Open 707 - JK9++ [Endgame]

[sheepsaysmeep]

pagetop

[Impede]

Dealing with a family crisis for most of today. I have a lot to say. Expect me to come back to this tonight slightly less pissed off and irrational about the case(s) on me.

The one thing that occurs to me to say regarding my initial scumread of Una is: I played a newbie with him very recently where he was a VT and got D1 mislynched after acting super towny and (tbh) super strangely. His behavior in this game is black and white. Utterly black and white. Like not even close. So I went into the game with a meta scumread on him, basically guilty until proven innocent. Feeling a lot better about him now, even townleaning. Just wanted to make sure that this didn’t go unexplained.

[Mathdino]

UNVOTE:
I need to work more on showing my thought process so I don't get called opportunistic. Therefore, I am going to wallpost my readslist and reasoning in a few hours. Prod me if I do not fulfill this promise.

@Mod, request prod on Assemble.

[yessiree]

Dealing with a family crisis for most of today. I have a lot to say. Expect me to come back to this tonight slightly less pissed off and irrational about the case(s) on me.

The one thing that occurs to me to say regarding my initial scumread of Una is: I played a newbie with him very recently where he was a VT and got D1 mislynched after acting super towny and (tbh) super strangely. His behavior in this game is black and white. Utterly black and white. Like not even close. So I went into the game with a meta scumread on him, basically guilty until proven innocent. Feeling a lot better about him now, even townleaning. Just wanted to make sure that this didn’t go unexplained.

As a reminder, please refrain from talking about other on-going games.

Consider this your final warning.

[Creature]

Banhammer time.

[Impede]

Yeah. Mixed up some of my games. Sorry about that all.

[yessiree]

UNVOTE:
I need to work more on showing my thought process so I don't get called opportunistic. Therefore, I am going to wallpost my readslist and reasoning in a few hours. Prod me if I do not fulfill this promise.

@Mod, request prod on Assemble.

Under normal circumstances I cannot issue this prod since the player in question has not reached prod range yet.

However, considering this request, the approaching deadline, and most importantly, the continued inactivity of Assemblerotws, I have decided to issue his 3rd prod which will result in his immediate force-replacement.

[yessiree]

Seeking a replacement for Assemblerotws.

[Mathdino]

Request deadline extension equal to the period of time between Assemble's last post and Assemble being replaced.

[Impede]

Updated sorting:

Momo, Jay
Math, A50, Una, Hawk

Fitz, Sheep

Kop, Red
Assembleslot, Creature

Obviously will be interesting to see what happens after we get a replace-in for Assemble.

I can’t keep track of the case on me or if there even is one, so if you guys have questions, let me know. Otherwise I’ll respond to things as they ping me.

[Mathdino]

I was gonna post a reads list at some point but the above reads list is basically identical to mine. I don't know how to feel about that. Like if you took the in-thread progression of my thoughts and made up a "Most Likely Mathdino's Reads List" that's what you'd come up with.

So I almost did as promised. I perused Impede's meta in a couple games (Mini Normal 1961 and something else) for the specific behaviour of "repeatedly calls someone scum without voting them or pushing them". I didn't find it. So I came back to the thread to find out exactly what I was looking for. And then I discovered that A50's case is actually horseshit if you actually look at Impede's ISO.

An Itemized List of Impede's Trajectory On Una: Bonus Edition, With Annotations!

It's too early for this crap.

VOTE: Una

This is consistent with what he claimed earlier this page.

Momo, Jay
Math, A50

Kop, Hawk

Una, Fitz
-

This places Una as a top scumread.

Also, this isn't accomplishing anything right now. UNVOTE:

No one joins the Una wagon so he leaves it to go check out the town consensus. Scum would be more benefited from dying on this tunnel, IMO. It would leave him unaccountable for any major wagons.

I also want everyone to try again on who they scumread/want to lynch for today.
Both Elsa and Red are on the table as lynch-candidates, but I have reason to believe I already found scum, and his buddies conveniently "missed" the tells.
Turning towards the easy target (Elsa) right now makes me think there's already scum in the wagon..

Please just explain. Game's slow enough that I think you're gonna have to wait a while before you get answers from everyone.

In case you needed more evidence on Una being town, A50, there you go. Scum doesn't write shit like this.

Wtf? Epically disagree. I could just as easily argue that he's trying to defuse the wagon by sounding all cryptic and wise, while being non-specific so that he doesn't actually have to have a plan.

