Micro 773: Twin Trap - Game Over

[Chara]

hello everyone!
RC, are we friends?

[Chara]

hello everyone!
RC, are we friends?

Hi Chara, where's your vote?

it was

going

to be on RC after my question was answered, but sleep. :>

you didn't like Guilty's lack of vote either. are you of the opinion scum avoids RVS?

[Chara]

VOTE: torn up

Policy lynching a hydra that just admitted they'll be using hydra dissonance to cover their tracks

L-1

No love

so is it policy or is it scum covering tracks?

[Chara]

If I say ‘nothing’ the interaction ends there. No read development

i agree here. it's incredibly annoying when someone votes a player to get the ball rolling and then says "voting here for pressure". it doesn't give any sort of pressure or reactions because it reveals exactly what is being done.

[Chara]

i can't tell if the revote is policy or not. what did you think you misread?

[Chara]

because then the joke wouldn't make sense...?

[Chara]

skimmed the RC vs. Toranaga, but a lot of it is things i would rather not get personally involved in. and out of game is difficult to read and easy to be genuine about.
Cheeky: i have a few reads. :>

Toranaga: what's your read on Flubber?

[Chara]

My read right now is that I'm not in the right emotional state to try to read anything that you've said for alignment.

i really want to townread this.

[Chara]

Cheeky: i have a few reads. :>

Cheeky monkey. I'll let you hold your cards for now.

~ C

really? is that vote just for show?

pedit: hm, never mind. why the change?

[Chara]

Cheeky: i see, thank you.

hi chara.

you asked me about flubber. in short, it can die. flubber's vote on our slot has the worst reasoning behind it and, as you caught so yourself, the unvote and then vote again is actually pretty senseless from their standpoint. I don't believe it comes from town very often.

anyway, it's an early read, things can change, but it's where I'm leaning so far.

we also thought you were a little dodgy here and there but I'm sure if we work together like we did in alisae's hydra game and in your C9++ with cheeky, we'll be clear to each other.

-tor

i'd like to see what Flubber has to say before i decide, but i also didn't like the immediate "policy this" instead of trying to figure out what it is you meant.

i didn't do much in C9++ besides recognize Cheeky for obvtown, but if you're town i can hopefully do so again with both of you.

[Chara]

This hydra thing is going to screw with me...nice one and jackass one.

they're both nice.
why's Toranaga a "jackass"? for scumreading you, or for something else?

[Chara]

what I didn't like was 'not getting into' my argument with RC and saying most stuff are NAI because it's off game stuff, which is probably true but it rubbed me the wrong way that she decided to say descriptive things instead of trying to read into it anyway.

-tor

out of game

is

NAI. town will obviously give their version of events and scum can easily use truthful emotion in their arguments when it involves another game. it's an easy way to look genuine, so better to avoid.

[Chara]

why are you so concerned about naked votes on me when you're scumreading all my posts?
VOTE: Mumble
pedit: damn it!

[Chara]

This is to me? Can you point to the Hopkirk unvote you're referring to?

Apologies. I'm less lazy on non-weekend nights.

i had a question for you as well.

[Chara]

i would quote it, but it's at the top of the page. :>

[Chara]

The one with the "p-edit: damnit"?. Sorry, I thought you had answered your own question.

Simple answer: I think there needs to be more than just a naked vote. C explained, though I'm "mehish" on it.

Why does my being concerned about naked votes and my scumreading you have to be mutually exclusive?

i do understand the notion of disliking naked votes in general, but when you can point to specific posts of mine you don't like i wonder why you're surprised to see players voting me without explanation. it looked like a question for the sake of it, but i suppose you were making a point?

[Chara]

My read right now is that I'm not in the right emotional state to try to read anything that you've said for alignment.

i really want to townread this.

Yeah, I think town usually gets upset more than scum

i made myself properly read that entire interaction. i will say that the point of my post here was to say i

wanted

to townread the emotion, but i don't think it's a good idea to townread out of game. RC recognizing that he can't read Toranaga right now is something i do like, however.

[Chara]

Okay yeah this needs to be policied

can we go back to your "oh i'm stupid" post? what did you think you misread?
and no, it doesn't need to be policied. let's play mafia instead.

Hopkirk: i think the answer to your question is rather obvious.

[Chara]

Mumble and Chara are town.

talk to me about Mumble town?

Hopkirk: do you agree with Cheeky or not about Mumble looking like scum you? i'm assuming no as you voted elsewhere. and no, Cheeky's comment doesn't have anything to do with my vote.

