Open 698: Stack the Deck (GAME OVER)

[IceGuy]

I tend to capitalize when I'm referring to a specific faction and not capitalize when just using the generic town/scum terminology. First time someone's found that scummy, though memorably not the first time I've had people calling me scum over capitalization. Not pulling a stunt like that again anytime soon...

Thanks for posting! Anything else to say?

The issue is that I am not sure what is your definition of constructive

Constructive in that context is: Contributes to the game with a town mindset, which involves a honest approach to discussion.

Iceguy why do you tr Chip?

Question has already been answered. I believe he does things wrong, but he comes from a towny position.

That's irrelevant as it neither applies to you nor me so far.

You've stated you're willing to compromise on lynching players who currently have zero votes.

Yes. If the person I want to lynch most doesn't get lynched, and any of the other would.

Why shouldn't I mention it in my post? It's factual, and I'm not going to waste my time justifying it to you.

As I said, you're squirreling away. This is not town behavior. In Mafia, you don't just state a fact.

Read list:

Assemblerowts

- Powerlurker. Only post that is not RVS or answers a question coming from RVS is a reply to my post. No reads, no content, and there's this strange capitalization. Even if he's not scum for some reason, town improves by getting rid of him.

Scum, will vote if wagon forms

Realeo

- Contributes constructively, uses meta to his advantage. A bit arrogant, but partly justified because he's mostly posting things that are true.

Town

Chip Butty

- Calls out UnaBombaH and Duckworth, people I consider to be in the scum/powerlurker category. Generally is not averse to starting wagons and often (not always) has good reasons for it.

Town

GameNBurger

- At first, he did contribute, however he's now firmly in lurker territory. #138 is a good post, if he'd kept up posting things like this, he'd be town. I believe he has RL issues, so I'm not going to sort him in the scum category.

Neutral

ironstove

- Completely useless player. No content at all which makes it hard to form reads.

Leaning scum or useless town, will probably vote if wagon forms

Luca Blight

- Changed my read because of his refusal to answer a simple question. In #304, he says Chip is "first name on [my] Townie list". In #308, I tell him that the order in the list has no significance, in #312 he says he was aware of it. Yet, he repeatedly claims that he "just posted a fact" and refuses to say why he posted it (#317, #337).

Leaning scum, will probably vote if wagon forms

DuckWorth

- Mostly lurker with a vote that reeks of OMGUS. Needs to post more and not just about Chip.

Leaning scum or useless town, will probably vote if wagon forms

Mulch

- SmoothBlue never posted outside of RVS and I simply can't read Mulch.

Neutral

Alchemist21

- Used to be the most constructive and interesting to read player in the game, however I feel he's been coasting recently, which changed my read. There's this nagging voice in my head that says he just tried to build up towncred, now got enough and plans to coast until a mislynch.

Leaning town

grapes

- Had a bad start but has evolved into a player that could post more but when he posts, is insightful and seems honest.

Leaning town

CommKnight

- See Alchemist. Was the first to post a comprehensive read list, but has contributed little since than.

Leaning town

UnaBombaH

- I believe I have already talked about this.

Scum, currently voting

[Alchemist21]

@Realeo

How do you feel about Unabombah?

I'd be willing to move over to Assemble with Iceguy, but still prefer the unabombah vote and if you're willing to move over here I'd rather do that. Either way I think having all of us on the same wagon will make it a lot stronger.

[CommKnight]

I'd prefer Chip/Una at this point. Both are at the lowest of the scale currently and both are likely scum.

[Alchemist21]

After 278 I've had Chip as "too entertaining to lynch today."

And in all seriousness 374 looks more Towny to me, and in the post before that, 369, the idea that he's being set up for a lynch looks like it comes from a state of Town paranoia.

[ironstove]

Hello, this is dog.

Good-bye.

Wake me up when it's day 2.

[Alchemist21]

Hello, this is dog.

Good-bye.

Wake me up when it's day 2.

No, BAD DOG!

You get in here and play the game like the rest of us.

[Chip Butty]

Hello, this is dog.

Good-bye.

Wake me up when it's day 2.

Don't make me roll up a magazine...

[Luca Blight]

Why shouldn't I mention it in my post? It's factual, and I'm not going to waste my time justifying it to you.

