Micro 745: Beyond Death [Endgame]

[Cabd]

I will say that given the setup; claims don't mean almost anything, in that the "doctor" role should probably be rolling a dice between their townreads including themselves to protect; if outed.


Everyone except the doc will claim VT regardless. If scum trades one for one it becomes a bit harder but it's still not a high-EV play imo.

[northsidegal]

what do you think about the pressure on you from kawso + hopkirk + cheeky, north?

i'm interested in cheeky's reasoning, kawso's vote seemed questionable and that slot hasn't contributed much and hopkirk might have misunderstood my point but still might be voting me anyways. i'll admit that it was poor play to vote micc like i did but i'm not sure the other reactions are warranted. of course, that could just be my failure to see things from other people's point of view.

I will say that given the setup; claims don't mean almost anything, in that the "doctor" role should probably be rolling a dice between their townreads including themselves to protect; if outed.


Everyone except the doc will claim VT regardless. If scum trades one for one it becomes a bit harder but it's still not a high-EV play imo.

is this responding to a speficic post?

[Cabd]

(it's not a response to a specific post, it's me thinking while at lunch at work)

[Cabd]

I realize the creator of this setup is here, but my itch to try and break setups will never truly go away.

[Sobolev Space]

so setup wise one of the things that i noticed is that even if the firefighter stops a priming it'll be impossible for them to know who they stopped unless scum ignites on n2. with this in mind do you think it would even be advisable for the firefighter to claim who they protected if a kill is blocked or no?

[Cabd]

No, firefighter IDEALLY should just be randomizing their saves between townreads and themselves; and then it gives a confirmed townie the day before lylo. Maybe? Let me sit down and math.

[northsidegal]

so setup wise one of the things that i noticed is that even if the firefighter stops a priming it'll be impossible for them to know who they stopped unless scum ignites on n2. with this in mind do you think it would even be advisable for the firefighter to claim who they protected if a kill is blocked or no?

even if scum ignites night two, the firefighter would still have no idea if they saved someone or not, because the night action would still be "nobody died" whether they primed or ignited night two, right?

[northsidegal]

i mean the night "flip" or information reveal when i say night action.

[CheekyTeeky]

I like this town

I'll respond to questions soon.

[Cabd]

I like this town

ORLY?

[CheekyTeeky]

I like this town

ORLY?

You don't? Everyone is active so far, I likey.

[Micc]

I realize the creator of this setup is here, but my itch to try and break setups will never truly go away.

sup. For what its worth I wrote the set up with no self protect, but according to the role pm's it is allowed in this game. That might affect possible breaking strategies. I'll have to think on it as well. I remember being pretty confident there were none in the original setup but I don't have or remember any of that analysis.

VOTE: northsidegal
you don't get to admit that you made a bad vote and then still leave it on all while ignoring the posts I made that showed how bad of a vote it was. Also, where's that meta analysis?
l-2

[Cabd]

That might affect possible breaking strategies

All that stands out to me with the self-protect is you can have an IC that makes it to "lylo" at the cost of never getting off a protect... which in the setup protects are unlikely to occur anyways.

[CheekyTeeky]

Why would you expect me to not answer if you removed the vote, and why are you treating the question of 'what do you think of x player (that you don't explicitly scumread)' as so significant?

Some players need a push to answer I've found. Also a vote can make a question feel more loaded to scum. I wanted to test a Hopkirk/micc possibility with the question. I don't know what to do with your response just yet. You were an initial scum lean.

[CheekyTeeky]

Given you've asked me for my thoughts on Micc when I hadn't mentioned him yet, (and given, though slightly less so, that you haven't really mentioned me outside there) I find it surprising you didn't mention why you're scumleaning on me. I'd like to hear your thoughts there.

Readlist incoming.

[CheekyTeeky]

UNVOTE: Hopkirk

VOTE: north

I'm afraid the random vote - reaction test - serious vote just seems scrambling almost

I think you may have unvoted scum, to vote scum.

what about me this game seems to you to show an anti-town motivation or a playstyle difference that would indicate i'm scum?

You were very awkward breaking out of RVS. Your RVS vote on micc was straight up bad, don't care if it was a reaction test. You presented a scum interpretation of my Cabd push, but denied you thought I was scummy. Being pro-town != not scum. You seem to be playing it safe, you tried to stick your neck out with me but quickly withdrew when you saw your points were defeated by logic. I'd have to assume that you hadn't read the entire thread before your push on me, for the illogical arguments to make sense. I don't believe that to be true as I've assumed an attentive, thoughtul player image of you.

