Mini Normal 1952: Dragon's Dance [OVER - PERFECT SCUM WIN]

[Tchill13]

whatever man. anyone can go back and check me in fact i'd appreciate if someone did.

[LicketyQuickety]

It was LQ who came apart at the seams from me merely suggesting I’d like to see a wagon on him. He exploded and threw a desperate attempt to paint me as scum just to try and get the pressure off of himself. How can you not see that? That raises a huge Red Flag for me on you. I wanted your opinion because you were my top TR but the fact that you’re clearly ignoring LQs reaction here has ruined that.

If LQs accusations towards me actually make sense to you or anyone else then maybe they can explain them. Because I still don’t get where any of it makes any sense at all.

Reaction to pressure is a basic fundamental part of game solving. And yes townies can react poorly at times to it. But when someone completely blows up or completely shuts down due to it that’s a giant red flag. And the fact that anyone is ignoring his huge over reaction is bad.

so LQ freaks out when havo mentions a wagon and votes havo, mumble then votes havo because havo was mentioned in the midst of the mumble push then mumble votes himself again, Tacos naked votes havo, acid votes havo with little to no explanation and now we have EP all of a sudden stating Havo reacted worse to pressure than mumble or LQ? Anybody see my issue with the havo wagon to be? im pretty curious as to what EP's case will be because LQ, Mumble and acid are all scum reads from my perspective in their own right that voted havo for either no reason or a horrible one.

Here's why this argument is flawed:

There was ALREADY a wagon on me at the time I went after Havo. tsq has had 2 Scum reads all game that he has been pushing hard: Boon and I. If I was going to "lash out" at anyone, it would be tsq instead of Havo. Reasons for this is that I originally disagreed with, or at least questioned tsq in their read on boon. So if I am Scum I already have ammunition to attack tsq for having a bad point on Boon. But as I stated, I said tsq made decent points, pointing out later that they were not good points, but decent points. There was every incentive by tsq's logic for me to "argue point by point" against him in his read on Boon and later on me. Like if I was going to flip out I would have done it against tsq. I would have brought up at the time that tsq threw accusations at me that I am not understood rather than waiting until I make an an actual case against Havo. I mean, why would I be attacking Havo specifically for the threat of a wagon when there was already a wagon pushed on me, which had votes - I was the biggest wagon at the time - because of tsq leading the charge on me. The fatal mistake that both Chill AND Havo make, is that they both view this flaw equally. No one else is pushing this angle except them. Now I am not saying there is a Scum link between them, but I am saying that its very very likely that at least one of them is Scum because they would not both be trying to exploit the same exact flaw in judgement that they are both making. Basically, the flaw is that they are both assuming the same thing about my play that is not even accurate. They both are assuming that I am a volatile player who flew off the handle because of something as minor as the threat of a wagon when A.) Havo was voting my biggest opposition at the time (tsq) and B.) That I have more cause to go after Havo than tsq because I am a hot head. Let me tell you, both of these things are blatantly untrue. First off, My arguments are always based on my logical interpretation of things, they are rarely if ever fueled by emotional arguments. Just because people don't understand how I get from point A to point B does NOT mean that I am a hot head. This is the lie that they are spewing and it just does not make sense. Think about this: I never once used an ad hom attack. The reason for this is that I am NOT a hot head. I might type with fervor, but its always based on logic instead of emotion.

"I'm posting too much so let me double-post about how I'm not going to post" lol

I got $5 that says he posts today. Lol.

I will accept a mail in check only.

[LicketyQuickety]

Reads list:

Town

EP
Uzi
Egg

Lean Town

thestatusquo
Lalendra
Mumble

Null

Tocos
Schadd
Acid
Boon

Lean Scum

Havo
Chill

[LicketyQuickety]

I hope everything works out for you Boon, that really sucks.

[Errantparabola]

Before I read any of the new posts I'm gonna address the first issue at hand. It's a long post so I'll highlight the main points.

First note that I think that when reading people we should look at things holistically because rarely is there one thing that makes someone 100% town or scumread.
I'll say there is usually one single specific reason at the crux of most fairly confident reads from me. But with less confident reads, most of the time it's me reading a bunch of things that tend towards one alignment (but can individually come from either) and Havo is one weaker read. Hope that makes sense.