[Chara]

it would be easiest o say eth0s is cleanly scum for calling something TvS definitively, but i've seen town do it enough. i don't like him, though.
how does one say TvS over TvT? it doesn't make any sense unless one has strong reads on both, which Flubber plainly does not have.
town is Torn Up, Hopkirk. a bit more confident in the latter.

Kmd: you have Hopkirk and i voting twice in that count.

Don't ever make vote counts the first thing you do when you roll out of bed.

[Chara]

no, ethos said that, not Flubber. and here i got excited.

[Chara]

no, ethos did say something to that effect. it's TvS, but currently reading Torn Up as the scum.
actually this is better, yes. there's nothing to townread.
VOTE: eth0s

[Chara]

no, ethos said that, not Flubber. and here i got excited.

neither of the players Mumble has scumread are new?
why did it reduce?

[Chara]

hm. thanks for the answer.

[Chara]

i mean, it

is

fake. it's Mumble following RC's read at his request. i haven't decided if that means anything yet, but it's good to note.

or did you mean the content of the vote post? i read it as non-serious.

[Chara]

Can we just flip him now? I'm really itching to see his alignment now lol.

~ C

so am i, Cheeky. well, sort of, anyway.
i know NM is a lol-hammerer, but his threat to hammer did not seem serious. either a joke, or seeing how players would react. honestly, not really understanding the townreads there, but i don't know how to read him at all. he looked obvtown in my last game with him, but i was scum so probably biased.

Toranaga: what exactly is iffy? i know you mentioned that post about RVS that you didn't like.

[Chara]

251-9 is his vote on Torn up.
265 is what you're referencing.

ah, so i am.
no, i didn't like the vote. i suppose i didn't say as much when i voted Mumble initially.

what's your read on him?
and me, while you're at it.

[Chara]

i didn't dislike Guilty's lack of vote, Toranaga.

[Chara]

that seems rather easy, even if it does match my reads too. i'm used to disagreeing with the majority.
who was it that said Flubber and ethos were probably not scum because they were both voting Torn Up?

[Chara]

right, thank you. it feels like a minor townpoint for Guilty, though, as i can't think of what scum agenda this pushes.

actually just doing a quick look at the VC and thinking about Flubber/eth0s both pushing Torn Up, they probably aren't both scum. So I'm working with eth0s/Mumble hypothesis right now, will reread again with this in mind later

i don't know if i agree with this line of logic. there's really nothing stopping scum from voting together.

[Chara]

Somebody please hammer me. I'm done with you people.

this behaviour is ridiculous. no one was tunneling you. if there's a wrong wagon on you, engage with it. no one was pushing to quickhammer you except Cheeky and yourself.

[Chara]

how is this anyone else's fault but eth0s RC

your emotions are really off right now

-tor

[Chara]

though it's also NM's fault for hammering, eth0s called for it instead of actually doing something with his wagon. i'll never understand this sort of behaviour.

pedit: well, i agree with the first sentence at any rate.

[Chara]

and the answer to why RC won't be nightkilled can be found above. :>

[Chara]

when have i said you're scum, RC?

[Chara]

what do you think of his posts after the hammer?

tor

i don't think this is a good thing to discuss in twilight.

[Chara]

pedit: well, i agree with the first sentence at any rate.

referring to quoted post.

[Chara]

i think RC could be town, but i also see what you're saying.

[Chara]

i'm sure you'll do your very best.

[Chara]

Tor is the one who suspects Chara. I TR him for some reason. :/

you don't know?

i'd ask NM to explain why i'm scum, but that would be asking NM to explain something.

pedit: i don't know whether to be annoyed or happy that one head of the hydra is going he, and the other she. androgyny win?

[Chara]

family emergency. expect me tomorrow. not replacing.

[Chara]

Uh...the reasoning is in the very post you quoted. Lots of words that felt made up, with nothing supporting them. Thus my questions to explain...which were never answered.

From my POV, scum is in:

{GL, Chara}; {TU, Chara}; {TU, GL}

Vote stays.

where's Flubber in all of this?

[Chara]

Chara's entrance was meh, but seemed okay later. Neutral-town.

what was meh about my entrance and what made you change your mind, exactly?

Torn Up's town, GuiltyLion is probably town, 431 in particular feels very honest.
i'm trying to see what scum Flubber would gain from avoiding my wagon here. it could be a misplay, but going around assuming that is pointless.

