Micro 746: The Deco Murders - Game Over!

[Vijarada]

Oh god please no Gorny's now making long posts instead of short ones. Yeah, alright, let me deal with this really misguided attack on me and then I'll head on to other crap. I'd rather be playing nomic aaaaaaaaaaah.

I wasn't being absolutist, funny thing is I read Vijarada as possible town early on and thought she was trying to flush out scum with a Fong's Gambit play. Not the case anymore.

Alright, let me get this out of the way. FONG'S GAMBIT IS NOT A REAL TERM IT'S NOT A REAL THING IT'S A ONE SENTENCE WIKI PAGE MADE OVER 10 YEARS AGO OF A FUCKING INSTANT RELAY CHAT MEME. Don't actually do this (it would be referencing this ongoing game), but if you went down to Mafia Discussion and did a survey of "who has ever heard of Fong's Gambit" you would get 0, absolutely 0 yes votes. Seriously, I'm wondering if I could just take your vote off of me by editing "Vij is confirmed town" on to some obscure wiki page, because you believe everything you read apparently.

[quote="Gorny]She calls the votes on her bullshit 277 saying that we would be fools to lynch her. My vote on her at the time was based on a personal attack, but I have more reason to vote now than before, so I'll continue.

I scum read her for 280, and that scum read still stands, and has gotten even stronger after the start of today based on some things Vijarada has done, for example:[/quote]
Your read off of 280 is just fundamentally based on a misinterpretation. I was saying I appreciated your short posting. I didn't even notice the random doctor claim. I have pointed this out but because you are fundamentallly incapable of admitting you are wrong, you now fabricate the worst read I have ever seen. Read on, because this is really just terrible.

The whole line about scum not bussing D1 in tiny games like this is complete HORSESHIT. While they may not always bus, it does happen, has happened, and will happen. The fact that Vijarada went and said that sent her flying to the bottom of my scum list, past Godel and past anyone else who might be scummy.

You're right, scum will sometimes bus on day 1 of micros (although, they should pretty much never do so). I didn't say they never did (although I accidentally posted something saying that, but I didn't mean too). I said that IN THESE CIRCUMSTANCES, in which there was a chance of an NL and it was 2 hours from deadline, scum would never bus. I stand by that. They wouldn't. If I'm still around in two days, I'm willing to re-examine my position. I'm not set in stone. Having said that, do you really believe that scum would bus in this situation?

Taking that into account as a scummy as shit move, the though that Vijarada's self vote in RVS was not a gambit in any manner but more likely a scum move meant which would hopefully earn some town cred if people saw it as an attempt to flush out scum (me, Inferno, others). It worked, the arguments went back and forth and the smokescreen went up.

Dude, I literally self-voted as a one-post meme that I expected to get us out of RVS and have little future relevance. If I knew the hullaballoo that would be raise over it, I would never have done it. You're right. I didn't self-vote.

Also noting that Vijarada pushed a Raya lynch wagon for Raya "asking a lot of questions" Granted scum can do that but if Raya is town ad some think, its a perfect cover and alternative wagon to get started on a town player.

Yes, I had a read that in retrospect, I believe is wrong. It turns out that some people have wrong reads. Like you. Right now. If you want to attack my read off of being a scummy pretext, attack that it's a pretext, don't just attack it for being wrong (or at least, wrong if the game is AS SOME THINK). I can't believe you said "if Raya is town AS SOME THINK". I mean, come on. Grow a pair and say that she is.

Also of note is that Vijarada "doesn't know how to read N_M" 248, how does she not know how to read N_M when in 131 she had N_M as null by way of saying "everyone else is null, SNOOZE" - How does one go from Null to not being able to be read? There's no explanation there whatsoever.

I said I don't know how to read N_M, so I didn't know if he was town or scum. I said OVER ONE HUNDRED POSTS EARLIER that I didn't know if N_M was town or scum. There's no inconsistency there IN ANY WAY. This is the single worst example of a reach that I have ever seen. And inferno's in this game.

All in all, I think the major scum slip was Vijarada's line about Scum don't bus D1..., the rest just builds on that scum slip or makes it more apparent, im confident in my thought that the last scum is Vijarada

The "scum slip" was a piece of garbage (don't believe me? Sunlit said the same thing as I did TWO POSTS BEFORE YOUR POST and you had nothing to say about it). The rest is the most blatant conf-bias I have ever seen in my entire life. Please re-evaluate your perspective in this game.

[Vijarada]

I'm calling vijarada's story BS because I think scum most certainly bussed.

You think I'm scum because I said the wrong thing scum didn't bus, and that's wrong because I bussed and I'm scum.

