Mini 1978: Do It For The Vine uPick Mafia [Game Over]

[Kokichi Oma]

I need Maki to clarify if Kiyo is the same alignment as Usami and Kaito or different.

[Kokichi Oma]

I'm sure after we sift through the lies, we will find the truth we are looking for.

[VNB National Plan]

Yes, he was. Fullstop. He was confirmed town the minute Kirigiri flipped with a role that did exactly what she said it did, in which she confirmed Weebs was a masonizer and we've already confirmed that if you start as a mason your QT confirms you.

This did not stop people from voting Mister McWeebster yesterday

Irrelevant to my statement as this was before the flip, discrediting me for no reason.

This did not stop Mister Oma from voting Mister McWeebster today, or Miss Harukawa from voting Mister McWeebster today!

They would have been sorted out with LOGIC. Your clear was unnecessary and irrelevant. And you should have known that after the flip instead of acting like it didn't happen in these very statements and using the reasoning of yesterday as an excuse for the claimed actions of today.

We have also established that the mechanics for my masonize do not quite work identically to the mechanics of Mister McWeebster's masonize, and thus, it was not a bad choice to have been made! By having him confirmed as town by MY masonize, I am by proxy confirming his masonize worked as he claimed with no strings attached!

Why would your masonize working confirm his masonize has no strings attached? He doesn't even have that role anymore.

You are working off of information we have at daystart! Not off of the information we had LAST NIGHT!!! I when I submitted my night action was working off of information we had last night! Last night, it was viable for the scumteam to be composed of you, Mister Shinguji, and one other name! That other name could have been anyone except for Mister Oma or Mister Momota in my mind! This has since been called into question, but both names were viable nightkills and thus not the best masonize targets!

Technically from my perspective I'm working from information I already knew since a scumteam with me in it isn't possible. Momota shouldn't have been cleared from your perspective either since it required another claim to fall apart. Also since you've suggested insane parody, surely you considered that Momota could have been the opposite of your alignment? I really can't stress enough how dumb your choice would have to be if you were town. I don't think you're dumb, Usami.

You didn't think the OTHER MASONIZER was a kill target, but you thought the uncleared cop was?

The other masonizer had been vanillaized and is thus not a nightkill target because he has no role and was not considered conftown! I established this above and you cannot argue that votes on him did not materialize when the simple truth of the matter is they did! The uncleared cop is still a parity cop and if we assumed the results were accurate and sane, then the scum would fear that ability! She has also not been voted the entire game as far as I can recall! And with her being widely townread, this gave extra reason she could die!

I am arguing that votes shouldn't have materialized on him, really. If it was those two wasn't that the same pair that lynched Kirigiri quickly? People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. (It also makes the likelyhood of one of them being scum high doesn't it?) What I am also arguing is that night-you should not have thought that people would vote Weebs after Kirigiri flipped confirming him as a masonizer/vig/alignment swapper. It would have made more sense to think that they would not because he had the best chance of being town after that, and if they did you could use the base logic that he's a CONFIRMED MASONIZER to scare any votes away. Your action does make perfect sense though, if it comes from the perspective of someone who put zero thought into what that flip meant...

It is in fact Miss Harukawa's survival which makes me feel that perhaps she is not a sane parity cop, because if scum knew her claimed results were inaccurate, it would explain why they let her get another result! If they didn't feel threatened, then there would be no need to nightkill her!

Or they're all godfathers but yes, not trusting the clearly bogus cop results is a good start.

Also that guide is probably not written for a game with four cops who had five innocents on Day 2... At least I would hope you intended for people to think in context of the game they're playing before using their roles rather then ALWAYS NEVER TARGET SCUM. Also you should seriously rethink your strategy post-game if you are town because you pretty much deathtunneled town last time we played together too and confirming that you're wrong more often would teach you prolonged humility. (I'm definitely not going to read that because I target my scumreads and they turn out to be scum. )

So... who can even be scum? something isn't right here

There are many possibilities, but my belief is you should not be greedy! We do not need to catch the entire scumteam today; we only need to catch one scum! VNB National Plan is that scum![/quote]
No, see I think this is a question that needs answering, who is my best friend scumteam? I've already written a wall here so I guess I'm actually invested in not losing this game by being lynched today. When you say things like this it reads to me as "Avoid thinking of the future! Just one more mislynch to push though and this game is secured!"

[VNB National Plan]

I should have /inned as Monokuma, this game would look so much funnier that way.

[Kokichi Oma]

I think we need to look at this differently.

[Korekiyo Shinguji]

I need Maki to clarify if Kiyo is the same alignment as Usami and Kaito or different.

