Open 701: Pick Yer Power X/Y Game Over!

[CityElectric]

In post 136, CityElectric wrote:
What is 'this' referring to?

'This' refers to the whole 'mistake' of asking for if texcat would consider role claiming. I myself do not view it as a mistake as such as in my opinion it would be a perfectly valid thing for texcat to do IF her role would benefit town members from knowing it. But I get the feeling that others would view it as a mistake and a bad idea to roleclaim regardless of her role. On my part, it's a mistake in that I mistakingly thought players would be more open to the POSSIBILITY of a roleclaim but alas most players have reacted as though I have demanded one.

Ah, right, your post was worded in such a way it could either refer to the formatting mistake or what you mention here, I wanted to clear that up.

Having said that, I have a huge problem with this. It looks like you consider your mistake to be 'I suggested something that made everyone think I'm scum' rather than 'I suggested something that I thought was a good idea, but actually was disadvantageous for town.'. That is not a town mindset.

I would vote you right here, right now, but if I counted correctly, that would put you at L-1 and I consider it to be way too early in the game to go there quite yet, as we're only on page 6, we have a little over 12 days left, and I've still got no solid reads on the majority of the player list, but consider my vote to be on you.

[CityElectric]

What is 'this' referring to?

'This' refers to the whole 'mistake' of asking for if texcat would consider role claiming. I myself do not view it as a mistake as such as in my opinion it would be a perfectly valid thing for texcat to do IF her role would benefit town members from knowing it. But I get the feeling that others would view it as a mistake and a bad idea to roleclaim regardless of her role. On my part, it's a mistake in that I mistakingly thought players would be more open to the POSSIBILITY of a roleclaim but alas most players have reacted as though I have demanded one.

Ah, right, your post was worded in such a way it could either refer to the formatting mistake or what you mention here, I wanted to clear that up.

Having said that, I have a huge problem with this. It looks like you consider your mistake to be 'I suggested something that made everyone think I'm scum' rather than 'I suggested something that I thought was a good idea, but actually was disadvantageous for town.'. That is not a town mindset.

I would vote you right here, right now, but if I counted correctly, that would put you at L-1 and I consider it to be way too early in the game to go there quite yet, as we're only on page 6, we have a little over 12 days left, and I've still got no solid reads on the majority of the player list, but consider my vote to be on you.

EBWOP: fixed the quote tags. Also due to accidental page top, we're actually on page 7... Still think that's too early though.

[Lalendra]

I do not accept I was role fishing I was simply asking a fish if they'd be willing to jump out of the water. I had no intention of throwing my hook into the water if she said no.

This just sounds like semantics.

Texcat had free choice of role. She had the freedom to choose absolutely any role on the list without worry that someone else may take the role. As a result, she could choose whichever role she thought was the strongest.

Hence she potentially has the strongest and most valuable role in the game.

Fake claiming as something either less useful or potentially damaging for the mafia if they were to target her could prevent them from doing so. Personally,

I would consider the act of fake claiming as a little selfish

since there are the dangers of someone CC and it would divert the kill to someone else but I put the option there for if she wanted to take it.

Either way, starting a conversation about her role is anti-town, to me. If she has the strongest and most valuable role in the game, why bring attention to it? You said it might benefit town to know what it was, but it also benefits scum. And then you say fake-claiming would be selfish, but by bringing up the topic of her claim (whether you think it was role-fishing or not is irrelevant), you are leading to one or the other of those eventualities. If she indicates she doesn't want to claim, you have still cast a spotlight on her, turning her into lynchbait if she is town, and thereby potentially losing one of our biggest assets.

[mutantdevle]

In post 136, CityElectric wrote:
What is 'this' referring to?

'This' refers to the whole 'mistake' of asking for if texcat would consider role claiming. I myself do not view it as a mistake as such as in my opinion it would be a perfectly valid thing for texcat to do IF her role would benefit town members from knowing it. But I get the feeling that others would view it as a mistake and a bad idea to roleclaim regardless of her role. On my part, it's a mistake in that I mistakingly thought players would be more open to the POSSIBILITY of a roleclaim but alas most players have reacted as though I have demanded one.

Ah, right, your post was worded in such a way it could either refer to the formatting mistake or what you mention here, I wanted to clear that up.

Having said that, I have a huge problem with this. It looks like you consider your mistake to be 'I suggested something that made everyone think I'm scum' rather than 'I suggested something that I thought was a good idea, but actually was disadvantageous for town.'. That is not a town mindset.

I would vote you right here, right now, but if I counted correctly, that would put you at L-1 and I consider it to be way too early in the game to go there quite yet, as we're only on page 6, we have a little over 12 days left, and I've still got no solid reads on the majority of the player list, but consider my vote to be on you.

It’s not as simple as one or the other, it’s a mixture of the 2 + some more.