As I said, you're squirreling away. This is not town behavior. In Mafia, you don't just state a fact.

Luca Blight

- Changed my read because of his refusal to answer a simple question. In #304, he says Chip is "first name on [my] Townie list". In #308, I tell him that the order in the list has no significance, in #312 he says he was aware of it. Yet, he repeatedly claims that he "just posted a fact" and refuses to say why he posted it (#317, #337).

Leaning scum, will probably vote if wagon forms

I must say, I find this hilarious. I knew you'd be itching to find a way to change your read about me at some point as a defensive measure, but who knew your reasoning would be so laughable?

You've changed me from a Town-lean to a Scum-lean for one sole reason; because I said ChipButty was 'first one your townie list', and guess what?

Read list:

Town:

Chip Butty

/Alchemist/Realeo
Leaning town: Luca/CK/grapes
Neutral: Mulch/GNB
Leaning scum: ironstove/Duckworth
Scum: Assemble/UnaBombaH

He was first name on his Townie list. Now, if he was actually second or third name on his townie list and I was claiming he was first then fair enough I guess, but he literally is first name on the Townie list. As I later said, that doesn't mean his value is necessarily different on said list to Alch or Realeo, but nonetheless my statement holds true - you were the one trying to give it a deeper meaning that wasn't there.

He also says it's not Townie to not explain it - why would I explain such a non-issue to someone I strongly believe is scum trying to deflect away from my case against him? And guess what, now he is scumreading me for this trivial issue, so even though I didn't entertain his wish for an explanation, he managed to deflect anyway.

He earlier accused me of 'trying to find reasons to wagon him', but clearly he's now trying to find reasons to a) scumread me back and b) line up a wagon on me.

I still plan to make a comprehensive reads list when I have time, but I'll be hard-pressed to budge off my current vote as things stand.

[Mulch]

and I simply can't read Mulch

Why?

[Realeo]

@Realeo

How do you feel about Unabombah?

I'd be willing to move over to Assemble with Iceguy, but still prefer the unabombah vote and if you're willing to move over here I'd rather do that. Either way I think having all of us on the same wagon will make it a lot stronger.

Conflicted, cases against unabombah cases pretty much like Assembler, plus the "intentional fluffy" thing.

Need more input from both player, but for this case perhaps I should not coach them.

[Luca Blight]

Realeo, what are your thoughts on IceGuy's read-change of me that I highlighted above?

Do you believe it's a genuine/credible reason to justify a change from town-lean to scum-lean?

[Realeo]

Realeo, what are your thoughts on IceGuy's read-change of me that I highlighted above?

Do you believe it's a genuine/credible reason to justify a change from town-lean to scum-lean?

I have seen it done by both alignment, frankly.

I just wish that you choose other IceGuy's read beside ChipButty. At this point, it maybe done no justice. Personally, I'm interested at his DuckWorth's read but waiting for you to end the assault before I quiz him.

[Luca Blight]

Realeo, what are your thoughts on IceGuy's read-change of me that I highlighted above?

Do you believe it's a genuine/credible reason to justify a change from town-lean to scum-lean?

I have seen it done by both alignment, frankly.

I just wish that you choose other IceGuy's read beside ChipButty. At this point, it maybe done no justice. Personally, I'm interested at his DuckWorth's read but waiting for you to end the assault before I quiz him.

You've seen what done by both alignments?

My point regarding his ChipButty read is just one of many reasons for me suspecting IceGuy, but he subsequently looked scummier with his deflecting onto the trivial issue of what order ChipButty was in his Townie list, which was never of significance for me.

It's like he wanted to scum read me back and that's the only thing he could find, so he ran with it.

[Realeo]

You've seen what done by both alignments?

The town-lean to scum-lean for non-responsiveness thingy.

[Alchemist21]

@Luca

, I'm not really getting your push here. It seems like your original issue was that Ice moved Chip into his Townreads when he hadn't said anything positive about him, but since then you keep pointing out that Chip was listed first. Ice has stated the order wasn't indicative of the strength of those reads, and I'm not getting why you keep pressing the issue of the order of his Townreads over the fact that Chip is even a Townread to him at all.

