Team Mafia 2018: White Flag — Day Six

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm taking this a lot slower now Eddie, starting from the beginning. I'll get back to LQ eventually.
It takes me a lot of effort to get good reads and I'm going to put that effort in instead of just hoping that everything will magically become clear to me because I am Llamarble.

Yeah, you have fired from the hip an awful lot, so I think I am just going to take your opinion with a grain of salt.

[Dunnstral]

Oh also dunn either needs replacement or votes.

Nope, 48 hour prod timer. Also it's a little annoying that you're whining about this.

Gamma jumping all over my vote, the way he agrees with Llama about it being a bus feels scummy and the way he projects onto me about hopping on wagons feels scummy as well (something he did with both Marquis and me I believe)

Postie is leaning entirely too much on "my teammates think this and this" It's like she's detaching herself from the game. Also, this is totally what she would be doing as scum here I bet. I'm scumreading her.

[Thestatusquo]

Do you plan to post once every 48 hours?

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Postie

I think she deserves votes. the way she's stepping back and referencing her teammates just feels scum driven to me

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: Postie

I think she deserves votes. the way she's stepping back and referencing her teammates just feels scum driven to me

Completely disagree. Your vote should be on GE, not Postie.

[ActionDan]

About 125, I felt the vote by Dunn was a bus so I was like "yeah there was bussing, so what". As for LQ's post, I guess that's a reasonable expectation, but there's also the fact that it was a common thread in the post, so I kinda didn't think anything was up with that one in particular.
As for the sauce read, I hadn't really seen much of him yet in that first post. By the time I posted 231 I had gotten to see what he was like more.
Why are you getting a townread from TSQ in the 1v1?

If you didn't think there was something funky with LQ's assessment of Dunn's vote you would not have called him out on it, despite it sharing a similar structure to his assessments on Llmarble's and Postie's votes.

Can you explain how the additional posts of Sauce in-between 105 and 231 drastically changed your view of him as a contender for your vote into someone that someone else might townread?

I see honest scum hunting from TSQ in posts 254 and 265. It's actually good he missed your unvote, as I think I wouldn't have as clear a picture as I do now than if he hadn't.

[northsidegal]

@lycan, who are your top townreads so far?

Also some questions from the aforementioned teammate: why didn't you believe nsg's self-meta, and why did you write Marquis off as null?

I dont believe anyones self meta, especially when its presented in as an attempt to answer an attack on them.

i'd like to say again that i haven't done any self-meta this game, nor was the comment tsq is interpreting as self-meta an attempt to answer an attack on me – it was a defense of postie and a statement to llamarble that i didn't think his tells made any sense. the "if i were scum" was meant as a turn of phrase as to what i think scum would be more likely to do moreso than a comment relating to myself.

Full stop right here. There is pretty much NOTHING that says you can use to conclude that was a bus vote. It's a gut read and a stretch at that. There are reasons to Scum read you if you say stuff like this.

i think this is a mistake, and i think you made the same mistake in your initial analysis of the wagon – just because dunnstral didn't say anything else or other people didn't make a lot of comments on their votes, that doesn't mean that there's nothing to analyze. the lack of comment is information in itself. i agree with others in that your analysis in 199 is largely superficial, but i'm not entirely sure how it relates to your alignment as of yet.

NSG, if you were scum, how do you think that post of yours would have been different? (ended after 'entrance was forced?' or another thought to make it a more complete post? Or simply the same?)

yeah, i doubt i would have put the comment to postie there in an effort to try to avoid conflict. (i have now done self-meta, at someone else's explicit request).

@cogito ergo sum, who are you scumreading and why?

[northsidegal]

also, i'm pretty much of the opposite opinion to dan when it comes to the tsq/gamma interaction – i think gamma's suspicion on dunn is very easily explained by a confusion of the order of events when it comes to dunn's vote vs the rest of the marquis wagon whereas i think tsq's push there feels opportunistic. mathdino agrees with me here, and he thinks the same "predatory" or "gotcha fishing"-style was visible in tsq's posts to me.

[LicketyQuickety]

Full stop right here. There is pretty much NOTHING that says you can use to conclude that was a bus vote. It's a gut read and a stretch at that. There are reasons to Scum read you if you say stuff like this.

i think this is a mistake, and i think you made the same mistake in your initial analysis of the wagon – just because dunnstral didn't say anything else or other people didn't make a lot of comments on their votes, that doesn't mean that there's nothing to analyze. the lack of comment is information in itself. i agree with others in that your analysis in 199 is largely superficial, but i'm not entirely sure how it relates to your alignment as of yet.

