Micro 745: Beyond Death [Endgame]

[CheekyTeeky]

Papa Zito made a lot of good points. I think he had a solid case.

Can you please quote his case and break down how it made sense to you?

[Micc]

Are we really going to sit here and debate the merits of a day one scum lynch?

[CheekyTeeky]

Micc you're doing the interfering thing again

[UC Voyager]

So yes, let's chat. We'll both become towner as we go along. And not to be rude or anything, but i feel you kind of owe it to SS to town it up a bit...

rofl I don't owe that guy anything and I sure as hell don't need to "town it up a bit"

Which hey look you've once again made a super vague statement. So here I am asking why you're tossing shade instead of either determining alignment or pushing a wagon. Can you plz solve this mysterious mystery.

My dude.

Once again you've dodged the question while throwing shade. I'll ask the question again: Why would scum Zito be more likely to act this way than town Zito.

Nopes again. You don't get to ask questions while blowing off questions from others. You haven't contributed anything except that naked vote on BTD. How am i supposed to townread you based on that?

So here's your problem my friend. You've casually insinuated a few times now that my actions are "scummy" without actually giving any backing to the claim. And I've given you ample opportunity to do so. Just to be clear, I'm not asking so you can convince

me

, I know what my alignment is! But if you actually well and truly believe that I'm doing vague and mysterious scummy things then your reaction should include things like:

1. Voting me
2. Asking others to vote me; pushing a wagon
3. Pressuring me into answering questions
4. Examining my iso and voting history in detail
5. Putting forth a case

My issue is that you've done none of these things. Instead what you've done is:

1. Throw shade at my slot
2. Complain about my behavior
3. Refuse to explain basically anything

I came in with a pretty strong scumread on your slot, so when you presented the opportunity to engage I took it and you've failed spectacularly. Nothing you've done in reaction to me has been townie. Instead you've tried to take advantage of my nonstandard behavior by throwing shade to erode the townpoints my predecessor gained without actually committing to it with a vote or writing down a stance I could debunk. Doing that would pin you down into a 1-on-1 that you're not sure you want because you don't know how good a player I am or how good my reads happen to be.

@Micc:

Are you done with BTD or do you still have things to hash out with that slot?

Rockin.

VOTE: Chip

not really agreeing here. chip actually

has

done some of the things you're describing! as for pressuring you to answer questions, what do you call 523 and 525? you say that he's not examining your iso in detail, but that's pretty much what he does in 521. you could make the argument that he didn't analyze it in detail, but i would say that there wasn't really a whole lot to analyze. it doesn't make a lot of sense for chip to just suddenly start voting you and pushing your wagon just because he believes you've been scummier than ss was - the townread on ss still exists.

I feel absolutely no pressure from Chip whatsoever. Complaining that he doesn't like what I'm doing (523/525)/ taking his ball and going home (526) forces nothing from me at all. You argued your own point on 521, well done.

The SS hedge is fun but either I'm scummy to him or I'm not. He's thrown enough shade to make it clear he thinks the latter so I think I'm perfectly justified asking why his actions aren't aligning with his words.

Here......this isn't a vague case...a little repetitive....but he has a solid case.

[northsidegal]

okay, i'm here. will start the chip iso shortly.

[UC Voyager]

okay, i'm here. will start the chip iso shortly.

Chip iso? He was lynched remember. You don't need to make a case on him


Or are you trying to find his interactions

[Cabd]

BTD, we approach the game completely differently, and even if we're both town here, would likely find each other's play to be poor.

Zito is a POE townblocker. So I am in most aspects. You're not, and that's okay, but the case made perfect sense to me.

[CheekyTeeky]

Saying words and criticising is not equal to a case. If you had actually paid attention to the interaction you'd know that all of zito's points weren't true. Chip was actually doing the things Zito said he should be doing as town.

You not seeing the hypocrisy makes me feel like you're not reading the game properly because you know people's alignments. Also you attacking BTD feels like a cheap push. Your hesitation to vote NSG makes me believe she could be town. One of you two are scum and it could very well be you.

