Micro 745: Beyond Death [Endgame]

[Sobolev Space]

oh another question i was supposed to ask today but forgot

interested in seeing where this is going to go but unfortunately i have to log off for the night to finish this econ pset. hoping to see some answers/content from cabd when i get back tomorrow

final question:

Ok I'm here I only really wanted Sobolev to answer, so I'll proceed.

cheeky what were you hoping to glean from my answer? why just me?

I wanted to make sure you weren't his buddy or at least to get a grip on the relationship. The fact you couldn't see anything made sense and your tone was genuine curiosity rather than discrediting. It reinforced my town read.

why were you interested specifically in a me/cabd team? if you townread me wouldn't you think its more likely that cabd's partnered with someone else?

[northsidegal]

i think most people are scumreading me either directly because of my voting micc for his rudeness or because of the events surrounding thatm and i can see how would be reasonable. cheeky's explanation for her scumread on me in 140 didn't really make sense to me, though. i responded to most of the points in 144 but one thing i didn't add was breaking out of rvs. i can't really be the judge of whether or not i was awkward in rvs but it didn't feel that way to me, and if i was then nobody else mentioned it.

she also makes the point in 237 that i'm pointing out oddities but not really making a push. this is more reasonable i think - if you start from the premise that scum don't want to draw too much attention to themselves then someone doing what i'm doing would look scummy, but i think applying that idea to every time someone points something out without making a push is a bad idea. i would say more on this point but no game i've been in is finished yet.

[Sobolev Space]

what do you think about hopkirk's argument about your defense of cabd in 111? you earlier complained that hopkirk isn't making any cases and this is one of the few justifications i see for his read on you

[northsidegal]

i tried to respond to that in 113. it wasn't meant as a defense of cabd, it was me pointing out weird logic in a post that just happened to be attacking cabd. besides, we now know (at least, we're confident) cabd is the firefighter. even if you don't believe that my post wasn't really about cabd, i don't see a potential scum motivation for defending someone like that.

[Chip Butty]

CT, what did you make of Micc's 'overstatement'? Does it look like a plausibly genuine misreading to you?

what is this in reference to?

Micc's question at the bottom of 65

[Cabd]

For the record, I am reserving my real reads list until everyone else has posted theirs, i don't want "sheep the confotown's reads" being a thing.

[Hopkirk]

I can't figure out why Hopkirk used 236 in his line of questionning of micc. O_o

Because he didn't put you in the suspicious section, and I find you suspicious, so want to know why.

in case it wasn't clear, i don't cc.

I'm not happy with this response. I was talking primarily about Cabd, and you don't really mention him, then later say i'm probably misunderstanding. I don't know how you'd clear up the misunderstanding without adressing the core bit.

i'm having a hard time understanding what your point is supposed to be. my original post wasn't really about cabd, it was meant to focus more on cheeky. you say that i didn't mention who i was talking about, but the whole post was in response to cheeky.

I liked this, because it shows [NSG] is reading carefully, and i think scum would have let Micc's misreading slide through.

I don't agree with this. Scum are more likely to pick up on anything to build a case/cast shade with. I noticed micc's overstatement but gave that room to see where it would go. I thought NSG jumping in prematurely cut off the push as micc complained about earlier. The interaction feels like SvT, I'm just not 100% on which one is S yet although I'm leaning towards NSG.

i see your point now about cutting off a potential push, but at the time i was just trying to provide some clarification. do you think that interaction has anything to do with building a case or casting shade?

idk if i agree with this although i do want nsg to add more actual contet. like when scum is being hesitant its usually to make it look like they're scumhunting etc. without having to take strong stances ppl can tie them to but if we look at nsg's recent post:

i'll be honest and say that i don't really have any strong scumreads as of yet. it could be failure on my part to distinguish town from scum, it could be that scum are blending in well this game or it could be that scum are lurking through. of the three i think the last is most likely.

UNVOTE:

If it was intended to focus on Cheeky then I'd expect to see something at the end mentioning Cheeky, instead of a brief comment at the start. The focus of what you said was defending Cabd, whether that was your intent or not.

even if you don't have any strong scumreads do you have any townreads nsg?

oh yeah, that would be useful! obviously cabd, you and chip. as for things people could expand on, cheeky never responded to 144. it seems like cabd was cooking up some kind of breaking strategy so that would be interesting to hear, unless it's the kind of thing best left unsaid. it feels like hopkirk hasn't really done much except respond to things people have said to him or give small comments on things, so it would be nice to see something new from him, some kind of casebuilding perhaps.

