Open 701: Pick Yer Power X/Y Game Over!

[Lalendra]

Well, it seems like this game is going to be progressing at a good clip. Hi all, back from Thanksgiving shenanigans and ready to dive in.

Curious is how quickly you backtrack on asking for a roleclaim. Northside

hadn't even said a word

and you already felt like you needed to defend yourself with "no, I totally wasn't asking for roleclaims!". It gives the impression that

you knew

that you just committed a scum action.

---

There is one more curious thing about asking for roles: suppose Tex would claim her role. We, as townies, wouldn't have a clue whether her role was town or not. The mafia, however, would know—and if Tex is town (like you

somehow

silently assumed in post #35), then its all the more power to them. Roleclaiming seems kinda more beneficial to mafia than to town.

---

I would vote you, but my vote is already on you from the RVS, so I shall do the following:

UNVOTE: mutantdevle
VOTE: mutantdevle4reals

I agree with Aster's reasoning here, I really really don't like the rolefishing Mutant is doing. It's wayyyy too early in the game for that and is not at all beneficial to town. Even less beneficial is the way in which Mutant pointed out who should be the first NK, like are you kidding me?

Luckily for me, my placement in the list allowed me to choose my role more comfortably. Whether or not I received said role or what role I was after I am unwilling to disclose at this time.

So you acknowledge that you are unwilling to disclose your role; why would you feel that Tex may have been willing to do so?

I hadn't previously considered the possibility of scum taking roles to prevent town having them. Possibly because I'm someone who prefers to boost one's own team rather than subtracting from the other.

Look at this. I mean REALLY LOOK AT IT. He draws a parallel between the two and basically says "As scum, I prefer to boost my own team rather than try to subtract from town by taking their PR's away."

wow, finally getting this started - it feels like it's been over a month since i signed up.

Leaving here that I detected so far one post that looks very forced and one post that looks very genuine.

Free towncred if you can find each.

12 & 16?

Also I get the feeling this question is to just test for people who want to appear townie.

why did you answer it, then?

I would like an answer to this as well.

Ugh, that rolefishing.

mutant, have you tried a newbie before?

I don't like this. His join date is a month ago but he already said earlier in the thread that he has plenty of experience playing mafia, and in case that wasn't clear, he even refutes your noob claim later:

What I'm worried about mutantdevle is that he has no idea of how mafia works here. So I'm thinking his rolefishing is town motivated even if it's pretty bad.

I’m familiarising myself with how things work on this site. I’m yet to complete a game here but I am currently in 3 of them. On the EE forums however I have played at least 6 games and even hosted one. The mafia culture there is a lot different though. So basically I’m not completely inexperienced and I wouldn’t want anyone to discard me as that.

I almost think that Creature is a scumbuddy who is trying to help out Mutant, and Mutant is just too prideful to take the bait.

I told you that scum participated in the draft... Surely that's better than saying look at the setup

Firstly, you played a "I don't know how this setup works" trick to look more town, then you took the conversation off topic and tried to keep it off topic, seems scummy to me.

VOTE: Chip butty

I don't like how Wilky is willfully ignoring the rolefishing issue which has generated so much discussion otherwise.

If i had to pick 3 right now:

Wilky for being squirmy and casting a defensive vote.
Mutant for blatant and ill-advised role fishing.
Aster for too much setup spec.

In no particular order yet...

I don't know how I feel about this, he acknowledges the issue with Mutant but it seems obligatory, like he just has to acknowledge what's going on.

VOTE: mutantdevie for bandwagoning.

(This is totally unrelated from my fear of mutant zombies.)

Seemed forced.

VOTE: Pisskop - One scum in the group of 1's for sure.

Also holy shit, look at that. I managed to pick the one number that wouldn't screw me and someone else over.

Seemed genuine.

Can you explain this a bit more? These are both RVS votes, surely your reads have to have developed a little more since then. Also, why are you just now answering this question, which was already pointed out by Mutant as seemingly obvious fishing for towncred?

[Lalendra]

Oh and
VOTE: Mutantdevle

[Elmo TeH AzN]

@Mod: Did mafia have pre-game chat before draft was sent in?

Throughout the bidding phases, the thread is locked, however, mafia may collude privately during this time and then again throughout the day.

