Mini Normal 1963 - List Mod Mafia Game Over

[wavemode]

If you're town and genuinely think you would have been killed, you just cost us a vig at mylo

Don't be this stupid and then act surprised I guess?

"if you're town" ?? Hypothetically if you were to recognize I'm town, you'd also have to recognize that I have a FUCKING GUILTY. What is worth more than that at this stage? I'm stupid for successfully outing one of the (probably) two scum remaining?

[Flubbernugget]

You'd have a FUCKING GUILTY

***IF***

you're town.

The only way you would be town right now is if you're incredibly stupid. I don't think you're stupid, but you're welcome to argue to me otherwise.

[Flubbernugget]

The idea that a single investigation is more valuable than properly working with the town through massclaim is what being crackbrained actually looks like

I mean . . . .Serg was hoping to do the same thing yesterday.

If you're town and genuinely think you would have been killed, you just cost us a vig at mylo

And that vig was suspected to be a maybe!SK, and decided to shoot a guy who was townread instead of the guy who quickhammered, so yeah.

Plenty of people have done idiotic things this game, so wave not claiming yesterday doesn't raise that many red-flags for me right now tbh.

The player that comes off as less competent than wavemode came to their senses sooner than wavemode. That doesn't tell you something?

Wave openly admitted that scum needed to kill chip, and is still arguing that scum would have killed him instead. You're arguing things for wave that he didn't believe in.

[wavemode]

You'd have a FUCKING GUILTY

***IF***

you're town.

The only way you would be town right now is if you're incredibly stupid. I don't think you're stupid, but you're welcome to argue to me otherwise.

I'm thoroughly convinced you don't even understand the words you yourself write. Like sweet jesus, you say I'm only town if I'm stupid, but if I'm town.... I have a guilty! So how is that stupid?? You still have not explained what is "incredibly stupid" about anything I've done, except that I didn't claim yesterday, even though that would have gotten me killed and I wouldn't have gotten a guilty!

[Flubbernugget]

You keep doing this gaslighting thing where you're obtusely arguing from the premise that you're town. Stop doing that.

[implosion]

I saw wave's claim at work and I've tossed it around and I think I have an idea of the setup. I still think the setup without wave's role and with scum having a limited doctor would be likely fairly balanced. I think I believe wave's claim, on the premise that I'm not entirely sure what it buys him as scum. I feel like if wave is scum here he's perfectly happy to sit back and push me since I'm at the top of skitter's list. If he's scum with Seph then I see no reason to make such a bold play here, and honestly I'd just be impressed that it was made at all. If he's scum with Flub here, then I mean I guess that's possible but again I don't see why he goes out of his way to make such a risky move.

The way this makes the most sense by far is if scum is Seph+Flub. This implies Seph is a scum PR and Flub is a scum doctor of some sort; this makes a ton of sense if you think about the setup implications behind it. If wave's claim is real, then it's actually a fairly strong role for the reason he stated: it can completely clear vanilla townies in conjunction with the gunsmith, in addition to just having utility on its own. At that point, it makes sense to give the scumteam roles that would be immune from each investigative: TIAM was essentially immune to the vanilla cop, and Flubber is essentially immune to the gunsmith, while Seph is vulnerable to both. I'd guess Seph is something like a scum rolecop (maybe limited? maybe even-night? maybe some other role entirely, just likely something that adds some power and scum wouldn't want to claim) and Flubber is a limited doctor of some kind (likely 1-shot). There's quite a good chance I'm entirely wrong about the details here but the setup makes a ton of sense from this angle, with two roles that can work in conjunction to clear people, but separately each have a false negative.

So we should lynch Seph today. And then if he flips scum I'll case Flubber tomorrow. I can put effort into casing Flub today as well. But I really do not see wave's claim coming from scum. I just don't see scum making a play of changing their claim in a game where we lynched scum for quickhammering.

[wavemode]

Wave openly admitted that scum needed to kill chip, and is still arguing that scum would have killed him instead. You're arguing things for wave that he didn't believe in.

This... this is just... like I don't even know how to respond directly to this, it's so completely retarded that I'm having trouble telling whether it's even English

Alright, it's whatever at this point. This is probably just a scumclaim from flubber and he doesn't care since if they lynch me the game ends in their favor so I probably shouldn't be getting so worked up over this

I will just take a step back from the nitty gritty of the thing and say in general, I was pretty sure chip was an sk so I wanted him dead. I think I wasn't alone in that sentiment

[Flubbernugget]

Town doesn't backtrack on their words like this with a facade of insults to cover it up.

[implosion]

If you're scum, that's pretty much where you have to go though, since neither me nor Serg are getting lynched anytime soon, and you're pushing Seph. Assuming a 3-man scum team, your only two other options are wave and flubber.

How do you now feel about Flubber/seph?

