Open 707 - JK9++ [Endgame]

[momo]

Impede is building a case

Who here thinks red vs jay is bussing

[momo]

Like both of them know they are caught scum so they bus so that whoever is lynched first has been effectively distanced from the other one

[Mathdino]

Would that even be a viable strategy? They HAVE to know that I'd just try to lynch both of them regardless of their flips.

[sheepsaysmeep]

anything is possible

[Creature]

Also, him calling us Village Idiots ≠ he thinks we're Town. It means he's dismissing us as actual players and is also trying to make it so you just leave him alone.

Nah, I don't really mean you're an idiot, just doing stuff players (for some reason) think are scummy.

[Creature]

Like both of them know they are caught scum so they bus so that whoever is lynched first has been effectively distanced from the other one

I feel like the mistake you're commiting is thinking the game is solved.

[JaydragonKing]

Momo, my entire case has been against Creature, not RedFlavor. How the hell is it bussing between the two of us? He also hasn't even mentioned me in a while, so clearly Im also not his priority.

Mathdino isn't helping the situation anymore, but Now I fucking had an epithiny.

Impede/Creature is the scum pair.

[sheepsaysmeep]

this omgus tho

[Mathdino]

[snip]

Bookmarking this. This is fence-sitty enough on A50 to suggest an associative read if we get a scumflip on either him or Math.

D1 lynch rationale is nice though, but scum could just as easily post this.

This is fair, and I kinda realised this upon posting. But there wasn't really a way to phrase my thoughts on A50 in a way that's both honest/not scummy. Wasn't gonna bullshit a read just to answer the question.

[Almost50]

They look more like VIs and easy mislynches for me.

Listen to you. You're making no cases, no effort to sort anyone. You're not voting, and you're defending whoever the majority thinks maybe good lynches w/o giving any rational reason for it nor providing an alternative.

Now I acknowledge I have seen you do this as Town too, but I'm not even getting that sinking feeling you're Town here.

Like why do you think I picked YOU as my hypothetical target if I was Hider?

This is wolfy. I could see this being town trying to pressure a scumread, but it comes off as contrived.

You know what? I've just sneezed AND coughed. I bet "now you could see it being Town catching a cold", but it would still comes off as scummy sneezing/coughing to you. Right? Right!

I didn't hear you sneeze and cough, so it's hard to say. I do hear a lot of "woof woof" though.

OK, let's play. You acknowledge 311 could be "town trying to pressure a scumread", yet you say it comes off as "contrived". Why? What points to it being deliberately manufactured rather than a natural/spontaneous response?

Hint: "Gut" is not an acceptable answer. You're already deep in with your conf!bias mode, so every gut feeling you have is simply due your presumption I will flip Scum. I want an answer that does NOT take into account any presumptions, but rather objectively addressing the content of said post. Thank you.

[JaydragonKing]

I know not to expect much from you Sheep, but I'm going to make my case.

Impede goes out of his way to assist Dino to get a read list out of me, then proceeds to vote me with no context because he had to think about it for a while. He finally gets to it with me, because he finally had an excuse ready. The vote wasn't townie at all, especially when he delayed the reason for so long.

Creature becomes fucking active when I mentioned his name and Almost50 started to make image hurting points about him. He now defends himself, but does small things like call people Village Idiot to make any point I say scrutinized even more then usual.

They are suddenly buddy buddy and tackling every point I make in tandom because they got each other's backs. They know they're on the same team. They are scum.

Shorter readlist but updated.

Truly Town members: MathDino, Kop, Momo, Almost50.
Scum members: Impede and Creature.

[Impede]

Decided to take a closer look at Kop rather than continue lazily nullreading him. Not enough for me to want to vote him, but it's moved him to a scumlean for me.

Kop: POLICY LYNCH. idk him giving advice to jay seems really forced, the way he's doing it. like he's speaking as a player and not as a townie?

Didn't really take notice of this at the time because of how forced Math's readslist was, but it echoes my exact sentiment of Kop's early play.

His entrance with the hammer response and all of the being LAMIST while also trying to look annoyed at Jay just comes off wrong. Lots of nice theory talk, but no real content.

Can you elaborate on some of these, because this is striking me as forced reads. Your accusing me of looking forced, this is more forced shit rather than actual reads.

How does Almost50 look town, what does town look like? He's made one RVS vote, and one filler post. How does that make him look town?

Creature, if you believe he is nullscum, why aren't you voting him since he's virtually your only scum read?

Impede, how is he towning around?

Jay, so your happy to lynch someone just to learn them to stop acting scummy, rather than actually lynching someone who you scum read? Do you scum read Jay or not?

Myself, your talking about policy lynching someone on page 4, and no reason because Fitz has painted myself as a policy lynch because of previous games.

Overall, reading these reads, I don't think they are actually genuine reads right now, and is just trying to look active.

