of DrixxxLime, I think this is increases them to a mutally exclusive relationship material. Its also odd that Vecna, the one who thought of the triangle, was among Dark Horse’s scum reads. That implies that Dark Horse may not be paying mind to the one he was professing to scum read.

Are you familiar with the concept of "one of/in three"? It is the idea that scum have a natural tendency to list a scumbuddy in a list of three names (usually scumreads but sometimes also extended to townreads). Vecna's triangle can essentially be thought of as making the callout "one of these three is scum and the other two are town". Dark Horse can easily agree with this while still finding Vecna a possible scum candidate, as bussing/distancing in the form of a one-in-three method is an incredibly common tactic. Furthermore, Dark Horse could be the type of player similar to me. (I wouldn't know for sure.)

Were that the case, then there is nothing guaranteeing the viewpoint of "one of these is scum" is accurate. In short, if Dark Horse has a natural tendency to doubt his scumreads, then it'd be fully possible he thought it was possible he could be wrong on the triangle-scum and that Vecna would be scum pushing three town players. Also possible? Vecna being town (and thus the scumread there being wrong), with the triangle-scum theory being right.

In other words, Dark Horse may have thought someone in the triangle was likely scum, and

separately

thought Vecna was possible scum, and that there were multiple ways this could resolve. (Vecna bussing/distancing, Vecna town with the triangle containing scum, Vecna scum with the triangle as all town.) I would hold a position much the same (in fact this is essentially my current dilemma); the only difference in how I would handle it is I would explicitly vocalize my inability to be decisive.

In post 1608, Grendel wrote:Dark horse often mirrored my thoughts and opinions throughout the game. While he had gone under the radar for quite awhile my recent paranoia of the slot has been reaffirmed with my review. Dark Horse looked very much like he saw I was moving in the wrong direction, and helped keep my momentum going. With the added bonas of linking his slot to mine, of course.

Food for thought: do you realize this same argument works in reverse? That I could just as easily argue you mirrored my slot throughout the game, while being under the radar, seeing my slot heading the wrong direction and encouraging it knowing it would link our slots?

Can you say that is not a possible viewpoint without using your own role PM as evidence? As in, can you point to any in-thread evidence which would demonstrate this couldn't be a possible perspective? Of course you know it's wrong, because you know you're town. Of course you know that it's not true. But you can't give any evidence, can you?

...My point exactly. I can't give any evidence outside of knowing Dark Horse was town. What prevents this from simply being two town players having seen the same thing? You mention:

In post 1608, Grendel wrote:Its not impossible that we meshed really well. But the entirelty of the game there was no attempt to reach out to me preersonally, or anything like that.

...But I don't recall seeing much in the way of you reaching out to Dark Horse. Not a single "

@Dark Horse:

" in your iso. You never reached out to him personally. So again, tell me why. Tell me why he is scum, when you did exactly the same thing and you are town.

In post 1608, Grendel wrote:This looks a like a pt slip in retrospect. In the first one he was talking to his buddies. Then he comes into the main thread to answer Gingie. This would be in a world where Dark Horse is scum power role.

This never works as an explanation for multiple reasons. For starters, scum already know who a scum-Dark Horse would have targeted. They would have bolded actions in the PT. Thus, they would already be quite aware Dark Horse hadn't targeted Tchill. There's also the requirement for my slot to have been a scum PR. Though I admit that there likely is a scum PR, it is going to be one PR only, and one weaker one at that.

PenguinPower · Post Post #1615 (ISO) » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:26 pm

In post 1611, Grendel wrote:I asked you to case out your Math/Drixx read. Did you miss that?

No.

At the very least, I'm not casing anyone until I've decided where I want to go.

PenguinPower · Post Post #1616 (ISO) » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:28 pm

In post 1614, lime in da coconut wrote:Voting =/= pushing; pushing =/= voting. Most votes are pushes; most pushes have votes. But the two are not synonymous. I spearheaded a Drixx push, while holding off from voting him. (Admittedly I normally would be voting by now but I am treating today as if lylo when it comes to my vote. I have good reason to be cautious, because a mislynch is likely to cost the town the game and my vote would further the risk of that as I am not nearly confident enough in anything I have.)