OK, really tho, if you want to take that angle, you are already assuming a Town motivation for Dunn, when there is no indication of such. You can't read into naked votes in terms of motivation because it lacks any sort of internal context. What's worse than just assuming Dunn is Town voting a SR, is to say Dunn is Bussing. I mean that is such a leap of logic, it's not even funny. Like where is the evidence for that, at all?

Now if someone wants to point out an error of logic I have made in stating that you can't analyze naked votes, then I expect a full explanation as to how you can assume someone making a naked vote is Town with regards to the context of the vote and what is happening ITT.

This is all I can really do to analyze Dunn's vote on Marqu:

Marq randomly votes North.
Marq bitches about the game which is evidence that their previous vote was just a random vote on someone who had tied the amount of posts as someone else.
Postie asks Marqu why they voted north. Postie had voted North pretty much as soon as North entered the thread which was a single post before Marqu's naked vote.
Marqu says "prolly the same reason you did" which further implies the vote was random considering it's still RVS at this point.
Marqu makes an completely ambiguous reads list considering they had Postie at the top and North at that bottom and everyone else in the middle as Null. This is Marqu trying to get the game going IMO, which is not necessarily a Town tell, but is more of an indication of Town than Scum.
Then there is some surface level observation by Postie and North. It's still RVS.
Then Dunn votes Marqu.

The only pattern I can see is that people are voting active players and that's about all I can really say about it. It doesn't say anything about anyone's alignments at all.

[northsidegal]

i wasn't saying that naked votes are town, i was just saying that there are always questions you can ask about something, no matter how minimal the content. it's more theory than game relevant so i'm not going to go much further into it.

[ActionDan]

also, i'm pretty much of the opposite opinion to dan when it comes to the tsq/gamma interaction – i think gamma's suspicion on dunn is very easily explained by a confusion of the order of events when it comes to dunn's vote vs the rest of the marquis wagon whereas i think tsq's push there feels opportunistic. mathdino agrees with me here, and he thinks the same "predatory" or "gotcha fishing"-style was visible in tsq's posts to me.

I agree that Gamma probably thought Dunn's vote on Marquis came in the middle of the wagon or at least not the first vote (although I wouldn't say that suspicion on Dunn for this is completely warranted per se), but I disagree with you and Dino that TSQ was predatory at any point.

Do you (or MathDino if he's following along) have thoughts about my 282 which is largely outside TSQ/Gamma interactions?

[Tchill13]

VOTE: Postie

I think she deserves votes. the way she's stepping back and referencing her teammates just feels scum driven to me

Completely disagree. Your vote should be on GE, not Postie.

Why GE? Postie feels like they're too worried about the wording of their post.

[Thestatusquo]

also, i'm pretty much of the opposite opinion to dan when it comes to the tsq/gamma interaction – i think gamma's suspicion on dunn is very easily explained by a confusion of the order of events when it comes to dunn's vote vs the rest of the marquis wagon whereas i think tsq's push there feels opportunistic. mathdino agrees with me here, and he thinks the same "predatory" or "gotcha fishing"-style was visible in tsq's posts to me.

I had included him in my list of people I was planning on pushing on before that and that is not the only reason for me voting him. dig deeper here. my issue is not that the vote can't be explained, but rather that the vote needs to be explained, because he was still pushing it as the only thing in the game that he was actively pushing on. the fact that hes still talking about a naked rvs vote when there is 10+ pages of content to dig into as his most interested in the game and most active sorting attempt is what I am scum reading, not the fact that he was wrong about it. (although that certainly doesn't help the point.) I think this is abundantly clear from my posts.

[northsidegal]

VOTE: Postie

I think she deserves votes. the way she's stepping back and referencing her teammates just feels scum driven to me

Completely disagree. Your vote should be on GE, not Postie.

Why GE? Postie feels like they're too worried about the wording of their post.

i think it's more of a sentiment of "reading dunnstral's posts, from what he's saying his vote should be on ge, not postie", which is what i was feeling with regards to that.

@dan, will get to a response in a second

[northsidegal]

also, i'm pretty much of the opposite opinion to dan when it comes to the tsq/gamma interaction – i think gamma's suspicion on dunn is very easily explained by a confusion of the order of events when it comes to dunn's vote vs the rest of the marquis wagon whereas i think tsq's push there feels opportunistic. mathdino agrees with me here, and he thinks the same "predatory" or "gotcha fishing"-style was visible in tsq's posts to me.