I know it's unfair because

some of the stuff that LQ is saying is so blatantly illogical (and following that I would be contextually okay with an LQ lynch on D1 if we needed to push lynches through)

----

Addressing 597 by Havo.

I want to start by responding to how you describe LQ in 399.
"you went APESHIT!! At the mere mention of a WAgon on you."
Is that weird? Is that scummy enough to bring over again and again, getting agitated when people don't see it your way? Is that scummy enough to base an entire push on LQ over? No, it's really really not.

Town goes APESHIT!! all the time.

All the heckin time. Every single game there's that one town guy that blows up/gives up/gets angry, and that's not an exaggeration.

Regardless of whatever is said people who want to discredit my argument because "too scummy to be scum" is a bad argument? The fact remains that

scum's top goal in this game is to survive.

They don't want to draw attention to themselves on D1. I can count the people that can use emotion/blowing up to legitimate great effect as scum on one hand. Town blows up all the time. I strongly dislike that you're using this as the crux of your push on LQ.

And I find it situationally odd how you react to LQ's post.

In reality there really isn't that much pressure on you during the entire LQ/Havo battle.

LQ's wagon has consistently been higher than yours, along with Mumble. Maybe I'm misremembering this, but

you take LQ's case, which is transparently terrible and illogical from my point of view and pick it apart.

The way I see it, you tear it to shreds and don't know what to do when LQ stubbornly pushes onward. And rather than moving on, ignoring that light pressure, and effectively defusing by directing your attention elsewhere, like engaging your other scumreads? You start focusing the majority of your attention on LQ. Reiterating stuff over and over. I've been scum in that position and done the same thing because it's frustrating. That's why I think your actions potentially strongly align with scum here.

---

And because I'm tired of typing, I'll just extend most of what I just said to Mumble. Don't think he's playing like someone whose win condition is centered around surviving.

[Errantparabola]

And yes-- good luck boon. I'm also generally in the area, and I'm sure there are other people you can turn to, but if you need anything, feel free to ask. My thoughts go with you.

[Errantparabola]

I'll go a little further here (feel free to completely ignore this post unless you're one of the many people that hates "too scummy to be scum" arguments

The fact remains that sniffing out lynchbait from mafia is a valuable skill and that situations that call for being careful because someone might actually be "too scummy to be scum" like mumble exist fairly often.

It's fair to say that quite often D1 wagons go on someone who is lynchbaity, surface level scummy. Someone who isn't proactive, contributing, etc etc etc. It's also fair to say that statistically D1 wagons go to town. I think there are many cases where someone who does stupid/dumb/illogical/unnecessarily emotional/etc etc etc stuff is town and I think that there is a way to read it.

Alternatively-- we're all just blindly throwing darts at a dartboard and it's all just random chance for most of us and I'm not egotistical enough to think I'm one of the people who does better than random chance

jk, for the most part

[LicketyQuickety]

Before I read any of the new posts I'm gonna address the first issue at hand. It's a long post so I'll highlight the main points.

First note that I think that when reading people we should look at things holistically because rarely is there one thing that makes someone 100% town or scumread.
I'll say there is usually one single specific reason at the crux of most fairly confident reads from me. But with less confident reads, most of the time it's me reading a bunch of things that tend towards one alignment (but can individually come from either) and Havo is one weaker read. Hope that makes sense.

I know it's unfair because

some of the stuff that LQ is saying is so blatantly illogical (and following that I would be contextually okay with an LQ lynch on D1 if we needed to push lynches through)

----

Addressing 597 by Havo.

I want to start by responding to how you describe LQ in 399.
"you went APESHIT!! At the mere mention of a WAgon on you."
Is that weird? Is that scummy enough to bring over again and again, getting agitated when people don't see it your way? Is that scummy enough to base an entire push on LQ over? No, it's really really not.

Town goes APESHIT!! all the time.

All the heckin time. Every single game there's that one town guy that blows up/gives up/gets angry, and that's not an exaggeration.

