Mini Normal 1963 - List Mod Mafia Game Over

[skitter30]

K, I'll drop the no-lynch thing.

Flubber, what do you think of Implosion's case on you?

[Sergtacos]

ok imma try and catch up today because this whole weekend imma be busy

[Sergtacos]

Yeah no offense to Serg since I'm sure he's busy with life but he definitely has been extremely low-activity. My post was just something I really wanted to say to him as soon as I caught him online, just in case.

which post?

[Sergtacos]

ok so uh i read some then i skimmed some. Honest to god Wave if you're an odd night cop why the hell did you say "check me."? like what the actual fuck, i couldve checked u and u wouldve ended up "have gun" to me. If you had claimed yesterday, perhaps Chip could've shot someone between Seph, Flubber and implo. if you're an actual odd night cop you would try and figure out a possibility. Chip shoots Seph, I check flubber, and you check implo, problem solved? actually nvm that wouldve been 2n2 and we lose.

although i dont like seph's tone, sounds scummy to me.

idk skitter, i really dont know. what if these two are actually scum and doing this to throw us off in case if we lynch one of em? but then that doesnt seem right because if we lynch wrong then we lose. hm. a scum doctor to me sounds very likely since there was a vig so idk if i should clear flubber or not but your tone to me skitter is TOWN because i know how you play as scum

[skitter30]

Well then that's a 3/3 split, so no lynch

It's reasonably likely they kill implosion or skitter for being on my side so Serg you need to gunsmith Seph tonight. Tomorrow when you find he has a gun you'll see things my way. Alternatively, if you find he doesn't have a gun, feel free to lynch me on the spot

This post. I don't like it.

[Sergtacos]

yeah im down for a wave lynch

[skitter30]

Yeah it's really close between the two of them.

Rambling thoughts:

I'm not sure why he tells you to check him. Like what *did* he gain out of it? Cuz we'd have lynched him if he claimed odd-night VC after you returned 'had a gun'.

I'm actually starting to think that he made that fake-claim to clear himself on the off chance you did check him - impossible to tell if he's actually a VC or a goon.

With town!wave, we have vig/roleblocker/FBI agen(named townie)/gunsmith/VC. I dunno, seems like a lot of power to me.

I like Seph's tone and I really liked him day1-2 and I dunno, I'm better with townreads than scumreads. He was incredibly town early game to me and just seemed really genuine.

I still don't like Wave's townread of wossi tbh.

I have considered the possibility of some elaborate scum theatre and *they're* both scum tbh. Before we end the day we need to decide if you check the person we don't lynch or if you check Implosion.

I still think Flubber is town tbh, but I do want him to respond to Implosion. He could be a scum doc though and we wouldn't be able to tell. But I'm still townreading him.

Implosion I'm still kinda meh on.

And yeah I'm always town here lol, and you know that. That's why your scumread of me was fake.

[skitter30]

Yeah I think I've come around to wave tbh.

What do you think? If wave flips scum do you check Seph or Implosion?

You and me are pretty much the only two kills here. You'll die if they think you can get an incriminating result.

[Sergtacos]

Yeah I think I've come around to wave tbh.

What do you think? If wave flips scum do you check Seph or Implosion?

You and me are pretty much the only two kills here. You'll die if they think you can get an incriminating result.

I will be killed most likely and if i had to check i guess i would check one of the 2 depending on my mood. tomorrow will look like you, flubber, seph and implosion

[skitter30]

Ye. Unless they think you can't get an incriminating result; ie one that will affect the lynch tomorrow. Then I think they kill me and it's you/flubber/seph/implosion. I have more ... presence than you do.

I just read Seph's ISO back-to-front. I'm like 88/12 on him being town right now. If he isn't, he played ridiculously well as scum and honestly deserves to win. He's town.

I still don't like Wave's tr of Wossi.

I don't like Wave's not taking a side in the Mulch thing.

VOTE: Lalendra

(pops in to naked vote the L-2 vote, and appears to be aware that he was casting that vote, and literally hadn't mentioned her at all day2, and hasn't implied a read on her since like early-mid day1)

I don't see how waves naked vote makes any sense, especially given the fact that they had a chance to unvote AFTER the -1 and AFTER Wicked noted it was L-1. Why not unvote, or ask for a claim? Why are you sitting there saying that you think TIAM is scummy and putting a player at -1 with no stated reasoning? Like wave, you literally saw wicked vote for tiam with a post full of reasoning, how did you not move your vote there or at least unvote when it became clear there was a chance of a competing wagon?

ick

(aside: if it's implosion/wave/two, the whole scumteam was on the lalendra lynch which is kinda weird tbh).

