Team Mafia 2018: White Flag — Day Six

[Llamarble]

Mmk.
VOTE: Tchill

[LicketyQuickety]

Mmk.
VOTE: Tchill

Mulch wants me to ask you why you are SRing me.

[Lycanfire]

Llamarble if I called the scumteam as Marquis+ActionDan+CES what would be your opinion?

I don't see anything wrong with these choices, particularly CES + AD I can believe. CES is going after Marquis with a decent amount of energy, but not enough to rule out the pairing.

You didn't really need to make 5 posts just to make like one interesting point, 'marble. Come on, if you're going to unvote lurkerscum, please be a good example in a different way. Also, I suggest you ask fferyllt about Marquis.

3) again it's literally been a day. i know i didn't post when i said i would (oh no someone didn't keep their word on ms.net) but like. come on. it's not 2005. lurking isn't a scumtell (if anything the scum meta is spamposting but i'll cut off because i'm not sure if that applies here yet). town has just as much motivation to not want to deal with things. case in point i pretty much played overwatch all last night because i really didn't feel like coming into d1 scumreads/votes on me and trying to defend myself.

I see the same mechanisms protecting you as I'm used to seeing, so I care very little about your generalities about the current meta. I do like how you point out that it should barely count as lurking in a few different ways only to undercut it by admitting you lurked intentionally.

Is that supposed to excuse your earlier scummitude

?

LQ still looks town to me. Lots of posts I've glossed over admittedly and I probably could use to recheck my read there,

but I don't see the scummitude others do

.

None of Marquis' recent posts look to me as anything other than null, and certainly not giving me town vibes for the language, emotion or any content within as suggested by Gamma. In fact the time spent making those posts could have been used to read the thread, as I'm sure Marquis is aware.

Tchill lack of anything not Postie related after he thought certain posts of hers looked townie is now a concern of mine. That said recognizing that at least some of her posts have merit to them is an encouraging sign and I maintain previous to that his thought processes didn't strike me as particularly scummy.

I still don't know where CES stands in his reads this game and don't know why he thought Marquis was scummy to begin with earlier before the lurking.

I still don't know where CES stands in his reads this game and don't know why he thought Marquis was scummy to begin with earlier before the lurking.

Yeah, things aren't really going quite as planned

; I thought things would develop more helpfully. The main reasons I found Marquis scummy very early on were 1) his general awkward tone early on and 2) the whole "representative" affectation. I think Signs and Void from last Team Mafia is pretty important context here - his early posts here feel really similar. I think both of those things are more significant than his lurking although his lurking has also felt scum-motivated (but I'd be more hard-pressed to explain the nuts and bolts of that feeling).

[LicketyQuickety]

Why no conclusion?

[MathBlade]

Votecount 1.18

Tchill13(4)

~ Thestatusquo, northsidegal, LicketyQuickety, Llamarble

Marquis(3)

~ Davsto, Cogito Ergo Sum, Dunnstral

Thestatusquo(1)

~ Sauce

northsidegal(1)

~ Marquis

Gamma Emerald(1)

~ ActionDan

EddieFenix(1)

~ Postie

Davsto(1)

~ Tchill13

Cogito Ergo Sum(1)

~ Lycanfire


Not Voting (2): Gamma Emerald, EddieFenix

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2018-02-04 21:00:00)

[Lycanfire]

q&a period

if i miss your question it was probably stupid

BLANKET ANSWER

"6 suspects" / "no CES" in post 430.

Nobody gets upset with someone that gives 11 towns 2 nulls in a mini. They might get upset with which reads fall onto certain people. Saying I can't find >3 people scummy at any given time is disingenuous. I placed a big-ass disclaimer at the beginning of my post that I didn't care about calling a team, working with a theory, and that I was going to put town or scum on everyone. Deal with it. Regarding the lack of CES, if you look closely I spell out "Vote CES" if you apply the Fibonacci sequence to every paragraph.

.... No, seriously, CES is clearly on my mind when I put Tchill in scum territory just for discounting the possibilities of CES. My first point was something I couldn't make heads or tails of, so he landed there purely as a result of my second point. All I was doing was making reads off of interesting developments within 3-4 pages. Deal with it.

Lycan, in your 225, do you not think your conclusion that CES is opportunistic scum jumping on Llmarble is example of what you described as "feely bullshit" since it seems to me you don't have a reasonable basis to conclude either that Llmarble talked himself up to rile up scum or that CES voted him in reaction to it as CES hardly gave much of a reason for his Llmarble vote in the first place.