Continues not-townreading Una. Consistent with his claim earlier this page.

If this wasn't posted by scum, I'm not sure what kind of a townie it would be posted by.

This is utterly and completely valid.

You can see the evolution. I left out a question toward Una earlier on this page because it indicates nothing.

Una, what's your take on Jay? You really think he's just lynchbait?

pedit: Definitely not what I was getting at. And your case on A50 is decent on its face. I'll be reviewing. Also, not a fan of introducing further WIFOM layers by trying to predict what scum will do in-thread. Makes everything more annoying to analyze.

And now he's working with Una.

That's it. A50's case is balls. I'm gonna go through it and actually factcheck him this time. The first time I read it I just took everything he said at face value.
To reiterate just in case future historians of my ISO don't get this:
My case on Impede originally relied on weirdass interactions directed from Impede toward the RedFlavor and Creature wagons. Fencesitting, nullreading, chainsaw defending. After my review of his meta, I've determined this is NAI.

My read on Impede is back to null. He's being consistent with his town meta, but I have no sense of his scumgame to be able to just gutread him from the hip. If we lynch him, it's gonna be on D2 when we actually have the ability to analyse his motivations. Thus far, I see neither excessive (solely) town nor scum motivation.

This wagon should die and go to Creature instead. I'm guessing that at least one or two people on the wagon knew we were unlikely to lynch Impede and sat on the wagon to avoid accountability later.

VOTE: Creature

L-something, someone else do the math

[JaydragonKing]

Assemblerotws, decent mod, kinda crappy player.

[Impede]

I mean he has 4 active games that he’s replaced out of lol.

[JaydragonKing]

If that's the case, I'm a probably use the "Wisdom of the crowd" thing anytime I see him joining a game that I'm in. No offense to him, but I'd rather not deal with like 3 "BigFinn"-like people in one game. Post less often then the others? Perfectly fine. Not even posting at all? Saddening.

[momo]

I was gonna post a reads list at some point but the above reads list is basically identical to mine. I don't know how to feel about that. Like if you took the in-thread progression of my thoughts and made up a "Most Likely Mathdino's Reads List" that's what you'd come up with.

So I almost did as promised. I perused Impede's meta in a couple games (Mini Normal 1961 and something else) for the specific behaviour of "repeatedly calls someone scum without voting them or pushing them". I didn't find it. So I came back to the thread to find out exactly what I was looking for. And then I discovered that A50's case is actually horseshit if you actually look at Impede's ISO.

An Itemized List of Impede's Trajectory On Una: Bonus Edition, With Annotations!

It's too early for this crap.

VOTE: Una

This is consistent with what he claimed earlier this page.

Momo, Jay
Math, A50

Kop, Hawk

Una, Fitz
-

This places Una as a top scumread.

Also, this isn't accomplishing anything right now. UNVOTE:

No one joins the Una wagon so he leaves it to go check out the town consensus. Scum would be more benefited from dying on this tunnel, IMO. It would leave him unaccountable for any major wagons.

I also want everyone to try again on who they scumread/want to lynch for today.
Both Elsa and Red are on the table as lynch-candidates, but I have reason to believe I already found scum, and his buddies conveniently "missed" the tells.
Turning towards the easy target (Elsa) right now makes me think there's already scum in the wagon..

Please just explain. Game's slow enough that I think you're gonna have to wait a while before you get answers from everyone.

In case you needed more evidence on Una being town, A50, there you go. Scum doesn't write shit like this.

Wtf? Epically disagree. I could just as easily argue that he's trying to defuse the wagon by sounding all cryptic and wise, while being non-specific so that he doesn't actually have to have a plan.

Continues not-townreading Una. Consistent with his claim earlier this page.

If this wasn't posted by scum, I'm not sure what kind of a townie it would be posted by.

This is utterly and completely valid.

You can see the evolution. I left out a question toward Una earlier on this page because it indicates nothing.

Una, what's your take on Jay? You really think he's just lynchbait?

pedit: Definitely not what I was getting at. And your case on A50 is decent on its face. I'll be reviewing. Also, not a fan of introducing further WIFOM layers by trying to predict what scum will do in-thread. Makes everything more annoying to analyze.

And now he's working with Una.

That's it. A50's case is balls. I'm gonna go through it and actually factcheck him this time. The first time I read it I just took everything he said at face value.
To reiterate just in case future historians of my ISO don't get this:
My case on Impede originally relied on weirdass interactions directed from Impede toward the RedFlavor and Creature wagons. Fencesitting, nullreading, chainsaw defending. After my review of his meta, I've determined this is NAI.

