Open 708: Pick Your Poison - Game Over


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Post Post #100 (ISO) » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:06 pm

Post by CultOfAthena »

In post 89, Beefster wrote: These posts look like newbscum, but mozamis is obviously no newb.

I'll have to think more about this.
I could see how you would see scum there, but what's newb about those posts?
In post 94, PenguinPower wrote:
In post 84, CultOfAthena wrote:I like how Thor focused on, or rather engaged with multiple people and dislike how PP primarily focused just on Thor.
Noted. In the future, I won't focus on the aggressive guy pushing me. Oh...wait...no. That's a bad idea.
That is unambiguously not what I was saying. Thor engaged with other people while engaging with you, while you largely only engaged with Thor.
Next time, maybe in your two posts, you can put a bit more reasoning behind your statements. For example:
In post 84, CultOfAthena wrote:If moneybags is scum, I doubt PP is.
Why?
That's entirely fair, so I'll elaborate my inital thoughts a bit. I don't think moneybags is the first one to soft defend you there if you're both scum. I think scum try very hard in the very early game to distance from each other, so his seemingly casual response in and followup in indicate to me that, if he were scum, he's not defending his scumbuddy there. Perhaps an errant conclusion, but part of the reason I didn't elaborate in the first place is that it's just something I'm filing away in the back of my mind to come back to later.
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Post Post #101 (ISO) » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:30 pm

Post by Beefster »

In post 100, CultOfAthena wrote:
In post 89, Beefster wrote: These posts look like newbscum, but mozamis is obviously no newb.

I'll have to think more about this.
I could see how you would see scum there, but what's newb about those posts?
It almost seems too obvious to be an actual scumtell because it bears resemblance to the kind of opening post I'd see from newbscum. I'm not really sure how to make sense of it. I'm probably reading into it too much and it might just be playstyle.
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Post Post #102 (ISO) » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:35 pm

Post by Beefster »

In post 98, Flubbernugget wrote:Bella votes are pro town atm
Not sure how I feel about this post. On the one hand, I can see possible scum in Bella, but on the other hand, it looks slightly manipulative.

VOTE: Flubber

Pinging me just a bit stronger than thor.
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Post Post #103 (ISO) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:22 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 87, Beefster wrote:You're case is built around Penguin's status as a queue moderator. I don't think that's very sportsmanlike and reeks of typical garbage reasons used by scum.
My case has literally nothing to do with his status as queue moderator.
His defense has everything to do with it.
So how is my case built around it exactly?
In post 92, Flubbernugget wrote:
In post 83, Thor665 wrote:
In post 82, Flubbernugget wrote:Penguin will be scum if all they can do is continue to argue with you
Penguin will be scum unless he posts a smilie in his next post.
:neutral:
You're better than fallacious analogies
What's fallacious about my comparison there?
In post 99, Klick wrote:I'm not going to claim I can read Thor right now, because I can't. I think he's still playing the way he would play either alignment and will continue to do so for some time. He's someone I'll look into later on.
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... arently.29

CallofAthena can be town now.
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Post Post #104 (ISO) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:26 am

Post by Flubbernugget »

You're joking right? You really don't see the difference between saying there's one thing he shouldn't do and one thing he should do?
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Post Post #105 (ISO) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:36 am

Post by Flubbernugget »

In post 102, Beefster wrote:
In post 98, Flubbernugget wrote:Bella votes are pro town atm
Not sure how I feel about this post. On the one hand, I can see possible scum in Bella, but on the other hand, it looks slightly manipulative.

VOTE: Flubber

Pinging me just a bit stronger than thor.
So, calling a scum read from one post is always an easy case to fake.

Would you like to elaborate on how it's manipulative? Because there's nothing in that post that says there's consequences for disagreeing with me, and I'm certainly not buddying anyone with it
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Post Post #106 (ISO) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:43 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 104, Flubbernugget wrote:You're joking right? You really don't see the difference between saying there's one thing he shouldn't do and one thing he should do?
So if I'd said the one thing Penguin shouldn't do to look like scum is post a smilie you would have been totally okay with it and got my point?
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Post Post #107 (ISO) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:47 am

Post by Flubbernugget »

Timing tells are still garbage Thor.

Pls make better pushes cuz based on that wiki thing you posted you're probably a sk right now.

Pedit: no. You would have a different point then. Be explicit about what you're getting at or something
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Post Post #108 (ISO) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:08 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 107, Flubbernugget wrote:Timing tells are still garbage Thor.
I can show you them working.
It's just like meta, or any other tell - it's as effective as how it is used, and even though it can be used badly it can also be used well.
I don't get your point here - are you saying I should have used a better tell in RVS?
Seriously?
This is empty noise, what are we debating here?
In post 107, Flubbernugget wrote:Pls make better pushes cuz based on that wiki thing you posted you're probably a sk right now.
What are your issues with my other pushes?
In post 107, Flubbernugget wrote:Pedit: no. You would have a different point then. Be explicit about what you're getting at or something
My point is I was making a jab at you coaching him into how to get your approval.
I fail to see how changing "do this" to "don't do this" would change my point - can you explain that?
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Post Post #109 (ISO) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:33 am

Post by Flubbernugget »

I mean your push against me now sucks too

I think seeing what I did as coaching makes your complaint make more sense. Think of it this way: if I'm already of the opinion that your timing argument isn't worth discussing, why would I town read someone who's only focus is that argument?