I come across nonsense posts like this that essentially boils down to, "well according to your methods, everything related to gathering reads/playing mafia/living life is pointless!" As if it's supposed to be some ultimate "gotcha". No. Nothing about this is real. I already said my first gut reaction was that I didn't like Llamarble's post. Not seeing past his behavior is CES' problem, not my own. I'm explicitly doing the opposite of using "feely bullshit". I'm reasoning a read. I'm the one who has put in the work to have a read. Llamarble's intent is irrelevant. I reason that 1) CES' vote is a result of Llamarable's previous posts. This is fact. 2) Despite not making comment on it, I don't see CES making this vote if Llamarble does not make post65. What he

does

vote Llamarble for is nothing worth pushing. CES voted Llamarble because he thought it was a good vote. I don't see the town motivation for anyone that reads past their initial gut feeling.

Not only that, but in 225 he just assumed Llama was doing a slayers gambit of some sort as opposed to just thinking Llama is firing from the hip (which can come from Town and Scum alike), which IIRC Llama neither confirms nor denies which makes his vote on ECS superflux.

1. Are you saying I'm scum for disagreeing with you? If so, please tell me why your opinions are so self-evidently correct that I couldn't possibly see things differently?

Read post

Why no conclusion?

I... posted the conclusion first?

I would like to thank everyone that asked me stupid questions and ones they did not expect answers to. It's only as a result of your effort that the shining beacons of content in this post become more real.

[Lycanfire]

Thoughts

EddieFenix/Sauce is not s/s - I don't think wolves talk like 421 425.

Maybe

421 is in-thread comm, but I feel the increasing feeling of getting brain damage every time I read Sauce's posts, moreso than trying to read the anagrams in Schadd's recent Mini.

Dunnstral/Postie are weirdly aligned at the time of writing 427

Marquis/LQ is not s/s - 458

EddieFenix/Gamma likely not s/s - 506

Gamma/ActionDan is not s/s - 522

Reservation-

Gamma's spoilered defense of Eddie in 395 was shit.

My guess is that you either didn't see the pattern that Marquis saw themselves, or you didn't think I saw that post by North, or you thought I would be too embarrassed to admit that I didn't see the pattern there. I think it's the later.

This is Marqu trying to get the game going IMO

Asking again what you meant by 308.

His provided reads on not even half the players in the game goes after isolated incidence instead of looking at the whole picture regarding the reads he gave where he said most about them. It's important to note that these are the more active players on average so the fact he goes after isolated incidents instead of a broader picture of those slots shows he's either giving low effort for this competition or he is Scum.

...

His question to me

I don't think is a legit way to sort me

considering he's already given a SR on me, which makes me think he is pushing an agenda instead of actually sorting people. It's also unclear who he SRs and who he TRs because under Scum

you have 6 players, which is far too many to be SRing

, which makes me think he is intentionally trying to paint a lot of people as Scum so he can't get blamed for voting someone later in D1 whom he already game a SR on.

Lycan uses a lot of colorful wording, but there is a disconnect between what he is representing with enough solid backing that I think he is just creating stories for motivation instead of looking at all possibilities.

Why do you think I do not intend to sort you when I'm offering twice the number as scum as scumreads? Are you special?

Who are you talking to in this (434) post, and what are you trying to say?

What about my wording is interesting?

Marquis I'd like you to ISO Eddie and tell me what you think. See 388, 390, and 402 for why I think he's scum.

And since you scumread Gamma, see 331/332/335 for why I think he's town.

Context: Marquis asks to be pointed in a direction. Receives groans. Postie pops by and doesn't waste an opportunity to promote her petread like some kind of psychotic Jehovah's Witness. I would say Postie's conviction here is town. The main problem with Postie is that her reads are bad- the push on Eddie has some substance (sure pushing someone that makes that townbloc comment and never relenting is cool), but she later makes a weirdo post which amounts to "Eddie has no direction, something something super secret reads are scum" in 469. Eddie never admits to having a super secret read, but I'm puzzled how that would be a scumpush.

Ok, let's unite forces, Liquety.
VOTE: Chill

Meanwhile you can figure out why even though ppl expressed sympathy with my attacks on you the same ppl don't hesitate to follow your vote on Chill as opposed to helping me attack Cogito.

