Site Meta Thread

[mhsmith0]

What if everyone has different scumreads they don't want to change?

Well that's when you start to get into the realm of trying to understand what other people are thinking, why they're thinking it, and what about their argument is either strong (so you should change your own mind) or weak (so you can get them to change their minds). Sometimes people are too lazy to engage, of course, and when that happens life gets a lot less pleasant, although I'd write at least some of that into "encouraging a productive and protown thread environment", at least where that's possible to achieve.

[Mulch]

The reason towns struggle:

1) Overconfidence in reads

2) People think non scummy things are scummy

Im adding to this:

2b) People scumread questions

[Lycanfire]

The reason towns struggle:

1) Overconfidence in reads

2) People think non scummy things are scummy

Im adding to this:

2b) People scumread questions

Ask better questions

[Alisaes French Maid]

Form better reads.

[Alisaes French Maid]

I'll take stupid questions any day of the week because that's readable content.

[mhsmith0]

Eh not really

Optimal town play

- Don’t lurk

I'd say "don't lurk the game away". Lurking on and off is probably fine, there are plenty of times when I think that letting something play out and just watching to see where it goes, or sitting back just because I don't have anything useful to say, is generally good play.

- Don’t gambit

I'd say "don't make stupid gambits" with a side of "know who you're gambiting around". Some people have zero tolerance for bullshit and will policy lynch gambiters, other times you may be in a board where an actual PR will CC your gambit and then that's really bad too. Gambiting is a skill, which I think people tend to overrate their ability in.

- Don’t spam or shit post

As with lurking, I'd say "don't shitpost the game away or spam so much the thread is unbearable". Occassional spam/shitposting is fine. Moderation is the key.

- Don’t antagonize others

I'd say "don't be a massively toxic shitbag". Antagonizing others can be part of the scumhunting process. Being annoying is probably fine. Being BRIEFLY infuriating may be ok. If you're relentlessly asshole-ish, though, yeah that's bad. And sometimes you need to konw when to recognize when you've gone too far and apologize

- Be open and share your thoughts

This is usually a positive. OTOH, if you're TOO open, then it's easy enough for people to manipulate your processes. Here's an example from a recent game that myself ("The Juggernaut" hydra) and Mulch ("GPC" hydra) were scum together in:

Spoiler:

posted on day 3:
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ost1815936

...
Can’t be teamed:

Potato (4): M&K, WN,

GPC

, Mort
M&K (3): Potato, WLJ, Xooh
WLJ (3): WN, M&K, Stinky
Xooh (2): Stinky, M&K
Stinky (2): Xooh, WLJ
WN (2): WLJ, Potato

GPC

(2): Potato, WP
WP (1):

GPC

Mort (1): Potato
Jug (0)
Creepy (0)
MM (0)

# of Players for non-associatives:

Potato: 10
WLJ: 8
Xooh: 8
Ninja: 8

Jug

: 8

GPC

: 8
M&K: 7

Creepy

: 7
Stinky: 6
WP: 5
Mort: 4

MM

: 4

Can’t be teamed with most:

Xooh: Stinky: 20
Stinky: Xooh: 20
Potato: M&K: 15
M&K: Potato: 15
WN: Potato, WLJ: 12
WLJ: WN: 11

GPC

: Potato: 9
WP:

GPC

: 8
Mort: Potato: 8

Jug

: Xooh: 4

Creepy

:

Jug

: 3

MM

:

Jug

: 3
...

posted on day 4:
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ost1830609

...
Can’t be teamed:

Potato (4): M&K, WN,

GPC

, Mort

GPC

(4): Potato,

Jug

, WN, SG
M&K (2): Potato, Xooh
Xooh (2): SG, M&K,

Jug

SG (2): Xooh,

GPC

WN (2): Potato,

GPC

Jug

(2):

GPC

, Xooh
Mort (1): Potato

MM

(1):

Jug

Creepy

(0):