I do want to vote you but I don't like how quickly your wagon is building up so I'll reassess shortly.

[Micc]

I remember coming to the conclusion that just being a named townie was as much if not more powerful than the actual protection ability. Named townie guarantees town either a confirmed player or a 1v1 counterclaim at some point in the game. Self protection does guarantee the protection role won't get nightkilled before claiming if they go that route. the quickest path to victory for scum isn't to ignite part way through the game tho so I don't think it's high impact that the protection role can guarantee it survives to "Lylo"

[Micc]

now i've got two trs and one of them isn't cabd

This seems to imply you got a town read on Hopkirk from post 38. Can you explain that one please?

yea i thought that his questions in 38 meshed a lot with what i was thinking when i read those posts which indicates a towny thought process. it wasn't a super strong read at the time but its been strengthened by his recent posts as well

ftr my other tr at the time was chip but when i entered the game the wagon on him was pretty much the only thing happening and i wanted to see what happened with it

has your opinion on chip butty changed as his wagon fell apart? the lack of traction for the wagon meant there was less pressure than I would have liked. I'm left feeling like I don't have a read on him because of it.

[northsidegal]

I realize the creator of this setup is here, but my itch to try and break setups will never truly go away.

sup. For what its worth I wrote the set up with no self protect, but according to the role pm's it is allowed in this game. That might affect possible breaking strategies. I'll have to think on it as well. I remember being pretty confident there were none in the original setup but I don't have or remember any of that analysis.

VOTE: northsidegal
you don't get to admit that you made a bad vote and then still leave it on all while ignoring the posts I made that showed how bad of a vote it was. Also, where's that meta analysis?
l-2

sorry, i wasn't clear again. me voting you initially wasn't entirely serious. my vote as it stands now is where i want it to be. let's look at the sum total of your contributions this game: you threw a little fit over someone's rvs vote and then you threw a little fit again over my vote on you. i hope i'm not making the mistake of letting how much i dislike you cloud my judgment, but i don't think i am.

as for the meta analysis, it's hard to display in quotes how natural you sound in one game as opposed to the other, but here's some awkward confrontations from your scum games:

(post 14 of the thread)

Why are you apologizing for being a bad player and being inherently scummy at this point? Are you scum trying to coast through the game by underscoring your skill so that less is expected of you?

Spoiler:

You strangely enough don't seem to group yourself with the town here.

How is it strange that I don't group myself with the town when you set up a hypothetical situation where is was scum with BM? Like really? Dont make me break out the all caps

Your language assumes a distance from town. That's what I'm saying. It has nothing to do with you being scum together with BM or not.

IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH ME BEING SCUM WITH BM. YOU SET UP THAT HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION AND I RESPONDED TO IT!

I'm closing mafia scum for the night. hopefully when I get back we will have a replacement or a mod or both. I see that you and Yiley made more posts. Im not reading them. Ill see you all tomorrow.

Eh micc I see it now nvm, I read wrongly.

You sound like scum caught for the wrong reasons <3

[northsidegal]

You were very awkward breaking out of RVS. Your RVS vote on micc was straight up bad, don't care if it was a reaction test. You presented a scum interpretation of my Cabd push, but denied you thought I was scummy. Being pro-town != not scum. You seem to be playing it safe, you tried to stick your neck out with me but quickly withdrew when you saw your points were defeated by logic. I'd have to assume that you hadn't read the entire thread before your push on me, for the illogical arguments to make sense. I don't believe that to be true as I've assumed an attentive, thoughtul player image of you.

I do want to vote you but I don't like how quickly your wagon is building up so I'll reassess shortly.

i think i need to change my playstyle because something similar to this happened in my first game. again, i didn't present a scum interpretation of your cabd push. i thought i had made it clear that it doesn't make sense for scum to do what you did but it was strange nonetheless, which is why i pointed it out. in the future i don't think i'll bother making posts like that, it's obviously not productive. second, were my arguments really "defeated by logic"? you fully admitted yourself that i was right!

Ok so it feels forced

, but breaking out of RVS requires discussion (not just complaining about it eh Micc), I bring up thoughts and opinions to stimulate such and make reads based on the points.

Sometimes the points are useless or feel forced

because I have almost nothing to work wot to try and make something. I don't believe my itention looked like a way to create a Cabd wagon, particularly when I announced the intention to move my vote after some back and forth. And also after the discussion with sobo where I said I use my vote to get info rather than as an accusation at this stage... so I don't know why everyone is getting so precious about Cabd?

you admitted that i was right about your points being forced! i "withdrew" because there was really nothing left to press you on further, you had admitted that i was right!