Maki has claimed I am the same alignment is Weeby.

Did Toko and Weeby ever clarify that Usami was confirmed town to them?

[Korekiyo Shinguji]

No, see I think this is a question that needs answering, who is my best friend scumteam? I've already written a wall here so I guess I'm actually invested in not losing this game by being lynched today. When you say things like this it reads to me as "Avoid thinking of the future! Just one more mislynch to push though and this game is secured!"

I'm scumreading you and I agree with this. If you make the argument VNB is scum based on roles, then you have to have workable possibilities for the partners. I assume Usami's insanity theory is supposed to cover that, making me scum.
I personally find insane cops to be lazy game design, but I also don't know Ginngie.
Solving a game with setup-spec is just about the most boring way I can think of to lose, so I would rather not.
I've lost a game as town because the moderator used a miller, a godfather, and no cop. Scum claimed cop and became unlynchable despite our attempts and despite scummy play.

[Korekiyo Shinguji]

It is in fact Miss Harukawa's survival which makes me feel that perhaps she is not a sane parity cop, because if scum knew her claimed results were inaccurate, it would explain why they let her get another result! If they didn't feel threatened, then there would be no need to nightkill her!

Why can Maki not simply be scum?

This is, of course, only for argument's sake. I know she's not insane as Weeby is probably town, certainly not a Godfather as confirmed by Kyoko, and I am town.
If she is town and sane we are left with problems.
Assuming the masonry is legitimate: VNB is scum. I am scum. The third scum is... Procat? (It would have been nice to allow Procat to post before hammering Kyoko after she performed the alignment swap, wouldn't it.)
I am not scum.
Town and insane, and assuming legitimate masons: Kaito is scum, I am scum, and VNB is scum. VNB is town if Procats was scum.
Both of them require me to be scum.
VNB is not scum in the second scenario. So why are they confirmed scum to you, Usami? Have I misunderstood something? I feel as though I should be under fire here.

And as an aside, Maki is surely mafia from where I'm standing. I do worry I've missed something, however. There are a lot of moving parts. It would help

somewhat

to have all of the masons explicitly confirming each other instead of leaving me to wonder if Usami's masonize is not two-way.

[Korekiyo Shinguji]

Why would your masonize working confirm his masonize has no strings attached? He doesn't even have that role anymore.

This, as well. Confirming Weeby as town does nothing but confirm

Weeby

. The only player he used the role on is dead.
Kyoko confirmed the masonize, used it, and then flipped town. All before your decision to masonize Weeby last night. Kokichi is confirmed town by Kyoko, and so does not need any help legitimizing his mason status.

[Korekiyo Shinguji]

Procat's nightkill lends credence to them being mafia originally, so it is plausible we have another mislynch today. I would not bet the game on it, however.

[VNB National Plan]

The quicklynch also lends credence to Cats being scum but it heavily implies both Maki and Kokichi are scum. I just find it equally plausable he was town and killed knowing he'd flip town and we'd still be paranoid about it.

I'm assuming you don't think you're scum either so neither of your scenarios work for you either. Maki, Kaito and Cats/Me scum is possible from your perspective?

[VNB National Plan]

I'm going to avoid posting more walls until Bella confirms whether I've actually gone off the deep end or not, >_>

[Kokichi Oma]

The quicklynch also lends credence to Cats being scum but it heavily implies both Maki and Kokichi are scum.

Why just us? Why no one on the wagon before? Also, I believe I hammered 2 hours or so after Maki even voted.

[VNB National Plan]

Because you both voted after the switch was made, kind of obvious isn't it? I forgot you explained you thought Kirigiri swapped with them (lol) but you still could have let Cats make a post, no?
If this was a normal game I'd include you highly in my scumreads but you were masonized by the very person we're talking about so.. hitoshrug?
You also seem to have an alternate theory on what's going on with night actions that you're waiting for claims to talk about, so I'm waiting to hear if you have better ideas.

[Korekiyo Shinguji]

The quicklynch also lends credence to Cats being scum but it heavily implies both Maki and Kokichi are scum. I just find it equally plausable he was town and killed knowing he'd flip town and we'd still be paranoid about it.

I'm assuming you don't think you're scum either so neither of your scenarios work for you either. Maki, Kaito and Cats/Me scum is possible from your perspective?

My point was that I can't think of a way Maki isn't scum here, yes. It all doesn't seem

correct

but I'm not sure what else to think.
And yes, essentially. I've been mulling over scumasons but Maki's existence throws a wrench in that.

[Kokichi Oma]

Lets wait to see what Maki says, or codes to us.

[Weeby McWeebster]

I'm very confused why we haven't lynched Maki already?