I have time to do an ISO now.
I townread the same people.

[Hopkirk]

I'm trying to discourage votes that don't help us get out of RSV. RVS voting an empty slot is explicitly not helping the game leave RVS and I'd like to wagon you for doing it.

if you're saying that rvs voting an empty slot doesn't help leave rvs because it doesn't draw reactions the same way that rvsing a player who's in the game does, shouldn't your own reaction to that prove that wrong?

I liked this now since I missed it, and said/thought the same thing later in reaction to Micc.

i think if you want to get out of rvs so bad, this is the way to do it!

UNVOTE:
VOTE: chip l-2

This kind of conflicts with the previous post, given you imply it's not enough for

you ]/i] to go off of there.

Its purpose is to end as quickly as possible. Building cases seems like a much better way to find scum than cracking witty jokes.

its purpose is to end as quickly as possible but for it to end people have to have something to go off of! if someone voting an empty slot is enough for you to go off of to make the first serious vote then that's fine, but for most people i'd imagine they're still waiting for everyone's entrance. jumping straight out of rvs isn't always valuable - scum sometimes find it hard to naturally insert themselves into the thread, whereas if we get out of rvs too soon they can just lurk a bit before sheeping someone or going straight to reads.

Oh are we done. Okay. Let's talk about how micc just skipped over my entrence entirely?

You haven't really done anything interesting at this point so that's where I'm at.

So who of Cheekyteeky, Micc, and nothsidegal is most likely to be scum on your wagon?

although that's a valid question on its own i think he was talking more generally about the idea that he'd be lynched just for the placement of his rvs vote and how scum would have to be on that wagon if it went trhough. i don't think specifically he was calling any of those three scum.

I guess we will just have to wait and see what Chip says Chip meant instead of what northsidegal thinks Chip meant.

rude!! we're still sort of in rvs so i don't feel bad about this!
VOTE: micc

This is your first posts after the one i brought up earlier. Firstly, it doesn't fit with you saying the purpose of RVS is to get out of RVS, and it sounds like you're going for more RVS rather than going with what their was.

More importantly, I don't get why you didn't vote Cheeky, given your suspicion of their interaction with Cabd.

[Hopkirk]

i know cheeky's conclusion here was that it's null, but why even mention all this? this is what i mean when i say artificial.

I started off with the premise that Cabd not RVSing is NAI futher to BTD's town read of this point, that's why I felt the need to elaborate on a null point. I prefaced the whole post with "I disagree with BTD blah blah blah" and outlined my points on cabd in contrast to BTD. I think you're fishing for something that isn't there with my push on Cabd and that you're intentionally ignoring my strat spec post, where I indirectly point out why my first push is Cabd.

What is it that you think you know about my town playstyle in RVS, that you're not seeing here? I'd also like to make the point that I don't have enough meta for there to be consistency in my play yet, but that's my subjective opinion. I don't like that you've spent the time to make me your biggest announced scum lean, yet you don't vote me. Instead you place another RVS vote on someone...why?

which one is your strat spec post?

on the second point, two things. first, it was just that everything about the post i was quoting felt forced. it didn't feel like natural reasoning, it felt like you were inventing reasons to suspect cabd. next, you're not my biggest announced scum lean. like i said, i don't see any sort of anti-town motivation for what you did, it's just that the reasoning seems off. one could make the argument that scum would want to manufacture a wagon on someone they know to be town, but i think standard practice there would just be to further someone else's wagon with the knowledge that that person is town, so that point doesn't hold up.

The 'you're not my biggest scumread' doesn't match up with the explination that it was a post about him, not Cabd. I wouldn't find this very significant is you hadn't said you were voting Micc as RVS, and I can't see why you'd do that.

Secondly, you explicitly imply you have scumreads with the phrase that cheeky isn't your biggest scumlean.
If Micc/Cheeky are not these scumreads then it's very unclear who is, I don't know why you'd hide it based on your desire to move things on, and your vote makes no sense.
This is the most significant point on a reread.

pagetop!

micc, it was a mostly random vote but now it's a serious one. what do you think about that?

The only thing that's changed is Micc being a little more suspicious of you. Later explination seems fine though, so this isn't scummy.