Can you see the circular reasoning here?

[Vijarada]

whoops that was a pre-emptive post. What I meant to say was

"So.. scum don't bus on day 1 of tiny games like this one. They especially don't put the final votes on players when it's an hour from deadline and they could just keep their partner alive by pretending to not be on. Yeah, N_M was obv getting lynched D2 but I'm still completely happy to pretty much put Raya and Sunlit Diamond (and myself) on the townpile, at least for today. Inferno is also town, and that's honestly beyond debate. So that leaves three players, Gorny, Godel and...uh... who again...TywinL. I will evaluate those three but trust me: any lynch outside those three people is blatantly incorrect today"

VOTE: Gorny for now, because I scumread him yesterday and yesterday!me was probably pretty smart.

This is bad logic.

It isn't though. At all. Look, right, there's a thing called WIFOM, yeah (I know you know Tywin, but I don't trust some of these others)? And so when you call say voting for the lynch 2 hours from deadline, people cry "WIFOM, WIFOM, maybe scum did it to get townread day 2". But that's bullshit because doing that is BLATANTLY AGAINST SCUM WIN CONDITION. It's not WIFOM at all, it's just looking at what the scum win condition is. Usually, they play to it.

[Vijarada]

Vijarada's story smells of BS.

Anyway, I was reading Mastinas VCA Guide last night. I think I'll apply it to day 1 here and see what I find. I'm inviting others to do the same.

Hey, I'd like to invoke a pro-tip. Take a gif

My pro tip is this: if you don't know what an extremely complicated, controversial and often misused technique is before reading one MD article about on day 2 of a mafia game, don't apply it in that mafia game.

[Vijarada]

Also to clarify on my response to Gödel's last post. I'm going to go over the vote counts on N_M again using Mastinas VCA guide. I want to see if my analysis from what I posted holds, and if anything new comes to mind.

One of the points of her VCA Guide points out that if it was a scum lynch, then look for scum on the wagon and not off the wagon.

I'm going to see tares any reason why the people on N_M's wagon could possibly be scum rather than those who were not on the wagon.

Expect that post late tonight. 12 + hours from now.

You do realize that Mastina is also the author of a well-known post called "Stop Bussing", right? Just wanted to inform you.

[Vijarada]

I'd like to point out that any defense of N_M was non-existent and no effective effort was made to stop his lynch once the wagon began.

For this reason I had briefly considered Godel as a partner, but unless he hardbussed N_M for no reason, he's off the docket. It might be Vij, and she's just awful scum, but that seems even less likely.

In fact, the ONLY thing that could be seen as a counter came from Tywin- and he did that by abruptly shifting from townreading me to scumreading me (Which also occurred after I indicated my lynch choices were either N_M or him), and has subsequently tried his hardest to diminish the effort I'm putting into the game by picking at words.

Occam's Razor indicates that I should VOTE: TywinL

I encourage others to vote with me please.

PS: I also have problems, on a reread, with the manner in which he engaged with Inferno. I'm going to try to put that into words this evening.

I don't think Gorny's scum right now, and think this vote is a good one. So I will join it

VOTE: Vijarada

[Vijarada]

fuck sorry that was a freudian slip. or uh... fong's gambit. w/e floats your boat. I meant to

VOTE: TywinL

[Gorny]

Vij I think you're just flailing and smokescreening. By all means keep it up.

[TywinL]

Wow I come back and I'm at L-1...

[Gorny]

Not going to hammer.

[TywinL]

I'd like to point out that any defense of N_M was non-existent and no effective effort was made to stop his lynch once the wagon began.

For this reason I had briefly considered Godel as a partner, but unless he hardbussed N_M for no reason, he's off the docket. It might be Vij, and she's just awful scum, but that seems even less likely.

In fact, the ONLY thing that could be seen as a counter came from Tywin- and he did that by abruptly shifting from townreading me to scumreading me (Which also occurred after I indicated my lynch choices were either N_M or him), and has subsequently tried his hardest to diminish the effort I'm putting into the game by picking at words.

Occam's Razor indicates that I should VOTE: TywinL

I encourage others to vote with me please.

PS: I also have problems, on a reread, with the manner in which he engaged with Inferno. I'm going to try to put that into words this evening.

Um hold up. I never townread you, where did I say that? I had you as a null for most of Day 1 because I wasn't too sure about you. I started disliking you when YOU were the one suddenly scumreading me and I wanted to sort you out. Your blatant whiteknighting seemed calculated and I wanted to call you out for that. Again, I was also scumreading N_M and I was going to vote for him if needed before deadline but he was already lynched.