Does defend Two yesterday.

Lied through mass-claim, has little to substantiate his claim, and asked the gunsmith to check him before he claimed ...

Notwithstanding Chip's alignment, we likely have to lynch scum today, not SK

I'd be willing to vote Serg or Seph

If we lynch correct and the game is still on, Chip should shoot TwoInAMillion tonight

This post is quite bad from the perspective that he's pushing a lynch in Serg/Seph but telling Chip to shoot Two and not lynch him instead. Especially if a scum doc is a thing ....

Oh fuck I just put it all together. We're lynching Wave. There's a scum doc.

Wave, do you or do you not believe TIAMs claim? I'm struggling to understand how you can believe TIAM is backup RB but simultaneously think its a good idea for the vig to shoot him if we hit scum today.

Then you're naive about good vig play. It's not about my personal feelings, it's about who most people want dead. Get rid of them at night so we don't have to debate about it

I'm not scum, so no.

I have a provable power so lynching me is dumb.

These last three posts explain why Two had the kinda random fake-claim of roleblocker; it had been low-key niggling at me that a) backup-roleblocker doesn't seem necessarily proveable and b) backup-roleblocker is a really random thing to claim if you're trying to claim your way out of a lynch.

I think the plan was to lynch outside of Two and have the vig/SK shoot at Two and have the scum doc heal him, but claim today that he had blocked Chip and proven his role and survived.

This also explains why scum!wave doesn't care about tying himself to Two here - if he could get Seph/Serg lynched yesterday, Two wouldn't be dead cuz he'd be healed.

Actually, I think they just win overnight because we mislynched and they knew where the vig shot would go so they could heal it. Mislynch yesterday is 4-3, and a kill overnight with the vig shot healed means we're 3-3 today and they win.

Holy shit that's a good plan for whoever came up with it, it explains like everything.

Well, except the VC stuff.

[skitter30]

Ye we're lynching wave.

[skitter30]

Flubber isn't scum with wave based on today's interactions. There's literally no reason for scum!flubber and scum!wave to have that argument in that gamestate- namely with me/implosion/wave wanting to vote Seph, there's no reason for Flubber to start a whole thing there. He could just side with me and town!implosion and win the game by voting Seph.

So two/wave/implosion.

[skitter30]

Now that I'm a laptop:

(note to self: if two = scum roleblocker implosion's post at the top of this page is super sketchy

refers to

Could still be scum doctor, but doctor + roleblocker would be quite a lot of power for scum to have here,

This line, in conjunction with the fact that implosion never really talks about the possibility of two fake-claiming, kinda implies that he *knows* that Two isn't fake-claiming (at least the roleblocker bit). I dunno if I'm wording this right to get my point across, but he just kinda takes it as a given that scum!Two isn't lying about his role. Like he starts off with the assumption that scum!roleblocker is a thing but doesn't consider the possibility that two may be lying, and then draws the conclusion that scum!doctor is probably too much if scum also have a roleblocker,

but doesn't consider the case where scum doesn't have a roleblocker

. It sounds like he kinda knows that Two isn't lying about his role.

I dunno, I hope that made some semblance of sense.

Explains this too, from a slightly different POV.

Namely, it's not that he knows that Two isn't lying about his role. It's that he knows Two *is*.

Implosion's betting the game on Two fake-claiming RB.

[skitter30]

Sorry, I'm spamming, but the game finally makes sense now.

[wavemode]

It makes sense because you're reading meaning into where there is none

Like, seriously skitter, evaluate me meta-wise. This is literally never my scum game.

Seriously, why do I throw myself in front of TIAM there? COME ON don't abandon common sense this late into the game. Find me one example in my scum games where this is ever a play I make. You can look at Mini 1950, where I bussed Boon after he made a bad fakeclaim. He even told me not to but I wasn't going to risk him flipping red and then the town associating me with him. And this is BOON we're talking about, probably the last player on this site you'd ever have to worry about creating bad associatives for you. But I still didn't want to put myself in a risky situation. I don't like playing scum and I don't like putting myself in stressful situations when I am scum. And you think in this game I do that for TIAM of all people? Seriously, go read that game and its mafia thread and come back here and say in earnest that this is EVER something I do as scum. Like seriously, what is the gain??