# of Players for non-associatives:

WN: 9 (All)
Potato: 8 (CJ)

GPC

: 8 (

MM

)
M&K: 8 (Mort)
Xooh: 7 (MM, Mort)

Jug

: 7 (

MM

,

CJ

)

CJ

: 6 (

Jug

, SG, Potato)
SG: 6 (

MM

,

CJ

,

Jug

,)
Mort: 6 (

MM

, Xooh, M&K)

MM

: 5 (Mort, SG, Xooh,

Jug

)

Can’t be teamed with most:

GPC

:

Jug

: 27

Jug

:

GPC

: 27
Xooh: Stinky: 21
SG: Xooh: 21
Potato: M&K: 17
M&K: Potato: 17
WN: Potato: 16
Mort: Potato: 8

MM

:

Jug

: 5

CJ

:

Jug

: 4
...

Part of the reason we engaged in so much theater on EOD 3 was because we knew it'd spam up the non-associatives and make it difficult to ever lynch one given the red flip of the other (and that original read was kind of a big flashing warning light that we needed to work a lot harder to dissasociate from each other while still getting townies mislynched... and you can kind of see from the second version of the list that we did succeed at it, in part because we knew we had to). The lists ALSO gave us something of a guide to planning out who would be relatively optimal to lynch when, and who on the scum team we might NOT want to bus given the town credit it might give to otherwise lynchable townies.

- Talk about your reads

I'd say PRODUCTIVELY talk about your reads, i.e. providing substance instead of just "ok this is my read I'm done". And then go beyond providing substance and start to get into productive engagement, i.e. talking with other people about your reads, and about their reads, and about anything else that is useful to discuss.

- Attempt to game solve

Sure, although "attempt" only goes so far.

- Encourage teamwork

Sure. Although there I'd probably want to think about how you're encouraging teamwork and whether said approach is productive. Are you just cheerleading? Or are you really doing something towards that goal, like breaking up toxic fights between people you think are town, trying to get people to work together on wagons taht you believe in, etc. etc. etc.

[Lycanfire]

On the subject of meta / town losses / examples of good townplay / goalposts

Dear Prof. mhsmith0
What do I do if I get "toneread" as scum in all of my towngames when I am really obvtown and have good reads?

Thanks, Alisae

Tonereads are awful

[Ellibereth]

Eh, they can be useful.

Almost everyone tool is useful in some context.

[Alisaes French Maid]

Tone reading is good if you have meta to actually make sense out of it.
Tone reading without meta is kinda garbo tbh.

Like the entire purpose of a tone read is you need meta to know what there tone is supposed to usually be like but most people just use it as a charisma read. Don't think it's fair to shit on tone reads because of that.

[RadiantCowbells]

A large amount of players on the site at the moment good, "good" and bad all think that when they get mislynched it is due to awful towns and when they get awful reads it is also due to bad towns the latter kinda bothers me more. "I thought the scum player was scum but the town player was so fucking bad I had no choice" is a really awful excuse for losing a game. Yes there are cases of awful towns screwing over individual players but even then there are moments in games when you need to unify the town and lead lynches onto scum by yourself and if you can't do that then you should work on improving your game in that regard.

As a result of this blame everyone else mentality where you can never take blame yourself people never adapt game by game and never improve at mafia which is just shit.

I think the correct angle is to always take the approach that lynches are the fault of whoever voted.

It puts the responsibility in the most useful place for learning to improve imo.

[Lycanfire]

No. All tonereads are bad. If you have tonereads you have a way to provide proof in order to solve a slot.

When I toneread I nitpick on word choice or if the stream of consciousness looks genuine, or scripted. I can go from there and see if I have anything to be used to solve the slot.

I don't faceplant in the thread saying "we can't lynch X because I tr their tone". Lazy ambigous posting like that hurts town.