This is an overly strong defense of Cabd given the lack of real pressure that I can see.

like i said in some other post, it wasn't really meant to be a defense of cabd so much as pointing out strange behavior. i don't know if it's just me, but it seems like people are acting very odd this game and i'm having a hard time interpreting it.

It doesn't read like that since you don't really mention who you're talking about, so it's going to get lost rather than developed if bringing them to light is your intent.
Also people don't seem 'very odd' moreso than usual at this stage to me.

i tried to make it clear that the whole post was in response to cheeky's one post. that's why i put the "whole post for reference" in a spoiler. if other people don't see it (the strange behavior) then it's possible it's just me.

The strange behaviour was previously described as game wide, not just one person.

[Hopkirk]

Conclusion: Buddying up to a lot of people, not really attacking/pressuring anyone. Some conflicts in terms of says/wants/does. Biggest points of consideration are the confusing voting on Micc, the unresolved issues i have with the cheeky/Cabd thing, and the other scumreads.
Read progression on Micc could would be townish if the first thing was resolved.

[Lycanfire]

VC 1.2

The light has left it.

Leading Wagon:
northsidegal (3) - Hopkirk, Kawso, CheekyTeeky

Kawso (1) - Sobolev Space

Not Voting: Cabd, BTD6_maker, Chip Butty, Micc, northsidegal

With 9 alive it will require 5 votes to achieve a lynch.

Day 1 will end in (expired on 2017-10-22 19:07:10)

Mod notes:
BTD6_maker is V/LA until October 16.
Kawso has been prodded.

[Sobolev Space]

Not Voting: Cabd, BTD6_maker, Chip Butty, Micc, northsidegal

[Sobolev Space]

For the record, I am reserving my real reads list until everyone else has posted theirs, i don't want "sheep the confotown's reads" being a thing.

sure

{SS, Cabd}
{NSG, Cheeky, Chip}
{BTD}
{Hopkirk, Micc}
{Kawso}

[northsidegal]

If it was intended to focus on Cheeky then I'd expect to see something at the end mentioning Cheeky, instead of a brief comment at the start. The focus of what you said was defending Cabd, whether that was your intent or not.

a brief comment? listen - the entire post was responding to cheeky! it was a direct response to one of her posts! i'm not sure what you want me to say. every single quote there was from the one post that cheeky made.

The 'you're not my biggest scumread' doesn't match up with the explination that it was a post about him, not Cabd. I wouldn't find this very significant is you hadn't said you were voting Micc as RVS, and I can't see why you'd do that.

Secondly, you explicitly imply you have scumreads with the phrase that cheeky isn't your biggest scumlean.
If Micc/Cheeky are not these scumreads then it's very unclear who is, I don't know why you'd hide it based on your desire to move things on, and your vote makes no sense.
This is the most significant point on a reread.

cheeky was the one to use the phrase "biggest announced scumlean", i was just echoing what she had said. any implications there came from her, not from me. furthermore, as i've said multiple times before, i was saying that i thought cheeky's behavior was strange, not that it was scummy. if this is the most significant point you have to make then the case on me as a whole looks pretty weak.

[CheekyTeeky]

cheeky never responded to 144.

I didn't see anything specific you wanted me to respond to, and understood that you were just providing your perspective. You said that I admitted that my case was forced, which I didn't. I said OK it seems forced to summarise your key point in the previous post. I then went on to explain why it could possibly seem forced to others looking in, during the breaking out of RVS stage. I think it would make sense for scum to point out strange things without really scumhunting. I don't see you scum hunting. I just see a 180 on your RVS stance of voting people to get reads to now just pointing out things that seem strange...but not scummy...and you can't even form an opinion on each player when everyone has provided content. How hard is it to rank players from scummy to least scummy? It's probably difficult for you because you're not actually scum hunting or coming up with helpful lines of enquiry against others. Pushes help town gather info. Providing a wishy washy opinion (x seems strange) of others scum hunting does not help us sort slots imo.

[CheekyTeeky]

why were you interested specifically in a me/cabd team? if you townread me wouldn't you think its more likely that cabd's partnered with someone else?

Your interactions around your push on me made me wonder about the nature of your relationship. I also wanted you because you seem the most logical/objective this far, so you'd be able to tell me if what I was seeing was warranted suspicion or not. The second question is disappointing. Surely you don't believe scum always act obviously scummy?

[CheekyTeeky]

Because he didn't put you in the suspicious section, and I find you suspicious, so want to know why.