My interpretation of the game so far is that “I suggested something that I thought was a good idea which I still think would have been a good idea

depending on what textcat’s role actually is

but due to the extent of the backlash I’m probably going to be mislynched.”

If you do have to look back on my mislynch then I encourage y’all to try and decipher who on my wagon is genuinely voting for me because they think I am scum and who is just voting because I made myself an easy target.

Tbh I’ve been in this situation before. My obscure way of thinking has put me at L-1 in the past. In both situations the wagon broke down and I was considered one of the most townie players for the rest of the game (until I get shot that is). This would be the first time I’m misslynched on either forum I’ve played on. Even if I get lucky and my wagon breaks down again then I still don’t feel that would entirely be the best situation as I feel like most people have already made up their mind that I’m either scum or an idiot. In both cases my opinion would be ignored.

[Viomi]

In post 136, CityElectric wrote:
What is 'this' referring to?

'This' refers to the whole 'mistake' of asking for if texcat would consider role claiming. I myself do not view it as a mistake as such as in my opinion it would be a perfectly valid thing for texcat to do IF her role would benefit town members from knowing it. But I get the feeling that others would view it as a mistake and a bad idea to roleclaim regardless of her role. On my part, it's a mistake in that I mistakingly thought players would be more open to the POSSIBILITY of a roleclaim but alas most players have reacted as though I have demanded one.

Ah, right, your post was worded in such a way it could either refer to the formatting mistake or what you mention here, I wanted to clear that up.

Having said that, I have a huge problem with this. It looks like you consider your mistake to be 'I suggested something that made everyone think I'm scum' rather than 'I suggested something that I thought was a good idea, but actually was disadvantageous for town.'. That is not a town mindset.

I would vote you right here, right now, but if I counted correctly, that would put you at L-1 and I consider it to be way too early in the game to go there quite yet, as we're only on page 6, we have a little over 12 days left, and I've still got no solid reads on the majority of the player list, but consider my vote to be on you.

It’s not as simple as one or the other, it’s a mixture of the 2 + some more.

My interpretation of the game so far is that “I suggested something that I thought was a good idea which I still think would have been a good idea

depending on what textcat’s role actually is

but due to the extent of the backlash I’m probably going to be mislynched.”

If you do have to look back on my mislynch then I encourage y’all to try and decipher who on my wagon is genuinely voting for me because they think I am scum and who is just voting because I made myself an easy target.

Tbh I’ve been in this situation before. My obscure way of thinking has put me at L-1 in the past. In both situations the wagon broke down and I was considered one of the most townie players for the rest of the game (until I get shot that is). This would be the first time I’m misslynched on either forum I’ve played on. Even if I get lucky and my wagon breaks down again then I still don’t feel that would entirely be the best situation as I feel like most people have already made up their mind that I’m either scum or an idiot. In both cases my opinion would be ignored.

There is no situation in which her claim would be helpful to us.

[CommKnight]

What is Mutant at? I want to put him at L1 if he isn't already.

The only reason I can see for him to rolefish other than taking out town PRs is to have mafia roleblock, jail, redirect, etc.

[CommKnight]

Mutant is at L1, so i say. INTENTION TO HAMMER.

Time for a claim.

[Elmo TeH AzN]

Vote Count 1.3

CommKnight - (1) Misatange
Creature -
northsidegal -
Aster - (1) Creature
texcat - (1) Pisskop
Viomi -
mutantdevle - (6) Aster, northsidegal, texcat, Chip Butty, Lalendra, Viomi
pisskop - (1) Commknight
Chip Butty - (2) wilky, Assemblerotws
Lalendra -
wilky -
CityElectric -
MisaTange -
Assemblerotws -

Not Voting: mutantdevle, CityElectric, Chip Butty
With 14 Alive. Takes 8 To Lynch. 7 To No Lynch.
Deadline Timer (expired on 2017-12-10 12:00:00)

[CommKnight]

Oh, that's 7 to no lynch.

VOTE: Mutant

Now he's at L1, anyone want to intent?

[pisskop]

sure.

intent

[mutantdevle]

Hold up, I'm writing a big ass post. Lynch me after that if you must.

[mutantdevle]

Either way, starting a conversation about her role is anti-town, to me. If she has the strongest and most valuable role in the game, why bring attention to it? You said it might benefit town to know what it was, but it also benefits scum. And then you say fake-claiming would be selfish, but by bringing up the topic of her claim (whether you think it was role-fishing or not is irrelevant), you are leading to one or the other of those eventualities. If she indicates she doesn't want to claim, you have still cast a spotlight on her, turning her into lynchbait if she is town, and thereby potentially losing one of our biggest assets.

I did not start a conversation about her role. This conversation was started by people forming a backlash against my question to textcat. I had no intention of starting a conversation. I simply wanted a yes or a no to my question.

