Team Mafia 2018: Inventions Mafia Day 4

[RadiantCowbells]

I townread Mastina and I believe I have good reasons to do so and what Chesskid has given in terms of reasons so far has been objectively shit.
If he has a magic tell here, on Mastina no less who is objectively not a player Elli should be scared of as scum, he can out it.

[RadiantCowbells]

I expect a lot of flak postgame regardless of anyone's alignments and I accept getting lynched if Mastina is in fact scum but I would have absolutely no regrets about what I've done.
I think that Mastina has been objectively out of her scum range. I have asked everyone who thinks that she is scum to actually give me reasons and I have got nothing.

What I do have is a player who is not used to being told no by people who came up with a magic 100% scumread tell and started screaming about a guilty when they couldn't get the wagon going.
And as a matter of principle that's not something I am willing to be a party to. Actions should have consequences and I doubt there'll be a lot of games where Chesskid will actually face any.
At the risk of being called out for preparing for his town flip, whether he is scum or town has been immaterial to me for a long time, I'm just not okay with his play.

I am the poster child of 'welp im rc' and this game is many notches below what I would ever stoop to.

[Aneninen]

I've read Errant's catchup. Although I seriously disagree with some of his reads (eg. Cheeky as town, Katyusha as scum, dafuq?), I can see a town mindset behind his posts.

On the other hand

I'm good for either. Would still prefer Kat lynch. Ellitell doesn't have any particular bearing on me. I wouldn't mind lynching you then mastina and it worries me that people aren't really considering that option.
At this point I don't really have a read on mastina. (Ugh, now it's more town than anything) There's just too much to piece through and getting caught up is my first priority, I'll go back and give things another glance.

Please, elaborate.
You're good for either lynches. If you don't believe in "Ellitell", why do you think we should consider Chesskid's idea? Especially if you have no real read on Mastina and Chesskid was in your "in the middle" list.

Hi EP, thank you for obv. Towning

. Could you please take a look at the last few Aneninen/Cheeky interactions and tell me what you think of it?

I'd like to ask the same, Errant. (Any actually everyone else who haven't checked it yet.)
I don't like the underlined part either. Why need a townie thank someone for a townread?
Also, 1668, 1683, 1706, 1717. She wanted to ask for a swap from her team then she realized it couldn't happen. That's not the same as RC's pre-game swap. Didn't she know that they had used up the swap? If not: If se were annoyed at RC and Chesskid, wouldn't she think that another player would be just as annoyed? Plus, electing self meanwhile? That seems to be a fake-ragequit for me.


From now on, I'm ignoring Chesskid as long as he's posting about his Elli-idea. Show me why Mastina is scum

by using her posts

or:

A: You make a full readlist by putting everyone into it

That!

And, again, even if they’re not entirely accurate I see zero reason to not at least out the other tells (e.g., “Anen let out a weak scumtell of theirs”). Just who and what. There’s literally zero reason to not share and it only helps your credibility

THAT!

Also, what's the plan behind electing Reckoner? I could sheep that, but I need some explanation first.

[CheekyTeeky]

Speaking of policy lynches, I'm just going to put this out there: If mastina hasn't caught up by EOD we should PL her. I'm of the Idfk opinion on mastina vs Chess. It's really a scummy vibe/lack of live interaction player vs a wifom open wolfing player. So I think flipping either of these will indeed open up the game, I don't really care which one as they're both spammers and suspect imo. If I think from an optimal play viewpoint, mastina is probably the best option if I assume I know nothing about the alignments of mastina, Chess and RC because the following lynch pattern will be less detrimental to town. Instead of having to lynch all 3 we only have to lynch 2 if mastina flips scum or town.

I don't believe mastina is out of her scum range at all. I don't believe Chess or RC are either. I'll admit I don't know all players as well as RC might but I have seen a mastina scum game and effort != town, what points to the possibility of her being town is her revaluation of slots as her catch up dialogues progress. Her read changes mostly make sense but it's obviously not complete and we need her interacting with all of us to clear her as town. If EP can catch up that quick then mastina can too, she doesn't need the elaborate waffle to do so, it's just getting in the way. It's urgent that she makes being up to date a priority because we do need to lynch within you 3 OR find a hider solution to solve it before D2.

[RadiantCowbells]

Reck, you probably want to skip this if you hate Mastina's posts so much.

As it happens I did my own research and Elli's tool does appear to have a solid success rate. Noting that that is used by Eli and I consider Chesskid an unreliable narrator at this point. The idea that he would actually refuse to have chesskid give out this tell here in a situation where it's literally been the determining factor of a high profile game feels wrong. I cannot say whether anyone else on his team has been using tool results, but you can check that for yourself. To me the statistical probability that a tool relevant result popped up in Mastina's first eight posts in one game and X, where X is the other relevant results that have popped up over five games is abysmal. That to me is an extraordinary claim and it requires evidence. And Chesskid claims to not be so arrogant as to fakeclaim a result like this, but I think even a cursory effort to understand his personality suggests otherwise.