[Mulch]

The reason towns struggle:

1) Overconfidence in reads

2) People think non scummy things are scummy

This is literally it

Who disagrees with this

[Ellibereth]

No. All tonereads are bad. If you have tonereads you have a way to provide proof in order to solve a slot.

When I toneread I nitpick on word choice or if the stream of consciousness looks genuine, or scripted. I can go from there and see if I have anything to be used to solve the slot.

I don't faceplant in the thread saying "we can't lynch X because I tr their tone". Lazy ambigous posting like that hurts town.

Providing proof isn't necessarily good.
Ambiguous posting isn't necessarily bad.

"If you have tonereads you have a way to provide proof in order to solve a slot. " <- and this in particular isn't true anyway.

[Ellibereth]

The reason towns struggle:

1) Overconfidence in reads

2) People think non scummy things are scummy

This is literally it

Who disagrees with this

Meh.
For number 2 it goes both ways.
If you're scumread when you're town by another town player both players have room for improvement.

[Lycanfire]

No. All tonereads are bad. If you have tonereads you have a way to provide proof in order to solve a slot.

When I toneread I nitpick on word choice or if the stream of consciousness looks genuine, or scripted. I can go from there and see if I have anything to be used to solve the slot.

I don't faceplant in the thread saying "we can't lynch X because I tr their tone". Lazy ambigous posting like that hurts town.

Providing proof isn't necessarily good.
Ambiguous posting isn't necessarily bad.

"If you have tonereads you have a way to provide proof in order to solve a slot. " <- and this in particular isn't true anyway.

This is the lazy type of post found in games that allows wolves to blend in to the nonsense.

[Alisaes French Maid]

I think the correct angle is to always take the approach that lynches are the fault of whoever voted.

It puts the responsibility in the most useful place for learning to improve imo.

When I am mislynched I also think its useful to realize I could have communicated in a better way and I don't think the "I am playing perfectly to my meta" mentality is a good one that seems to be really common in mafia games.

But 100% my main issue is with people who lynch town then go into post game and say "I would have lynched scum but losershittown was just so fucking awful I couldn't MS.net is bad" it's either the fault of the lynched players and the people who voted or just the fault of the people who voted. It's never the fault of the lynched player alone but I don't think they are immune to fault.

[Ellibereth]

Or you could be better at reading said type of posting?
And maybe there's something your missing when it comes to tonereading?
And maybe some of your beliefs on what good and bad play are, aren't necessarily true?

Like this absolute confidence you're displaying that your viewpoint is right is exactly what the problem is.

[Ellibereth]

What's so hard about having the attitude

"Damn, I misread them, maybe there's something I missed that could have helped me read them better. Maybe the metrics I'm using for scum and town are off somehow?"

vs.

"It's not my fault I misread them, they were playing like scum."

The latter is how things don't progress and it's why a lot of people (again, I'm guilty of this too) have applied the same faulty "tells" over and over and over.

[Alisaes French Maid]

Lycan I just think you refuse to believe that there can be multiple metrics to game solving that you don't understand which is kinda just ignorant tbh.
I can't read certain kinds AtE and have never been able to figure out what I am doing wrong but that doesn't mean other people can't read it effectively.

[LlamaFluff]

I mean I understand the qualms of the whole geriatric crew and am an absolute supporter of that sort of game being a consistent thing.

But blaming losses hyperposters and "bullshit" in a nongeriatric game because you consequently can't keep up is silly. Someone could argue just as easily the blame lies on the person that's unable to keep up. It doesn't just go in one direction.

It doesn't fully work both ways though.

If half of the game is making twenty posts a day (good content or nothing), and the other half cant reach that (work, school, etc) the people posting have a decision to make

1) Post less in order to allow the rest of the game to contribute
2) Continue posting while knowing that they are impacting the ability of players to contribute to the game.