In constrast, my towngame is where if I see the town going in the wrong direction I will speak up. You say you didn't like my townread of Wossi because you weren't seeing the reason at the time. Well, the game where he was day 1 lynched and flipped town has ended so now I can show you that meta. It was Mini Normal 1957 and I literally could not talk about it because of site rules since the game was still ongoing. He did some strange things day 1 in that game and was day 1 lynched but even there, I got the sense he was coming from a town mindset. Yeesh, you act like I was just townreading Wossi to pocket him or get towncred (I mean, do you realize that players on this site have become so meta-aware of that kind of thing that real scum almost never do it? I see people accused of "pocketing" on a regular basis and maybe 1/10 times it is accurate...) Like, find any of my games; I make early townreads on certain kinds of players because I know how to evaluate their mindset, even if they're bad at expressing themselves (which I think you and I can both agree, Wossi is). Seriously, THAT is my towngame. When I see lynchbait going down I try to steer town in the right direction. I don't care if it makes me look scummy and I will fight for my point regardless.

You can even go read Open 694 Friends and Enemies. Transcend was going to be an early wagon but I could see where his mind was at in certain regards, even if I disagreed with some of his points. I took a hard stance on transcend being town very early in that game and it caught me a lot of flak but I didn't give a shit. When I'm town I don't do things because I care about how it looks, I do what I believe in.

Hell, just a couple days ago we finished Open 703 Masons and Mafia. I had an early townread on Gamma Emerald even though his play in that game was atrocious. It was on meta and it was correct, but it still got me really, really scumread, to the point of getting taken to L-2 (even Gamma voted me! lol). But that was how I felt about Gamma and I was going to make it known.

I DID NOT ASK TO BE INVESTIGATED, I SIMPLY SHOWED NO RELUCTANCE TO IT, HYPOTHETICALLY. I HAD LITERALLY JUST HARD DEFENDED SOMEONE WE THEN FOUND OUT WAS LIKELY GUILTIED AND I KNOW HOW THAT LOOKS. I WASN'T ABOUT TO SAY "Hey serg if you don't mind, dont investigate me tonight kthx". IF I CLAIMED VC AT THAT POINT LIKE "heey man I know I have a gun but I'm town I swear!" I WOULD HAVE BEEN LYNCHED ON THE SPOT AFTER TIAM'S FLIP AND THIS GAME WOULD ALREADY BE OVER. BUT HE HAD ALREADY SAID HE WASN'T GOING TO TARGET ME SO IN MY MIND IT WAS A NON-ISSUE AT THE TIME. Like, think about that in serious terms. What's the main thing that would have caused Serg to say "hey wait lemme check wavemode". Maybe, uh, me acting reluctant to be investigated? He said at this point he was certain I was scum. Furthermore, showing reluctance to be investigated at this point would have just been a signal to the scumteam that I was a PR. Or possibly it would have just gotten me lynched. Either way, there was literally no point in doing it. I'm still just completely confused as to what part of this is so difficult to comprehend, or how it somehow proves I'm lying.

DO NOT throw this game away for these inane reasons. Actually go critically evaluate things and I am so obviously town here it is flabbergasting.

[wavemode]

Forgot to mention, Newbie 1833 Literally Mafia, where I was town. I replaced in and instantly had a hard townread on PsykoSavant, even though he was widely scumread. Which was also used against me.

Also forgot to mention another scumgame of mine, Open 697 Tit for Tat, where literally my first serious vote of the game was on my scum partner. And we lynched him!

[wavemode]

I actually just don't know how to make any of this any more plainly obvious. I didn't even want to self-meta because I thought in-game Seph has been scummy enough that this lynch would not be rocket science (which also sort of points to, why should I fakeclaim? We could have gotten up support for a Seph or implosion lynch in time, and if they're town that's all I as scum would need to win the game. Only way this claim makes sense here is if I'm town who has been preparing for this since yesterday, which I have!) YOU'RE the one who went and found a past game where I lied in massclaim, I didn't try to argue that as a point for myself. And then I also remembered, "hey, I also made a crumb in that game that I failed to finish, what a coincidence. Sure hope town uses common sense and sees that this is very obviously my town game."

[Flubbernugget]

I had to make a survivalistic case as scum a few games back. I'll pull it up and compare it to implosion's soon

[wavemode]

So yeah, forgive me if I'm agitated that this is falling apart like this. I don't mind losing as town, it's a learning experience. But like this? When Seph has been acting scummy for two days? When I have a clear guilty I've been angling for since yesterday? When literally every singe thing I've done in this game is 100% consistent with how I play as town, and 100000% INconsistent with how I EVER play as scum? Come ON people, open your eyes!