Unrelated to that point is the fact that I think the entire concept undermines the game of mafia. I believe that I can stay ahead of it because I systematically rotate through different metas and make conscious decisions to approach different games differently in ways that most people don't. But this has the potential to get really ahead of itself and if this advances to a certain point I think that the entire game of mafia is at stake. When you get a program that gets really sophisticated it's going to measure everything. Posting frequency, words per post, structure of posts, frequency of contractions, whatever, not just the content like Ellibereth's does. And I think these are going to be both infinitely more accurate and infinitely more difficult to deceive. I have been told that I can largely fool Elli for now but eventually as more and more things get tracked there isn't going to be any way around it. And even if I can never be caught via machine, when 8/13 of the game can be all of a sudden it doesn't matter and any townie who can't be locked town becomes a liability to the team they're on. It's the same reason I abhor people who deliberately only tryhard as one alignment, at some point it becomes basically trust telling to me. I have to go to ridiculously stupid lengths to regulate my self meta to be able to even play games as town. Surprise to everyone: I don't freak omgus because that's my personality, I do it because with the extremely high barrier to townreading me if people weren't afraid to vote me I would get lynched an incredible amount. And then you have people like, say, Creature whom are deterministically publicly flipped day 1, at the cost of people who roll scum with him being basically fucked if his survival matters. Now imagine mafiascum when it gets to a point where, say, 3/13 players in any game are going to have their alignments determined by third party programs. All of a sudden you have three Creatures on a team and the entire experience of mafia is largely cheapened for it. Move forward a few months of revisions and you're up to 5/13 and only two town need to be caught by actual players. Eventually the meta of scum comes down to getting fake innos on you from these tools, but incredibly few players will take scum seriously enough to rigorously self manage not just in the way I already do but to an extent that I would find incredibly daunting. And those who are capable of that, everyone will know that they are capable of that, and they will become policy lynch worthy. In a sense it just extends the game of mafia because fundamentally you can fool people or you can fool machines, but I think fooling machines will eventually become much much harder to the point that there might not be much of a point in even playing text mafia. And I love this game. But I don't love this particular game and the future I see of everyone throwing tool guilties around like chesskid breaks my heart.

I think that as a site we need to realize this has the potential to go somewhere we really, really don't want it to go, and should start thinking about what this actually means for the game now.

[RadiantCowbells]

And Cheeky if you would consider voting me because of my townread on Mastina being wrong or because Chesskid is calling me scum that makes me sad.

[Aneninen]

Cheeky

,
let me get it. You don't have a read on Mastina nor Chesskid. Your vote is on Chesskid. And you suggest Mastina getting policy lynched if she doesn't catch up. And you call her a spammer.
I can't see a town mindset behind this.
Could anyone who's townreading her explain me why?

Also,
We are not policy lynching anyone. Period.

[CheekyTeeky]

I don't like the underlined part either. Why need a townie thank someone for a townread?

Stop spinning shit. You continue to misrep me, I've obv. towned you're just incriminating yourself now.

I mean it's blatantly clear that I'm confused af in this game with all my vote changes and to-ing and fro-ing on reads and associations. I am genuinely appreciative of EP being obv. town in all this mess. I didn't NEED to I wanted to, because as you should have also noticed I tend to speak my mind. You need to pay more attention because you need to explain how my actions come from scum because some of them really, really never do.

For example - getting Chess and RC to settle the fuck down NEVER comes from scum. Scum might complain about it but they'll do nothing because that spam shit benefits them. Why would scum me ever do that?

And you said earlier that I get scummier and scummier which is so out of line with most of the players perception of me that you need to properly reassess your read before you continue bothering me with your shitty points. If you're town, which I highly doubt at this point.

Like as soon as we've sorted the mastina/chess/RC mess you're next buddy.

[CheekyTeeky]

Cheeky

,
let me get it. You don't have a read on Mastina nor Chesskid. Your vote is on Chesskid. And you suggest Mastina getting policy lynched if she doesn't catch up. And you call her a spammer.
I can't see a town mindset behind this.
Could anyone who's townreading her explain me why?

Also,
We are not policy lynching anyone. Period.

start from page 1. Try again.

[CheekyTeeky]

And Cheeky if you would consider voting me because of my townread on Mastina being wrong or because Chesskid is calling me scum that makes me sad.

We can deal with that when it comes to it. Why are you ignoring Aneninen?

[RadiantCowbells]

And Cheeky if you would consider voting me because of my townread on Mastina being wrong or because Chesskid is calling me scum that makes me sad.

We can deal with that when it comes to it. Why are you ignoring Aneninen?

Because I think that both of you are town and don't really have the heart to tell you both to fuck off and work together right now.

[Aneninen]

RadiantCowbells, what you said in your 2304 is something that I 100% agree with.