You can argue that by intentionally hyper posting knowing that a portion of the game is unable to be effective due to it is in itself an anti-town action as you immediately cripple the amount of information that you get from a few players by your own choice. There is a difference between a lurker and a player who only has a few hours a day to play. Its a bit of hyperbole, but it would be like having a PR which allows you to limit the amount of posts someone could make to a detrimental point, and then arguing that its something that helps the town to use it on a random player.

I don't buy that in order to play a game on this site you have to be nearly constantly online. It should be a site where you can spend a few hours after work, or between classes, or things like that and be able to keep up with the game.

[Lycanfire]

I should have confidence on a subject I know well.

It's called taking a stand on something. Opposed to being unclear about my motives.

My viewpoint is "this concept can lead you to better evidence but offer nothing worthwhile to yourself or town". If you dispute that by genuinely believing that solving slots isn't in your interest, or that vague reads on players is okay, then keep these posts in mind the next time you find yourself in a situation like this in a game.

[LlamaFluff]

What's so hard about having the attitude

"Damn, I misread them, maybe there's something I missed that could have helped me read them better. Maybe the metrics I'm using for scum and town are off somehow?"

vs.

"It's not my fault I misread them, they were playing like scum."

The latter is how things don't progress and it's why a lot of people (again, I'm guilty of this too) have applied the same faulty "tells" over and over and over.

This is pretty true. Also add on

"They were lucky that tell worked"

vs

"That is not a tell"

[Mulch]

Oh yeah


People don’t use meta

People are OPPOSED to meta


That’s a huge reason why towns lose here

No joke
It really is

[mhsmith0]

On the subject of meta / town losses / examples of good townplay / goalposts

Dear Prof. mhsmith0
What do I do if I get "toneread" as scum in all of my towngames when I am really obvtown and have good reads?

Thanks, Alisae

Tonereads are awful

Tonereads can be fine... if you're good at it. I'd tend to agree that some level of explanation is generally requisite, and having been in the spot across multiple games of beating my head against the wall to get someone to explain how the bloody hell they found something "genuine", I have enormous sympathy for wanting SOMETHING beyond "well I say so" for explanations. FWIW, some additional detail on the tone stuff:

me (eventually) correctly tone-reading pie:

Spoiler:

Subject: New Year's Eve Masquerade Ball - [Game Over]

So I finally got around to meta'ing pie.

Summer waltz (last iteration of this setup - pie!town)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

Perfect Cherry Blossom (pie!wolf)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

Badass women (pie!wolf)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

Micro 488 (pie!town)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

Not 100% (sample size of 2 of each alignment), but I get a sense that her town game is more emotional, more frustrated, more intense, compared to her scum game, where she sounds reasonable, asks decent questions, has ok tone, but basically plays a much more toned-down game, largely devoid of emotion and intensity.

So basically she's a lot like Titus. Which I suppose would have been useful to know about 100 pages ago.

UNVOTE:

PS Go look at mini 1821 and search for "fuck". It shows up a bunch, but in almost every case it's, for a lack of a better word, dry.

one example:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p8195256
reads semi-emotional at first glance, but no emotional follow-up at all; her next post doens't touch kraska, and the following one is back to blah tone-wise

another:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p8253440
double-swear, theoretically there's emotion, but you really look at it and it's actually a dry post

Micro 640, similar story
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p8287695
three fuck post, still dry as hell


Summer Waltz

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p8129721
not dry, showing actual contempt for whoever she's talking to

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p8134603
swears in the context of an engagement in a read

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p8135991
very very very obviously a post with emotion

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p8136093
frustraytion post

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p8149322
a post that would read as fake by a decent # of people (not really a hard ATE post for most to fake), but I don't see similar examples in her scum game

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p8151444
obvious contempt in post
etc (though obviously there are counter examples of some dry posts too)

Micro 488
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p6952052
post with emotion

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p6952055
obvious emotion and contempt

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p6952466
frustration post

etc

me back and forth with scout trying desperately to get him to explain himself, before eventually realizing that the entire effort was futile:

Spoiler:

Subject: New Year's Eve Masquerade Ball - [Game Over]

How can you describe a townie tone? It's there or it isn't.