I had included him in my list of people I was planning on pushing on before that and that is not the only reason for me voting him. dig deeper here. my issue is not that the vote can't be explained, but rather that the vote needs to be explained, because he was still pushing it as the only thing in the game that he was actively pushing on. the fact that hes still talking about a naked rvs vote when there is 10+ pages of content to dig into as his most interested in the game and most active sorting attempt is what I am scum reading, not the fact that he was wrong about it. (although that certainly doesn't help the point.) I think this is abundantly clear from my posts.

will also respond to this in a second – first, though, are you still scumreading me? this question isn't as banal as it may seem, it's important.

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: Postie

I think she deserves votes. the way she's stepping back and referencing her teammates just feels scum driven to me

Completely disagree. Your vote should be on GE, not Postie.

Why GE? Postie

feels

like they're too worried about the wording of their post.

IDGAF what something feels like. Feels means pretty much nothing in this game.

If you can say exactly what Postie said that makes you feel that way, and it has some solid backing on it, I'll reconsider. But just stating something feel a certain way means pretty much nothing to me.

And North had the exact interpretation that I mean, and the fact that they are point that out is a decent indication that they are Town.

[Thestatusquo]

not as much, but I'm still leery. I don't think you've actually tried to use rvs and randomness to avoid accountability which is what I was worried about when I voted for you. I'm not super happy with your overall contribution to the game, but I have several people I want to go after before you.

[Postie]

I would never use this argument because it lacks anything concrete, but Mulch said that Llama should fuck off with their SR on us.

Did he give a reason for his reaction? If not, can you ask him? Does he think you've been particularly towny?

[LicketyQuickety]

I would never use this argument because it lacks anything concrete, but Mulch said that Llama should fuck off with their SR on us.

Did he give a reason for his reaction? If not, can you ask him? Does he think you've been particularly towny?

Mulch says I've been Townie and that I should not be read based on tone. He also says that he was pissed off when he made the original comment.

[LicketyQuickety]

I would never use this argument because it lacks anything concrete, but Mulch said that Llama should fuck off with their SR on us.

Did he give a reason for his reaction? If not, can you ask him? Does he think you've been particularly towny?

Mulch says I've been Townie and that I should not be read based on tone. He also says that he was pissed off when he made the original comment.

He also said first that I should be read based on my style of play, which I think is more accurate than reading me on tone because I believe I am very easy to read based on tone if you have decent meta on me. That said, my playstyle has changed a bit. I can link games to show this. The change I have tried to make is to not be as much of a jerk, to not fire from the hip as much and think more about the conclusions I am making before I make them, and try not to get so emotionally invested in games.

[Tchill13]

LQ I was afraid you had gotten more pleasant to play with since our last encounter lol. Her posts seem very methodical. Also what's the point in not giving postie scum if they're bad at scum but can be coached through the game?

[Postie]

Hey Dunn, how many games have you played with RC and what is your general opinion of RC's townplay?
I will explain the relevance of this shortly.

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ I was afraid you had gotten more pleasant to play with since our last encounter lol. Her posts seem very methodical. Also what's the point in not giving postie scum if they're bad at scum but can be coached through the game?

What do you mean they seem more methodical? This is the same thing as saying Posties post's feel a certain way. I have no idea what you are talking about unless you show your work. Otherwise I am going to do what newbs do and look to see if I can see the angle that Posties posts look methodical and then I would ofc see that angle and think you are right.

Postie could be being coached. I am not ruling that out. It's especially true if Postie is on RC's team. I already thought of that, I just didn't comment on it because it's pretty much impossible to prove.

[Postie]

Unpopular opinion: I think Gamma's town.

Ok but why are you voting dunn? Your vote for him is nonsense and there's a lot of scum motivation to park on the lurker who is literally doing nothing, and then make a big show about it as if you had some hyper special read on him and you didn't understand why others didn't. What do you think about the literal anything else thats happened in this game? Why do you think that dunn is the best vote when there is so much going on? Why were you unaware that it wasn't a wagon vote when you've placed your entire sorting efforts in this game into figuring out what happened in that one random early vote?

Okaaaay you're blowing this way out of proportion and I don't like it. I literally unvoted the second I realized my mistake. And the reason I thought there was a wagon there was I remembered votes on someone Llalmarble suspected, and knew some people were suspecting Marquis, so I thought the votes were on her. I get that there is some scumminess to what I did, but I didn't just votepark, I actually thought I had a point. And I've asked other questions and made other reads, so what I'm seeing here is you boiling down my content to one misguided push. Given that and the fact Something_Smart is telling me not to trust you, I feel comfortable with this.
VOTE: TheStatusQuo

The vote here and the way he questions TSQ's motives in this post and the ones following feels like it comes from a place of genuine frustration at not being understood.

[LicketyQuickety]

Unpopular opinion: I think Gamma's town.

OK, so why do you, Postie, have an unpopular opinion?