Open 698: Stack the Deck (GAME OVER)

[UnaBombaH]

My readlist is pretty much IceGuys's readlist unless I say otherwise.

Please don't go down that route...

[Realeo]

I am ashamed that I just realize that I don't know IceGuy's fos reasoning for UnaBoombah.

My readlist is pretty much IceGuys's readlist unless I say otherwise.

Please don't go down that route...

It's just that I have covered a lot of player that I don't feel the need to re-state every single of them.

Obviously, I haven't talk about Mulch and ironstove, but I am at agreement with Ice Guy.

[Realeo]

UnaBombah, I just realized I don't know where you are coming from.

This is your read list previously:

Alchemist / Luca Blight
Mulch / Realeo / grapes / commknight
Assembrelowts / ironstove
CB / GNB/ DW
IG

but earlier ago....

I guess a really rough readslist (it's so early, although it is an open game) would be:

Mulch/Assemble/Grapes
Alch
Comm/ (maybe Chip?)
Iron/Duck/Una
Realeo/Luca
Game
Ice

I'm comfortable with this, maybe put me one slot higher in your next list?

I know that you said you're comfortable with this, so it's not exactly mirrors your read, but some of the difference is too starking that makes me think "Really, the difference is still small enough that you are comfortable?"

[*] Your reasoning of why IceGuy is scum came from post 247, but Mulch made this post 158. You already scumread IceGuy before IceGuy made that post. Surely, there is extra reasoning.
[*] CB and Duck is quite a strong townlean while your is a scum lean. I know it's just gut, but from my experience, if you have a gut read quite late, it's usually a product of prolonged weak scum read so I'm kinda skeptical that you're comfortable with Mulcy's read.

[Realeo]

I would be open to lynching IceGuy, Assembrelowts, UnaBoombah (and maybe CB?). I don't think Assembrelowts would gain any traction so UNVOTE:

I am not willing to vote yet. I think UnaBoombah and IceGuy still have questionable spots which can be filled if given the opportunity.

[Realeo]

1. Assemblerotws. <- You know how I feel about this spot
2. Realeo. <-
3. Chip Butty<- I have been considering should this is a play style issue. Still can't shake it off, sorry.
4. GameNBurger <- I JUST REALIZED I NEVER TALK ABOUT THIS. I literally skipped him. Sorry.

I don't really like this guy.

I'm on phone and really don't have time for a proper long response so IOU

But I'm short yes I ultimatley read you as town, I think your behavior is being perceived as low hanging fruit for scum to poke at. Pun intended.

At the moment your votes were on people criticizing you, which I could see as plausible votes given how fast some people pushed you but at the moment you reeked of previous players I've played with before, but I'd like to apologize since after diving into your meta I get the sense of a completely different person than what I've been perceiving this game. Which is disconcerting in a completely different way, but ultimately I couldn't find a game where you were pushed so hard at the beginning in your meta anyways. Really when I start directly engaging with you in the posts (yes the irony of the conclusions of the first post is not lost on me) is when I started to buy you were more of a town lean.

[SNIP]

I don't buy that you don't have time for long explanation but have time for meta dive.

If Una and IceGuy become townier at last second, I can flash wagon him.

5. ironstove <- Vig this. Thx
6. IceGuy <- I kinda town lean this guy, until UnaBombaH reminded me of his fos at him is not justified
7. Luca Blight <- I need more sample than his read @IceGuy. However, unlike Allomancer, I would be generous and give him town lean
8. Duckworth <- I don't necessarily think his vote at CB is a bad vote. There are some questions to answer (for instance, why CB's attempt to recoup it is not enough?)
9. Mulch SmoothBlue <- Sorry. No clues.
10. Alchemist21 <- I am a little bit surprised how he did not question about IceGuy's fos at UnaBombah as well. I think his vote for UnaBombah makes senses.
11. grapes / <- I am comfy with this guy
12. CommKnight <- You know how I feel this spot
13. UnaBombaH <- You know how I feel this spot.

[IceGuy]

and I simply can't read Mulch

Why?