But what does this have to do with the post you referenced? What am I missing here? In the post you referenced micc concedes that NSG might be town. He hasn't provided any lists? I find it suspicious that you chose this quote when a couple of quotes later he says he is still suspicious of NSG. It seems like you're choosing a quote that puts micc's suspicion of NSG in a better light and which has nothing to do with me...so you quote that then ask how micc feels about me.

Why are you suspicious of me? Don't make the weak mistake of saying I'm suspicious with nothing to back it up, while providing a null leaning case of NSG...

[Chip Butty]

For the record, I am reserving my real reads list until everyone else has posted theirs, i don't want "sheep the confotown's reads" being a thing.

[Cabd]
[SS, CT, NSG]
[Micc
[Hopkirk]
[]

*Not enough input: BTD6, Kawso

[CheekyTeeky]

Chippy, do you have any scum or town reads yet?

Pedit I'm a mind reader

[Chip Butty]

Micc's work rate has definitely dropped off after an initial burst of activity. Possibly cruising after having established some town cred.

Hopkirk on the other hand has picked up activity after initially being quiet, but while he raises a lot of points my overall impression is that they lack penetration.

I kind of like CT's recent observation that NSG's comments are not of the sharp scum hunting variety but i also sympathise with NSG because nobody is yet standing out as especially scummy.

I think kawso either has to join the game or be replaced. Don't really want to vote that slot until we get something from it.

[Sobolev Space]

why were you interested specifically in a me/cabd team? if you townread me wouldn't you think its more likely that cabd's partnered with someone else?

Your interactions around your push on me made me wonder about the nature of your relationship. I also wanted you because you seem the most logical/objective this far, so you'd be able to tell me if what I was seeing was warranted suspicion or not. The second question is disappointing. Surely you don't believe scum always act obviously scummy?

i included the second part to highlight that i wanted to know what special relationship you thought i had with cabd. like unless i was thought specific interactions were worth investigating a priori i'd be more interested in looking for partner relationships between my scumreads than my townreads was the argument i was making

[CheekyTeeky]

why were you interested specifically in a me/cabd team? if you townread me wouldn't you think its more likely that cabd's partnered with someone else?

Your interactions around your push on me made me wonder about the nature of your relationship. I also wanted you because you seem the most logical/objective this far, so you'd be able to tell me if what I was seeing was warranted suspicion or not. The second question is disappointing. Surely you don't believe scum always act obviously scummy?

i included the second part to highlight that i wanted to know what special relationship you thought i had with cabd. like unless i was thought specific interactions were worth investigating a priori i'd be more interested in looking for partner relationships between my scumreads than my townreads was the argument i was making

Are you expecting me to respond to this? It's not clear if you're asking me something here.

[Sobolev Space]

no i was just clarifying why i included that part

[CheekyTeeky]

no i was just clarifying why i included that part

Ok just making sure lol.

[Micc]

What are you thoughts on Cheeky?

She's not in my lynch pool right now. I guess that makes her a default town read.

Micc do you have some town games I could look at please?

Micc > Profile page > view their topics > take your pick. Any game thread that wasn't started by me is probably a game I played in. All but two if them I'll be town.
search.php?author_id=22688&sr=topics

I mean yeah NSG's approach to this game has been very weird; but can somebody explain why it's SCUM-weird?

yeah that's where I got hung up as well.

how do you feel about what I said in post 229? ive got a lynch pool of kawso, BTD6_maker and hopkirk and then chip butty and northsidegal are on the second tier.

micc can i convince you to vote for kawso. like i get he's been lurky but i just don't see at all how a townie comes back to the game, sees 4 new pages and just makes 107 with a garbage explanation for a vote. its like he's just searching for reasons to vote so he's at least doing something without actually engaging in the game

Im gunna reply to everything aimed at me in the thread and then go back and reread a bit. if I don't have inspiration in any other direction ill join you but it'd be like 99% a policy lynch because Im not even going to bother trying to get a read based on two posts.

For the record, I am reserving my real reads list until everyone else has posted theirs, i don't want "sheep the confotown's reads" being a thing.

I haven't had an opportunity to sit down and digest the last few pages yet so this is still where I'm at:

Spoiler:

ive got a lynch pool of kawso, BTD6_maker and hopkirk and then chip butty and northsidegal are on the second tier.

Micc's work rate has definitely dropped off...

I had a little chuckle. got stuck doing the work I actually get paid for 3 hours past the end of the shift last night. so yeah, it didn't feel like a drop off to me.