Open 707 - JK9++ [Endgame]

[Mathdino]

That’s how I get my feels and reads.
It’s from gut/tone.
When something pings me I can go back and figure out why.

I'm not a fan of this. Gut/tone are more often wrong than right. It's really easy as scum to hide behind gutreads.

Jay is the SK, that’s why he has a survivor wincon. Game solved. Great effort. Let’s go home guys

If any one knows that there is an sk it would be scum, right?

No, scum has no idea whether or not there's an SK. There's a 1/2 chance of there being one. Mafia team's setup is non-indicative of SK existence.

Edit: momo doesn't pay attention to a lot of things. 5 of us double voted the same guy. It was pretty convincing to a couple people.

[Srceenplay]

A50: looks town

Creature: nullscum, posting style feels a bit forced

fitz: first serious vote, doesn't really try to take credit for ending RVS, seems town

Impede: i have no idea what he's talking about in regards to Una but probably town just towning around

Jay: seems to be actively playing to his own meta. i don't think his behavior is super alignment indicative in general, and he's kind of a fluffy fluffer. i'm good with lynching him as a player until he learns not to be scummy. but then again he's probably town doing that weird "forced meta" thing

Kop: POLICY LYNCH. idk him giving advice to jay seems really forced, the way he's doing it. like he's speaking as a player and not as a townie?

Red: vague townish vibes

Una: i can't read any of this shit but i hope he contributes soon

everyone else: get in here so i can scumread you pls

Can you elaborate on some of these, because this is striking me as forced reads. Your accusing me of looking forced, this is more forced shit rather than actual reads.

How does Almost50 look town, what does town look like? He's made one RVS vote, and one filler post. How does that make him look town?

Creature, if you believe he is nullscum, why aren't you voting him since he's virtually your only scum read?

Impede, how is he towning around?

Jay, so your happy to lynch someone just to learn them to stop acting scummy, rather than actually lynching someone who you scum read? Do you scum read Jay or not?

Myself, your talking about policy lynching someone on page 4, and no reason because Fitz has painted myself as a policy lynch because of previous games.

Overall, reading these reads, I don't think they are actually genuine reads right now, and is just trying to look active.

VOTE: Mathdino

Agree with kop.
Seems kinda early to have enough confidence in giving reads to that many people.
On top of that, a lot were town leans.

[Srceenplay]

So, both momo and Mathdino are correctly TRing me but for the wrong reasons.

Did that not bother you?

[JaydragonKing]

Dino said beforehand that he did it to get discussion going. And while I can't say I truly know Math's playing style, he really doesn't like just gut reads and the thread going out of left field, even though on multiple occasions he contributes to that.

And if you live till day 2 and he has important info, he'll hold it back for a 'reaction test'. You gotta confront him to get anything useful out of him.

[Srceenplay]

I'm not a fan of this. Gut/tone are more often wrong than right. It's really easy as scum to hide behind gutreads.

Meta dive me and deal with it. That’s my style.
I think it’s just the opposite. Hard to mask your tone but easy to choose your words.

[Srceenplay]

Dino said beforehand that he did it to get discussion going. And while I can't say I truly know Math's playing style, he really doesn't like just gut reads and the thread going out of left field, even though on multiple occasions he contributes to that.

And if you live till day 2 and he has important info, he'll hold it back for a 'reaction test'. You gotta confront him to get anything useful out of him.

So where is Dino to you?
It sounds like you are calling him fake. Is that accurate?

[Srceenplay]

VOTE: impede

I think as of now I would rather this slot be the lynch and I haven’t even seen creature yet.

[Mathdino]

We have beef, lol.

Dino said beforehand that he did it to get discussion going. And while I can't say I truly know Math's playing style, he really doesn't like just gut reads and the thread going out of left field, even though on multiple occasions he contributes to that.

And if you live till day 2 and he has important info, he'll hold it back for a 'reaction test'. You gotta confront him to get anything useful out of him.

1. Gut reads are a temporary substitute for real reads. I use them at the beginning of the game if I don't see anything particularly stand-out. And I firmly believe in quality shitposting if shitposting is to happen at all.

2. Okay but that's just good play. The space between L-1ing someone and hammering them is ALSO the space for outing any important info that anyone has. If, for example, I have a cop guilty on someone, it's not helpful for me to just out that info because that puts us in a bad situation the next day. Voting the guilty person is NAI.
On the other hand, if I hold it back and play with the person I know is scum (and see how other people react), only to out the guilty later, I can get a lot of good reactions and associative tells.
And lol at needing to confront me to get something useful. You're literally commenting on my Innocent Child play. Of course Innocent Child shouldn't be super forthcoming with their reads.

Edit: Bad vote, bro. Read the last few pages. You're tonereading explicitly NAI behaviour.

[Mathdino]

It's interesting to me that anyone who reads Impede's ISO immediately starts scumreading him, while anyone who actually pores over Impede in context nullreads him.

[Srceenplay]

pagetop yay

I start read again here later.

[JaydragonKing]

I'm saying that I lean more to you in that I go for tone because I'm sometimes better at seeing emotions then logic sometimes. Though I also may screw up if someone fustrates me and makes me read anything they say negativity, like the first 12 or so pages Mathdino did.

Point is, Math will very carefully put his words out because he always puts logic and numbers first. He's more... Neutral in that regard then pure town. That makes me always think he could also be scum, but for now I'm keeping my slight town read on him.

--- Post Edit ---

And I agree that right now Creature is the better Lynch then Impede. Did you look through his ISO and his responses to suspicion? You can also see his tone.

[Srceenplay]

I haven’t iso impede yet but probably will soonish

[Srceenplay]

And I agree that right now Creature is the better Lynch then Impede. Did you look through his ISO and his responses to suspicion? You can also see his tone.