My read on Impede is back to null. He's being consistent with his town meta, but I have no sense of his scumgame to be able to just gutread him from the hip. If we lynch him, it's gonna be on D2 when we actually have the ability to analyse his motivations. Thus far, I see neither excessive (solely) town nor scum motivation.

This wagon should die and go to Creature instead. I'm guessing that at least one or two people on the wagon knew we were unlikely to lynch Impede and sat on the wagon to avoid accountability later.

VOTE: Creature

L-something, someone else do the math

to the best of my knowledge,

L-1

Nobody hammer without stating intent

[Mathdino]

Spoilering the parts of A50's case I consider nonessential. Lettering to respond. Knowing Impede, there's no fuckin way he's gonna actually defend himself in time for the deadline so here goes.

Spoiler:

Reading someone's tone is one of my weaknesses. I rely more on analysis, associations, setup spec, VCA .. etc.

Like, I could do an ISO, but most of it WILL sound forced. Like, in #74 when he blatantly accuses Jay of being SK, then follows the revelation with "Game solved". Why would TOWN consider the game solved after lynching the SK?

But let's just say that was a joke, and let's also say it was a coincidence his RVS landed on none other than Una.

A. Now even ignoring the link between Impede on Una I still don't see how he got from 152 to disliking momo's TR on me in 161 (if you're confident momo's Town, why is it odd fro momo to be confident in his TR on someone you already had a Town lean on?)

B. In 171 Impeded restates his scum lean on Una (See 152 for the first incident) yet never once did he vote or even try to interact with Una. (same applies to Impede on Fitz, btw).

B. In 274 he ONCE AGAIN says Una is likely scum, and STILL NO VOTE AND NO EFFORT TO SORT/PRESSURE Una AT ALL.

C. Now after having shaded me in 170 for no apparent reason (it's totally NAI.. but it's how SCUM would do it??), Impede agrees with his 3-TIMES A SCUM READ on me being Scum in 286. If this isn't standard distancing between 2 buddies I don't know what is.

Spoiler:

The whole BS of acvusing you of being fence-sitty on me is him indirectly trying to pressure you into voting me.

D. NVM, I'll stop right here. Overall, Impede is being tricky and sly with his posts and votes. He did see Jay's soft-claim (btw, my personal interpretation of a crumb is something that is hard to spot at the time. Jay SOFT CLAIMED. It was too obvious to be called a crumb), and he was pushing there, but he also saw my "possible crumb" and realized lynching a Hider is of higher priority bc they could just shoot the Vig at night.

E. In general, when someone says "this is NAI.. but Scummy" (!!!!), or "I could see this coming from Town, but it feels like scum" (he did it both to you and me) it does give me the impression this is someone keeping all his options open. If Town is lynched .. "but I said it could come from town". If Scum is lynched .. "I also said it looked like scum".

E. tldr; Impede is +70% scum to me. The other 30% is him being a really bad player with a problem in his self-confidence (and from what I've seen people say I don't think it the case).

Spoiler:

Once flipped, THEN I maybe able to see things better. If he flips Scum I will maintain my SR on Una with enthusiasm. If he flips SK, then we know where the "Jay is SK.. game solved" came from. If he flips Town, I'll just reevaluate my reads and go on, but I certainly won't be taking HIS reads into account after having SR'd both me and Jay.

A. This is taken dangerously out of context. He didn't state confidence in his townread on momo in 152. He literally said it was just gutreading from the past 2-3 pages. He specifically states his dislike of momo's TR on you (161) as a PEdit in response to momo's 160. It's very obvious you only looked at these posts in ISOlation.

B. You're literally wrong. He voted Una in 47, restated his scumread in 171, and unvoted in 261. He doesn't state an explicit scumread on Una in 274, he's just arguing with me townsorting him. This has no scum utility. I was already discrediting Una's play, but not his alignment. It doesn't help scumpede to be one of like two people discrediting Una's alignment. He was also at the time voting/pressuring Jay, who was clearly his stronger scumread.

C. 170 is his playstyle, see point E. 286 is him supporting Una for your weirdo "we're relying on night actions" 272 post. This is also seemingly part of his read reversal on Una. After that, he works with Una. I know you think this is scum-scum but I know I think Una is town, so reading into this as some kind of weird nonstandard buddy interaction won't go anywhere.