You don't produce a lot of content, which makes reading you hard, but you produce enough content to not be a powerlurker. Your short, mostly reactive posts do add to the game, but do not allow me to form reads on you.

@IceGuy

Help me a little bit with your DuckWorth. You said that DuckWorth vote is OMGUSy and therefore scummy...

You're right; I got this mixed up. That makes him slightly townier, but not by a lot (his playstyle is still lazy and falls into the "useless town/leaning scum" category).

My readlist is pretty much IceGuys's readlist unless I say otherwise.

I would be open to lynching IceGuy, Assembrelowts, UnaBoombah (and maybe CB?). I don't think Assembrelowts would gain any traction so UNVOTE:

So you agree with my reads, but would lynch me? I do not see how this makes sense.

Re UnaBombaH:

I'm comfortable with this, maybe put me one slot higher in your next list?

Begging for town reads is not towny behavior, being useful to town and getting read as town is.

His first reads in #269 are lazy: he townreads a player pretty much everybody townreads, calls me scum for voting him (after two other people have also called me scum), and has a "slight townlean" on the guy that started the wagon on me. There's not a single original thought in that post except for "I was doing it ON PURPOSE!" which isn't really believable.

He then continues to post fluff until two hours ago, where he posts a read list. However, those reads are mostly useless. The three reads from before carry over, except that Chip Butty is now town instead of a "slight townlean", but the justification is the same. Five players are read "mainly on gut", two players are neutral as lurkers (which I understand, they really lurk). The Mulch read is useless fluff ("for the catch-up", yeah we know he caught up, but WHY?) and the Realeo read is the only useful read, except many have said essentially the same thing.

The read on me is based on posts from way back and basically parrots Luca a few days ago. Considering I'm his only scum read, I'd think he post something about my reads or the "first place on the townie list" thing, but he doesn't.

tl;dr: There is not a single original thought in any of his posts, but he keeps up appearances of contributing.

[Chip Butty]

Okay, will try to devote a little more time to this game now. I think what I'm going to do here is just read over and over and try to be receptive to gut feel, rather than picking at detail, as many people are doing that already.

So...

UnabombaH is a popular topic of discussion. This is a guy who likes to joke around a bit, so don't take everything he says too seriously. But it is true what is being said: there's a lot of fluff and not much else early on. I dont think it is bad that he defends himself against the fluff accusation. That's pretty much how things go, accusation followed by defence. I can understand where he is coming from because i consciously post fluff too. After all, this is supposed to be fun.

If pressed right now i would say lean scum, but bearing in mind he might be someone who looks scummy even when they're not. Wouldn't hold it against people who wagoned him. My own top scumpick is still Duckworth though.

[Chip Butty]

Iceguy: the thing between him and Una comes off slightly weird to me. Almost a scum theatre vibe. I'll come back to him and comment on his reads...

[Chip Butty]

The lurker pool:

Ironstove
Duckworth
Assembler
BNG

Lynching lurkers d1 has the disadvantage of not providing much association data. I get scumvibes from Duck but I'll prob end up joining another wagon eventually. Generally though I'd rather leave these guys at least until tomorrow, in the hope they'll start posting more.

[Chip Butty]

I'll post more detail on ironstove BNG and Assembler at a later point, when there is more to go on...

[Chip Butty]

Alch: someone i think said they thought Alch had carefully constructed his openung to gain town cred. I had the same feeling. I think he might be quite adept at appearing town, but whether or not he is pretending in this game i don't know yet.

[Chip Butty]

If I ever do roll scum in a game with you I'll have to make sure to pay you back for Micro 725.

Hehe, good luck with that You're going need a long con plan to get me back for that one. Also the last run of this set-up I actually called out the entire scum team rather early but other townies either did something that caught my eye more or I second guessed myself in the reads. So this time around, when I start pegging people, they're going to be ran up the damn wall fully this time. No backing off hard reads this run.

Also this time around if I were mafia, I could just nightkill people rather than pull a "Hey, we got them cornered guys, so they had to put 3 townies up on the block" Hehehe, that was a risky move on my part, but so worth it.