[Chara]

Cheeky: why did NM feel town on day 1? getting a read on him one way or the other would be useful. he looks like town NM to me but it's hard to feel confident in it.

[Chara]

Okay yeah this needs to be policied

can we go back to your "oh i'm stupid" post? what did you think you misread?
and no, it doesn't need to be policied. let's play mafia instead.

Hopkirk: i think the answer to your question is rather obvious.

I thought I misread 40 as them excusing their hydra dissonance when they just said their play was erratic. Turns out excuse was earlier

Mumble came off as trying to change the conversation away from the dick measuring without emphasizing their intent

i missed you answering these, my apologies.
are you townreading Torn Up, in that case?

i don't remember purposely steering any conversation away. as far as i know i showed up around when the fight was dying down.

[Chara]

actually i want to go ahead and call Guilty and Torn Up locktown and go from there.

Hopkirk/NM/Flubber/Mumble
the only one i'm really scumreading is Mumble. i'm not inclined to just sheep RC's read there, considering he was scumreading both Torn Up and myself. Hopkirk later. i was happy about the lack of new pages but there really isn't much to read from Mumble and NM.
naked votes. haha.

[Chara]

it was a joke. hence the laughter. ;>

i'm smart enough to see you're townreading Flubber, should i have asked

why

you are and been more obvious? i can't see him mentioned once in your ISO.

[Chara]

Flubber/Mumble, Flubber townreads me and lumps Mumble and i together for the same reason?

[Chara]

"there are only two scum" doesn't work when your scumpool is three players. i realized Hopkirk isn't in your pool either, why is he town?

you're also still voting me for naked voting on day 1, as far as i can tell. i know why you're scumreading Torn, and Flubber's lack of townread on Torn is enough for a townread from you, too. have you talked about Guilty?

[Chara]

VOTE: Mumble
the day ending quickly is a valid reason for a lack of player interaction, but Mumble already having his pool with that reasoning on Flubber and no interaction, i don't buy. Hopkirk as well. it also reads like an excuse rather than a reason.

[Chara]

I probably haven't talked about GL, but I have notes for me based on his posting D2. Not really focused on the pre-flip associative at this point. I really get my reads from watching how things go between players. It'd be cool if we had a longer day phase this time around.

as long as no one lynches themselves this time, that should not happen.
can you share those notes, then?

pedit: so, what are the reasons you have for Guilty and me?

[Chara]

taking on RC early? you mean his joke vote? he spent the rest of the day agreeing with RC before hammering in usual NM fashion.

[Chara]

town NM does that and scum NM knows he can get away with it.

[Chara]

Why is GL locktown when I'm not?

why are you quoting my earlier townread like it needs to be locktown now because Guilty is locktown?
his posting is supremely genuine and i can see where his thought process is without it all being stated in plain words. real attempts at solving instead of solving that looks good.

[Chara]

POE/scumpool is Flubber, Mumble, NM.

and it sounds like you also have Guilty locktown?

[Chara]

You can usually sort NM through his votes.

i understand the concept, but considering NM has voted town and myself, by this measure i don't know how you've gotten a townread.

and did you answer about NM clashing with RC early? i didn't see any clash but the RVS joke.

[Chara]

Are you saying I'm not trying to solve?

that's a very negative spin on what i was saying. how'd you get that? you don't get to be locktown just by trying to solve the game, i explained why Guilty was specifically very towny.
why are you so insistent on being locktown to me?
what's your read on me and why?

[Chara]

to note, i know you answered about why my posts were better today. i want more specifics.

[Chara]

I read this as 'GL is locktown for real attempts at solving. You're not locktown because your solving only looks good'. Not what you meant?
Townblocks are good.
Townlean.

not what i meant, but i see how you read it now. i was comparing Guilty to a hypothetical scum.
you're not locktown because you've not done anything where i can definitively say "i can't see this as scum," but i also do have reason to townread you.

i... don't know what you mean by your "late yesterday" comments.

pedit: somehow i didn't realize Flubber was at L-1.

[Chara]

Late yesterday wasn't empty.

do you mean late day 1 was good? why?

[Chara]

Flubber: i don't think you talked about this, apologies if i missed it.
you townread Mumble and i for moving on from RC vs Torn Up, but if you think Torn Up could be scum (meaning you're nullreading them), why is that towny? i'd understand if you thought it was TvT, but you don't.

who's scum?

pedit: that's incredibly vague. how do you tell the difference?

[Chara]

...no?
i'm not in the habit of reading my own posts for alignment. i've just posted how i post.