[TywinL]

I think scum is either Sunlit or Vij and I'll tell you why.

[TywinL]

Sunlit and Vij are both coming in saying that scum wouldn't bus their scumpartner on Day 1. You know why they say this? Because it clears themselves and it's complete utter bullshit.

[TywinL]

Look at this game: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=73149

Raya was also in this one. Mulch (Mafia Goon) hardcore bussed the fuck out of me (Mafia Rolecop) on Day 1 and got a shit ton of towncred that brought Mulch all the way to Lylo and won the game for us. It's not a micro but my point still stands, and you get even more towncred bussing in Micros. SO...

whoops that was a pre-emptive post. What I meant to say was

"So.. scum don't bus on day 1 of tiny games like this one. They especially don't put the final votes on players when it's an hour from deadline and they could just keep their partner alive by pretending to not be on. Yeah, N_M was obv getting lynched D2 but I'm still completely happy to pretty much put Raya and Sunlit Diamond (and myself) on the townpile, at least for today. Inferno is also town, and that's honestly beyond debate. So that leaves three players, Gorny, Godel and...uh... who again...TywinL. I will evaluate those three but trust me: any lynch outside those three people is blatantly incorrect today"

VOTE: Gorny for now, because I scumread him yesterday and yesterday!me was probably pretty smart.

This is bad logic.

It isn't though. At all. Look, right, there's a thing called WIFOM, yeah (I know you know Tywin, but I don't trust some of these others)? And so when you call say voting for the lynch 2 hours from deadline, people cry "WIFOM, WIFOM, maybe scum did it to get townread day 2". But that's bullshit because doing that is BLATANTLY AGAINST SCUM WIN CONDITION. It's not WIFOM at all, it's just looking at what the scum win condition is. Usually, they play to it.

This point is bs because scum could easily just bus N_M and reap the towncred.

[TywinL]

And Vij moving to vote me instead of Gormy is just scummy and just shows she is trying to move the counter wagon to survive. So, it's either Sunlit or Vij.

[TywinL]

Also look at this game on Day 2: viewtopic.php?f=83&t=73497

It is Lylo and I'm town. The last scum was making analysis based off the night kill and using sound logic and I agreed with him. But the other townie was trying to defend himself by saying that anything could have happened and I ended up losing the game because I listened to scum telling me what happened. This is why I think it's either Sunlit or Vij because they both came in expecting to lynch Gormy because one of them thought town would be stupid enough to lynch Gormy over a cc.

[TywinL]

So if I have this correct, I have a noob town that doesn't know what he's doing and the two scummiest players voting me. Speaks volume.

[Gorny]

Inferno, I think TywinL is the wrong vote.

[Gödel]

Inferno, I think TywinL is the wrong vote.

Agree.

[Gödel]

fuck sorry that was a freudian slip. or uh... fong's gambit. w/e floats your boat. I meant to

VOTE: TywinL

How about you mention L-1 next time.

[Gödel]

Nobody hammer TywinL we have a lot of time left, quick hammers almost never help the town! I still have quite a lot left to say today, hopefully nothing comes in between it today like the last couple of days.

[Gödel]

This post will be a bit of a bad style sorry, just pretty much writing this as I am re reading the thread and commenting on anything i feel like commenting

572 -

Gorny -

I hope you saw my explanation
591 -

Infermo390 -

I am sorry but you will probably never convince me to vote for tywin, and I think the same is true for a lot of other players you have been tunneling him for too long
592 -

tywin -

sorry if I was a bit too harsh you can of course post whatever you want but if you don't think inferno is scum probably best to just ignore his attacks on you
596 -

sunlit -

Not sure if i replied to this but check my post with the gorny spoiler at the top took apart his argument
606 -

Vij -

okay considering that acid claimed because we had 3 people hinting at being a doc, i do think my characterization that he claimed to clear up the confusion is accurate, since clearing up the confusion leads to a lynch as you have pointed out, but the journey is also important not just the goal. Also while it may be standard mafia theory that a no lynch is worse than a mislynch I still wouldn't vote for someone i think is an awful lynch just to get a lynch its just stupid, sacrifice a townie to play by a standard mafia theory, you got to explain that to me.
607 -

Vij -

number of posts has noting to do with spam the quality of the posts are more important to me.
609 -

Vij -

Why? your next post also doesn't explain this.
616 -

inferno -

to me it seemed like you where trying to get a pro town power role to drop a hint, which would be stupid as hell since our doc just got lynched, a pro town power role shouldn't really out themselves unless they know someone who is mafia or are at L-1 and there is an intent to hammer.
619 -

gorny -

I am not sure a VCA will work with a day 1 scum lynch things may be a bit different(not sure if the guide mentions this specific scenario)
624 -

tywin-

cool I am not the only one
636 -

raya -

np
650 -

Vij-

"Having said that, do you really believe that scum would bus in this situation?" not that this is addressed to me but yes for the exact reason you stated since it would pretty much make me a lock town!
651 -