I mean, I'm town and it's pretty much where I have to go because I know that I'm town and I now strongly suspect wave is.

How does theory hold up given wave's claim? Namely, if we flip Seph and he's a scum PR, what does this say about Flubber and wave and yourself, given that Serg is gunsmith and I'm townread?

I think I just answered this.

That theory was based on the assumption that no town players were lying. With an additional town PR i'd fully expect an additional scum PR. The setup can also make sense in a vacuum if wave is fakeclaiming scum and flubber is a limited doctor, or if wave + seph are scum and one of them is a power role (wave telling the truth about his role for instance) but I heavily doubt both of those scenarios.

What do you think about this? What do you think the significance of Two calling Flubber town is here?

My first impression is that it actually might be evidence in favor of Flubber-town. But not strongly so. I can see Two doing this to scum-Flubber just for the sake of doing something different. Two strikes me as the kind of player who would sort of take arbitrary stances as scum early on for the sake of them being arbitrary and hard to read.

It's also odd that the two of you have mutually had strong townreads on each other throughout the game. I'm not sure why he has you as strong-town here tbh.

I think he was pocketing both of us, actually. I might look at his ISO with that possibility in mind a bit more later.

[wavemode]

Flubber I actually don't think it's productive for me to have this discussion with you because you don't seem to understand the value of a guilty. You don't understand that scum will kill people who are on the verge of getting a guilty on them, and that town will do things that are out of the ordinary if they feel it will keep them alive and net them a guilty. Maybe you're scum, maybe you're high, who knows at this point. But the more you argue from this bizarre perspective that I should have claimed yesterday, or that the scumteam maybe wouldn't have wanted to kill me, or any of these other nonsensical arguments you keep trying to make, the more you're convincing me that this is actually just a fruitless discussion. You've made up your mind and, frankly, I can live with that at this stage.

[Sephiroth]

Why does he need to back off implosion here? He actually isn't backing off implosion; he's said yesterday he thought it was you/implosion.

This is in direct response to

If you noticed I started to back off my scumlean of implosion after night 1 and I more just wanted to understand some of his motivations. He made some surprising statements the morning of day 2 but I could see where his head was at so I didn't pursue it further.

Also, I'd agree with you on the even/odd night thing, except I've played in a mini normal recently (1946) where all the PRs except one were full-night. IE loyal cop, miller, jailkeeper, were full night, as was the scum loud fruit vendor. There was *also* an odd-night tracker, presumably odd-night so a convo like this would happen. I was scum that game and I was actually worried that the JK was lying and was even-night bp or something so that it would be more balanced on the even/odd night thing, but that wasn't a thing.

Fair enough. Its still unusual though.

- The breadcrumb is weak sauce. I think town with PR here would be damn sure to get their full bread crumb and the reason for stopping doesn't really hold any water if you're doing the first letter of every post.

I don't think PRs always crumb. I sure don't.

My point isn't that a PR would always crumb. Its that if they were going to crumb they wouldn't stop after a few letters. And that wavemodes reason for stopping doesn't really make sense.

Skitter literally sets this up for you perfectly by repeatedly saying there had to be another investigative. Skitter in about 3 posts claims there must be an investigative remaining and then bam wave claims that today.

I said I thought that there had to be another investigative in relation to

why I believed Serg

. Game didn't make sense without any useful (ie not wossi) investigative at all. After we all claimed and Serg then claimed gunsmith, I said I had thought someone was lying about being an investigative and that I was expecting it to be someone else (specifically wave), but that I believed Serg because an investigative had to exist.

I was *not* expecting another claim after Serg.

Also wave's crumbs (1092-1095) came from before I said that (1106) and before Serg claimed (1100).

I guess I misread you. I haven't really reread as planned but when someone tells you they have a result on you that doesn't make any sense you get pretty confident they're not town.

I didn't say that you 'only amplified or latched on to [my] pushes'?

I felt that the implication was that I was just following you around which I don't think was the case at any point in the game.

And I don't think it's a misrep to say that you amplified my Mulch push.

I guess I misunderstood amplified? It seems to me that you were trying to say I just was trying to support and go along with what you were doing. I think the Mulch wagon made perfect sense and you weren't the only one to mistrust Mulch upon his entrance. I guess I just don't agree that both of us supporting the Mulch wagon = me pocketing you.

(ie posts like 612).

I don't see what's pockety about this. His reads completely lined up with yours, and I gave a wise ass response

This is everything you said in 'that post' (105) about TIAM. You call it 'manufactured' and 'sketchy'. You don't say anything there about wanting to read his games, so I'm not sure why you're saying I said things that weren't true about this post. Like I'm not sure what the 'not true' things I said were here.

(Like I'm always going to go back and check when people say things like that and I remember them differently).