Bringing attention to the fact she has a role that is her first choice has absolutely no effect. Any half decent scum could make that conclusion. The very nature of this game would suggest that logically the person at the top of the list is most likely to be targeted by the mafia first. The only exception would be if the mafia found someone else to be more of a threat based on what they say during D1.

Also literally no one is going to want to lynch her just because she doesn't want to role claim. The idea that she'd become lynch bait by not roleclaiming is ridiculous; especially since she has already said she is not going to role claim and no one has batted an eyelid over it. If she is an informative role then a role claim would eventually be necessary. Because it's either that or she takes what she has learnt to the grave. Any power role that can learn information has to role claim eventually. They just have to time it right and do it before they die. Personally, I'd argue that if you are the most likely to die night 1 then

depending on your role

it may be a good idea to roleclaim in some circumstances.

There is no situation in which her claim would be helpful to us.

Omg wow you're right! You have changed my opinion on this subject without even presenting a well thought out opinion on it and without even having looked into. Thank you so much! Jeez, guys sorry for being so wrong. /sarcasm. Viome is one of the players you should look at for not genuinly opposing me and being on the wagon just because.

For the record, I am willing to accept the idea that role claiming is wrong no matter the circumstance at this point in the game. But so far no one has been intent on presenting a case countering the points I put forth in examples I give where it may be a good idea nor has anyone made an effort into trying to change my opinion but rather jump straight into using what I say to present the case that I am scum.

Since no one seems to be able to comprehend the idea that some role claims may be a good idea. I've made this list of what I would do in Texcat's situation if I was asked

if

I was going to role claim in each role:

Spoiler: Roles and my theorised response

Disclaimer: I obviously wouldn't pick most of these roles If I was first in the draft.


Night 3 Vigilante: Personally I would not role claim. However, you could role claim in the hopes the scum leave you alone D1 and try to kill you D2 in order to stop your kill on D3. However, since the scum would likely try to kill you D2, that's when either a doctor or jailkeeper could target you to keep you safe.

Vengeful: I'd role claim. It would make neither town nor scum want to kill me due to the risk I could kill someone of their faction upon death. This is also a good role to fake claim for the very same reason.

1-Shot Vigilante: I'd role claim and make sure everyone knows who I am going to kill. This gives the player I target the chance to protect themself. If the person I try to kill does not die then we know that person was protected by someone or themselves. If we ever discover that the person I tried to kill is scum then we know that scum has a protective / roleblocking role. Alternatively, if we ever find the scum have a protective / roleblocking ability then they may be scum themselves. There are a lot of other examples of how we can learn things by knowing who a vig is going to kill. If you are probably going to die D1, you may as well tell us who you try to kill so we can learn things.

1-Shot PGO: Here you can either let the scum kill you and take one out with yourself OR you can claim to be PGO and gambit over whether or not you should still use your ability. The problem with staying quiet about being a PGO is that a protective role might try to protect you and as a result, you kill them too. That's why I'd probably role claim and gambit saving the ability for another night.

Cop: I wouldn't role claim.

Redirector: I wouldn't role claim.

1-Shot Commuter: I'd role claim. This way the protector roles know to protect someone else instead of me (eg. second in the draft list). You can then gambit whether to actually use the ability. Personally, I probably would.

1-Shot Watcher: I wouldn't role claim.

Doctor: I wouldn't role claim.

Roleblocker: I wouldn't role claim.

Universal Backup: I wouldn't role claim.

Role Cop: I wouldn't role claim.

Neighborizer: I wouldn't role claim.

Fruit Vendor: I'd role claim. If I am believed then the mafia wont kill me.

Jailkeeper: I wouldn't role claim.

Tracker: I wouldn't role claim.


So basically, some roles would be useful if they role claimed. Obviously not very many but some of the stronger roles would be helpful for us to know (depending on how much the player 1st in the draft order likes to gambit).

Time for a claim.

No. If I role claim I may as well place the vote on myself.


Also, do you all really think that scum would make such a big slip as this so early in the game? I've never seen it but obviously nothing I say bears any weight. Also is is not just a little anti-town to end the day so quickly? CityElectric had the right idea of placing a hypothetical vote on me instead of a physical one. I don't mean to sound as though I'm stalling for time but surely that's what you should be doing? I'm okay with being lynched as to the rest of the town I have fucked up but I just can't help but feel the way in which I have been scummy is something you lynch when short for time. If I were in all your's situation I would have probably initially been on my wagon when the whole "GAH HE'S ROLEFISHING, MUST BE SCUM" thing started but I'm sure I would have unvoted upon explanation only to revote again if no better candidate was found. I have always valued a lynch over a no lynch so I am always one to vote on people I'm not even entirely sure are scum if time gets low. I even do that when it means lynching myself. If time gets low on D1 I can assure you I would help y'all to lynch me if time required but I just can't help but feel there are a lot of scum on my wagon when they are so prepared to end the day so early.