D. Godawful point. I'll lay it out here: If Scumpede thought you were hider, he's not gonna try to lynch you. Trying to lynch you would force you to claim and then get you not-lynched. It's like you have no idea how scum actually deal with PRs. If Scumpede thinks you're hider, he's just gonna shoot the guy you're hiding behind (Creature). And if they're BOTH scum, okay, MAYBE. But then we should be flipping Creature.

E. From what I say, the self-confidence thing is ENTIRELY the case. His meta is fencesitting like everyone, weighing "well, would town say this?" and "would scum say this?" He's not a SUPER pushy player and he regularly flip-flops without actually explaining to everyone why. If anything,

this is town-indicative

, as scum should be more interested in maintaining a clear and simple and easy-to-follow trajectory. The main reason I'm not outright townreading him for this behaviour is because Impede knows that I know his meta, and might be playing like this on purpose.

He also tries to claim towncred for his fencesitting when he's town, which is laughable, but also makes that kind of thing NAI.

You're deeeeep in tunnel mode. You looked at his posts in isolation and not context to the extent that literally the majority of your points are flat-out wrong.

Follow-up post in a second.

[momo]

Spoilering the parts of A50's case I consider nonessential. Lettering to respond. Knowing Impede, there's no fuckin way he's gonna actually defend himself in time for the deadline so here goes.

Spoiler:

Reading someone's tone is one of my weaknesses. I rely more on analysis, associations, setup spec, VCA .. etc.

Like, I could do an ISO, but most of it WILL sound forced. Like, in #74 when he blatantly accuses Jay of being SK, then follows the revelation with "Game solved". Why would TOWN consider the game solved after lynching the SK?

But let's just say that was a joke, and let's also say it was a coincidence his RVS landed on none other than Una.

A. Now even ignoring the link between Impede on Una I still don't see how he got from 152 to disliking momo's TR on me in 161 (if you're confident momo's Town, why is it odd fro momo to be confident in his TR on someone you already had a Town lean on?)

B. In 171 Impeded restates his scum lean on Una (See 152 for the first incident) yet never once did he vote or even try to interact with Una. (same applies to Impede on Fitz, btw).

B. In 274 he ONCE AGAIN says Una is likely scum, and STILL NO VOTE AND NO EFFORT TO SORT/PRESSURE Una AT ALL.

C. Now after having shaded me in 170 for no apparent reason (it's totally NAI.. but it's how SCUM would do it??), Impede agrees with his 3-TIMES A SCUM READ on me being Scum in 286. If this isn't standard distancing between 2 buddies I don't know what is.

Spoiler:

The whole BS of acvusing you of being fence-sitty on me is him indirectly trying to pressure you into voting me.

D. NVM, I'll stop right here. Overall, Impede is being tricky and sly with his posts and votes. He did see Jay's soft-claim (btw, my personal interpretation of a crumb is something that is hard to spot at the time. Jay SOFT CLAIMED. It was too obvious to be called a crumb), and he was pushing there, but he also saw my "possible crumb" and realized lynching a Hider is of higher priority bc they could just shoot the Vig at night.

E. In general, when someone says "this is NAI.. but Scummy" (!!!!), or "I could see this coming from Town, but it feels like scum" (he did it both to you and me) it does give me the impression this is someone keeping all his options open. If Town is lynched .. "but I said it could come from town". If Scum is lynched .. "I also said it looked like scum".

E. tldr; Impede is +70% scum to me. The other 30% is him being a really bad player with a problem in his self-confidence (and from what I've seen people say I don't think it the case).

Spoiler:

Once flipped, THEN I maybe able to see things better. If he flips Scum I will maintain my SR on Una with enthusiasm. If he flips SK, then we know where the "Jay is SK.. game solved" came from. If he flips Town, I'll just reevaluate my reads and go on, but I certainly won't be taking HIS reads into account after having SR'd both me and Jay.

A. This is taken dangerously out of context. He didn't state confidence in his townread on momo in 152. He literally said it was just gutreading from the past 2-3 pages. He specifically states his dislike of momo's TR on you (161) as a PEdit in response to momo's 160. It's very obvious you only looked at these posts in ISOlation.

B. You're literally wrong. He voted Una in 47, restated his scumread in 171, and unvoted in 261. He doesn't state an explicit scumread on Una in 274, he's just arguing with me townsorting him. This has no scum utility. I was already discrediting Una's play, but not his alignment. It doesn't help scumpede to be one of like two people discrediting Una's alignment. He was also at the time voting/pressuring Jay, who was clearly his stronger scumread.