I'm an idiot. I meant to say that about 175. Thats also why I am defending the post, saying that I did follow up on the post by reading TIAM's game. I got confused about when you meant I ignored TIAM's response. "I disagree" is how he responded to 175.

well crafted fake claim

but wave screwed up and chose a detail that doesn't match the setup.

Well . . . is it well-crafted or not?

It was well crafted until he screwed up and added the odd night. It uses a townie's unwillingness to lie about their role against them and ends the game if he pulls it off. But he shouldn't have added the bit about being odd night.

Again, this was in response to implosion saying 'maybe TIAM was nulltown because Seph felt he had too many major scumreads at that point', and I was pointing to that readslist to show that you *didn't* have that many major scumreads at that point. You only had the one. So that wouldn't be a good explanation for why TIAM was nulltown there when he had been scum the day before. (The fact that I forgot to include Lalendra doesn't actually negate this point).

Multiple people told me I was wrong about TIAM's meta, and reading him confirmed that he acts fairly randomly. A lot of things are better explained after reading town TIAM.

LIke I kinda feel like me/implosion are raising some legitimate points and that you're focusing on details to debunk them, when the details aren't actually that relevant to the points that I'm raising.

Do you want to clarify which points I'm neglecting to address then? I feel like the points I raised have been relevant, though I did conflate your bit about 105 with your bit about 175.

[Flubbernugget]

I think I believe wave's claim, on the premise that I'm not entirely sure what it buys him as scum.

A successful fake guilty literally buys wavemode the game.

This is a bold faced lie.

[wavemode]

It's "bald-faced lie"*

[Flubbernugget]

The opinion that town getting a guilty on scum in mylo of all places vs killing scum OR lowering the mislynch pool is stupid.

I'm not letting wave repeat himself until someone listens.

[Flubbernugget]

It's "bald-faced lie"*

i think you're on the wrong trying of thought here

[wavemode]

Wossi - Town FBI Agent - Killed Night 1

[Flubbernugget]

I mean, if the scumteam know what's good for them they should shoot Chip regardless of his alignment.

[wavemode]

Wossi - Town FBI Agent - Killed Night 1

[Flubbernugget]

mine is bigger

[wavemode]

Mine carries more meaning

Keeping an SK alive in mylo is an eventual SK win no matter how you slice it

[Flubbernugget]

THAT'S WHY NOT CLAIMING YESTERDAY WAS EITHER SCUM MOTIVATED OR FUCKING STUPID.

[wavemode]

lol I knew you would say that shit

Nothing stops them from killing me then killing chip later. But they did need to kill him at some point, I do concede

[Sephiroth]

I mean, semantically you're right, but you said you would prefer if you were the one investigated. It would be pretty amusing for you to sit there and argue that 1159 is not asking to be investigated.

You're the one arguing semantics at this point. All I'm arguing is what did and didn't happen. You can use whatever definition of "ask" helps you sleep at night buddy

How come in your first response you say there is an obvious reason to ask to be investigated but now your response is 'that never happened'?

Uhhh because both are true? There is an obvious reason to ask, but I never did. Or hey, maybe by your definition of "ask" I did "ask." But I'm not sure what that changes, maybe you could enlighten me to your actual point?

The point is you asked to be investigated when you knew that your investigation could lead to a mislynch and loss. This doesn't make sense with your role but it does make sense as a means to garner town cred.

[wavemode]

Are you still forgetting that he already said he wouldn't investigate me?

[skitter30]

The idea that a single investigation is more valuable than properly working with the town through massclaim is what being crackbrained actually looks like

I mean . . . .Serg was hoping to do the same thing yesterday.

If you're town and genuinely think you would have been killed, you just cost us a vig at mylo

And that vig was suspected to be a maybe!SK, and decided to shoot a guy who was townread instead of the guy who quickhammered, so yeah.

Plenty of people have done idiotic things this game, so wave not claiming yesterday doesn't raise that many red-flags for me right now tbh.

The player that comes off as less competent than wavemode came to their senses sooner than wavemode. That doesn't tell you something?

Wave openly admitted that scum needed to kill chip, and is still arguing that scum would have killed him instead. You're arguing things for wave that he didn't believe in.

We had, in order, the guy who got himself lynched for not reading the game, the guy who quickhammered without waiting for a claim (albeit he was scum), the vig that decided to shoot a dude who was widely townread instead of the dude who quickhammered after we knew that there was a decent chance that there might be an SK, two people who started probable MYLO by voting, a guy who was trying to build wagons in MYLO (albeit he had a probable guilty, but he didn't explain that bit to anyone until later), and a guy who lied through mass-claim.

The fact that someone else lied through mass claim honestly doesn't surprise me. Like my standards aren't very high right now.

Although the one thing I don't get from Wave is why he assumed they'd kill him and not Serg last night if he had claimed yesterday.