VOTE: Mathdino

This is a jankity post. But it demonstrates two things to me: 1) Kop seems meticulous about his posts (scummy imho, but maybe personality), 2) For all the effort, he actually put no effort into understanding town motivation for Math's readslist and took it as an opportunity to discredit and vote.

@math I understand your reason by how or why you've posted the reads, I just felt they were forced rather than actual reads. Some of them I didn't agree with but I'll follow your thoughts and see how you progress with them.

After the previous post, this is very diplomatic. Why make nice-nice here? Any town motivation one might've ascertained from his previous post just went out the window because he just released all the pressure he applied to Math.

VOTE: Impede

This is a wagon outside of Jay/red that I'd like to take off. I don't necessarily scum read Jay, but I just feel he's being hard pressed into a mislynch, I just don't think scum would be that stupid to focus all of the attention onto themselves in the manner he has done since gamestart. I obviously wouldn't like to think that we could possibly go into LYLO with him but I'm wanting to go into different areas rather than focus on him for days on end.

Impede on the other hand, has given me nothing to note that I could town read him for, and I do like the case Fitz has put out against Impede. Last few pages that I have been reading, his name was popping out quite a bit. His vote on Jay doesn't make any sense to me at all, I wouldn't call it opportunistic, it felt more of a let go vote. If this wagon takes off and Impede flips scum, I would 100% go back for Jay because of how that vote felt to me.

Another point I didn't quite work out, he stated that he would hide behind Momo, why would you hide behind Momo considering he had him in his town read in post #152? Why would you not hide behind Fitz, or Una who you were scum reading? I understand hiding behind your town reads would give you a better chance of living, but also confirming your reads, doesn't give anything to gamestate because you don't really confirm anything, because you could be scum lying about being the hider and the hider might not even be in the game.

Here, Kop shows up out of nowhere (holidays, I'm sure, ) and immediately sheeps Fitz. He clearly didn't want to be accused of sheeping though, so we get another meticulously crafted post and even an attempt at some original vote rationale. Problem is, the rationale is jank. The whole point of the hypoclaim in this scenario was to cover all our bases (at least that's how I understood it) so I picked a target that wasn't a hard and fast townread across the board, but who I felt wasn't scummy enough to have a reasonable chance of getting me killed. Using the hypoclaim as a basis for a vote is also really wolfy. It's purely intended as an information source if we get a Hider flip, so most town aren't going to put an excessive amount of thought into it, but the fact that he assumes that one

should

put a lot of thought into it seems to indicate that he's in a scum mindset where he has to go out of his way to choose his target carefully. This might be reaching or confbias, so feel free to shoot me down... it just doesn't sit well with me.

I understand that point on what your trying to make, but from my understanding, it would be useful if they went with there feels, rather than 'oh he's took him, I'll take someone else'. That way I can see what they are feeling and not going with the flow of the game.

I chose mine, without even looking at others, and went with what I feel I would have done if this were the real case.

I did too initially. Only checked the ongoing list when I realized what the intent was. I picked Momo BEFORE verifying that no one else did. Not that this matters. It just verifies that Kop is being very meticulous.

Quick thing, I picked fitz first and I encouraged everyone to pick different hider targets so it wouldn't draw the NK to any one person in particular.

Impede case isn't bad. It's convinced me out of a townread. Hasn't convinced me into a scumread. I see a lot of flak for his interaction with Jay, which I actually like. Seems natural to me.

How do you read Impede right now?

I understand you have your sights set on Jay, and I do agree with you with what you are saying, but personally I'd rather go for someone who can give us more information going into day two so we can get a stronger read on others, I feel lynching Jay on day one, isn't going to give us anything and reads won't be as strong as they would by lynching someone who gives us more. Jay will never be shot, so that is going to obviously be in the back of everyones mind and someone we don't want in LYLO, but he can easily be done on day 2 or 3 if we aren't further forward in lynching scum.

Maybe I'm annoyed because I'm the target of this statement, but advocating for a lynch because it's more informational rather than based on scumminess is alarming. I get that there's an unspoken subtext that "yeah you lynch someone scummy, but you should try to optimize the information you get from it", but he doesn't address the relative merits of lynching me vs lynching Jay based on scumminess, he only gets at the information we gain and then weirdly suggests that we would have to lynch Jay eventually. Possible scum setting up lynches?

Again, I don't think I want to detract from the existing wagon activity by moving my vote, but wanted to throw this out here and see if anyone thinks I'm not just excessively scumlensing.

[Mathdino]

Good. I'm satisfied. Welcome to the game, Jay.
UNVOTE: Jay

New vote on next reads list.

[Creature]

Creature becomes fucking active when I mentioned his name and Almost50 started to make image hurting points about him.

I can become active whenever I want, as long I become active.

[yessiree]

VC 1.12

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

JaydragonKing (3) -

havingfitz, sheepsaysmeep, Impede

RedFlavor (2) -

momo, Almost50

Creature (2) -

JaydragonKing, RedFlavor

Almost50 (1) -

UnabombaH

Impede (1) -

Kop

Not voting

- Assemblerotws, Hawk, Creature, Mathdino

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2018-01-12 08:00:00)

[JaydragonKing]

Creature becomes fucking active when I mentioned his name and Almost50 started to make image hurting points about him.