A push without a vote is a wiggle room creator. At the very best, it's a weak push. It's not anywhere close to "spearheading."

Ginngie · Post Post #1617 (ISO) » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:29 pm

I'm bored

PenguinPower · Post Post #1618 (ISO) » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:36 pm

lime in da coconut · Post Post #1619 (ISO) » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:41 pm

To elaborate,

In post 1614, lime in da coconut wrote:I would hold a position much the same (in fact this is essentially my current dilemma); the only difference in how I would handle it is I would explicitly vocalize my inability to be decisive.

The current dilemma is in finding some players individually suspicious (Mathblade and Drixx mostly), yet also finding they raise good points. Iso me for the times I call out Drixx as suspicious yet agree with him, and the numerous times I call Mathblade's rationality something which freaks me out. I don't have an answer to my own triangle dilemma as it were.

In post 1614, lime in da coconut wrote:There's also the requirement for my slot to have been a scum PR. Though I admit that there likely is a scum PR, it is going to be one PR only, and one weaker one at that.

Pray tell, what scum power role would target the nightkill Tchill? Rolecop? Tchill had already claimed and the scum were nightkilling him anyway. Roleblocker? We already know from seeing Tchill's kill go through that is not the case. Tracker? Why track the vig when the scum know who the vig killed by virtue of knowing who THEY killed? (The vig killed whoever the scum did not.)

Strongman? We already know by virtue of nancy claiming to visit the kill that nancy was the one who made the kill (she would not have claimed the visit if she did not visit), thus, scum either don't have one or already used it up. Ninja? Exactly the same thing, nancy the goon made the nightkill and thus scum cannot have a ninja they haven't used. Watcher? If the scum had a watcher, they would have known Ginngie's claim was bullshitting because scum having an exact duplicate of a town role is something nigh-impossible in Normals.

There aren't many plausible roles scum could have which they would actually use on Tchill in the first place. So Dark Horse would have no need to say he didn't target Tchill to his scumbuddies because there's no scum role he could be where he would have ever done so in the first place. While I believe the scum have a PR, I believe that PR to be either useless or gated. (Possibly both but unlikely.) If not from the onset, then after all the town's roles have claimed and were killed early. Any role the scum have is a role they either can't use or have no use for at this point.

Ginngie · Post Post #1620 (ISO) » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:41 pm

did we mass claim yet?

Gamma Emerald · Post Post #1621 (ISO) » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:56 pm

In post 1613, Grendel wrote:That's what I'm saying. You always do this to -me-. You come in a always post the same surface level crap that makes playing with you a real chore. A player with no knowledge of the game could come in and say half the stuff you do.

Like why do you keep signing up to play with me if you aren't going to give the game any reasonable effort.

Do you not have the respect for me as a player to take playing with me seriously? To take this game seriously?

I don't know. For some reason I just struggle. Maybe I just get lazy, knowing you can read me.

lime in da coconut · Post Post #1622 (ISO) » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:09 pm

In post 1610, Grendel wrote:---Why is Lime town reading me?

Honestly I don't like saying gut, but it's no matter what,
Honestly I don't like saying gut, but it's no matter what.

I really, really, really hate the idea of calling a read gut. I prefer there to be a rational explanation for why I am pushing what I am. I could maybe say a combination of vague familiarity with your play (halfhearted meta) with my mental compilation of notes, but honestly I wanted the time to explore the read and I don't have it. I think you are town, and I want to figure out

why

I think you are town, but all I have at the moment is best guesses for why I'm so inclined to write you off as town.

In post 1610, Grendel wrote:So a Goon/mostly Goon team makes this post town like, whereas the remaining two scum bieng power roles makes Lime’s post here scumy.

I say watch roles! They tell you what is balanced.
I say watch roles! They give me my best defense.
I say watch roles! They tell you what is balanced.
I say watch roles! They give me my best defense.