[Sephiroth]

I think the plan was to lynch outside of Two and have the vig/SK shoot at Two and have the scum doc heal him, but claim today that he had blocked Chip and proven his role and survived.

This also explains why scum!wave doesn't care about tying himself to Two here - if he could get Seph/Serg lynched yesterday, Two wouldn't be dead cuz he'd be healed.

This is

extremely

cheeky and relies on being able to control the vigshot. Wave's posts through roughly 1120-1130 are VERY telling in this context. The whole thing relies on scum team being able to accurately predict where the vigshot is going while simultaneously making sure TIAM is not lynched.

Implosions initial post of the day leaves both options open (not convinced by hammer, thinks explanation is scummy then waffles over that point). I guess my only hold up here is if Implosion and Wave are the scum team, I don't see Implosion coming in and having such a weaksauce first post. I would expect him to go all in on TIAM scum if Wave was going all in on TIAM town. Again to be fair, implosion was a lurker early game and a fence sitter often throughout the rest of the day so a fence-sitty post is consistent while a hardline stance would be in contrast to the rest of his game.

Actually, I think they just win overnight because we mislynched and they knew where the vig shot would go so they could heal it. Mislynch yesterday is 4-3, and a kill overnight with the vig shot healed means we're 3-3 today and they win.

Even if they don't heal the vig shot, the vig shot takes out TIAM and puts us at 3-2, when Wave can still easily use his fakeclaim to win the game if people believe him.

I feel pretty strongly Implosion is the last scum. I don't see why Flubberscum would ever come out against Wave's claim. If wavescum convinces skittertown and implosiontown, its game over. There is no way flubs posting today happens unless hes town. 1347 from implosion feels like desperation time to me.

We could have gotten up support for a Seph or implosion lynch in time, and if they're town that's all I as scum would need to win the game.

I'm pretty sure I've been consistently town read all game and implosion is your partner so you wouldn't be pushing for an implosion lynch. So you would've had the choices of 2 conftown and semi-conf flub. OR me. You keep saying I've been scummy for a while but never really make a case to that effect. The belief that I was widely viewed as scummy is just false and I don't know where youre getting that.

[Sephiroth]

But I still didn't want to put myself in a risky situation. I don't like playing scum and I don't like putting myself in stressful situations when I am scum. And you think in this game I do that for TIAM of all people? Seriously, go read that game and its mafia thread and come back here and say in earnest that this is EVER something I do as scum.

I mean, do you realize that

players on this site have become so meta-aware

of that kind of thing that real scum almost never do it?

It seems to me that your meta makes this the perfect end game move to make since you can make this very argument, but what do I know.

[wavemode]

Exactly, what do you know lmao. Those quotes are talking about two completely different things

[Sephiroth]

I'm just saying, people know your meta and MS is a very meta aware site. The fact that the move goes contrary to your usual meta is what makes it a good move because you can then make the argument that its against your meta.

[Sephiroth]

AKA what you're doing now.

[wavemode]

You keep saying I've been scummy for a while but never really make a case to that effect.

See, this is the difference between you and me, Seph. I actually know my role and that you're scum. I spent plenty of time yesterday casing you as scum (so I'm not sure why you're now saying I haven't...), but today all I present are the facts, which is that you claimed vanilla townie but I got a result of not vanilla on you.

Like, I know you aren't town so this is hard to wrap your head around, but what sense would it actually make for me to point to one of your posts and go "hmm I don't like Seph's tone here, it's scummy" or some shit like that. What would it prove? What would it change, for me to start PbPA'ing you and get into a war of words as you try to pick apart my points? If I know for a fact that you're scum, that's all I need lol. Anything else is just gravy.

I'm just saying, people know your meta and MS is a very meta aware site. The fact that the move goes contrary to your usual meta is what makes it a good move because you can then make the argument that its against your meta.

"the move" lmao. You mean all of my play throughout this entire game? And by "the argument", you mean self-meta arguments that I literally did not mention until today after skitter started digging into them herself (and found, on her own, games where my play identically matches my play here), because I considered them irrelevant? (Because, as I say again, I know for a fact you're scum. My meta should have been irrelevant to that - ideally, all I should need to present are the facts.)

Also, "people know your meta" is a pretty funny comment because, who in this game even knows my meta? I suppose one might say Flubber, but he couldn't even remember that I was town way back in Open 694, much less the nuances of how I played. skitter also could not remember all that much about the Mini 1931 we were in. And as for everyone else, I mostly haven't played with them. I really haven't been on this site for all that long. So that approach wouldn't even make sense here, yet you're painting it as if it's some optimal strategy for me this game.