Huh? What in the world is your understanding of "townie tone"? To me, townie tone can be things like:

- this person is super relaxed and free-flowing
- this person is arguing a point in a way that makes me think they're both emotionally and intellectually engaged in what they're doing
- this person has expressed through their posting emotions like suspicion, pride, paranoia etc, and that is consistent with what I'd expect from what they've been saying and doing if they were a villager
etc.

or to slice out another one of my IC points (quoting an exceptionally good tone-reader, and one of the very best players I've ever played with):

Nested Spoiler tag:

On engagement, effort, emotion and tone

Spiff was doing stuff that you just don't see wolves actually do -- claiming a PR with still 24 hours remaining on d1 and openly antagonizing the people pushing him the hardest, rather than just slink away and wait for a shiny object to appear that drags the votes away from him

…

Cron was working super hard at developing his reads and he had the proper emotional investment in what he was doing. I don't feel like pulling up his posts to cite specific examples, so let's just talk again about the Trundle thing. He soulreads a guy as a wolf based on one post and has four reasons for it, and he's super proud of himself and patting himself on the back for it. Wolves aren't trying that hard to develop quick reads and they tend to struggle to come up with that level of insight and they aren't good at getting the subtle emotions right. And his whole day was full of things like that. Cron has played several wolf games on this site and his posting was bland and forgettable each time.

…

I don't have time to adequately respond to that post but one thing I can say quickly is that when I'm talking about emotions, I'm specifically excluding anger. It's the easiest emotion to fake and it's one that is often not alignment-indicative even when it is genuine, unless it can be traced to an origin in something distinctly villagery.

Emotions like pride, paranoia, surprise, suspicion, etc, are more difficult to fake. Wolves often fail to even identify spots in which emotion should be present in their posting, and their efforts at actually displaying more complex emotions are often quite clumsy, for example by stating their supposed feelings rather than displaying them.

But in the case of Cron, a lot of what was clearing for him was just the sheer depth and breadth of his reads and interactions. It's just hard to fake that much content so quickly and make it sound good. And few wolves are ever going to stalk other players' online statuses in order to catch lurkers.

...

End Nested Spoiler Tag

So when you say "townie tone" and then just dump off an empty "how can I describe it, it's there or it isn't", I have no idea at all what you're talking about. I almost think you're just saying that kagami was just saying a bunch of reasonable-sounding things without being weird about it (admittedly just a guess since you can't or won't explain your read), which is, just so you know, just about the easiest thing in the world for a wolf to fake.

If pie was really convinced you were scum, why wouldnt she leave when you were the one saying leaving is antitown?

This question doesn't make sense (possibly just because it was poorly worded). Let me try:

1) If pie was scum, why wouldn't she leave if she knew I was town and I'd said (possibly convincing her) that leaving was antitown
2) If pie was town thinking I was scum, why wouldn't she leave, given that I was saying it was anti-town?

The first is easy enough to answer, because it would presume that she could survive my pressure at least long enough to achieve another mislynch or two (correct in that hypothetical given that the day ended with shadow-maria dying).

The second would presume, I guess, that she thought that I, as scum, would be lying about theory? Or that she'd disagree with it? Given that one of the points I was practically screaming about was that if she really was town who believed I was scum, she should be voting me (and, fwiw, it absolutely seemed to me at the time like she was making excuses as to why she wasn't voting me [and if dunn is town, lol him forever for his "I bet smith is just trying to pretend to suspect pie here for the town credit" bit] ). So I guess the question is, what do you think of her discussion of what she was doing? Why do you feel it's non-credible? I've come to a read on her based on our back and forth, and am fairly comfortable that it's probably the correct one.