Okay, here's a thought. What POSSIBLE world is there where our flipped power roles are balanced against a two-scum-PR team? Vigilante is strong, Novice Cop is strong, and Jailkeeper are strong, but they have zero synergy. The Jailkeeper prevents the cop from getting results; the Jailkeeper has two ways of stopping the Vigilante from successfully killing. The backup vanilla cop is a role which can only get a guilty on scum lying about being a PR (if a goon) or about being a VT (if a PR), and it requires the cop to die first.

A scumteam against that level of power

does

need a power role: one. One weaker role, usually in the form of a gated role. If you give the scumteam a second power role, the game goes from being balanced to being ridiculously scumsided because there is no way a town can possibly triumph over two scum PRs with this combination, especially since TWO scum power roles would be dangerously close to providing the scumteam a counter to every town power role.

I can tell you with my intimate level of Normal Game experience, reviewers will never let fly a scumteam having a counter to every town power,
or anything even remotely close to resembling such. You

could

have a point if there were another claimed PR (which I would promptly try to lynch even if it were Ginngie at this stage honestly), but since nobody is willing to come forward and roleclaim in spite of this being the day before lylo...it is a fairly safe assumption the town does not hold any extra power. No extra town power, no extra scum power is even remotely possible.

In post 1610, Grendel wrote:Lime also mentions being an alt of an anti-bus player. Which strengthens their ties to nancy.

I honestly don't have a defense against this point because I am fully aware of how bad it looks. I

could

give one if I compromised my anonymity, but the closest I can give while preserving it: this is something I would never normally admit, but nancy is a player who I give a *whatever the female equivalent of a bropass is called (sispass?)* to. I typically don't put much effort into sorting her alignment unless I absolutely have to. I put some in because by playing on this alt I have no justification for not doing so (plus there was a need for it), but she is not someone I enjoy needing to sort since I'd rather just call her town regardless of her alignment.

In post 1610, Grendel wrote:The thing is that a while back I asked for why the ++++++/------- posts were... what they were. For instance an explanation to why they left the strong impression that they did. Lime wasn't able to answer me on the "why".

Don't give me that shit. I told you I didn't understand. I told you to reframe the question in a way I would understand. You never did. That's on YOU, not me. I also said explicitly I was expecting players to compare the two and ask for discrepancies between them: posts being marked in one which aren't marked in another; posts being marked with different levels of strength; posts being marked as positive (scum-indicative) one time through which were marked as negative (town-indicative) the second time through. You didn't do so and have continued to not do so.

My logic exists. But if you give me this generalization crap of course I'm not going to answer. I already told you to give me specifics. You haven't.

lime in da coconut · Post Post #1623 (ISO) » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:24 pm

In post 1621, Gamma Emerald wrote:I don't know. For some reason I just struggle. Maybe I just get lazy, knowing you can read me.

This is honestly one of the first things Gamma has said which I townread but if you asked me for a justification it would be "gut". At the very least, he's much lower on my lynch totem pole right now.

In post 1620, Ginngie wrote:did we mass claim yet?

No, which I take great issue with, not doing it is shit,
No, which I take great issue with, not doing it is shit.

We have not massclaimed even though by all rights we

should

have. It is absolutely the correct play to have made at this point, and yet for some reason the massclaim fell apart. We started, yet never finished.

In post 1616, PenguinPower wrote:A push without a vote is a wiggle room creator. At the very best, it's a weak push. It's not anywhere close to "spearheading."

In post 1615, PenguinPower wrote:
In post 1611, Grendel wrote:I asked you to case out your Math/Drixx read. Did you miss that?
No. At the very least, I'm not casing anyone until I've decided where I want to go.

I say bullshit! This is making an excuse.
I say bullshit! You are looking just to cruise.
I say bullshit! This is making an excuse.
I say bullshit! You are looking just to cruise.

No need for out-of-character text here; the song says it all. PenguinPower is making an excuse to cruise by without actually providing hard content. He is testing the waters first for the greatest opportunity. Ironically enough the post I also include demonstrates this even better. He is making excuses for not pushing players.
VOTE: PenguinPower.

PenguinPower · Post Post #1624 (ISO) » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:37 pm

Um...ok.

You haven't played with me either then.