You're welcome to show me a tell based on timing actually working. I've never seen it before. Also, you've said that you're no longer attaching to this argument as a means to get out of rvs, so why are you even bringing that up?
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Post Post #110 (ISO) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:51 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 109, Flubbernugget wrote:I mean your push against me now sucks too
I'm questioning you, but I haven't called you or anything you've done particularly alignment telling, so...
In post 109, Flubbernugget wrote:I think seeing what I did as coaching makes your complaint make more sense. Think of it this way: if I'm already of the opinion that your timing argument isn't worth discussing, why would I town read someone who's only focus is that argument?
Oh, I *agree* that Penguin's position was iffy - I said so before you did.
I just don't get the idea behind telling him 'yo, stop doing A and I'll read you townish'.
In post 109, Flubbernugget wrote:You're welcome to show me a tell based on timing actually working. I've never seen it before. Also, you've said that you're no longer attaching to this argument as a means to get out of rvs, so why are you even bringing that up?
I'm bringing it up as a means to assess what your alignment is because you're taking time to attack it and I wish to know why.

How many examples would it take to make you admit my timing case is brilliant and you should sheep me? Give me a goal to work for and I'll offer you examples.
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Post Post #111 (ISO) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:14 am

Post by Flubbernugget »

In post 110, Thor665 wrote:I just don't get the idea behind telling him 'yo, stop doing A and I'll read you townish'.
The general idea is that calling something out makes someone less likely to do it. Even if penguin is scum, they've now lost a tool to bog the thread down with bullshit.
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Post Post #112 (ISO) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:16 am

Post by Flubbernugget »

There's also the point that I never said anything about townreading penguin. Ever.
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Post Post #113 (ISO) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:18 am

Post by Flubbernugget »

I think an example of a timing tell with an explanation of why it worked and how it applies to this game and an example of a timing tell that didn't work with an explanation of how it doesn't apply to this game wouldn't take much effort, and would be useful in discerning your alignment.

Do you agree?
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Post Post #114 (ISO) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:54 am

Post by Beefster »

In post 105, Flubbernugget wrote:
In post 102, Beefster wrote:
In post 98, Flubbernugget wrote:Bella votes are pro town atm
Not sure how I feel about this post. On the one hand, I can see possible scum in Bella, but on the other hand, it looks slightly manipulative.

VOTE: Flubber

Pinging me just a bit stronger than thor.
So, calling a scum read from one post is always an easy case to fake.

Would you like to elaborate on how it's manipulative? Because there's nothing in that post that says there's consequences for disagreeing with me, and I'm certainly not buddying anyone with it
You can call it fake if you want, but it's not based on one post. I suspected you before that.

It's manipulative in the sense that it paints a specific lynch as the right thing to do. Only slightly though.
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Post Post #115 (ISO) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:01 am

Post by Beefster »

In post 103, Thor665 wrote:
In post 87, Beefster wrote:You're case is built around Penguin's status as a queue moderator. I don't think that's very sportsmanlike and reeks of typical garbage reasons used by scum.
My case has literally nothing to do with his status as queue moderator.
His defense has everything to do with it.
So how is my case built around it exactly?
Turns out I misread. You're absolutely right.

That changes a lot, actually. It basically flips my reads on Thor and PP.

This Flubber v Thor argument makes me more comfortable with my vote.
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Post Post #116 (ISO) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:39 am

Post by Flubbernugget »

If I was saying Bella was the right lynch, then I'd be voting them, yes?
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Post Post #117 (ISO) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:41 am

Post by Flubbernugget »

I'm also curious as to why you now think penguin was dishonest about their mod activities
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Post Post #118 (ISO) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:23 am

Post by Maxous »

In post 79, HeWhoSwims wrote:What did you mean by "I'm not reading" if I may ask...?
PP said something about the back end of the site which he was working on
, that's a viable reason to be online during the start, no? I didn't feel there was any other clarification as to why he was online and as I said I don't think posting early is necessarily AI.
yes it is.
but if we go back to your quote -
In post 62, HeWhoSwims wrote:Uh, I think the argument for the first poster to be scum is weak :?
Penguin might've just been around when the game started, or had an email notification,
or was doing mod stuff...
i think you were skimming the argument at best, which caught my eye

bolded for emphasis
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Post Post #119 (ISO) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:28 am

Post by Klick »

Maxous, what's your opinion on the interactions between Flubber and Thor over the last page?
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Post Post #120 (ISO) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:32 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 111, Flubbernugget wrote:
In post 110, Thor665 wrote:I just don't get the idea behind telling him 'yo, stop doing A and I'll read you townish'.
The general idea is that calling something out makes someone less likely to do it. Even if penguin is scum, they've now lost a tool to bog the thread down with bullSmurf.
Eh, your commentary felt like clear defense of him and attack on me even on re-read.
Also, I'll reference this below.
In post 113, Flubbernugget wrote:I think an example of a timing tell with an explanation of why it worked and how it applies to this game and an example of a timing tell that didn't work with an explanation of how it doesn't apply to this game wouldn't take much effort, and would be useful in discerning your alignment.