[Chara]

i questioned Flubber and Torn Up's motivations.
and yes, you did make me go back and read my own posts. they're null. but i'm tired of discussing this as you're obviously set on giving me as few answers as possible, so i'll come back later. early posts are early posts.
are you seriously saying to me you're reading me as townier now because i posted content as opposed to less content? that's ridiculously easy to fake.

why

was my EoD content towny, Hopkirk?

[Chara]

I haven't disagreed or felt pinged too much by what Hopkirk's said or his reads themselves, but it all feels a little safe and guarded. Asking Chara why I'm more town than he is doesn't really feel like a useful line of discussion since he is presumably also townreading both of us. Overall I feel like he's probably town but if either of Mumble/Flubber are being badTown then Hopkirk could be playing capable scum. I don't feel particularly good about a hard read on his alignment either way, and that along with Not_Mafia is what's throwing a bit of a wrench into my reads I think.

this is essentially how i feel about Hopkirk.

i'm feeling good about Mumble scum, but i do want to see what he has to say about the reads on him and the wagon.

and NM needs to do something. he's played with me as scum and caught me then, and i could see where his thoughts were. my play here is pretty different from my subpar scum performance.
again, scum bias and i hate meta, but i don't know how else to read him. i'd like Cheeky to answer about the NM townread but i think both heads of that hydra are busy, too.

[Chara]

Fos on Not_mafia.

what did you read that had you come to this?

[Chara]

Yeah, I've read Chara's case on Mumble a few times and it looks pretty good. It, if anything, confirms my belief that Chara is town.

Perhaps trying to intervene on Torn/RC is lamist/easily fakeable, but what incentive does scum have to do it? They have just as much opportunity to look town now as the would have ducking under the drama.

i think lamist behaviour answers your question, though i don't think it was actually lamist. but i realized that i'm still not entirely clear on what posting from Mumble (or me, as i said) was driving away from the Torn Up /RC fight specifically. quote it?

[Chara]

there's no way scum fakeclaims here, right? even if scum Mumble did think he was going down and wanted to out the watcher.
UNVOTE:
it's been a while since i've played an open where counterclaims were even a possibility.

[Chara]

there isn't any way scum Mumble just gives up here in exchange for a watcher claim, anyway.
but both of your scumreads are wrong, Mumble, and you still haven't explained how you've come to them.
Guilty's a better townread than Torn Up, though both are town.

VOTE: Not_Mafia
i kind of like 480 for town.

[Chara]

really, Torn?
i'm not breaking my streak now. why the vote?

[Chara]

I thought for some reason you were playing low key D1 because you might be a PR. I didn't see you scum reading mumble D1 so I assume you're trying to pocket me by encouraging my bad reads. I didn't like you subtly discrediting mumble's claim by putting out the possibility for a counterclaim.

Flubber is looking a little better this page.

why would i need to be scumreading Mumble on day 1 to scumread them today?
what does scum Chara even gain from "discrediting" Mumble's claim? if there's no counterclaim, he's clear. it's not like he'd be less clear because i said i wasn't sure about the claim at first.

[Chara]

not... to mention i was scumreading Mumble on day 1? i'm pretry sure i voted them. not that it's here nor there, your justification for this vote doesn't make sense to me.

[Chara]

I put a sad face with my vote because I don't want you to be scum. :/

i don't want you to be scum either.

[Chara]

oh. i didn't see a softclaim.
i don't know if i agree with claiming here, but at least i know you're town.
are you going to respond to the rest of what i said?

[Chara]

...knowing your alignment doesn't make me less concerned with the fact you're voting me. i'm trying to tell you you're wrong and your reasoning doesn't make sense. i don't know what else to do to show you i'm town or how you managed to come to the conclusion i'm scum with what you've said.

[Chara]

and i really can't play like this as scum.
you didn't see me scumreading Mumble day 1: i told you you were wrong and you're content not even looking? it's frustrating, especially when i became confident Mumble was scum from

today's

play. and you seem to be implying that playing lowkey makes me scummy if i'm not a PR, when it's a factor of simply being in the thread less earlier.

[Chara]

NM is NM and probably scum, Mumble i plain don't know and isn't present to talk to anyway, but you were just in two games with me and know how i work to a point.
i became less confident in my townread after you explained your vote on me (i'd wondered if you wanted to see a reaction to it, or something, before you did), so it's at least nice to know you're town, but still.

[Chara]

Guilty's never scum here. i think Hopkirk is more likely scum than Flubber but don't quote me on that.