[RadiantCowbells]

Adenine is the kind of person who is rigorous about progressions. He's kind of like Thor in that sense.
He sees a lot of stuff as not alignment indicative, evidenced by the scumread on Hindu who is objectively scummy as fuck but in terms of emotional content there's good reasons to townread him.
Everything that makes you towny is something that he does not put stock in or sees, and you freaking out at him for scumreading you when he feels your progressions are scummy, justifiedly so, sets him at you.

I am having trouble placing him as locktown simply because scum has to be somewhere and there's so many people that I find ridiculously unlikely to be scum, but I think that largely you are scumreading him because you play the game on two separate wavelengths and the same works for him.

[Katyusha]

RadiantCowbells, what you said in your 2304 is something that I 100% agree with.

+1

And chesskid if that’s all you’re going to give me, then it’s time:

VOTE: chesskid

There’s no town reason to withhold your other notes here. I can understand not explaining mastina’s or anyone else’s tells, but simply stating which reads you have based on tells is unacceptable? I’m calling bullshit

We’re doing this.

[Katyusha]

I have more I want to call out unrelated to chesskid but it’ll wait

[CheekyTeeky]

And Cheeky if you would consider voting me because of my townread on Mastina being wrong or because Chesskid is calling me scum that makes me sad.

We can deal with that when it comes to it. Why are you ignoring Aneninen?

Because I think that both of you are town and don't really have the heart to tell you both to fuck off and work together right now.

Pft you had the heart to tell me about other players so really this is a load of crap and why I'm struggling to get a locktown read on you.

[Aneninen]

Cheeky

. I'm not misrepresenting you. But let's assume for a split second that I'm misinterpreting you. Since I have to work meanwhile, I can't promise that I'll re-ISO you today. So, those who are townreading her could point it out for me what towntells I haven't found (or misinterpreted).

[Aneninen]

UNVOTE:

[CheekyTeeky]

Cheeky

. I'm not misrepresenting you. But let's assume for a split second that I'm misinterpreting you. Since I have to work meanwhile, I can't promise that I'll re-ISO you today. So, those who are townreading her could point it out for me what towntells I haven't found (or misinterpreted).

You're 100% misrepping me. There's zero assumption needed.

[Aneninen]

Alternatively, Chesskid could use his "Elli-tell" to check if Cheeky or me are scum. TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

[Aneninen]

Cheeky

. I'm not misrepresenting you. But let's assume for a split second that I'm misinterpreting you. Since I have to work meanwhile, I can't promise that I'll re-ISO you today. So, those who are townreading her could point it out for me what towntells I haven't found (or misinterpreted).

You're 100% misrepping me. There's zero assumption needed.

If

you're town, it's indeed 100%. If not, it's either 0% or I'm scumreading the right person for wrong reasons.
That'swhy I'm asking others about you.

[CheekyTeeky]

Alternatively, Chesskid could use his "Elli-tell" to check if Cheeky or me are scum. TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

Zomg this post is terrible! No scumhunting!

[Aneninen]

Got the joke.
But. One slow-moving, stubborn, pigeon-posting idiotic Aneninen is enough for this game, Cheeky. I don't think we need another one. ^_^

[RadiantCowbells]

And Cheeky if you would consider voting me because of my townread on Mastina being wrong or because Chesskid is calling me scum that makes me sad.

We can deal with that when it comes to it. Why are you ignoring Aneninen?

Because I think that both of you are town and don't really have the heart to tell you both to fuck off and work together right now.

Pft you had the heart to tell me about other players so really this is a load of crap and why I'm struggling to get a locktown read on you.

The simple answer is that I just couldn't.
I can force myself to produce content but if I force myself to produce content.
There's a reason that I stall days as long as I can and that I go dormant for long periods. Sometimes I just don't want to or can't start explaining reads.
My mind isn't wired to be in work mode 24/7 and having been forced to go toe to toe with Chesskid for days on end was incredibly exhausting.
I could not have given you a good answer to that question when you first asked it, besides to say fuck off. I needed time for it to sit in my head and for me to get my energy back.
I don't actually know what in my head causes me to be able to give reads on one player while being completely unable to wrap my head around another, but it's a thing.
If you either do not believe or do not understand the answer I'm giving you, I would like you to go read some of my recent town games, such as Organization XIII.
Failing that, I want you to query your team on how often I choose to ignore questions or completely avoid attempting to gamesolve for substantial periods.
This is not accidental, this is just how I play the game. I chose to wait until a period like now when my head is clear.

[RadiantCowbells]

Cheeky

. I'm not misrepresenting you. But let's assume for a split second that I'm misinterpreting you. Since I have to work meanwhile, I can't promise that I'll re-ISO you today. So, those who are townreading her could point it out for me what towntells I haven't found (or misinterpreted).

You're 100% misrepping me. There's zero assumption needed.

Please point out where you feel that he is misrepresenting you so I can either mediate this or determine that he is actually misrepping you.