Anyway, I gotta prepare for class. This time around I won't be as talkative as before (maybe) because of classes ongoing. But I feel bad for scum this game, I notice a lot of new faces to this duo. If Alchemist is town this game, you fucked mafia, you completely fucked.

Has anyone pointed out the last para is so LAMIST? I think someone pointed out that the Alch quote here is also LAMIST. Slightly unpleasant wannaber hard guy vibe but that's NAI of course. I'd have to meta-dive to see if this his usual town playstyle but don't have time. Leaning green for now i guess.

After some early doubts I'm seeing Realio as probtown. He's kinda cocky, makes me think he is a know-it-all student type. Has a tendency to waffle but i think his heart is in the right place here. Lean green.

Luca: prob my strongest pick for town right now.

Mulch: uncharacteristically quiet...

[Chip Butty]

I.o.u. will try to get back and flesh this out a bit in the not-too-distant future i hope. Sorry if i missed anyone.

[Chip Butty]

Oh grapes of course. Leaning green here...more later, sorry

[Realeo]

So you agree with my reads, but would lynch me? I do not see how this makes sense.

I have said "unless otherwise" and I explained that the only thing I haven't "unless otherwise" was Mulch and ironstove.

[Realeo]

Let us dissect this one by one.

Re UnaBombaH:

L

I'm comfortable with this, maybe put me one slot higher in your next list?

Begging for town reads is not towny behavior, being useful to town and getting read as town is.

I'm pretty sure this is NAI. I mean, I think the smile gives away that he is saying that as a joke?

His first reads in #269 are lazy: he townreads a player pretty much everybody townreads, calls me scum for voting him (after two other people have also called me scum), and has a "slight townlean" on the guy that started the wagon on me. There's not a single original thought in that post except for "I was doing it ON PURPOSE!" which isn't really believable.He then continues to post fluff until two hours ago, where he posts a read list. However, those reads are mostly useless. The three reads from before carry over, except that Chip Butty is now town instead of a "slight townlean", but the justification is the same. Five players are read "mainly on gut", two players are neutral as lurkers (which I understand, they really lurk). The Mulch read is useless fluff ("for the catch-up", yeah we know he caught up, but WHY?) and the Realeo read is the only useful read, except many have said essentially the same thing.

The read on me is based on posts from way back and basically parrots Luca a few days ago. Considering I'm his only scum read, I'd think he post something about my reads or the "first place on the townie list" thing, but he doesn't.

tl;dr: There is not a single original thought in any of his posts, but he keeps up appearances of contributing.

Ugh. I think the single original concern is a valid one, but I am having a hard time trying to proof it's "paniking scum" instead of "great town thinks alike". I do agree that Mulch may use extra elaboration

@Una

[Realeo]

The thing is: I suck at early game reading because I don't "understand" tone.
I mainly read interactions, and this game had very few good ones in the first 5 pages or so.
I already admitted as much: they all felt very weird and instead of AI reads, I felt like some of it almost gave better indications on IQs..

@UnaBombaH

When someone have a play style change, something happen that motivates the play style change. What happened?

[UnaBombaH]

I'm seriously starting to get frustrated with the amount I am misread or misunderstood, and that doesn't happen very often.

I am ashamed that I just realize that I don't know IceGuy's fos reasoning for UnaBoombah.

Indeed, I don't know who does.

I know that you said you're comfortable with this, so it's not exactly mirrors your read, but some of the difference is too starking that makes me think "Really, the difference is still small enough that you are comfortable?"

I was only referencing my own position on the list.
I feel very comfortable in the middle: the top townreads get NK'd, while the bottomreads get lynched.
My comment was with a light-hearted tone of "I'm happy being in the middle, but you cant notch me one step up".
Notice the exact phrasing I used: "maybe put me one slot higher in your next list? "
Simple as that.

I am not willing to vote yet. I think UnaBoombah and IceGuy still have questionable spots which can be filled if given the opportunity.

I don't think anyone can fill IceGuys questionable spots, but please make me fill mine.
Ask away.

Re UnaBombaH:

I'm comfortable with this, maybe put me one slot higher in your next list?

