Team Mafia 2018: Game 3 - Random GIFs Game Over

[Elena Fisher]

It's not a 1v1 it's not noise it's a debate on why we're both scum to each other what if one of us die? We'd want our reads shown and cases so people can leap back to it yes fitz is getting lynched today but what if you die? Wouldn't you want a case to be on me so people can refer back to it. I know how players like you think and this is scum Math for sure and it's just so blatant to me.

[mhsmith0]

Votecount 1.13

T-Bone (2)

Titus , chesskid3 ,

Titus (3)

T-Bone , Aeronaut , Bins ,

havingfitz (6)

Keychain , ChannelDelibird , Mathdino , Almost50 , UC Voyager , Elena Fisher , L-2

Mathdino (3)

Radja , Dunkerdoodles , havingfitz ,

Almost50 (1)

Bulbazak ,

Not Voting (1)

Bulbazak ,

Day one deadline is Sunday February 4, 9 PM PST. (expired on 2018-02-04 21:00:00)

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch!

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[Elena Fisher]

Everyone knows she's the most likely to pick scum on her team

This is false and the more you keep trying to act like it's true looks worse on you

Mastina backs Math up on this one.

Mastina is outright lying because Mastina knows how much gerry loves scum she even says it here:
viewtopic.php?f=84&t=73043

[Mathdino]

Don't worry Math if I ever die in this game I will make sure you're next just because I can't get you lynched today doesn't mean I can't get you lynched tomorrow. You're just very...loud you don't want to figure me out you're just sheeping you're not game solving you're asking for stuff from other players you're so confident I'm scum when you can't even case me. you're on the wagon that is my main sr and has been all game with me and this doesn't worry you? At all? No if you were town you'd step back go "wait a minute" but you can't do that because you've locked your into this

I'm honestly just addressing this so you can dig your own hole here. More theatre means more shit to read into.

1. Threatening to get me lynched over your deathtunnel. Yeah sure that's town motivated.

2. Join the club of "MATH IS TOO LOUD".

3. If I didn't want you to figure out I'm just sheeping, I wouldn't say "I'm literally sheeping KMD and GL here". Being loud doesn't mean I'm the best scumhunter. The nature of TM is that there are 59 other townies at my disposal.
But wait, you want to discredit my team and my ability to ask everyone else's teammates for more reads. Yep that's some good town-motivated shit.

4. To argue I'm not trying to gamesolve is literally to ignore all the stuff I'm doing re: cross-referencing other games and this entire tournament. That's laughable. You're just tuning it all out. I will ALWAYS try to gamesolve. I'm using the tools I have.

5. I cased you before. I could case you again if I felt it necessary. I've been avoiding this 1v1 because I already tried to canvas votes and it didn't work. You're not gonna get lynched today. So why would I case you when no one's asking?

6. I've stated multiple times I don't think you're scum with fitz. No, it doesn't bother me. This is a high-info lynch.
Plus why the everliving fuck would you use "I'm voting your scumread!!!" as a reason not to scumread you?
Have you literally never ever seen a bus before? You know better than that.

7. "If Math was town he'd think exactly like I think he should". Fuck. That.
Go meta me if you want to figure out what town-Mathdino believes in.
It's sure as FUCK not "I can't scumread 2 people when one person is voting the other!"

Someone back me up on this shit. I already said this 1v1 is noise and I'm pretty sure I'm being baited into this again.

Edit: End-of-day reads are anti-town. I'm not going to give a "LYNCH THIS IF I DIE" type thing if that's what you're asking.
1. I'm scum because I don't want to give a full case on you being scum? Are you insane?

2. I've given examples already. It's in my ISO. We've had this conversation before. We've had the "We've had this conversation before" conversation before. I'M NOT REPEATING MYSELF 18 MILLION TIMES. MAYBE THAT'S WHY MY FUCKING ISO IS SO GODDAMN LONG. I give reasons, you say "fuck your reasons I'm town". Good talk. Let's have it again in 8 pages.

3. "I hate players like you sweet jesus" - hurts my feelings, nice AtE.

4. "I know how players like you think" - OFF OF NO META LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[Bulbazak]

She said your scum game was strong. I extrapolated from there. I remember what she said stood out and made note. But you're right, she said Gerry was most likely and you were second most likely. What does it matter? She still said you were likely to pick scum if given the chance, because your scum game was strong. And she said outside of that, the rest of the team prefer town.