[Weeby McWeebster]

VOTE: Maki in case I was still rage voting the masron

[Usami]

Irrelevant to my statement as this was before the flip, discrediting me for no reason.

Not irrelevant! As you may recall, Miss Kirigiri was my strongest townread! Her lynch told me nothing I had not already assumed! As a result, her flip did not factor into my thoughts at all! Why would her flip have affected me; it was exactly what I was already thinking!!!

Actions before the flip are therefore just as relevant as actions after the flip to me, because as far as I am concerned, there is no difference between the two!

They would have been sorted out with LOGIC.

If you think Miss Harukawa and Mister Oma are beacons of logic, as their teacher, I am sorry to inform you that their test scores in this field are notably poor! They react far more by impulse and emotional responses than by actual reasoning!!!

Frankly, I don't even follow the logic which cleared Mister McWeebster, and I am by your own confessions better at logic than most! If *I* have trouble following the logic which 'cleared' him, then it is reasonably likely that Miss Harukawa and Mister Oma had trouble as well! This can even be shown in the fact that Miss Harukawa selected Mister McWeebster as an investigative target last night!

For all your complaining about MY usage of my role top cop Mister McWeebster, I note you hold zero criticism of the

actual cop

who did the exact same thing! So clearly, it was not just me!!!

Why would your masonize working confirm his masonize has no strings attached? He doesn't even have that role anymore.

My masonize working would allow me to confirm that the role started in the hands of town! He didn't have it anymore, sure enough, but I still thought having absolute confirmation he was town would be useful information to possess! It removed any scenario where it was a scum ability; it removed any scenario where a gambit would be involved because I know that miss administrator would allow a public action to be stated as a masonize when truthfully being a neighborize off of her past modding experience!!! It meant that 100%, unambiguously, beyond any shadow of doubt, that the masonize worked in the way they claimed it functioned as!

Momota shouldn't have been cleared from your perspective either since it required another claim to fall apart.

Mister Momota had a cop clear on him! At the time, I had no reason to believe this cop clear would be incorrect! The possibility now exists that it was so, but this is again not information I possessed last night!

Also since you've suggested insane parody, surely you considered that Momota could have been the opposite of your alignment?

There is a thing called a difference between "reasonable doubt" and "paranoia"!

When there are viable scumteams existing without doubting the cop clear, to doubt the clear by any nature is considered paranoia! I avoid it at all costs! When, by your own account, there is only one player not "confirmed" when we have a minimum of two that are scum, then suddenly, it is a lot more reasonable to be suspicious of how 'clear' the cop results really are!

Again, you are criticizing my action off of information we have today, ignoring whether I would possess it during the night; I did not!

I am arguing that votes shouldn't have materialized on him, really.

This is an actual irrelevant point!
You can argue the votes

shouldn't

have materialized all you like!
That doesn't change the FACT that they

DID

!!!
The votes materializing proves my point! No matter how much you insist from a "theoretical" standpoint that the votes should not have materialized, that they did in fact materialize is evidence that town players were not thinking in the way

you

insist they are, and WERE thinking in the way *I* am saying they were!

Mister McWeebster was not considered clear! Not to me, not to Miss Harukawa, and not to Mister Oma! We cannot all be scum, especially since for me to be scum it necessitates BOTH Miss Fukawa and Mister McWeebster to be my scumbuddies given that they are vouching for my masonizer claim! So the simple fact is, town players, be it one, two, or three, thought Mister McWeebster was suspicious, and did so after the flip of Miss Kirigiri! This is indisputable!

Maybe from some outside perspective, the action was a waste by a theoretical viewpoint! But only from that outside perspective in theory! In actual practice from the viewpoint of players inside the game, it was clearly not a waste! The evidence is there for all to see! Mister Oma and Miss Harukawa were voting Mister McWeebster! The

only

reason they unvoted was because of the mason clear on him!

If you doubt this, this is solved simply by asking them! Both Mister Oma and Miss Harukawa are alive! And while Miss Harukawa is post-restricted, we still know how to communicate with her because of the system we have established; it is possible for us to therefore see why she unvoted by what she agrees, and doesn't agree, with! And absolutely nothing prevents Mister Oma from clarifying why he unvoted!!!

What I am also arguing is that night-you should not have thought that people would vote Weebs after Kirigiri flipped confirming him as a masonizer/vig/alignment swapper. It would have made more sense to think that they would not because he had the best chance of being town after that, and if they did you could use the base logic that he's a CONFIRMED MASONIZER to scare any votes away.

You assume I hold no experience with Mister Oma and Miss Harukawa, for these tactics are ignorance in face of knowing the players from it! The tactic you suggest would never work on those two!