If you are going to hammer me anytime soon then hammer me now. I want to make sure I get some words in during twilight. I am about to start writing my post for after I am lynched on a document ready to paste in case I am lynched immediately (I will be refreshing the page often to find out). But either way, I ask that you make sure you are prepared to lynch so soon into day 1; especially since not everyone would have had time to see I am on L-1 and unvote if they felt it was too soon. In my opinion, it would be quite scummy to lynch me so soon on their behalf when they may not be so comfortable with doing so. But I guess y'all think that's me being hypocritical.

As for this whole misunderstanding in general just note that I can't redeem myself if you don't give me a chance to do so. But whatever.

Do what you must.

[CommKnight]

No. If I role claim I may as well place the vote on myself.

No claim = no sympathy of being hammered. If you don't claim, you will get hammered.

[mutantdevle]

No. If I role claim I may as well place the vote on myself.

No claim = no sympathy of being hammered. If you don't claim, you will get hammered.

I don’t want sympathy. Being hammered and role claiming has the same consequences. There is no way out for me or my role here.

[wilky]

No. If I role claim I may as well place the vote on myself.

No claim = no sympathy of being hammered. If you don't claim, you will get hammered.

What would claiming actually acheive in this setup though? Claiming any role doesn't give answer to alignment.


I don't have much to add to the intent on mutant, I personally see him as idiot town but I can see why he would be perceived as scum. I wouldn't hammer him so early in D1 though we are then missing out on so much time to get information and draw scum out.

[mutantdevle]

No. If I role claim I may as well place the vote on myself.

No claim = no sympathy of being hammered. If you don't claim, you will get hammered.

What would claiming actually acheive in this setup though? Claiming any role doesn't give answer to alignment.


I don't have much to add to the intent on mutant, I personally see him as idiot town but I can see why he would be perceived as scum. I wouldn't hammer him so early in D1 though we are then missing out on so much time to get information and draw scum out.

I agree with this post aside from the idiot town part. Being discarded as simply an idiot is why I don’t really care about living on if my opinions are just going to be dubbed as idiocy. I’m not an idiot; I’ve just made a mistake.

[Chip Butty]

@mutant:

You've implied you think those at the top of the draft order potentially have the most powerful roles, and that scum will nk accordingly. You are only 5th in the lynch order yet you say if you claimed you would definitely draw the nk? How does that work?

Also can you give a specific claim tex could have made that would be beneficial to town? Why do you think you needed to prompt her to fakeclaim, and why did you think your prompt would inspire her to do so, if she hadnt6already thought of it herself?

[Chip Butty]

I'm not really sure pressing mutant for a claim is beneficial in this setup. As scum he could just claim whatever role he actually got from the draft, since scum and town were choosing from the same pool. No need to lie, and therefore no need to get caught lying.

[Creature]

Still think he's flipping town.

[Creature]

Ugh, but not sure if he deserves to live.

[Chip Butty]

Yeah, I'm not comfortable with him being on intent at this point. I want to go back and read through the posts that got him into hot water. Will decide then if i want to revote him...

UNVOTE:

[Creature]

I don't want this day to be extreme unproductive so I'd:
- End the mutant wagon
- Ignore mutant and hunt scum elsewhere
- Choose a lynch without it necessarily needing to be mutant

[Creature]

Good thing mutant at most just pointed what was obvious and texcat didn't even listen.

[wilky]

No. If I role claim I may as well place the vote on myself.

No claim = no sympathy of being hammered. If you don't claim, you will get hammered.

What would claiming actually acheive in this setup though? Claiming any role doesn't give answer to alignment.


I don't have much to add to the intent on mutant, I personally see him as idiot town but I can see why he would be perceived as scum. I wouldn't hammer him so early in D1 though we are then missing out on so much time to get information and draw scum out.

I agree with this post aside from the idiot town part. Being discarded as simply an idiot is why I don’t really care about living on if my opinions are just going to be dubbed as idiocy. I’m not an idiot; I’ve just made a mistake.

Wait a minute? Only that point you don't agree with? Following your own logic would suggest that you claiming might be worthwhile, you also said that people would have picked roles that would fit their allignment in your eyes so I assume you would have done something to that extent.

Whilst I don't agree claiming in this sense is the best thing to do surely

you

do?

[Chip Butty]

Speaking of which, Texcat, are you going to tell us what role you chose? Since you are the first in the draft order you are guaranteed to have a PR. Hence you are the most likely candidate for the scum to shoot.

This can be read as 'Hey, we want to shoot you, you're not a PGO or anything, are you?' it seems to me now to be a bit blatant if from scum. Maybe just moronic. However, elemwnts of mutant's later defence worry me a bit.