[Bulbazak]

@mod: Can you please count my unvotes?
thank you

[Elena Fisher]

Saying I hate you isn't ate if your feelings get hurt by someone saying I hate you you need to get off the internet. I've wanted you lynched long before you did me and your slide into omgus scumreading me isn't cute.
You saying your sheeping is basically your answer for why are you scumreading someone it leaves little room for your own argument and ways to poke holes into bad logic.
Yes I am telling people to stop looking at teams and yes I will discredit it because what you are ignoring or don't understand is if someone is a scumslot that means everyone else on that hydra is a scum slot too so that's 60 scum slots along with 300 town slots you can make up meta you can make up arguments getting answers from your team isn't 100% valid at all the more you try to push it the more you're bsing

[Mathdino]

Cool story. Hard to parse the 83 word run-on sentence but whatever.

Done here. This 1v1 speaks for itself. Will wait for reads from others on this one.

Anyway, fitz still being alive annoys me. I assume he's claiming VT but if not we don't have much time to re-wagon someone (probably Titus as much as I hate to say it). Bulba I assume you're willing to deadline lynch fitz?

[Elena Fisher]

2/2 to that yes a bus is a thing but your talking like you know fitz is town and you're setting up my lynch "oh if fitz is town elena is scum" come on why don't you go into more detail on that? you use logic and data on your pushes and your meta thing but here's a wake up call that you need to get through your head.

alignment are wifom and everything was random'd

Everyone coming into this game clearly thought "okay what would be best for my team and what would others think I would take" so saying ___ prefs scum or ___ prefs town is a outright stupid argument and one that should never be taken into account ever saying ___ flipped town in that game so ____ is more then likely scum in that game is also stupid it's so dumb and the only reason people like you would push that is for another reason to scumread someone if you wanna explain why I am wrong on this topic I please suggest you try

[Bulbazak]

If by deadline lynch Fitz, you mean before I leave today?

Yes.

[Bulbazak]

Once this last vote gets placed, it's not being moved.

[Elena Fisher]

k back off this proves my point, even more, I'm done with your slot and if you flip town I happily will avoid you because your arguments aren't even arguments and I fail to understand how anything you say can come from town and that's my own fault I don't think I'll ever not sr you whether it be bias now or I really am that confident so the one thing I will agree on is ending this conversation

[Elena Fisher]

She said your scum game was strong. I extrapolated from there. I remember what she said stood out and made note. But you're right, she said Gerry was most likely and you were second most likely. What does it matter? She still said you were likely to pick scum if given the chance, because your scum game was strong. And she said outside of that, the rest of the team prefer town.

Yes I'd say my scum game is amazing I

know

I am good as scum but the catch

and it's a big one

is I am good scum on my main accounts not

this

account I don't know how scum me would handle a game like this because I come at it from a much dif angle then I do my main accounts. How can she say I'm likely to pick something when she isn't me? She doesn't know what I would do? Acting like she does is just wrong.

[Elena Fisher]

First thing I even said to my team is
"If we get any scumroles I'm not taking them because I can see myself getting meta lynched"
believe it or don't.

[Elena Fisher]

Gonna drink some tea Math's ego and play just got me steamed a little.

[Radja]

Shea/Keely/Reck aren't using the full tournament yet, they should be

Can you explain this? Reck is up to date and so is Shea. Shea in particular thinks the posts you and A50 made about positioning reads based on it being a team competition is nonsense.
Scum teams are generated independantly of one another so suggesting a player is town/scum based on team flips is gamblers fallacy. momos partners have the same probability of being scum regardless of momo taking scum.

This was a comment from Shea from last thursday, but he asked me earlier today to make sure I posted that. My timezone makes it harder for me to talk to my team live.

[Mathdino]

Interestingly, Elena, we've also had the "We've had the "We've had this conversation before" conversation before" conversation before.

I'm not doing this.

Edit: And if you're town, you're damn right that it's your fault. I would never try to completely dismiss someone's arguments because I disagree with the tools they're using. And I CERTAIN AS FUCK wouldn't start fucking scumreading them because of unorthodox tools. Like I genuinely don't understand how you can read what A50 is doing, understand it, and continue to scumread it. I don't. It's inane.

You expect to be trusted if you flip town, but you're throwing me in the trash if I flip town.

Good talk. Hope we never roll town together. I defer to you, o great scumhunter.

Edit2:
>shitting on my ego
>shitting on me for saying that other people are better scumhunters than i am
>also shitting on me and saying that my reads don't mean shit if i flip town
>good fucking talk

WHY ARE YOU CONTINUING THIS GODDAMN CONVERSATION WHEN YOU'VE ALREADY SAID YOU'RE ENDING IT.

[Elena Fisher]

Why do people think Bins is scum I've been...iffy on Bins half the game I might want to rethink my townreads because since I've already stated most of the lynchpool seems the same and that's normally just...wrong and outright weird it's rare that everyone just agrees and it's correct (I've been in a game like that but it wasn't like this it was much more unified)

[Mathdino]

Can you explain this? Reck is up to date and so is Shea. Shea in particular thinks the posts you and A50 made about positioning reads based on it being a team competition is nonsense.
Scum teams are generated independantly of one another so suggesting a player is town/scum based on team flips is gamblers fallacy. momos partners have the same probability of being scum regardless of momo taking scum.