Begging for town reads is not towny behavior, being useful to town and getting read as town is.

Please, read above. This post has been misunderstood and overanalyzed way too much.

His first reads in #269 are lazy: he townreads a player pretty much everybody townreads, calls me scum for voting him (after two other people have also called me scum), and has a "slight townlean" on the guy that started the wagon on me. There's not a single original thought in that post except for "I was doing it ON PURPOSE!" which isn't really believable.

No, you are not getting away with this bullshit.
You do not even read what I write about you if you say something like this.
I. DO. NOT. THINK. YOU. ARE. SCUM. FOR. VOTING. ME.
I think you are scum because of the "reasoning", or better yet, the lack of it.

He then continues to post fluff until two hours ago, where he posts a read list. However, those reads are mostly useless.

And you are the leading expert on the usefulness of them, eh?

The three reads from before carry over, except that Chip Butty is now town instead of a "slight townlean", but the justification is the same. Five players are read "mainly on gut", two players are neutral as lurkers (which I understand, they really lurk). The Mulch read is useless fluff ("for the catch-up", yeah we know he caught up, but WHY?) and the Realeo read is the only useful read, except many have said essentially the same thing.

"Three reads carry over" - go figure. I read someone as such and such...and I'm being consistent?!?
"five players are read on gut" - worse than your "better lynch lurkers, so that I get more time fabricating reads"? I need time to solidify those reads, sure, but my gut has been right before.
"Mulch for the catch-up" - you think it meant literally "for catching up"? It means that I liked his catch-up post. You know, the one where he had the spoiler titled "the catch up" or something like that..?
"many have said the same about Realeo" - Who? Where? If someone used the same exact words or reasonings, then good on them, because I think that is some smart reading.

The read on me is based on posts from way back and basically parrots Luca a few days ago. Considering I'm his only scum read, I'd think he post something about my reads or the "first place on the townie list" thing, but he doesn't.

tl;dr: There is not a single original thought in any of his posts, but he keeps up appearances of contributing.

You find arguments against me from what everyone else posts, and then claim that I DO NOT HAVE ORIGINAL THOUGHTS?
...I could actually get mad at this, if anyone I townread or appreciate would say this.

UnabombaH is a popular topic of discussion. This is a guy who likes to joke around a bit, so don't take everything he says too seriously. But it is true what is being said: there's a lot of fluff and not much else early on. I dont think it is bad that he defends himself against the fluff accusation. That's pretty much how things go, accusation followed by defence. I can understand where he is coming from because i consciously post fluff too. After all, this is supposed to be fun.

This isn't 100% true either: I like to joke for the sake of joking, but I also like to post fluff early while not committing, to see who attacks me for it.
I've seen many scumplayers who try too hard to scumread people without actual content (like IceGuy), while towny people who are ACTUALLY scumhunting take notice on "fake-presence".
Like in this particular game you can go and read IceGuys progression on me: he starts with a vote for "no content" and then when I make my first post he calls it OMGUS (which it wasn't), followed by him realizing that he can use everybody elses reads/opinions on me, and push that.
Voila!
A scumplayer, who now doesn't have to look for another fake-scumread, because he got fuel for my case from others.

[UnaBombaH]

@UnaBombaH When someone have a play style change, something happen that motivates the play style change. What happened?

I'm very good at face-to-face Mafia.
I only joined this site this summer, and I have since won two games and lost six. (although, the six losses have all been replacements in, I think.. )
I tried to figure what I'm doing wrong/correct before this game started, and I also realized that this game has only two(?) players I have played with previously, so I thought now is a good time to test things out.

On this site, my playstyle has always been about provoking others to commit/disengage and force interactions.
I like to fuel conversations, and pretend to be even more paranoid than I actually am (I mean I am, but not to the extent I seem to be)
Some players have therefore called me "mislynchable" or even "lynchbaity", but my gutreads have often been correct.
I base most of my reads on interactions between other players, less on singular posts, but I can do that too.
This is why D1 is always hard for me: the start is often slow, and people are trying NOT to seem scummy at all.
So I decided to go a different route with my newer games: I try to draw attention to myself early game without being outright scummy, and try to gather as much reads before N1 as possible.
Then depending on the NK, I believe I can have a very solid vision on who might be scum.