Regardless of whatever is said people who want to discredit my argument because "too scummy to be scum" is a bad argument? The fact remains that

scum's top goal in this game is to survive.

They don't want to draw attention to themselves on D1. I can count the people that can use emotion/blowing up to legitimate great effect as scum on one hand. Town blows up all the time. I strongly dislike that you're using this as the crux of your push on LQ.

And I find it situationally odd how you react to LQ's post.

In reality there really isn't that much pressure on you during the entire LQ/Havo battle.

LQ's wagon has consistently been higher than yours, along with Mumble. Maybe I'm misremembering this, but

you take LQ's case, which is transparently terrible and illogical from my point of view and pick it apart.

The way I see it, you tear it to shreds and don't know what to do when LQ stubbornly pushes onward. And rather than moving on, ignoring that light pressure, and effectively defusing by directing your attention elsewhere, like engaging your other scumreads? You start focusing the majority of your attention on LQ. Reiterating stuff over and over. I've been scum in that position and done the same thing because it's frustrating. That's why I think your actions potentially strongly align with scum here.

---

And because I'm tired of typing, I'll just extend most of what I just said to Mumble. Don't think he's playing like someone whose win condition is centered around surviving.

Point out the things that are illogical that I am saying.

[Errantparabola]

I hope I'm not coming across as rude, but... I don't really want to spend the time noting, thinking about, or typing exactly where and how I disagree with you because I don't really think it matters.

But you're right if you felt like that post turned into an unnecessary amount of discrediting thrown your way and that wasn't my intention.
People are free to read your posts and make their own decisions about them. Doesn't really matter that much to me.

[LicketyQuickety]

I hope I'm not coming across as rude, but... I don't really want to spend the time noting, thinking about, or typing exactly where and how I disagree with you because I don't really think it matters.

But you're right if you felt like that post turned into an unnecessary amount of discrediting thrown your way and that wasn't my intention.
People are free to read your posts and make their own decisions about them. Doesn't really matter that much to me.

No, see, it does kind of matter because otherwise it can look like you are actually trying to ensure my lynch without actually having a Scum read on me.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

I wouldn’t say you lashed out LQ but you definitely reacted in a way that was not positive. The only thing close to justify your reaction in 359 is 34 and 163. I don’t see how being frustrated at putting an end to a reaction test before it even started or a slight scum lean based on your effort bring viewed as not realistic up until that point is someone disliking your play style.

You do pose a good question about why you would be attacking Havo for the threat of a wagon. It’s possible that you partners view Havo as a strong town player and you felt him suspecting you would be the straw that broke the camels back and get you lynched.

[LicketyQuickety]

I wouldn’t say you lashed out LQ but you definitely reacted in a way that was not positive. The only thing close to justify your reaction in 359 is 34 and 163. I don’t see how being frustrated at putting an end to a reaction test before it even started or a slight scum lean based on your effort bring viewed as not realistic up until that point is someone disliking your play style.

You do pose a good question about why you would be attacking Havo for the threat of a wagon. It’s possible that you partners view Havo as a strong town player and you felt him suspecting you would be the straw that broke the camels back and get you lynched.

I am going to attempt to not be so aggressive and such an asshole. Maybe that will change people thinking I am not making sense.

359 was in reference to 31. IIRC Havo hadn't really stated a strong Scum read on me until 350. I just didn't see any reasons for Havo Scum reading me at that point. It seemed to come out of nowhere. Given 31, I was wondering what their reason for suspecting me was because they hadn't stated one prior to that. Granted, I could have said it differently and not been such an asshole about it, but the point is the same.

[Thestatusquo]

Just wanted to note here I'm traveling this weekend. Will try to check in but my site presence will be spotty at best.

[Tchill13]

i think the "too scummy to be scum." argument kinda makes sense but then there's points i don't like. I personally prefer "who's trying to look towny instead of scum hunt." So scum wouldn't attract attention to themselves day 1. Good point. Scum's goal is to ultimately survive but you just admitted at least a little that LQ did act negatively to havo's mention of a wagon so i'm not really digging that point. As town is it not your job to pick apart a "terrible and transparent" case against you? while scum's goal is to ultimately survive... Town's goal is to lynch scum. That being said townies will not lay down and allow themselves to be lynched because that would lead to a towny lynch which is the OPPOSITE goal of town. Do townies give up and let their lynch go through? yeah i've seen it before and too many times. That's called anti town from where i sit. So emotional blow ups aren't the best to help town especially when they come from town EP just said there are scum that take advantage of this. Hasn't there been scum that also take advantage of the "I give up" attitude?