[Luca Blight]

@Luca

, I'm not really getting your push here. It seems like your original issue was that Ice moved Chip into his Townreads when he hadn't said anything positive about him, but since then you keep pointing out that Chip was listed first. Ice has stated the order wasn't indicative of the strength of those reads, and I'm not getting why you keep pressing the issue of the order of his Townreads over the fact that Chip is even a Townread to him at all.

As I said in post 312 I recognise that his ChipButty read is not necessarily different from his other 'top-tier' reads - the whole thing is a non-issue and the only one focusing on it, if you care to read back, is IceGuy.

You're right that my original issue was that ChipButty was there in the first place, but the fact IceGuy is trying to deflect onto the irrelevant issue of me saying CB was first on the list, which as I said countless times was just a factual remark, and has used that trivial issue as a reason to change his scumread on me from town-lean to scum-lean (which is the most reachy thing I have seen in this thread) gives me even more reason to suspect him.

[Luca Blight]

Also Alch, can I get a reads list from you?

I want to see where your head's at in this game.

[Alchemist21]

Hmm... Looking back at how it started does make it seem like there was fault in both parties. I think both of you made assumptions about the other and never tried to clarify. It still feels like you're the one keeping the order an issue though. He might be the one calling it misrep, but you're engaging with that part of the argument more than the existence of the Townread itself and it makes me think you're just trying to push him without considering why you're pushing him and it doesn't seem like a Towny thought process imo.

Spoiler: My reads

1. Assemblerotws / - scumlean

2. Realeo - Town

3. Chip Butty - Townlean

4. GameNBurger - null

5. ironstove / - null

6. IceGuy - Townlean

7. Luca Blight - scumlean

8. Duckworth - null

9. Mulch SmoothBlue - null

11. grapes / - Townlean

12. CommKnight - Town

13. UnaBombaH - scum

[Luca Blight]

It still feels like you're the one keeping the order an issue though.

As you can see from the quotes below, Iceguy is the one who is continuing the issue and won't let it go, whereas I am the one trying to move on from it.

I've only seen him say negative things about him so far, yet suddenly he's first name on his Townie list.

Nice misrep. The names aren't ordered, "first place on Townie list" is the same as "third place on Townie list".

I've only seen him say negative things about him so far, yet suddenly he's first name on his Townie list.

Nice misrep. The names aren't ordered, "first place on Townie list" is the same as "third place on Townie list".

Also, you do not seem to get the distinction between "X does things I disagree with" and "X is scum". Should I explain it again, perhaps more slowly?

Misrep? you're really stretching the term there. I'm aware the first name had the same value as the third, I was just stating it as a literal fact.

If you were stating it just as a literal fact, why didn't you leave it off? The fact is readily apparent in my post, so there's no need to repeat it - unless you're trying to draw attention to it, which you deny.

3) Seriously, I'm not going to justify saying ChipButty was first on your Townie list when he was first on your Townie list. If you want to get sensitive over that then that's your prerogative but it feels a bit like you're deflecting away from the other issues.

Don't squirrel away. Why did you specifically mention it in your post?

Why shouldn't I mention it in my post? It's factual, and I'm not going to waste my time justifying it to you.

As I said, you're squirreling away. This is not town behavior. In Mafia, you don't just state a fact.

Luca Blight

- Changed my read because of his refusal to answer a simple question. In #304, he says Chip is "first name on [my] Townie list". In #308, I tell him that the order in the list has no significance, in #312 he says he was aware of it. Yet, he repeatedly claims that he "just posted a fact" and refuses to say why he posted it (#317, #337).

Leaning scum, will probably vote if wagon forms

@ Alch

- basically you have IceGuy as a Town-lean, yet he has been the one focusing on the ordering, which is the thing you have me as a scum-lean for.

[Realeo]

@IceGuy

Help me a little bit with your DuckWorth. You said that DuckWorth vote is OMGUSy and therefore scummy...

I tr Commtown, his reads list is solid and I agree with it for the most part.

I also tr Realeo based on his posts in Page 8/9 about mafia analysis and his general tone when stating his philosophy on the game.

Chip's vote in 171 is strange and has little basis to it, especially so as we are out of RVS now. Many of his votes are reactionary and trigger-happy at mild issues and therefore they give me a scumvibe.