[Elmo TeH AzN]

Vote Count 1.2

CommKnight - (1) Misatange
Creature -
northsidegal -
Aster - (1) Creature
texcat - (1) Pisskop
Viomi -
mutantdevle - (5) Aster, northsidegal, texcat, Chip Butty, Lalendra
pisskop - (1) Commknight
Chip Butty - (2) wilky, Assemblerotws
Lalendra -
wilky -
CityElectric -
MisaTange -
Assemblerotws -

Not Voting: Viomi, mutantdevle, CityElectric, Chip Butty
With 14 Alive. Takes 8 To Lynch. 7 To No Lynch.
Deadline Timer (expired on 2017-12-10 12:00:00)

[mutantdevle]

Even less beneficial is the way in which Mutant pointed out who should be the first NK, like are you kidding me?

I never said she

should

be the first NK. I was simply stating that, as the only player that is 100% definately a PR, that makes her the most likely candidate for the NK.

So you acknowledge that you are unwilling to disclose your role; why would you feel that Tex may have been willing to do so?

On the rare chance that she chose a role that would benifit us to be known (as I explained earlier). It could also serve as a nudge to her that she is the most likely person to be shot, if she had not previously considered that, and that she should do something about it if she can. Furthermore, it would have allowed her to comfortably fake claim a role that could potentially make the mafia consider not shooting her.

Leaving here that I detected so far one post that looks very forced and one post that looks very genuine.

Free towncred if you can find each.

12 & 16?

Also I get the feeling this question is to just test for people who want to appear townie.

why did you answer it, then?

I would like an answer to this as well.[/quote]
I apologise for not answering this sooner; I thought it was sarcasm. I answered partly because I felt like it and partly because it was Creature asking it. I would have assumed that my acknowledgment of the town bait intention would make my response a null tell.

In regards to Creature, if it wasn't already clear we both used to play an old multiplayer flash game called Everybody Edits (EE). In it's prime there would be 2000 players online at any one time. It has since fallen from grace due to bad ownership and is basically dead now. Creature quit the game a long time ago but I still play it. We didn't know each other in EE but the I think the shared sentiment of this being a game we both enjoyed has caused as to have a natural town view on each other; hence why he has been defending me. Well it's either that or Creature is scum counting on my mislynch to clear my name :P (I don't genuinly believe that. I am currently town reading him).

Oh and
VOTE: Mutantdevle

:(

[Creature]

I don't like this. His join date is a month ago but he already said earlier in the thread that he has plenty of experience playing mafia, and in case that wasn't clear, he even refutes your noob claim later:

The problem is that EE forums mafia isn't a good experience. EE forums isn't a good mafia forums, I doubt it's even serious. So he should be a total newbie for serious mafia.

[wilky]

I told you that scum participated in the draft... Surely that's better than saying look at the setup

Firstly, you played a "I don't know how this setup works" trick to look more town, then you took the conversation off topic and tried to keep it off topic, seems scummy to me.

VOTE: Chip butty

I don't like how Wilky is willfully ignoring the rolefishing issue which has generated so much discussion otherwise.

I didn't willfully ignore anything though did I? I questioned mutant on it and eventually said I thought he sounded more idiot town than scum.

[mutantdevle]

I don't like this. His join date is a month ago but he already said earlier in the thread that he has plenty of experience playing mafia, and in case that wasn't clear, he even refutes your noob claim later:

The problem is that EE forums mafia isn't a good experience. EE forums isn't a good mafia forums, I doubt it's even serious. So he should be a total newbie for serious mafia.

Personally, I have found it a good experience. My first game was on discord as well :3 As for seriousness we have our fair share of serious players (myself included) but the infrequent games and ~50% lurker count is what made me turn to this forum (I still play there though when games are available).

But just don't pass me off as a noob :P

[mutantdevle]

Obviously, I'm still adjusting though and hence I will make mistakes. Luckily, they are mainly post formatting mistakes such as 129 but this is the first proper mistake I have made so far on this site.

[Creature]

Speaking of which, Texcat, are you going to tell us what role you chose? Since you are the first in the draft order you are guaranteed to have a PR. Hence you are the most likely candidate for the scum to shoot.

In your games was it normal to ask someone to claim so early?

[wilky]

VOTE: Chip
You should know better than this.

I'm not keen on this post. There's no real reasoning behind the vote, can you clarify your position a bit further please?