What reservations did you have about CES? Want to come back on board?

LQ is a very good scum candidate too. Those 3/15 odds aren't looking so bad anymore.
I liked Lycan's big post; puts him in the area of "nothing particularly difficult to fake yet but moving in a good direction" with NSG.

The reasons people find you scummy aren't the tells you anticipated? The horror! Oh and the guy making genuine effort to read you (and the rest of the game) is scum, because that follows.

Is the latter comment referring to Shea?

---

I'm theorizing that CES and ActionDan are scum together: Marquis a possible third. See a few posts previous in 602 where I (apparently, too subtly) point out what I believe to be in-thread communication between the two of them. ActionDan in particular has defended Marquis twice over (Shea has done the same thing, also twice) while CES is on the opposite side of the argument. I'm suggesting the word choice in 410 and 520 is a word defined in pre-game* to focus the teams' attention on a serious push. ActionDan's reciprocation in 520 amounts to "back off of Marquis, CES". See my bolded segments. CES picks up the code and returns soon after in 526 stating that things aren't going according to plan, and weakly tries to get ActionDan on board, to which Dan expresses meek interest in exploring at some undetermined time in the future.

*yes my team is all-town, we know about pre-game communication was a thing because jjh asked shit for brains if pregame was 24 hours to do nothing, to which we were asked if we were all town, upon being told yes we were told that we sit around talking to ourselves for 24hr

tl;dr for

everybody else

I want you to sell me on your pet wagon and if you do so you're etching your name into the history books as someone who promoted a wagon over one on CES.

god bless

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I'm pretty sure all of Team Mafia has scum daytalk, bud.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

i hope you realize that my question towards you isn't a questioning of your marquis read – i'm trying to figure out if you're actually reading the game at all, because as far as i can tell you haven't expressed any other scumreads nor any clear townreads.

That's what I figured and why I'm not all that interested in doing it. Look at Marquis' iso in Signs and Void and we can talk.

I reason that 1) CES' vote is a result of Llamarable's previous posts. This is fact. 2) Despite not making comment on it, I don't see CES making this vote if Llamarble does not make post65. What he does vote Llamarble for is nothing worth pushing. CES voted Llamarble because he thought it was a good vote. I don't see the town motivation for anyone that reads past their initial gut feeling.

None of this is true.

[Llamarble]

Is the latter comment referring to Shea?

Yeah, Shea was doing Good Works trying to figure out the game looking into Gamma and then LQ; I find it difficult to buy LQ genuinely found it scummy.

[Sauce]

Mmk.
VOTE: Tchill

Mulch wants me to ask you why you are SRing me.

Because he's scum

VOTE: Llamarble

[Sauce]

I'm pretty sure all of Team Mafia has scum daytalk, bud.

Must've been my posts that caused the braindamage to his entire team for not knowing that.

[Sauce]

Honesty time: going to read Ether's Normal today all day.

[Davsto]

here we go

[Davsto]

I'll probably try and make a post for every 5 pages or something like that idk I'm going into this blind and haven't looked at my TeamPT yet to avoid confbias because I don't want to go into this game already having decided who is scum and then potentially ignoring other candidates

[Davsto]

that's posturing if i've ever seen it.

VOTE: llamarble

I know everyone has already touched on this but it is a really bad entrance from north here. Trying too hard to be "making a serious effort" in response to a joke but also not actually making that much effort what with the lack of questioning.

he forces a read to a) pretend like he's generating useful content and b) stagnate things by ending rvs early. moreover, i think in general a forced entrance like that is just more likely to come from self-conscious scum than from town.

This has got to be intentional or irony in some way right? Right?

25 Offends me, but that's not why Marquis is scum #2
I'd probably have forced something, but then there were 4 scumtells in a 3 post ISO.
Is that density even beatable? "Honestly this is the first post where's the spam I was pregamethreadwatching for" might do it?

Wait Llamarble's first post wasn't a joke? I don't know what's going on here. Hopefully it becomes more clear as it goes on.

Honestly is a word probably more used by scum, at least when it looks like that.
And yeah, I think scum might have their eyes on the start time a bit more particularly since we didn't have to confirm roles.
That's probably significant enough for us to prefer a lynch on one of the first-hour posters.
I don't like "where's all the spam" either. Noise is scummy (eventually).
F...first has scummy cadence too. Did we ever calculate whether ellipses are just a scumtell? Doesn't matter.
Hypemention is minor towntell but not enough to avoid lynch.