Subject: New Year's Eve Masquerade Ball - [Game Over]

So when you say "townie tone" and then just dump off an empty "how can I describe it, it's there or it isn't", I have no idea at all what you're talking about. I almost think you're just saying that kagami was just saying a bunch of reasonable-sounding things without being weird about it (admittedly just a guess since you can't or won't explain your read), which is, just so you know, just about the easiest thing in the world for a wolf to fake.

I can't explain tone, just like I can't explain gut. It doesn't have anything to do with the content, it's something else. If you have a problem with that, too bad. I don't care.

1) If pie was scum, why wouldn't she leave if she knew I was town and I'd said (possibly convincing her) that leaving was antitown
2) If pie was town thinking I was scum, why wouldn't she leave, given that I was saying it was anti-town?

Are you asking questions to look busy or something? The more questions you ask, the less they make sense.
1) she wouldn't leave because it's inherently against her wincon.
2) that's exactly the point made by kagami.

wrt tone, you can't point to specific posts that substantiate your tone read, and you can't actually even talk through what you mean, and you seem to have zero motivation to try. So when a while back ago I called you scum or intellectually lazy town, guess what, it looks like I was right. If you want to be taken seriously, try thinking through what you mean and why you're saying it. I get that this is hard, but this isn't your first rodeo and you shouldn't be struggling to explain what you mean about something relatively straightforward like this. Of course that only applies if you're town; I guess if you're scum keep doing it since it's apparently working.

Also, are you just skimming my posts? Because I clarified what I thought your questions MIGHT mean, and then actually answered them from either interpretation. Like, this is really really obviously what just happened. Why aren't you actually looking at what I said?

Subject: New Year's Eve Masquerade Ball - [Game Over]

I said what I have to say about tone. If you can't live withit, feel free to ignore it. I know what I'm saying, why I'm saying it. I just can't explain it. Explain gut? It's like that for me. I also don't think I have a responsibility to clarify things I can't clarify, especially not to people that I want dead.

If you ask me a question, please do so clearly. I lose interest in walls with a bunch of rethorical questions pretty fast.

Well your reason for TRing kagami is really shitty if you can't even be bothered to try and understand and explain it. "It's just gut" - what a perfect way to say something that no one can engage with in any kind of substantive or useful manner.

And lo and behold, I lose interest with people who can't be bothered to read what I actually have to say pretty fast, especially when they twist it into "lol smith asking dumb questions". Especially since a few paragraph response is hardly what I'd consider a wall.

Subject: New Year's Eve Masquerade Ball - [Game Over]

PS Lessons in Tone Reading for Dummies:

Smith just made a few posts that shows he's gotten frustrated with scout's continued refusal to be transparent or useful. This is:

1) Because Smith is town and is actually frustrated with scout
2) Because Smith is a wolf and is simply trying to imitate what he'd do as town (which would probably come across as fake somehow btw)
3) Because Smith is a wolf and is fake interacting with his teammate
4) Because Smith is a wolf and some other explanation

One of these answers is correct. Most of you won't know for sure until after I'd flip, but the answer is actually obvious. Unless you think I'm really good at faking villagery tone as a wolf (which is news to anyone who's seen me wolf). Note how that is an ACTUAL substantiated tone read, explained and everything (blah blah blah wifom self defense blah blah blah). Amazing how that actually works.

Subject: New Year's Eve Masquerade Ball - [Game Over]

Although I said more than just tone?

Okay, you wrote a paragraph. You asked quite a few questions. Which ones are important for me to answer?

Also note that I will sleep now, so you won't get a reply within 3 minutes.

Acutally in 4501 I asked ONE question. For you to substantiate your tonal read (I suppose I also asked you to substantiate in general what you think townie tone is, although that's mainly a sub-question). The two listed "questions" (#s 1 and 2) were very obviously rhetorical questions designed to substantiate my response to your (poorly worded) question. they weren't looking for answers from you, they were themselves part of an answer TO YOU.