C. 170 is his playstyle, see point E. 286 is him supporting Una for your weirdo "we're relying on night actions" 272 post. This is also seemingly part of his read reversal on Una. After that, he works with Una. I know you think this is scum-scum but I know I think Una is town, so reading into this as some kind of weird nonstandard buddy interaction won't go anywhere.

D. Godawful point. I'll lay it out here: If Scumpede thought you were hider, he's not gonna try to lynch you. Trying to lynch you would force you to claim and then get you not-lynched. It's like you have no idea how scum actually deal with PRs. If Scumpede thinks you're hider, he's just gonna shoot the guy you're hiding behind (Creature). And if they're BOTH scum, okay, MAYBE. But then we should be flipping Creature.

E. From what I say, the self-confidence thing is ENTIRELY the case. His meta is fencesitting like everyone, weighing "well, would town say this?" and "would scum say this?" He's not a SUPER pushy player and he regularly flip-flops without actually explaining to everyone why. If anything,

this is town-indicative

, as scum should be more interested in maintaining a clear and simple and easy-to-follow trajectory. The main reason I'm not outright townreading him for this behaviour is because Impede knows that I know his meta, and might be playing like this on purpose.

He also tries to claim towncred for his fencesitting when he's town, which is laughable, but also makes that kind of thing NAI.

You're deeeeep in tunnel mode. You looked at his posts in isolation and not context to the extent that literally the majority of your points are flat-out wrong.

Follow-up post in a second.

math, who is this directed at...I'm not voting impede

[Mathdino]

Scum's goal is to divide and conquer town. I have a few obv-townies in my townbloc already. Townblocs that form organically are more often brought down by scum generating paranoia within that bloc than by scum infiltrating it.

Impede is a good player when given enough material/time to reconsider his reads. If he's shittier by D2 than I expect from him, we'll take another look (we can also take a look if associations point to him). But as it is,

lynching Impede will be anti-town

. His flip, to me, is completely non-indicative of RedFlavor and Creature. If he flips green, it's anyone's guess what mafia would do in the situation that we have a good policy-esque lynch going and suddenly the most townread players start going after a mostly nullread player that actually contributes. I don't want to do VCA on a townpede flip.

Hold off on Impede for now.

And yes, I'm more willing to defend players I think are unfairly scumread than start scumcasing players I scumread. We have like 5 days to the deadline and these slapfights aren't helping bring us to a helpful lynch.

PEdit: Dude I'm quoting A50, who do you think it's directed at?
Also PLEASE snip out the quote walls when you quote something massive.

[sheepsaysmeep]

can we just not wall in general

[JaydragonKing]

Walling is appearantly as much of a part of this site as lurking is.

[Mathdino]

can we just not wall in general

The case on Impede was wrong. I'm factchecking it. I'm afraid that a few players (cough you, and me earlier) are just skimming well-written cases and being swayed.

If you wanna go that route, trust this tl;dr:

1. The case took a bunch of things out of context
2. A lot of things that make Impede scummy are actually just playstyle, and I can confirm this
3. Impede gets much better and much more readable on D2

Therefore Impede is a bad lynch and we should lynch Creature instead.

Check the votecount and L-1 or declare "intent as of Assemble's replacement showing up".

[Impede]

Wtf I made a fair number of those same points in my OWN defense when I line-by-lined A50’s case on me. I seriously think no one reads. Or maybe no one reads self-defense posts by someone they are confbiasing.

I don’t want to screw up the wagon on Creature, but I really want to hear what Assemble’s replace-in thinks. I say we use the rest of today to milk as much content out of them as possible.

[Mathdino]

Yeah tbh I tuned all that out and filed it under "weird defence". You also have this tendency of immediately going after people scumreading you because they should already know your playstyle or what Scumpede and Townpede would do. They don't. I happen to.

I agree with you, but I also want a claim out of Creature ASAP so we have enough time to re-organise a lynch. No way I'm ending today with a No Lynch.

My lynch order in case of emergency (which is basically my reads list backwards):
Creature
Assemblerotwslot
RedFlavor (I have not seen a convincing defence of him, and I get the feeling his flip will be more useful than he is)
Kop
sheep
:::Not lynching below here but
fitz
Impede
Una
A50
Hawk
momo
Jay

[JaydragonKing]

I feel honored to be at the very bottom of that list, Dino.

VOTE: Creature

Have a scare.

[sheepsaysmeep]

is that a hammer fuck