VOTE: UCV

[UC Voyager]

BTD has been avoiding making strong reads, yes, but he is very conscious of that and keeps drawing attention to it, so he definitely not hoping it will go unnoticed. And he is actually right, there hasn't been anything to form a strong read on yet, so i am sympatico. His approach contrasts with the Micc/CT overstate-and-bluff approach to scumhunting, which also has its merits when used correctly. I'm not feeling BTD's CT vote though. I think he probably just a thoughtful, cautious player who will hopefully get stronger reads as the game progresses. If not then can lynch, but i won't be lynching him today.

I think I'll wait for substantial posts from UCV before actually voting. I'm inclined to look at BTD's wagon next. I've been mentioning Micc a fair bit lately, and Zito is ex-SS so probably okay for now, even though he seems to be intent on scumming up the slot. Time to revisit Hopkirk, methinks, esp since i still hold the view that he and Micc are unlikely both to be scum.

Hello friends I will commence with the reading.

onice

Aight I read the things. This game is surprisingly dense.

Cabd is a big fat liar and I wanna see my file. Where do I send my FOIA request.

VOTE: BTD6

Don't know what to make of this just yet. Need more from Papa.

More what.

Like you read things but what do you think about it all? Did you get any reads? Why are you voting BTD6_MAKER? What made him scummy to you?

yeah see this is a much better post than complaining

I do have reads yes and unlike Friend BTD6 I had no trouble getting strong reads.

I'm voting him for reasons I don't want to get into at this time.

Complaining? I said I need more...like more information to make a conclusion. I didn't say omg why is Zito not posting more game content. That's a pretty strong reaction to a pretty neutral statement. Prefacing your post like that makes withholding your read seem more scummy than I'd otherwise find it.

That's a strong reaction? ok

Good thing I'm not too terribly worried about what your read on me is I guess.

Shoulda kept reading.

so what are those strong reads zito? any townreads? who do you think is scummy? your predecessor (you replaced kawso, right?) thought i was scum, do you agree?

I do have townreads yes.

This is the total PZ output before i poked him. Vote on BTD with no stated reason, and repeated assurances thatvyes he has strong townreads and evidence for them, but nothing forthcoming. And he just blows off anyone who expresses suspicion of him, rather than actually engaging them. That's why i said he is scumming up the slot.

Oh, and I'd REALLY be interested in hearing why Micc is willing to sheep onto such a weak-ass vote on BTD.

Okay, I think we're rolling now, at long last.

Well, can you at least say why you don't want to give your reasons for your BTD vote?

I'm willing to hear you out but you're coming across to me as unnecessarily secretive and evasive. Unnecessarily if you're town, that is...

Nopes again. You don't get to ask questions while blowing off questions from others. You haven't contributed anything except that naked vote on BTD. How am i supposed to townread you based on that?

Lots of interesting stuff I found from Chip about BTD6. He defended BTD6 when there was a wagon on him. You would think that the scum would try to support a wagon...unless the wagon was their scum buddy.

[Cabd]

Welcome to yomi level one, folks.

[Micc]

^ i don't get it

[UC Voyager]

Saying words and criticising is not equal to a case. If you had actually paid attention to the interaction you'd know that all of zito's points weren't true. Chip was actually doing the things Zito said he should be doing as town.

You not seeing the hypocrisy makes me feel like you're not reading the game properly because you know people's alignments. Also you attacking BTD feels like a cheap push. Your hesitation to vote NSG makes me believe she could be town. One of you two are scum and it could very well be you.

VOTE: UCV

My cheap push? Did you read what I said. Did you even look at the chip defending BTD6, BTD6 defending chip? They seemed to support each other a lot. Didn't ever question each Other.
If I were scum, my best move would to support the NSG case. It is a way easier wagon than BTD6!

[Micc]

Saying words and criticising is not equal to a case. If you had actually paid attention to the interaction you'd know that all of zito's points weren't true. Chip was actually doing the things Zito said he should be doing as town.

You not seeing the hypocrisy makes me feel like you're not reading the game properly because you know people's alignments. Also you attacking BTD feels like a cheap push. Your hesitation to vote NSG makes me believe she could be town. One of you two are scum and it could very well be you.

VOTE: UCV

So you're saying you do want to debate the merit of the Chip lynch?