VOTE: mutantdevie for bandwagoning.

(This is totally unrelated from my fear of mutant zombies.)

Seemed forced.

VOTE: Pisskop - One scum in the group of 1's for sure.

Also holy shit, look at that. I managed to pick the one number that wouldn't screw me and someone else over.

Seemed genuine.

Why does 12 seem forced? Why does 16 feel genuine?

[CityElectric]

Right, let's get down to business.

Mutant confuses me a little. He's either idiot town, or scum, and nothing quite jumps out to me as super telling either way. I'm a little inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt here, due to the low number of games he participated in, but consider my eye on him. And since we're on the topic of Mutant anyway...

Obviously, I'm still adjusting though and hence I will make mistakes. Luckily, they are mainly post formatting mistakes such as 129 but

this

is the first proper mistake I have made so far on this site.

What is 'this' referring to?

Chip Butty's 98 is just bad. Actually, the majority of his posts are bad. 62 and 63 also read a little weirdly to me. Chip, can you explain to me why you voted Mutant there?

@Creature: Now that you have given an answer to your forced/genuine question, mind sharing what you think about the reactions? Especially MisaTange's 22. Also, you seem to be townreading pisskop, why? Actually, that kinda goes for the majority of your reads so far, can you give me some more motivations/explanations for them?

In post 54, mutantdevle wrote:
I hadn't previously considered the possibility of scum taking roles to prevent town having them. Possibly because I'm someone who prefers to boost one's own team rather than subtracting from the other.

Look at this. I mean REALLY LOOK AT IT. He draws a parallel between the two and basically says "As scum, I prefer to boost my own team rather than try to subtract from town by taking their PR's away."

I see what you're saying, but I fail to see why this in particular makes him look scummy. Can you explain?

As for some very early, very tentative reads so far, wilky seems town to me, north also leans townie to me. While I'm not a huge fan of the reads she has, Lalendra also seems to come from a town place. Chip feels scummy to me, as does Creature, who is throwing out a whole load of statements, without providing a whole load of reasoning behind them. Mutant's alignment is as certain as a coin toss to me right now, could be scum, could be town. I don't have particularly big opinions on the others either way.

[MisaTange]

@Creature/mutant: (to try to settle the 'idiot town/scum issue) in EE, is it common to setup speculate on the first pages?

Also @mutant: Why do you tr Creature besides sharing the same forums back then?

[Aster]

While I am getting strong "idiot" vibes from mutantdevle, I'm not convinced that they are "village idiot" vibes. Being a VI could explain why he was rolefishing, but it does not explain why he was so quick to backtrack on his fishing. Many of his actions can be caused by either idiocity or mafianess, but his hastiness of backtracking cannot simply be explained by being a VI. If he was merely a VI who thought rolefishing was acceptable, then I'd think that his reaction to northside would be more along the lines of "WTF are you voting me?" rather than "Oh noes I'm being voted for rolefishing". It strongly suggests to me that he had a "guilty conscience" about it and therefore quickly realised what northside was on about.

On a slightly unrelated note, there is one more thing I want him to clarify:

On the rare chance that she chose a role that would benifit us to be known (as I explained earlier). It could also serve as a nudge to her that she is the most likely person to be shot, if she had not previously considered that, and that she should do something about it if she can. Furthermore, it would have allowed her to comfortably fake claim a role that could potentially make the mafia consider not shooting her.

Tell me, mutant, do you really believe that it would be a good idea to have Texcat fakeclaim, supposing Texcat were to be a townie?

---

While I'm keeping my vote on mutant, there's somebody else who's been attracting my attention:

I doubt that scum were really in the draft.

This statement rubs me the wrong way. It is one thing to not know whether or not there are scum in the draft, fail to look it up on the wiki, fail to ask about it, fail to make the mental step "14 players and 14 numbers => everyone sent in numbers => mafia sent in numbers" and fail to make something of the requirement that open games have no hidden rules, but to actually state your blatantly false idea as to correct others is kinda overkill.

Like, you're not even asking or wondering whether scum participated in the draft, but you're just kind-of-confidently stating something you made up.

Of course, players (humans) who do such things exist (unfortunately), but there's another kind of player that exists as well: those who pretend to be ignorant about some basic game principle in an attempt to prove that they cannot be mafia.