Vij-

maybe i am a cold hearted SOB , but when I am scum i don't care if i live or die, faction just needs to win.
653 -

Vij-

if you are the expert how about you do a VCA and show where gorny went wrong? remember newbie friendly game help the guy out if you think he is using it wrong instead of just saying don't try new things in a game that is here to help get newbies a hang of the game, which in essence means they should try new things.
653 -

Gorny -

I don't think any sane player would hammer here based on the play

I think I am safe in saying this since pretty much both arguments can be applied to be(depending on how you lay down the facts i can be seen as busing NM or backing off the bus), scum bus even on day #1.

Currntly I am trying to decided between a sunlit and vij for the lynch I am more leaning toward vij. raya hasn't really pinged me today like yesterday. the tywin vs inferno thing does look like tvt. gorny also seems towny. and that covers everyone.

going to look over Vij and sunlits iso today if I have time or tomorrow(got plenty of time tomorrow since I have time to kill till midnight when I am helping clean up after U16 disco, which I helped set up yesterday since someone who was supposed to help canceled last minute hence me running out of time)

[Gödel]

again sorry for the badish style in the post

[Inferno390]

Spoiler: me

Me (Never voted N_M)

Scenario 1: I'm scum and N_M is my partner. I soft claim DOC. I/we do not know if there is a real DOC present as this is a newbie friendly game. Seeing as it's newbie friendly, we consider the matrix6 setup and other newbie friendly setups. Any way we look at it, we cannot confirm or deny that there is a DOC. Me softing DOC could be viewed as an attempt to draw out the real DOC for either a lynch or an easy NK. However -

This scenario holds ONLY if N_M does not claim DOC also, N_M did

Scenario 2: I'm Scum. I soft DOC in an attempt to flush out the real DOC (again not knowing for sure if there is a DOC) and N_M Counter Claims.

This scenario fails because N_M flipped scum

Scenario 3: I'm Town. I soft a DOC in an attempt to bait the NK and keep the real DOC (if there is one< and by extension, any town PR) alive for the first night, giving them a chance to do what they do.

This scenario

might

have worked if Acid had not hard claimed. Scum would have not known he was the real DOC and would have possibly killed me because they may not have known anyone else was a PR (or seen anything worth taking as a crumb or tell.) This is what I was trying to have happen.

Scenario 4: I'm Vanilla Town claiming DOC, N_M claims Even Night DOC, Acid CC's. N_M Lynched.

This is the scenario that played out involving my DOC Gambit

While this is still fresh in my head:

Who first gave the idea that N_M was CCing GOrny? Because if it wasn't N_M himself, could it be possible that he claimed doc without realizing that Gorny had done it first? It'd definitely put a different light on Gorny's points to why he's not scum.

That would be me.

Okay, so here's my thoughts on this:
So Gorny's "scenario defense" holds up if (and only if)

N_M knows that Gorny claimed doc before he did.

It's completely possible that they could both be scumpartners that both ended up claiming doc simply because N_M missed Gorny's claim while he was skimming.
And before Gorny says that's dumb, here's a few reasons why I think that this is actually plausible:
1. Gorny's claim was buried, and I missed it while I was skimming. So why not N_M? He could have very well missed the post considering that it wasn't exactly the most clearly stated claim.
2. N_M was NOT the one that pointed out that he was CCing, Sunlit was. So did N_M even know he was actually CCing when he mad his doc claim?
3. The timing seems pretty off. Wouldn't you think that if N_M wanted to CC Gorny's claim, he would have done it soon after Gorny makes it? But N_M's claim comes quite a few pages after Gorny's. That doesn't seem like an intentional CC to me.

Now, I'm not saying that Gorny is actually scum, but I do think that this is a plausible scenario considering the actual doctor did die last night (meaning that either an unknown 3rd party happened to guess Acid correctly or Gorny knew that his doc claim was fake). So we can't rule Gorny completely out as a confirmed townie.

Considering that Ty is at L-1 and a quickynch would be bad at this point, UNVOTE: .

I'll be reworking my readist based on what has happened so far in day 2 shortly and give a new vote from there.

[Inferno390]

I feel like now would be a good time to claim:
I'm The Flying Pumpkin That Shoots Laser Beams Out of Its Ass. (And you thought this was a newbie-friendly game. )