I didn't like Marquis' first couple posts either; I forgot about that.

It has not yet become more clear.

if i was scum i definitely would have lurked out the beginning of the game – activity is probably, for the most part, meaningless

These are two seemingly contradictory statements side-by-side, feels like a defence that's trying to cover too many bases. I'm not liking this player so far.

Sorting me is pointless, either I'll get nightkilled immediately or we'll win. Well, both is probably the most likely outcome.
(Or I'm scum and you can autolynch me a day before lylo)
Marquis is making a grand spectacle of trying to get help from his teammates.
EddieFenix totally picked the scum role PM
You're accomodating and full-breakdowny

oh no you're going to be one of those players aren't you

Keychain now also agrees that northsidegal wouldn't pick scum and has provided this game as evidence, highlighting this post.

I think I disagree? Nowhere in the linked post does nsg claim to be bad at scum - if anything, they said they don't want that particular game to be taken "as an indication of how good i am at mafia" and that "things aren't usually like this" - that doesn't scream "I would never pick mafia" to me.

i didn't believe that he really found something, hence my saying that his entrance was forced (kind of like how your questions feel).

Okay, and the scum motivation behind him lying about having found something is what?

he forces a read to a) pretend like he's generating useful content and b) stagnate things by ending rvs early. moreover, i think in general a forced entrance like that is just more likely to come from self-conscious scum than from town. that's not to say that i believe that he's necessarily scum or that any of those were necessarily his strategy – just that i think it's likely enough to warrant moving my vote while we're still in rvs.

Hey guys! Back from out of town and stuff.

Don't like this post. In general, town is best served by existing the RVS as quickly as possible. So often times town pushes in RVS ARE ridiculous on face and ARE forced. I would expect a town player who is earnestly attempting to create information to read much the same as a scum player who is trying to "fake it" because definitionally we have no information to attack.

On the other hand, I find scum to have an incentive to hide in RVS and use it to be non-accountable for their actions therein. Like, for instance, saying things like "while we're still in RVS" as justification for a vote.

@lla – if i was scum i definitely would have lurked out the beginning of the game – activity is probably, for the most part, meaningless (so is everything else you mentioned).

Wifom self meta ahoyhoy.

So, VOTE: Northsidegal

oh no i agree with tsq
Although not a big fan of this post because it feels a bit too late in the game to have only made this observation (an observation on a single player's first page posts) when catching up.

Here ye! Here ye, scummy folk!

Oh fuck me

OK, I am caught up, feel free to fire questions at me.

Is this a scumclaim. What make you so special that anyone needs to ask you instead of the other way around --maybe it's your catch-up posts, let's investigate-- are you scum?

Oh phew he is playing properly he just had an odd first post. Panic over.

OK, I am caught up, feel free to fire questions at me.

Is this a scumclaim. What make you so special that anyone needs to ask you instead of the other way around --maybe it's your catch-up posts, let's investigate-- are you scum?

So I ask people to ask me questions and the best you can come up with is "Are you Scum?"

I thought your OP was incredibly Scummy, but I held off judgement on that because I was only working off one post.

Why did I say people can ask me questions?
Because People don't understand what i am saying a lot of the time. And since IDK what people understand about what I am saying and what I am not, I suggest people ask me questions so that my thought process is more open with people.

This shows your bias towards how you generally see these players in relation to what alignment they could be and nothing more. That said, you are all over the place and I can see where this would come from Scum trying to WIFOM Town into oblivion.

Which is why you propel the wifom, place it more prominently.

This shows your bias towards how you generally see these players in relation to what alignment they could be and nothing more. That said, you are all over the place and I can see where this would come from Scum trying to WIFOM Town into oblivion.

Which is why you propel the wifom, place it more prominently.

So are these TRs or SRs of these players?

Not a good sign if you can't tell and don't want to find out specifically, instead post a general 'wut'.

I find it slightly odd that you quote the last thing I said to ask me if I am Scum and then double back to analyze what I actually said earlier and try to infer a motivation behind it. This tells me that you are Scum reading me before actually gathering any information on me, which is Scummy because it shows that your trying to sort me is not in earnest.