Why's UC getting the vote over northsidegal here?

[CheekyTeeky]

If I were scum, my best move would to support the NSG case. It is a way easier wagon than BTD6!

That is the obvious move not the best move. In your case your intent feels pretty townie.

VOTE: NSG

[CheekyTeeky]

Micc I like playing with you, hopefully you get how I work one day.

[UC Voyager]

I'm pretty confidante in my BTD6 case.

[CheekyTeeky]

Do others see what UCV sees in BTD6?

[Micc]

Micc I like playing with you, hopefully you get how I work one day.

some people are easier to get than others you know.

Do others see what UCV sees in BTD6?

I can see where he's coming from.

[northsidegal]

We've got Cabd as doc, BTD6 as v/la, and Hopkirk and Kawso in need of a prod. I also don't really want to lynch a lurker but I'm not yet getting any super scummy vibes among Micc, SS, CT, and NSG.

Of those four I'm finding Micc to be townest mainly because he refused to be fobbed off when burrowing on 56, even though i didn't give the answer he wanted right away. I think scum would probably have pretended to be satisfied and moved on more easily. However, of he is operating at the level of designing setups, we are probably screwed if he is scum.

the beginning of chip's "not getting scummy vibes from anyone" idea. although i agreed with this day one, i think if we think about this from the perspective of scum saying it, it gives weight to the idea of scum being within the people he mentioned. the rationale is this - chip probably intended to introduce the subtle, unconscious idea of an "active player townblock", where it would be the active players vs the lurkers, with scum being within the lurkers because "everyone participating is too towny". given this idea, i don't think it makes sense if chip's scumpartner is within the group of lurkers - the benefit of him placing himself in a townblock is balanced out by the possibility that he gets his partner lynched. with that in mind and given that i'm townreading micc and the ss slot, this gives more weight to cheeky as scum. i'll look at that more later.

Spoiler:

Okay one last comment before i go. I don't think the wagon on NSG is sound. Don't know if it is scummy or not. More later.

So who of Cheekyteeky, Micc, and nothsidegal is most likely to be scum on your wagon?

although that's a valid question on its own i think he was talking more generally about the idea that he'd be lynched just for the placement of his rvs vote and how scum would have to be on that wagon if it went trhough. i don't think specifically he was calling any of those three scum.

I liked this, because it shows Cabd is reading carefully, and i think scum would have let Micc's misreading slide through.

^^shows NSG is reading carefully

@Hopkirk: yeah I've been wanting to get back to that and im ISOing NSG right now. I'm split between 5 games and also am intermittently busy irl so just doing what i can. It's not like the game is moving quickly anyway, and most of my recent efforts have been responding to Micc's queries.

NSG cont.

83 and 88 defends Cabd against CT. Seems thoughtful and reading carefully.

The vote on Micc at 84 is...not good.

this could be me being paranoid, but i wonder if chip was subtly trying to frame me or pocket me in a lot of his posts. he mentions going through people's isos often, but i seemed to be the only one for whom he pointed out posts that made me towny. for most other people he seemed to just say that he had read their iso and then give a read on them.

I've read through Hopkirk's ISO a few more times but I'm left with the same impression of 'meh'. He's written quite a bit and i don't see anything overtly scummy but it all just seems like minor stuff and he has a slightly unhealthy focus on NSG, who i still lean town despite that unfortunate vote on Micc.

It's as if he is doing the same to NSG as i half-suspect Micc is doing to me: just choosing someone to more or less nitpick at, to look busy. At no point reading through Hopkirk's ISO do i get the feeling of aha! yeah he's onto something there'.

Of course, this is slightly unfair if me, since none of us has been able to come up with anything much, at least not publicly. However i don't get the same slightly troubled feeling when i read the NSG and CT ISOs, so i guess put it down to gut. I think I'll keep him at scumlean for now. It's kind of a negative, impressionistic case in a way, with no specific posts i can point at. That's why it is just a lean.

Just read NSG's ISO again. Need to read CT and Hopkirk again. So many interactions already - Cabd, Micc, and SS as well.

In a way, NSG has been at the centre of things so far. Will read through again later and post comments

.