I can't say I've got a lot of experience with this stuff happening, but the last (and only) time before I saw somebody pull this trick, they turned out to be the latter kind (and mafia to boot.) So I'll be keeping an eye on you.

[Creature]

@Creature/mutant: (to try to settle the 'idiot town/scum issue) in EE, is it common to setup speculate on the first pages?

I guess it's more that the players there don't take mafia so seriously.

[CommKnight]

@Mod: Did mafia have pre-game chat before draft was sent in?

Throughout the bidding phases, the thread is locked, however, mafia may collude privately during this time and then again throughout the day.

Now, can anyone guess why I wanted this information?

[northsidegal]

Now, can anyone guess why I wanted this information?

so given that scum can coordinate their picks, we can probably assume that there's at most one scum within each given number group. i don't think scum would try to wifom this point when it means giving so much power to town. this also gives me a few ideas about the motivations behind a few numbers, but those are for later - it's stupid to base entire reads off of picks.

[texcat]

@Mod: Did mafia have pre-game chat before draft was sent in?

Throughout the bidding phases, the thread is locked, however, mafia may collude privately during this time and then again throughout the day.

Now, can anyone guess why I wanted this information?

Again I suspect that you asked for it to look townie. This info was available in the setup.

[CommKnight]

Well Texcat, there's the off chance they didn't have pre-game chat. It goes on to my next point which North already sees.

It is highly unlikely scum picked the same number, that means that in the event we lynch a scummer in such a group, we can theroetically auto-clear the other person(s) who chose that number.

Also based on the logic scum want PRs. Misa actually gets some bonus points. Sure they'll be ahead of anyone who picks a duplicate number, but they'll never be ahead of people who picked a unique number, thus possibly giving up almost all PRs right from the get-go.

We also have another set-up advantage. Vanilla Townies are actually pretty powerful. If they landed a VT role, they know someone in the list above them got the role pair they picked. Which means if someone below them fake claims a role, they can be immediately called out.

But for now, that's what I got. Mutant is definitely a good start with his role fishing.

[Viomi]

VOTE: mutantdevle

[Viomi]

Texcat - 2

Northsidegal - 3

Assemblerotws - 4
CommKnight - 6

Mutantdevle - 8

MisaTange - 30
CityElectric - 5
Chip Butty - 5

Wilky - 7
Creature - 7

Lalendra - 7
Aster - 1

Pisskop - 1

Viomi - 1

Groups to look at:
{texcat, Assemblerotws, CommKnight}
{CityElectric, Chip Butty}
{Lalendra, Aster, Viomi}

1. I don't think scum gets to talk before draft
2. Even if they did, they could have multiple people choose the same thing just to throw people like you off. It's WIFOM.

[Creature]

Scum should have chat before draft.

[pisskop]

absolutely.

is it everyone's first rodeo?
and, as mentioned, its available in the setup on the wiki and OPs.

- we expect any nongambiting scumteam to not pick the same numbers
- we expect any scum who throws away their coordination advantage to not have done the math.
- what number means nothing
- their is no more viability in hunting a somebody who picked a lone '3' as there is a group of '5'.
- being first in the draft doesnt make you !scum, but does guarantee that you have acess to being our vig.

[mutantdevle]

Speaking of which, Texcat, are you going to tell us what role you chose? Since you are the first in the draft order you are guaranteed to have a PR. Hence you are the most likely candidate for the scum to shoot.

In your games was it normal to ask someone to claim so early?

Not usually, no. It's only occurred once on that forum for me. It's just my approach to this format of game was that the players at the top of the draw list are more likely to be a PR and we know for certain the person at the very top would be a PR. Therefore I was giving them the opportunity to role claim IF they felt it could benefit the town. It looks a lot less dodgy if you roleclaim after being asked if you would rather than just straight up role claiming.

What is 'this' referring to?

'This' refers to the whole 'mistake' of asking for if texcat would consider role claiming. I myself do not view it as a mistake as such as in my opinion it would be a perfectly valid thing for texcat to do IF her role would benefit town members from knowing it. But I get the feeling that others would view it as a mistake and a bad idea to roleclaim regardless of her role. On my part, it's a mistake in that I mistakingly thought players would be more open to the POSSIBILITY of a roleclaim but alas most players have reacted as though I have demanded one.