VOTE: Sauce

LQ looking town to me here

[Davsto]

I'll have questions at the end btw it's just kinda pointless to make them when I'm not caught up because they've probably already been asked, and answered too if I'm lucky

[Davsto]

Gonna do some homework to reward me for that vast effort before returning promptly

[Davsto]

I have more homework than expected so I should be able to get another 5 pages of catching-up done later tonight and then I'm done for the day and will be continuing tomorrow

[MathBlade]

Votecount 1.19

Tchill13(4)

~ Thestatusquo, northsidegal, LicketyQuickety, Llamarble

Marquis(3)

~ Davsto, Cogito Ergo Sum, Dunnstral

northsidegal(1)

~ Marquis

Llamarble(1)

~ Sauce

Gamma Emerald(1)

~ ActionDan

EddieFenix(1)

~ Postie

Davsto(1)

~ Tchill13

Cogito Ergo Sum(1)

~ Lycanfire


Not Voting (2): Gamma Emerald, EddieFenix

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2018-02-04 21:00:00)

MOD NOTES

Sorry for two VCs on the same page but I really need to get out a prod to Marquis here.

[Postie]

1. Are you saying I'm scum for disagreeing with you? If so, please tell me why your opinions are so self-evidently correct that I couldn't possibly see things differently?

Read post

Explain like I'm five.

Context: Marquis asks to be pointed in a direction. Receives groans. Postie pops by and doesn't waste an opportunity to promote her petread like some kind of psychotic Jehovah's Witness. I would say Postie's conviction here is town. The main problem with Postie is that her reads are bad- the push on Eddie has some substance (sure pushing someone that makes that townbloc comment and never relenting is cool), but she later makes a weirdo post which amounts to "Eddie has no direction, something something super secret reads are scum" in 469. Eddie never admits to having a super secret read, but I'm puzzled how that would be a scumpush.

I'm not sure how to explain the things you're confused by any better than I already have, and you seem to be ignoring 90% of my reasons for scumreading Eddie in favour of nitpicking this one thing. I don't know what else to say to you because this is such an astronomically skewed interpretation of events. I don't think we're going to mesh well this game.

Keychain now also agrees that northsidegal wouldn't pick scum and has provided this game as evidence, highlighting this post.

I think I disagree? Nowhere in the linked post does nsg claim to be bad at scum - if anything, they said they don't want that particular game to be taken "as an indication of how good i am at mafia" and that "things aren't usually like this" - that doesn't scream "I would never pick mafia" to me.

I forgot the point Keychain made exactly but it was something to do with the bulletproof claim and the fact that it was really terrible and got her quicklynched.
That's not the main point though - read/skim her ISO in that game. Nsg has a

very

limited scum range and her play here is night and day from her scumplay.

[Gamma Emerald]

(If you are town, we are on the same team, so pls help)
Anyway the reason I woke myself up was I got paranoid about Postie and ISOed her in bed and I can't remember why she is town.
Mostly I just see a good player playing the game. Solid probability of town because game loaded with town but not the obvtown I was hoping.
TSQ is take it to the bank never lynch town though because he got frustrated with me and tried to pull me more actively into the game.(which worked). I will ISO him again sometime to make sure but he and Gamma are town 1 and town 2 and NSG has made fakeable posts but they have also been good; gets exhausting to continue to produce moderate grade town tells like that as scum so I think she can be town 3.

OK, this sounds like you are trying to put more effort into getting your TRs correct than your SRs. What's the Town motivation for that? Have you even bothered to ISO me, your strongest SR?

What's the scum motivation?

[Gamma Emerald]

@lycanfire 606: I was engaging ef,not defending him. shade noted though.

VOTE: LQ
At this point I believe LQ is trying to make the people on his wagon look bad by challenging their opinions.

[LicketyQuickety]

@lycanfire 606: I was engaging ef,not defending him. shade noted though.

VOTE: LQ
At this point I believe LQ is trying to make the people on his wagon look bad by challenging their opinions.

Brilliant, I agree. Now tell me why that makes me Scum.

[LicketyQuickety]

Not only that, but in 225 he just assumed Llama was doing a slayers gambit of some sort as opposed to just thinking Llama is firing from the hip (which can come from Town and Scum alike), which IIRC Llama neither confirms nor denies which makes his vote on ECS superflux.

Was the distinction I made too subtle to be clear to you or what?

Why no conclusion?

I... posted the conclusion first?

Could you repost your conclusion than?

I would like to thank everyone that asked me stupid questions and ones they did not expect answers to. It's only as a result of your effort that the shining beacons of content in this post become more real.

I can say I really don't like your 'holier than thou' attitude.