Fwiw, I just re-read the SS ISO, and i still think it is solid, so that carries over to Papa Zito.

going through chip's iso, i noticed something strange. i put cheeky's iso in there too, and it hit me - for the two most active players in the game, cheeky and chip had really only interacted about 20 times. i really quoted every interaction that the two had and it comes out to exactly 20, by my count, and that's between the both of them. i can post all of them, quoted, if any of you would like. i'm not doing it here for space reasons - even spoilered it's still 20 posts. chip even recognized this in 374 in either a moment of self-reflection or a slight hint to a scumbuddy.

Oh no are you scum chip?

No, but we haven't interacted much in this game, so we probably should do that for a bit. What's on your mind?

also of note is how both chip and cheeky had eachother solidly in the highest tier of both of their readslists, just below the conftown for chip. i honestly believe people are giving cheeky far too little scrutiny today, especially her reaction to the chip wagon as compared to mine.

[northsidegal]

Saying words and criticising is not equal to a case. If you had actually paid attention to the interaction you'd know that all of zito's points weren't true. Chip was actually doing the things Zito said he should be doing as town.

You not seeing the hypocrisy makes me feel like you're not reading the game properly because you know people's alignments. Also you attacking BTD feels like a cheap push. Your hesitation to vote NSG makes me believe she could be town. One of you two are scum and it could very well be you.

VOTE: UCV

Saying words and criticising is not equal to a case. If you had actually paid attention to the interaction you'd know that all of zito's points weren't true. Chip was actually doing the things Zito said he should be doing as town.

You not seeing the hypocrisy makes me feel like you're not reading the game properly because you know people's alignments. Also you attacking BTD feels like a cheap push. Your hesitation to vote NSG makes me believe she could be town. One of you two are scum and it could very well be you.

VOTE: UCV

So you're saying you do want to debate the merit of the Chip lynch?

Why's UC getting the vote over northsidegal here?

If I were scum, my best move would to support the NSG case. It is a way easier wagon than BTD6!

That is the obvious move not the best move. In your case your intent feels pretty townie.

VOTE: NSG

i mean, do i even need to say anything here? i'm sure you all get my point just by looking at these.

Micc I like playing with you, hopefully you get how I work one day.

and here's the excuse / backpedaling.

[CheekyTeeky]

Yeah I hope one day to get my title as "The Schizophrenic" if that's not too offensive, it's not intended to be derogatory as I'd be proud to have that unreadable connotation. Anyway...

BTD6 was a likely candidate D1. When I compare their play it's not unusual that BTD and Chip didn't read each other as they hardly read others. BTD however gave reads when he was pushed whereas Chip waffled on about how hard it was to get reads which pinged me D1 but I'll admit I'm a sucker for witty/humorous players to be town (I'm working on this).

BTD could be scum but what makes NSG keep your vote Micc?

Also UCV I'm very impressed with what you presented and picked up

[CheekyTeeky]

NSG is another one who needs to get me. But it looks less likely that she will lol.

[UC Voyager]

Yeah I hope one day to get my title as "The Schizophrenic" if that's not too offensive, it's not intended to be derogatory as I'd be proud to have that unreadable connotation. Anyway...

BTD6 was a likely candidate D1. When I compare their play it's not unusual that BTD and Chip didn't read each other as they hardly read others. BTD however gave reads when he was pushed whereas Chip waffled on about how hard it was to get reads which pinged me D1 but I'll admit I'm a sucker for witty/humorous players to be town (I'm working on this).

BTD could be scum but what makes NSG keep your vote Micc?

Also UCV I'm very impressed with what you presented and picked up

ThNk you.....I guess

[Micc]

I don't know what there is to explain. I quoted a bunch of posts and gave the reasoning behind why I think they point to you being scum with Chip. I've given my burden of proof. Now it's up to you explain why you disagree.

northsidegal, can you respond this please?

BTD could be scum but what makes NSG keep your vote Micc?

I like being a part of strong wagons.

[Micc]

NSG is another one who needs to get me. But it looks less likely that she will lol.

i do think you probably owe her an explanation tho. I mean I think i know what your trying to say but I can't understand why there's any reason to be cryptic about it.