This was a comment from Shea from last thursday, but he asked me earlier today to make sure I posted that. My timezone makes it harder for me to talk to my team live.

Ooh gladly. A50 came up with this so credit to him not me.

I agree that using flips is gambler's fallacy. It's too bad Shea hasn't seen me play enough to know I don't fall for probability fallacies. And I know momo's partners still have the same probability of being scum for example.

However, A50's point is that other players in the competition don't know that, and may think that because they rolled scum with Team X and Team Y in another game, that the rest of Team X and Team Y is more likely to be town. Basically, he's trying to read people who fall into the gambler's fallacy. Once we get one scumflip here I'll be able to start using that.

My point however was, for example, let's say the 4th best scum player on a team gets lynched and flips scum. Why would that team give a scum PM to the 4th best scum player? It's practically suicide. Yes, it's WIFOM, but if you suck at scum, you suck at scum, and that's that.
That would imply their team had more scum PMs than they knew what to do with, heavily implicating the 3 better scum players on that team.

Similarly, if the 1st and 2nd best town players on a team flip town, it implies that the rest of the team is town as well. You can follow the same argument there. We don't have enough flips to really dig into this, but our game is the most behind so I expect we'll be able to later.

If they're asking about my A50 thing, I'm heavily reading into the "4 town PMs 1 scum PM" idea that's been consistent with their team even before momo flipped scum. I'm not going more into that.

I wasn't here to say it but I agree that most of A50's tells beyond the above are pretty much nonsense. I'm hard townreading him for a lot of it but I'm not actually using it. Plus it has more utility in other games than this one, so who cares. I can do my own research for that.

[Almost50]

REMINDER: 7-10-13 is a very likely combination for a scum team somewhere.

This is independent of the argument about Scum!LLD, and is very much an option in here as it is.

[Radja]

More thoughts from Shea regarding MathDino's attempt to solve the tournament holistically:

There's two ways of doing it:
- honestly: by accurately including his own team in tournament solving. This pretty much screws his own team in a situation where his team did not draw all town roles. Because of that, it's borderline against the rules to do this. If you're doing it honestly and you have scum on your team, you're going to be forced to conclude they're scum, or it won't work.
- dishonestly: if you're accurately analyzing all teams except for your own(because there's scum on your team), then whatever you're doing is wifom and doesn't lead anywhere good.


From my point of view, the whole discussion about who would take scum and who wouldn't, is really distracting and hurts the game a lot.


@MathDino: Reck asks for your read on fitz, not based on your LLD read.
Reck is flip-flopping on his early townread on LLD because he hates fitz's ISO.
Reck thinks Dino is town for what doing the "solve the entire thing, not just one game"

[Elena Fisher]

ok I drank my tea I feel much better. I feel like there are a few more statements math made that are just incorrect or maybe he forgot if he likes (and only him) I will point it out otherwise I'll leave it alone.

A50 what's your read on Radja UC and Key please?

[Radja]

ftr, I haven't caught up entirely, but I've been skimming a bit from my phone but not posting since phone posting on a dutch autocorrecting phone is painful.

[Almost50]

Btw, I put that reminder up there because Ranmaru has just said that Chesskid is probably Scum. I want that to be clear for everyone so even after I'm gone you'd be able to verify this one.

[Mathdino]

@A50: Um. There are only 2 games that's even a possibility in.

I'm not seeing why roping chesskid/Smocaine into this is any good but yeah Bins/Elena is a pretty solid combo.

@Radja: Shea's on the right track but he's a little off. Unlike A50, I'm using the rest of the tournament to solve this game. Everything I've posted in this game is with the sole intent of solving this game. I haven't been open because I can't use evidence from other games.
When I say I have "holistic reads" that's legit just code for "I have evidence that I cannot share that affects the slots in this game, but you could find it if you wanted to, it's really not hard". Hence why I want more teams reading the whole tournament. It slowly makes my arguments make more sense.
I can assure you that I would never sacrifice this game for the sake of another game. I'm not A50. I like winning the game I'm in. I like being right.

I agree the discussion about who would take scum is distracting. My point is that Elena's reaction was worse than anyone else's. That was all.

I'm curious as to Reck's read on fitz. Independently of fitz going after me for still unclear-to-me reasons (so turning off the OMGUS part of my brain) I don't have much to read into.

I've never claimed to be able to read fitz strongly without a large ISO behind him. He's the kind of player I usually dump in the "hopefully town, won't do much damage as scum, will leave him for later" bin. In this case though, he's replacing into a scummy slot and went guns blazing on me the same way he did when I tried to lynch SK-him.

So a basic scumread but nothing case-worthy.