I can become active whenever I want, as long I become active.

Please tell me you all see what the points Almost and I have made so far about him? He literally doesn't give a shit. This is not a town response at all.

[Impede]

They look more like VIs and easy mislynches for me.

Listen to you. You're making no cases, no effort to sort anyone. You're not voting, and you're defending whoever the majority thinks maybe good lynches w/o giving any rational reason for it nor providing an alternative.

Now I acknowledge I have seen you do this as Town too, but I'm not even getting that sinking feeling you're Town here.

Like why do you think I picked YOU as my hypothetical target if I was Hider?

This is wolfy. I could see this being town trying to pressure a scumread, but it comes off as contrived.

You know what? I've just sneezed AND coughed. I bet "now you could see it being Town catching a cold", but it would still comes off as scummy sneezing/coughing to you. Right? Right!

I didn't hear you sneeze and cough, so it's hard to say. I do hear a lot of "woof woof" though.

OK, let's play. You acknowledge 311 could be "town trying to pressure a scumread", yet you say it comes off as "contrived". Why? What points to it being deliberately manufactured rather than a natural/spontaneous response?

Hint: "Gut" is not an acceptable answer. You're already deep in with your conf!bias mode, so every gut feeling you have is simply due your presumption I will flip Scum. I want an answer that does NOT take into account any presumptions, but rather objectively addressing the content of said post. Thank you.

You basically just said "tell me how it comes off as contrived without saying that it 'comes off as' anything". The very fact that I said "comes off as" indicates that it's a tone/gut read.

To humor you though: You jump down Creature's throat for stating something that essentially amounts to a gut read. I agree that his posting is lazy af and he needs to produce actual content, but your response was overblown ("Listen to you.", "Why do you think"). That sort of predatory aggression is either scum trying to start a lynch mob, or town trying to apply pressure, but the latter doesn't jive, as you could have put him in the hotseat and forced him to be accountable for his lack of content without being opportunistically aggressive. I don't know your playstyle, so maybe this is normal for you, but it was dissonant to me.

[Mathdino]

jesus christ guys stop quote-walling

i'm starting to tune out this argument

[Creature]

Creature becomes fucking active when I mentioned his name and Almost50 started to make image hurting points about him.

I can become active whenever I want, as long I become active.

Please tell me you all see what the points Almost and I have made so far about him? He literally doesn't give a shit. This is not a town response at all.

I mean I shouldn't worry about when I'll become active, I may have become active regardless of whether you mentioned me or not.

[Impede]

Good. I'm satisfied. Welcome to the game, Jay.
UNVOTE: Jay

New vote on next reads list.

You better go back and check all the posts you made promising to do _____ on next reads list. I know of at least one off hand and I remember wanting to see it.

In other news, what on earth changed your mind? Jay is doing more of the same with his most recent posts, just coming at it from a different angle. All of his posts seem geared towards getting votes off of himself.

[Impede]

jesus christ guys stop quote-walling

i'm starting to tune out this argument

My bad. Normally I'm very liberal with snips and spoiler tags, but I'm on my lunch break, so being a bit lazy.

[JaydragonKing]

The point of my argument is that you didn't become active until we mentioned you. Don't bring "What if I did without prodding?" Into this, because that didn't happen. We mentioned you, and THEN you responded.

--- Post Edit ---

And Impede's post 369 is even more damning because, like I said, he's suddenly not looking at any of Creature's scummy tells and working with him. He's also starting the Dismissive strategy.

[Impede]

Please tell me you all see what the points Almost and I have made so far about him? He literally doesn't give a shit. This is not a town response at all.

Valid. I could say the same about all of your survival posting too, but I feel like it would be beating a dead horse.

However, are you advocating a lynch purely based on lack of content/motivation? If so, what makes you certain that this isn't just lazy/unmotivated town as opposed to lurky/smug scum?

Pedit: There aren't any scumtells in Creature's posts. Just lots of PL fodder. Again, I love a good policy lynch, but it has to be a GOOD one. Convince me that (1) Creature has a higher probability of flipping red than you and (2) Creature has a lower probability of being town-productive than you, and I will add my vote to your wagon, if for no other reason than to try and scrounge up some motivation from him.

[Impede]

And why did my vote-rationale post not get a response from you?

[Almost50]

as you could have put him in the hotseat and forced him to be accountable for his lack of content without being opportunistically aggressive

How? Tell me how I could've better phrased my thoughts?

And you do realize I picked Creature for my hypo-Hider target LONG before all this, right?

You also realize he asked me when he became a SR rather than a PL for me more recently than when I did pick him for a target, yes?

But these are rhetorical questions, so let's go back to the one I do want you to answer, if you will. How do you propose I should've phrased my thoughts without being "opportunistically aggressive"?

Thanks in advance