PS in 4506 I asked why you weren't reading what I said to which you basically responded "because I'm lazy". So you don't need to answer that one again.

Subject: New Year's Eve Masquerade Ball - [Game Over]

But frustration is something different from tone, imo.
Frustration and anger can be easily faked. Genuineness not.

Anger is easy to fake. Frustration less so but it's doable. And tone is emotion, that's kind of the whole point. Anger, surprise, arrogance, frustration, paranoia, those are all emotions that come through as part of tone. If you want to tonal read someone, read their emotions, see if what they're feeling is consistent with what they ought to be feeling in a situation as a villager.

"Genuineness" on the other hand - now that's more of a buzzword than anything substantiated. Genuine what exactly? Genuine belief in the case being pushed? Genuine confidence in being correct? Genuine nervousness about being wrong? "Genuine" can mean all sorts of things, "genuine" without any explanation or clarify is itself empty.

Subject: New Year's Eve Masquerade Ball - [Game Over]

Frustration is a shade of anger. It's not hard to fake - just get into pointless arguments and it comes for free. Like these.

Genuineness = believing in what you are doing
It's hard to put under words how exactly you can see that, which is what I'm telling you.

Because you're bad at reading tone? Here, take an example
http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/sea ... hid=680528
here, Titus (town) spent most of the game tunnelling me (town), and was largely mocked and ignored for her efforts. She kept at it, because she believed in it, and it was really obvious that she believed in it, and that's why she was town. That's an easy example of "genuine" - she was under pressure from people who thought she was full of it (including absorbing votes at one point IIRC, as well as having soah basically light into her for how badly she was playing, including him eventually flat-out writing her off as "bad town"), and stuck to her guns in a pretty honest way instead of slinking off to an easier target. That was ACTUALLY genuine, and it came across pretty clearly. Here you say "genuine" but can't describe why you see it and seem to have no real interest in the kind of self-reflection that would actually lead to a better understanding and the ability to be convincing about your read. So if you're town, why don't you actually try? It can't be THAT hard, can it?

Subject: New Year's Eve Masquerade Ball - [Game Over]

Pedit: contrary, i mostly read on tone

this is also hilarious given our back and forth wrt kagami. I get kind of nervous that this is just bad posting that's pocketing me by how bad it is, but I just feel like at some point, especially with day chat, if he was scum he probably would have had SOMETHING seemingly useful to say instead of just "nope nope how dare you ask for me to explain this thing that I don't want to explain"

(this one was in postgame referencing what SAD [scum] said in lovers chat when scout [town] threatened to suicide and take them both down):
Subject: New Year's Eve Masquerade Ball - [Game Over]

Yeah, if that's what you want I'm down. Don't feel bad about it, I trust in your decision if you think thats what's best for town. And then we can enjoy our time in the dead PT goading people during lylo hehe.

Let's see...

SAD makes a post showing:
1) Literally zero paranoia about wolf!scout running some kind of scam
2) Insanely friendly/buddying response for what could conceivably be a near game-ending fuckup

Scout decides that this is somehow super townie, for reasons that are known only to himself, because gut/tonal reads can't be explained.

Except, of course, that they CAN be explained. And part of playing mafia effectively is understanding what it is you're seeing and why you're seeing it, and being able to explain it in a way that others can understand. And this is an incredibly easy example of what I'm talking about. Tonal reads that have substance and thought behind them can be explained, and if you want to be an effective tone reader you pretty much HAVE to learn how to do this.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like in the end sometimes it's the person who got lyncheds fault but every time you mislynch someone you should be stopping and thinking about why that was and trying to learn better for next time.
I find there's a lot of people willing to just write off the fact that they're mislynching people left right and center and who barely even try to learn from it or improve and that's how your ability stagnates.

You can blame other people for what went wrong but in the end the only person you can change is you.

And tonereads are fine. There's not 1 way of playing mafia Lycanfire