In the games where I join as replacement, I often get guiltied into changing my reads by more experienced players, because they devalue my logic or reads, but I have turned out to be correct multiple times now (even if I have failed in presenting the case).
So now I have also decided to stick to my reads if I'm feeling confident on them, and then just face the consequences if I miss.
I feel confident in IceGuy being scum.

[UnaBombaH]

If I ever do roll scum in a game with you I'll have to make sure to pay you back for Micro 725.

Hehe, good luck with that You're going need a long con plan to get me back for that one. Also the last run of this set-up I actually called out the entire scum team rather early but other townies either did something that caught my eye more or I second guessed myself in the reads. So this time around, when I start pegging people, they're going to be ran up the damn wall fully this time. No backing off hard reads this run.

Also this time around if I were mafia, I could just nightkill people rather than pull a "Hey, we got them cornered guys, so they had to put 3 townies up on the block" Hehehe, that was a risky move on my part, but so worth it.

Anyway, I gotta prepare for class. This time around I won't be as talkative as before (maybe) because of classes ongoing. But I feel bad for scum this game, I notice a lot of new faces to this duo. If Alchemist is town this game, you fucked mafia, you completely fucked.

Has anyone pointed out the last para is so LAMIST? I think someone pointed out that the Alch quote here is also LAMIST.

Well, bleeding is too strong of a word. Town lean maybe.

Funnily enough, it didn't feel genuine to me.
Almost LAMIST.

You're only a little under 400 posts late..!

[Realeo]

On this site, my playstyle has always been about provoking others to commit/disengage and force interactions.
I like to fuel conversations, and pretend to be even more paranoid than I actually am (I mean I am, but not to the extent I seem to be)
Some players have therefore called me "mislynchable" or even "lynchbaity", but my gutreads have often been correct.

I only give this a skim and this seems to check out.

In the games where I join as replacement, I often get guiltied into changing my reads by more experienced players, because they devalue my logic or reads, but I have turned out to be correct multiple times now (even if I have failed in presenting the case).

Ah. Good time. I remember in my first Newbie game, I go head-to-head with a SE which is a confirmed-town in a MYLO with me choosing the right mafia. Did not back down, fortunately.

[Luca Blight]

@Mod

- Can we get a VC, and can you also edit it into the opening post so it's easy to follow. A countdown timer for the deadline would be useful too.

[Realeo]

I think UnaBombah haven't roll scum in this site, so maybe UnaBombah felt under pressure for first time rolling scum but just found the pefect alibi--but I am willing to give UnaBombaH the benefit of the doubt. Given that waffle is the only case against him (someone remind me if one), I don't see really any case against him.

Speaking of Iceguy, I can understand his logic of "Voting the one who talked the most out of the lurkers"--naturally, if you don't talk enough, you may deserve some credit of the benefit of the doubt and since Una talked, he get "less benefit of the doubt" which naturally puts him in worse position. Been there, done there. I think Iceguy is being consistent with disliking 161. I mean, IceGuy said that he didn't like what he see before voting him so it kinda make senses. But I can't really scratch off IceGuy of the list.

I am skipping UnaBombah. Inclining to vote Assembrelowts given IceGuy's consistency of disliking 161.

[Realeo]

Help me a little bit with fact checking but I'm not sure this is entirely correct or correct but I came with different interpretation.

Like in this particular game you can go and read IceGuys progression on me: he starts with a vote for "no content"

[Chip Butty]

@UnaH: Yeah, I did all that on my phone, which is a bit limiting. Probably should have gone back to check but it seemed like too much bother at the time. Now I'm on my laptop but i can't hang around.

I'm just going to do a tentative Rangerlist in lieu of full reads for now...

[Luca]
[Realeo, Alch]
[Ironstove, Assembler, GNB, CK, Mulch]
[IceGuy, UnaH]
[Duckworth]

Hope I got everyone!