Your action does make perfect sense though, if it comes from the perspective of someone who put zero thought into what that flip meant...

As indicated above, this is explicitly the case! If you were expecting me to deny this, then I must apologize, but it is simply not something I will do! When someone flips exactly what I expect them to flip, then I do not put any thought into reevaluating the game because my thoughts have no reason to have changed! I anticipated Miss Kirigiri as town, and thus I was working on the assumption she was town before the flip! So when she flipped town, I put no further thought into the game, because nothing had changed!

(I'm definitely not going to read that because I target my scumreads and they turn out to be scum. )

Dare I say it; I think I do! I spot a confession that targeting you would have been targetting scum!

---

I would also note that this is a continued discrediting of me, while not taking much in the way of actual stances! It is as if you cannot afford for my claim to be trusted today, because it being trusted would put you in an unwinnable position! 3/8 votes guaranteed to not vote each other is almost impossible to overcome; to mislynch me, you need the two-or-three (depending on how many scum are alive!) un-masonized town players to vote for me! And for that matter, you need for it to be me voted, because if I am allowed to live through the day (especially if I manage it without voting!!!), I can simply masonize one extra name, and a masonry of four is guaranteed to not be the scumteam!

The simple fact of the matter was, if you were town, you would know that I am town! You would be trying to convince me that my read was wrong and to convince me to look elsewhere! But instead of trying to convince me my read is wrong, your entire focus has been on how my action was a mistake! This is shifting focus to the absolute last place a town player should be focusing on, because even IF you were right, it ignores one vital fact!

Done actions have been done already! There is no changing them! Criticism of bad action choices is best saved for postgame! Instead, what a town-you would be focusing on is what actions to use in the NOW!

[Usami]

If you make the argument VNB is scum based on roles

I am going to stop you there because if your initial premise is faulty, then the entire post which follows off the basis of that initial premise is best addressed!

VNB National Plan has

never

been scum by POE! They have never been scum because roles say so!

They have always been scum by play! I have stated this repeatedly and even highlighted many of my issues with their content this game!

However, I would like to state on the record that even working by roles, there are only a few possibilities!
Mister Oma cannot be scum because we know the masonize on him worked! We also know by the game mechanics that a masonize target cannot be scum if it succeeds! I cannot find any way to reconcile these with Mister Oma not being town! As a safe bet, no matter what, he is likely town!

There is nothing preventing Miss Harukawa from a role-based perspective from being scum! HOWEVER, this is why I place so much emphasis on the

lack

of role emphasis in my reads! The reason I am not lynching Miss Harukawa is based not on roles, but on

interactions

, in that I cannot see Miss Harukawa and VNB National Plan being scumbuddies together! Not with their interactions being what they are!

I know for a 100% fact that my masonry is all-town, beyond all shadow of doubt, for much the same reason Mister Oma cannot be scum!

This leaves you, you may note, with three names! VNB National Plan, Mister Shinguji, and Mister Momota! We have parity cop results on Mister Shinguji and Mister Momota! Thus, there are two possibilities as I see them!
Both Mister Shinguji and Mister Momota are not town (and thus the parity cop is insane!!!), or one of them is town, the other is a Godfather, and we are missing a third scum! The latter virtually necessitates that Procatstinators was said third scum!

I would quite enjoy having anyone point out where my logic is incorrect! Because I do not see it.

Mister Shinguji, it is

possible

for you to be town! But it is only a 25% chance!
It is possible Mister Momota is town! But it is only a 25% chance!
It is not possible for VNB National Plan to be town!

Unless you wish to posit the scumteam is Miss Harukawa, yourself, and Mister Momota with the parity cop as bogus! Which, frankly, I believe you have good reason to object to because that theory is clearly not the case!

This is why I said not to get greedy!
I do not know who the scumteam is exactly!
I do know that no matter what, VNB National Plan is on said scumteam!

[VNB National Plan]

That was a confession that I think I'm way better at mafia then you. At least 20% cooler.

I'm not sure what you mean by not trying to convince you. I've been forthright about my thoughts on what's happening in this game and my thought process, which if you were actually trying to read me rather then come at it from the biased perspective of needing me to be scum, you would perhaps look at and consider you had made some terrible base assumptions about me. This is why I can't parse you actually being town because I don't think you're trying to read the game at all, you've literally done the same thing for three days, and I would daresay you weren't trying that hard to lynch me for two of them. You should also realize from my perspective as town I know something is wrong with the setup so I can't take your role as a guarentee.