I still dislike the amount of reads that grapes good so early in the game.

VOTE: ChipButty

But chronologically speaking, isn't the one who omgus is Chip Butty?

Duckworth is clearly just parrotting opinions already expressed by others on CK, Realeo, me, and grapes. In other words, he is trying to look like he is scumhunting without doing any real scumhunting. There was absolutely no original thought there whatsoever.

VOTE: Duckworth

[Realeo]

I am having a hard time taking CB's 374 seriously. 2 of the refutations are semantic based (even 1 semantic refutation is not even passable), 1 refutation is fallacy fallacy and 1 is kinda a misrepresentation (although DuckWorth does owe some explanation)

But it's grapes' vote that worries the most.

@DuckWorth

Do you buy UnaBoombah's "intentional fluffing" explanation?

@Grapes

Y ?

[Realeo]

I realize it's annoying how stickler I am for details but can you put into words why you didn't think alch and I was scum/scum.

I don't think my action at that time implies that I consider that it's impossible for scum/scum--for all it's worth it could be a bus--I simply find two sketchy things and the sketchier one deserves more attention.

[Luca Blight]

Realeo, can you also give a reads list when you're ready.

As I said, the more of us who do this the better. I'll do mine later when I have a bit more time.

[Realeo]

My readlist is pretty much IceGuys's readlist unless I say otherwise.

[UnaBombaH]

I'm a bit surprised after reading the last few pages for being scumread/-leaned by so many of you!
Time to try and churn out content now that I've closed some of my other games.. (and no more fluff )

Most of these are still "gutreads", but the ones in the extremes are more based on exact interactions.

Townread:

Alchemist

for his general posting and interactions, absolutely no scumvibes there for me.

Luca Blight

mainly for his IceGuy-interaction, albeit being on the aggressive side (would be easier to fake imo, but think it was genuine).
Some posts where I felt our thoughts are on similar tracks.

Townlean:

Mulch

mainly for his catch-up, have to admit I'm a bit weirded out with him not spamming whole pages alone, but maybe that is for the best?

Realeo

for his general tone: feels very relaxed yet confident. Haven't noticed any hesitance when commenting on anything! Feels genuine. "Defending" IceGuy based on meta is either confident Town, or very brave scum.

grapes/CommKnight

mainly on gut. Really liked grapes early walls when re-read, and CommKnights "compilation-post" and readslist.

Zero factors:

Assemblerotws, ironstove

(I'm not one to advocate lynching lurkers, but this one is just awful.. )

Scumlean:

Chip Butty/GameNBurger/Duckworth

mainly for gut-feels. They are all new players to me, and I'm currently thinking there's at least one scum here.
CommKnight townleaning GameNBurger based on meta sort of worries me.
Duckworth has posted very little, and is closest to being "relegated" just by that alone.
(this is currently the hardest bunch for me to sort)

Scum:

IceGuy

for reasons multiple. Don't like any of his posts, and even though I don't dislike him for voting me, I dislike the reasoning.

UnaBombaH at least posts but I don't like what I'm seeing.

Since there is a wagon on him by a player I consider towny, I'm going to vote him VOTE: UnaBombaH, and hereby express my intention to vote any of the other three if a wagon will form.

How? What?
So he votes for any of the lurkers, but votes for the one who posts..?
I know, he says he dislikes what I post too (and I don't blame him for that), but why bring up the inactivity at all then?
Just so that he can say that he is willing to vote all the other lurkers too? (= not willing to commit).

I haven't changed my vote from UnaBombaH and I currently do not intend doing so (especially with his first "content" post, which is basically OMGUS). I still hope the UnaBombaH wagon goes through.

However, if the UnaBombaH wagon falls apart and there's a wagon on any of the other three (and they do not start being towny posters), I will immediately switch. I would also switch back if there's a UnaBombaH wagon after all and he doesn't suddenly start to become town.

This is one of the worst posts I have seen.. Well, I bet he will go in depth on his read on me when he makes his next list!

UnaBombaH - I believe I have already talked about this. Scum, currently voting

.............

I want to hear actual cases if anyone can seriously defend IceGuy at this point.
I know Realeo made some thought-provoking arguments about IceGuys meta, but I'm not willing to let that slide over everything.