@Creature/mutant: (to try to settle the 'idiot town/scum issue) in EE, is it common to setup speculate on the first pages?

I think Creature's and I's experiences of mafia on EE are going to be different. Creature hasn't played EE in a long time (as far as I am aware). I only started being involved with the EE forums long after Creature left and they had stopped playing mafia. However, earlier this year they revived the tradition of playing a Mafia game every month or so which was kicked off with a game on discord. Since then, they have all been forum games which would be considered blitz games on this site as each day is only 72 hours. There also isn't really many guidelines for the games we play. As such, most games consist of non-standard mechanics. So based on the fact that almost none of the games we play there are "normal" there tends to be a lot of speculation to the mechanics since most of them we have never played before. In the game I hosted I introduced quite a few new mechanics so there was definitely a lot of speculation there including on the first day. In particular, the game I hosted had 2 pairs of players with the same role which caused a mislynch as the town concluded they didn't think the setup would have 2 of the same role.

In short, if we weren't told the roles beforehand, yes. There was a lot of speculation.

Also @mutant: Why do you tr Creature besides sharing the same forums back then?

I had initially planned to ignore the fact that we have a shared sentiment when coming into this game. But since he has been town reading and actively defending me throughout the game, it makes it hard to consider he would be working against my alignment. As a side note, for those of you who think Creature might be scum, do you really think he would defend a town member who could be so easily scrutinised for role fishing? If you don't believe that I am town and he is actually scum trying to help out a noob then at least my mislynch would give Creature more of a town status.

While I am getting strong "idiot" vibes from mutantdevle, I'm not convinced that they are "village idiot" vibes. Being a VI could explain why he was rolefishing, but it does not explain why he was so quick to backtrack on his fishing. Many of his actions can be caused by either idiocy or mafianess, but his hastiness of backtracking cannot simply be explained by being a VI. If he was merely a VI who thought rolefishing was acceptable, then I'd think that his reaction to northside would be more along the lines of "WTF are you voting me?" rather than "Oh noes I'm being voted for rolefishing". It strongly suggests to me that he had a "guilty conscience" about it and therefore quickly realised what northside was on about.

I'm neither a VI nor am I scum. I do not accept I was role fishing I was simply asking a fish if they'd be willing to jump out of the water. I had no intention of throwing my hook into the water if she said no. A role claim could be tactical if it is done right, it is not always a bad thing to do.

On the rare chance that she chose a role that would benifit us to be known (as I explained earlier). It could also serve as a nudge to her that she is the most likely person to be shot, if she had not previously considered that, and that she should do something about it if she can. Furthermore, it would have allowed her to comfortably fake claim a role that could potentially make the mafia consider not shooting her.

Tell me, mutant, do you really believe that it would be a good idea to have Texcat fakeclaim, supposing Texcat were to be a townie?

Texcat had free choice of role. She had the freedom to choose absolutely any role on the list without worry that someone else may take the role. As a result, she could choose whichever role she thought was the strongest. Hence she potentially has the strongest and most valuable role in the game. Fake claiming as something either less useful or potentially damaging for the mafia if they were to target her could prevent them from doing so. Personally, I would consider the act of fake claiming as a little selfish since there are the dangers of someone CC and it would divert the kill to someone else but I put the option there for if she wanted to take it.

[wilky]

Well Texcat, there's the off chance they didn't have pre-game chat. It goes on to my next point which North already sees.

It is highly unlikely scum picked the same number, that means that in the event we lynch a scummer in such a group, we can theroetically auto-clear the other person(s) who chose that number.

Also based on the logic scum want PRs. Misa actually gets some bonus points. Sure they'll be ahead of anyone who picks a duplicate number, but they'll never be ahead of people who picked a unique number, thus possibly giving up almost all PRs right from the get-go.

We also have another set-up advantage. Vanilla Townies are actually pretty powerful. If they landed a VT role, they know someone in the list above them got the role pair they picked. Which means if someone below them fake claims a role, they can be immediately called out.

But for now, that's what I got. Mutant is definitely a good start with his role fishing.

On the contrary, I have read a pick your power game on this site (i'm on my lunch break just now but will have a look for the game tonight if others want to read it) and scum did wagon numbers in the draft. Not all of course, they had if I remember correctly two wagons then a few individual numbers.