[Sobolev Space]

psa: talking about ongoing games is forbidden even if you're already dead in them

[Sobolev Space]

has your opinion on chip butty changed as his wagon fell apart? the lack of traction for the wagon meant there was less pressure than I would have liked. I'm left feeling like I don't have a read on him because of it.

eh he's still a tr. i thought his response to his wagon in 56 was fairly towny. it was a lot like how i reacted to being wagoned early in my first newbie game although given his join date i'm a little less inclined to tr it than i would if he was a newbie.

i wish he would contribute more but i'm most interested in hearing btd's thoughts rn

[Cabd]

psa: talking about ongoing games is forbidden even if you're already dead in them

^trufax

[Micc]

sorry, i wasn't clear again. me voting you initially wasn't entirely serious. my vote as it stands now is where i want it to be. let's look at the sum total of your contributions this game: you threw a little fit over someone's rvs vote and then you threw a little fit again over my vote on you. i hope i'm not making the mistake of letting how much i dislike you cloud my judgment, but i don't think i am.

Well, I think ive refuted the points you made regarding the seriously serious vote and I think this post unfairly mis represents my contributions to the game thus far. Do me a favor and seriously think about my play and ask yourself what is likely to come from town/scum and why. If you decide that youre scum reading me solely because you don't like what I'm doing or how I'm doing it then back off. If you really think I'm scum bring the evidence to the table. Right now I'm trying to decide if I caught scum you pushing a bad case or if youre town that is confirmation biasing herself because she doesn't like my approach to the game.

it's hard to display in quotes how natural you sound in one game as opposed to the other

and thus why I think this argument doesn't hold water. Its pretty clear that you decided my posts look "awkward" and went into my previous games in order to find evidence that proves to yourself that its alignment indicative. As Cabd can attest to, it takes A Lot of time to make a legitimate meta argument. And if you're going out to find the evidence after you have your hypothesis then your doing it wrong.

has your opinion on chip butty changed as his wagon fell apart? the lack of traction for the wagon meant there was less pressure than I would have liked. I'm left feeling like I don't have a read on him because of it.

eh he's still a tr. i thought his response to his wagon in 56 was fairly towny. it was a lot like how i reacted to being wagoned early in my first newbie game although given his join date i'm a little less inclined to tr it than i would if he was a newbie.

i wish he would contribute more but i'm most interested in hearing btd's thoughts rn

could you expand on post 56 please? that's the post I picked out as pretty useless to make as town and questioned him further on. Is there a reason a newer player wouldn't have this type of reaction as scum? for me it doesn't seem like the kind of thing that needs to be said if he's town and as scum he would likely be using it to discourage the players on his wagon from staying on it any longer.

[Sobolev Space]

resignation to being lynched is more townie amongst newbies than not imo. especially trying to give advice for where to look for scum post-flip since scum doesn't really care what town does after they're lynched - they just want to stay alive - while town does.

for example in my last game we wagoned scum early d1 and they responded by being much colder than they were early game

Spoiler: quotes

You have misrepresented my conclusion and are continuing discussion of game mechanics after others have stated that's a bad idea. I find both of those approaches questionable at best.

You went from discussing mechanics yourself to saying that approach is questionable pretty quickly. What specifically changed your mind?

Sobolev and kittycap's exchange on page 2.

I gave a logical progression from point to point to conclusion, but you stripped out the qualifier in your recap. When I called you on the change you said you hadn't added anything to my conclusion, but in point of fact you subtracted from it. Why?

That is what I did here, but Green skipped my qualifiers and presented it as me making a black and white statement. I appear to being getting heat for what he said rather than what I actually wrote, which is super confusing to me.

meanwhile the newbie townie that we wagoned d1 seemed like they kinda gave up and resigned themselves to being lynched eventually and expressed similar frustration to chip as to the case on them:

Spoiler: quotes

If you guys are set on lynching me that's fine. if there's any questions anybody wants to ask before I'm hammered, feel free.

I was surprised to see him at the top of her town reads.

why not ask her about it? Does this affect your read on Sobolev? You said she was a top town read, why haven't you tried to reach out and get her to townread you?

It kind of affected my read, but overall I've seen her as town this whole game. I don't know exactly what you mean by reach out to her to change her mind. All I've done this game is post my honest thoughts and don't really see why my posts are "bad in iso." It seems the tone of the game has drastically changed on the last page which has been pretty confusing for me.

i didn't realize chip was as experienced as he was however, so the i'm not tring these as much as before