No but I will.
Iirc someone said creature is not giving anything but impede is.
How the does creature become a better lynch with lack of information?

[Mathdino]

Point is, Math will very carefully put his words out because he always puts logic and numbers first. He's more... Neutral in that regard then pure town. That makes me always think he could also be scum, but for now I'm keeping my slight town read on him.

This is actually a very accurate take on my meta, and is how I view myself. Makes me wonder if you've read me outside the game we played together.

Iirc someone said creature is not giving anything but impede is.
How the does creature become a better lynch with lack of information?

Creature is generally useless, lurky, and doesn't believe in giving townreads. That said, he's still given scumreads and has had behaviour we can analyse.

More importantly, we can analyse the behaviour around Creature's wagon, which I think is much more interesting than the Impede wagon.

Also Impede becomes a better town-player as he goes on, and is thus a worse lynch because he's a higher utility player (and easier to read).

[JaydragonKing]

We can never not take into account he currently doesn't have any scum games under his belt at all. His flailing about COULD be considered first time scum response, but I don't know. I had the opposite problem because my first game was scum so I sucked as town.

[Almost50]

Jay is the SK, that’s why he has a survivor wincon. Game solved. Great effort. Let’s go home guys

If any one knows that there is an sk it would be scum, right?

Nope. They can't tell on D1. 2 of the 3 possible Mafia team formation have a 50-50 chance of being accompanied by a Serial Killer each. The third one has a 33.33% of being accompanied with a SK.

TTTTTT = Mafia Goon, Mafia 1-Shot Bus Driver
TTTTT = Mafia Goon, Mafia 1-Shot Bus Driver, Serial Killer
TTTT = Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon, Mafia JOAT (Roleblock, Ninja Kill, Strongman Kill)
TTT = Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon, Mafia JOAT, Serial Killer
TT = Mafia Goon, Mafia 1-Shot Bus Driver, Mafia JOAT
T = Mafia Goon, Mafia 1-Shot Bus Driver, Mafia JOAT, Serial Killer
0 Ts = Mafia Goon, Mafia 1-Shot Bus Driver, Mafia JOAT

[Mathdino]

His flailing about is what he does as town already. Flailing is not a scumtell. For a select few players, flailing is different between their town and scumgames, but that's about it.

As a very general tell (that applies to more than just Impede), scum tend to have a more simple/consistent narrative and trajectory. They get a scumread, they follow up on it, they keep at it, and when they change their mind, it's because of specific reasons. Scum tends not to wildly throw out around reads, forget about them, forget why they changed their reads, or do incomprehensible things while appearing otherwise levelheaded (unless incomprehensibility is their playstyle).

This is because scum knows they'll be questioned on crazy shifts, and scum doesn't want the spotlight on them unless they know their defence will work.

Impede is absolute shit at defending himself, and he knows he's bad at this because his entire meta is full of getting questioned and then getting scummier and scummier as he responds and defends. He also knows that he gets scumread often for changing his mind, backtracking, and doing generally weird things without explaining why.

So in order for him to be scum, he'd have to fully know that his town meta is commonly seen as scummy, know that the way he defends himself is scummy, and then behave that way anyway even if it has a HIGHHH chance of getting himself lynched.

Since I'm apparently the only player that knows his meta, he'd have to trust that specifically Mathdino will come along and present this exact argument to prevent that lynch. Which would be a massive fucking stretch to expect me to defend him this hard.

I've changed my mind. I've argued myself into definitely thinking Impede is town.

[Almost50]

So, both momo and Mathdino are correctly TRing me but for the wrong reasons.

Did that not bother you?

Nope. I could see them TRing me for those exact reasons, which is why I was telling THEM those reasons were not valid.

[Almost50]

And if you live till day 2 and he has important info, he'll hold it back for a 'reaction test'. You gotta confront him to get anything useful out of him.

Tell me about it. (Or DON'T!)

[Mathdino]

He's referring to a recently completed micro.

Basically, scum marks a player for death every night and that player dies at the end of the next day. Since only one player can be marked, claiming being marked confirms you as town to some extent.

So this troll player Not_Mafia claims marked at the beginning of D2 when I was actually marked. So I played along, confirmed 2 players as town (to myself) by reaction testing them, then counter-claimed marked (N_M claimed he was also reaction testing them). Said I was gonna roll back and let the game play itself out so I wouldn't interfere too much with anyone's trajectory as IC.

Well they ended up speedlynching a lurker who was gonna get replaced without my vote at all, which then instantly killed me (on day-end).

And Jay thinks I should've claimed earlier so that lynch wouldn't happen.

[JaydragonKing]

I don't want to get into that again, but I need people to be more direct.

I'm more willing to believe a cop claim who came out instantly then one who waited like five real world days for that reason as well.

[Mathdino]

At the time, the issue wasn't your willingness to believe me. You were already primed to think that I would be marked instead of N_M.

When it comes to the cop claim, obviously if I claimed cop-with-a-guilty while I'm at L-1, that's shitty. We have breadcrumbs for exactly that reason; it doesn't look like people just made shit up on the spot.

[Srceenplay]

I don't want to get into that again, but I need people to be more direct.

I'm more willing to believe a cop claim who came out instantly then one who waited like five real world days for that reason as well.

You’ll get used to it.
Dino is right.
Slow play it. Scum might end up doing something that you will be able to counter.

[momo]

Screeplay...can you please read the whole game before voting...your votes won't be meaningful unless you have read the whole game

[Mathdino]

We do have enough votes for a Creature lynch right?

He's at L-2 right now. sheep will probably vote him again. Who's here to declare intent?

Creature you're better off claiming now. If you're a PR we NEED the time to reorganise

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