I'd like to remind you I have no idea who Kokichi or Maki are (rumors she's UCVoyager seem to be exagerated as they were in a game together someone said?) so why would you expect me to know you've even played together before? It helps to explain your perspective at least.

I have definitely been thinking about actions. Like how much shorter your posts would be as some sort of fridge magnet.. You know if you're not even going to vote arguing with you is pretty pointless. If you've been paying attention, Maki is probably scum so whatever person she pretended to cop is pretty irrelevant.

[Usami]

It is in fact Miss Harukawa's survival which makes me feel that perhaps she is not a sane parity cop, because if scum knew her claimed results were inaccurate, it would explain why they let her get another result! If they didn't feel threatened, then there would be no need to nightkill her!

Why can Maki not simply be scum?

Miss Harukawa being scum is mutually exclusive with VNB National Plan being scum by play! (Not by role!)

In a Miss Harukawa as scum world, the parity cop results are irrelevant, placing Mister Shinguji and Mister Momota back into suspicion! Thus, this is a

possible

team, but I do not believe it, especially given Miss Harukawa would be banking on us not lynching one of you at any point!

Mister Oma still remains as town!
The masonry still remains as town!
So you are left once more with one of Mister Shinguji/Mister Momota as scum with her, and missing the third scum! (Which basically necessitates Procatstinators being said third scum!)

I find this to be a significantly less likely scenario than simply having Miss Harukawa as town!

So while it is

possible

for Miss Harukawa to be scum, I do not believe it to be the case! The roles make it less likely, and the play makes it virtually impossible! Parity cop is also an awful fakeclaim for her to make as scum! By claiming that role, she calls into question why she survives each night! She is forced to produce results, which if they are not accurate, make players want to lynch her! And because we know her posting restriction is real, she has very little in the way of defense of her actions!

She cannot directly say, "Well, I guess I'm insane"! She cannot mount an effective defense for results being shown inaccurate! She must rely on others to do the defending for her, a risky business indeed!!! This leads me to believe the claim is legitimate and she really is a post-restricted parity cop! I admit, role does not always necessitate alignment! So Miss Harukawa could be a scum post restricted parity cop, I confess this is indeed a possibility! However, if she really has that role, it runs into the same exact issues as above!

If the results are real with no insanity or Godfather, then we are left with an issue in that there is no viable scumteam!
If the results are faked, then she runs the risk of players wanting to lynch her with her being unable to realistically mount much of a defense, relying on others to do it for her!

No matter what angle you approach it from, town with that role, scum faking that role, scum with that role, the conclusion still seems inevitable! I simply cannot find it realistically viable for her to not be town!!!

[Kokichi Oma]

So many words for so few content.

[Usami]

I've been forthright about my thoughts on what's happening in this game and my thought process

Then you should have no issue summarizing your thoughts!

Because for someone who insists, "We can't be the ONLY scum in the game", you sure seem to have Miss Harukawa or maybe myself as being the 'only' scum in the game! This is what I have gotten from your posts! Feel free to demonstrate otherwise!

which if you were actually trying to read me rather then come at it from the biased perspective of needing me to be scum

You keep on saying this over and over again! You have said it since D1, that I "need" you to be scum! This was not the case D1, it was not the case D2, and it is still not the case D3! You have

always

been scum, not by POE, but by play!!!

That you continue to insist otherwise in spite of me showing you the issues I have taken with your play tells me it is not a point you can afford to acknowledge as legitimate!

I would daresay you weren't trying that hard to lynch me for two of them.

Before I got a successful masonize off, I must confess I was not pushing my scumreads as hard as I otherwise would have been! I valued a successful masonize more than I valued pushing my scumreads, because I felt that the masonizer role succeeding would be a better contribution to the long-term success of the town! However, I was pushing as hard as I could once I did!

710! 714! 735! The town case on everyone except for you and Mister Shinguji in 737! (I was in a rush to finish for a reason I cannot remember, so I didn't get a chance to do my scumreads in that post!!!) 738! These all contain a push on you! They do not push anyone else! They push exclusively you and Mister Shinguji! Mostly you!!! Do not confuse light roleplay for light pushing! In spite of my posting style, I've not once ceased to push you!

If you've been paying attention, Maki is probably scum so whatever person she pretended to cop is pretty irrelevant.

See my above posts for why this is both not the case, and absolutely hypocritical of you!

[Usami]

So many words for so few content.

This is actually one of my main issues with VNB National Plan!

For me to say much without saying much is to be expected! As a teacher, it is expected of me in my role to have much pointless verbosity in my lectures!

VNB National Plan has no such excuse! They are saying many words, but those words contain very little in terms of actual content! This has been the case the entire game; it is not a recent development!