Do you agree?
No, I totally disagree because all that's asking me to do is make general game references about something that I fail to see why I'd lie about as scum considering everything I've ever said about scumhunting and how it works.
But I'm game to play your tune for a bit just to see how you field it.

An example of a timing tell that didn't work and how it doesn't apply to this game I would reference a game wherein I was scum and was going V/LA. Since we were near LYLO I left instructions with the mod as to who my NK would be in assorted situations. Town opted to 'test' me by arranging a quick lynch. Since I leave my site activity public. In LYLO town became convinced I couldn't be the last scum and cross voted, so I returned from my vacation, logged in, and got the easy win.

That is different from this game...well, in basically every way imaginable, but the obvious one is that since Penguin actually posted - we know he was physically here and posting.

For an example that worked, I was in a game once where a scum (Bella if I recall correctly) was lurking and had a claim against them that they had done so to avoid participating in a buddy's lynch (which was straight up true as they had been active elsewhere). It saturated for a time and eventually got them lynched, I remember it mostly because I was also scum (in a different team) and used it to help clear me after the flip.

It's applies to this game because it disproves your bone-headed claim that timing can't work as a scum tell, and then forces one to ask 'well, is Penguin's action and defense of it scummy in some way?' to which the answer is yes, and you *also* are now claiming that you find his defense potentially scummy, so it makes me wonder why you're wasting my time.
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Post Post #121 (ISO) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:34 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 81, Thor665 wrote:
In post 78, Maxous wrote:
In post 73, Thor665 wrote:Looking at in in ISO I look forward to these leans being described.
really.

i thought moneybags in particular has some good early-game posts.
> he's clarifying thoughts on all the situations
> playing devil's advocate to multiple people
> while not pushing any lynch agendas

what more do you want.
Well, what "more" I want would be an answer to what I asked.
Your reads on Penguin and Call.
I didn't ask about Moneybags.
@Maxous.
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Post Post #122 (ISO) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:36 am

Post by mozamis »

In post 66, HeWhoSwims wrote: I can see why you get vague impressions but I don't think they'll be helpful to the game... someone isn't scum or town based on the way they cast a vote in RVS or say hello to competitors :? so having impressions is okay, but why mention them as you said?
so you saying you suspect Mavous or not. I dont like this, it seems like vague scummy shade throwing.
(@ - whoever: my vote wa semi serious - he did seem a bit self conscious, but obv. it wasnt a massive strong read - but i am now happy with it as a serious vote).
Lets get some votes on He whoswims.
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Post Post #123 (ISO) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:40 am

Post by Maxous »

In post 94, PenguinPower wrote:
In post 78, Maxous wrote:> while not pushing any lynch agendas
Not pushing anything makes him a town lean? Why?
because if he's helping push good discussion along without having a particular lynch agenda than that is objectively pro-town behaviour
In post 95, Klick wrote:
In post 71, Maxous wrote:uhh real mountain out of a molehill here guys.

i just felt Athena and Penguin were a bit towny in the first couple of posts. I didn't mention names because i wanted to avoid the Q&A but it happened anyway.

I have more solid town leans on Moneybags and Mozamis by this stage.
This post throws me off. It feels as though Maxous is trying to shrug everything off and dissuade the line of discussion as much as he can, posting everything necessary to get the heat off of him, as though checking through a list.
well sure maybe, but why's that particularly scum-motivated?

i'm obviously not encouraging a wagon on myself and I *am* helping with reads

-
caught up.
don't really feel like voting Beefster anymore.

VOTE: Bellaphant

for now
I felt like she could of said a little more in the previous post
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Post Post #124 (ISO) » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:44 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 121, Thor665 wrote:
In post 81, Thor665 wrote:
In post 78, Maxous wrote:
In post 73, Thor665 wrote:Looking at in in ISO I look forward to these leans being described.
really.

i thought moneybags in particular has some good early-game posts.
> he's clarifying thoughts on all the situations
> playing devil's advocate to multiple people
> while not pushing any lynch agendas

what more do you want.
Well, what "more" I want would be an answer to what I asked.
Your reads on Penguin and Call.
I didn't ask about Moneybags.
@Maxous.
@Maxous (if you're intentionally avoiding answering please let me know so I can stop reposting the question).

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