[Lalendra]

Right, that's kind of where I'm at on Mumble. Like I'm not 100% that he's scum, because most of his posting has been reactionary and defeatist, but I AM 100% on the fact that his play thus far has been anti-town, and I would want to PL him even if I didn't have a scumread on him.

[Lalendra]

Hoping that some of the people from the LQ wagon will switch their vote over to Mumble so we can get that lynch through (since, by his own admission, his survival "will only help scum") and then we can move on to lynching LQ tomorrow.

[Boonskiies]

Who’s still scum reading this slot after 20 something pages of me only having 2 early game Boon posts. I’m about to go on a Boon Tunnel, because Scum is caught red handed!!!

[Egg]

 think Havo is town now because he's voting me upon request.

You don't think scum would do that?

___________


Anyone wondering why lickety would OMGUS havo over shea as scum...simple. Which of the two is easier to win an argument with and which is an easier player to lynch? Did anyone say Shea? I didn't either.

_____________

Tchill, the "scum wouldn't attract attention" argument is one I've never liked. I don't think people who get wagoned are usually attracting negative attention intentionally. I don't see why town would do it any more than scum. Hell, I once advised a scum buddy to do it because we had a great fakeclaim lined up for him to coast to endgame with. But most people who do these things do it out of genuine frustration or from not understanding things. It's not normally an alignment tell to be run up early in a game. Even playstyles like taco tend to be styles they use as both alignments.

_____________

V/LA until Monday night

Depending on the pace of the game, you might see me post about 24 hours from now and I might make some time Sunday. But I'm working today and tomorrow 16 hours each, watching football Sunday then working over night, then sleeping most of Monday away. So mafia takes a back seat.

[Lalendra]

 think Havo is town now because he's voting me upon request.

So true, scum never bus when a buddy is irredeemably fucked. Much town, such wow

[Mumble]

You don't think scum would do that?

No need for them to at this point, especially since they know that I am town and can try and point to people on my wagon as scum. Though, I'll concede that if they were on the wagon, my requesting and self-voting would probably give them a good out.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: tchill

 think Havo is town now because he's voting me upon request.

So true, scum never bus when a buddy is irredeemably fucked. Much town, such wow

Condescend more. Or, ya know, don't and be a cool person like Egg.

You're dropping with your LQ lynch lineup, btw. If you are town, take into consideration my town flip and the night kill before guns blazing tomorrow.

[Tchill13]

whatever man. anyone can go back and check me in fact i'd appreciate if someone did.

[Boonskiies]

Who was pushing me as scum still? I’d like to OMGUS.

[Lalendra]

You're dropping with your LQ lynch lineup, btw. If you are town, take into consideration my town flip and the night kill before guns blazing tomorrow.

Obviously I'll take the results of your flip into consideration when voting tomorrow, but I'm not sure that you flipping town would give me any reason NOT to vote LQ, as the interaction between the two of you has been minimal iirc (ISOing now)

[LicketyQuickety]

You're dropping with your LQ lynch lineup, btw. If you are town, take into consideration my town flip and the night kill before guns blazing tomorrow.

Obviously I'll take the results of your flip into consideration when voting tomorrow, but I'm not sure that you flipping town would give me any reason NOT to vote LQ, as the interaction between the two of you has been minimal iirc (ISOing now)

I don't interact with people who screw around.

[LicketyQuickety]

You're dropping with your LQ lynch lineup, btw. If you are town, take into consideration my town flip and the night kill before guns blazing tomorrow.

Obviously I'll take the results of your flip into consideration when voting tomorrow, but I'm not sure that you flipping town would give me any reason NOT to vote LQ, as the interaction between the two of you has been minimal iirc (ISOing now)

I don't interact with people who screw around.

Other people I have not interacted with:

Taco
Schadd
Boon