[Chara]

Cheeky: why did NM feel town on day 1? getting a read on him one way or the other would be useful. he looks like town NM to me but it's hard to feel confident in it.

chara what changed from 435 (NM looks like town) to 512 (NM is NM and probably scum)? I dislike your phrasing in 512 and have a hard time believing town!you would say something like that.

-tor

for some reason i thought Flubber and Hopkirk were unlikely to be scum together. looking for why i felt that now, i don't actually see what made me think that definitively. it's possible, but i don't think it's the case.
when i said he looks like town NM, i mean he looks like the games i remember with NM where he was town. i don't know what he looks like as scum or really how to read him, but i can see some town thought process in both Flubber and Hopkirk's posting, so NM is left as the most likely scumflip to me considering his reads.

not caught up if there are pages before this one, sorry all. back to normal tomorrow, hopefully.

[Chara]

Guilty's never scum here. i think Hopkirk is more likely scum than Flubber but don't quote me on that.

chara can you go through your GL townread for me please?

-tor

i'm not sure how much more i can go into it besides what i've said. 431 is the best example of what i meant when i talked about it earlier. the angle he describes here fits with his earlier posting while not being immediately apparent there, in a way that doesn't look at all like scum trying to fake a good progression. and temporarily assuming i'm town (i think that's what he meant) to try and work that angle is something i'm not sure scum would fake.

and i really can't play like this as scum.
you didn't see me scumreading Mumble day 1: i told you you were wrong and you're content not even looking? it's frustrating, especially when i became confident Mumble was scum from

today's

play. and you seem to be implying that playing lowkey makes me scummy if i'm not a PR, when it's a factor of simply being in the thread less earlier.

chara can you self meta to me in a way that explains how this isn't how you play as scum?

-tor

when i'm scum i often get too self-conscious about my posting, to the point it comes off looking fake. i don't have a great opinion of my scumgame to begin with, so it pretty much makes it worse. or else i hide from the thread entirely. i'm not sure what the actual difference in how my posts

look

is but i've heard enough from others that my scum posting is stilted and just, bad. when in hydra with Almost as scum, i lean on him heavily, and when i've soloed i've pretty much bombed.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=73987
Danganronpa U-pick was the most recent example. i was playing on my alt (Korekiyo) but i didn't alter my play or anything. it's just a minor roleplay account.

[Chara]

if Guilty's town, oh well. but i really doubt he is and i don't think i'd be wrong here. it has to be in NM/Flubber/Hopkirk. even if i'm wrong on NM, we win.

[Chara]

*scum, whoops.

[Chara]

Hopkirk: will you vote NM? is it still NM/Flubber for you?

[Chara]

hahaha.

[Chara]

Not counterclaiming. I'm just really fucking stupid today.

This is probably the most embarrassing game I've played in a while regardless of my alignment.

UNVOTE:

town. probably.

probably dumb to townread this post but i do what i want.
NM/Hopkirk. yay.

[Chara]

Flubber missing claims not once but twice and attacking both clears about their reads on me is both hilarious and saddening, because it's both of the clears and their reads on me.

[Chara]

at most it might give him some towncred after my flip, but the messy way it happened just looks town.
i don't know, it's 1 am.

Mumble/NM: who's my buddy?

[Chara]

Hopkirk: i agree with both of the stances Flubber had on Mumble and Torn Up, and agreeing with me is one tick for the townpile. posting without reading is a minor towntell but could possibly be ignored.
just felt good and natural with how he was frustrated with himself

Flubber: oh, i agree. the saddening part was because both clears are badly reading me.

how likely is it Flubber is hard-pocketing me? i don't know. if he's partners with NM i don't know if his stance makes sense here considering both clears are scumreading me. there isn't a lot of towncred to be had in correctly calling a mislynch, especially when it doesn't flip.
it's possible it's the longgame and scum not wanting to agree with bad arguments.
it's not like i'm locked in, so i'm not worried about it.

Hopkirk: why are you so convinced on Flubber scum? is there no way NM and i are bussing to you?

[Chara]

Hopkirk/Flubber is possible, Hopkirk's voting him but there's not really support for a Flubber wagon. they might be content with the NM/me split.
NM/Flubber is about the same.

[Chara]

You were leaning slightly towards me in 514. Flubber already agreed with you then on those reads. I'm asking what changed to make him harder town?
I am not convinced on Flubber scum. You/NM is also possible. I didn't say it wasn't. Flubber/NM seems slightly more likely.

his post on Mumble in particular and subsequent "i'm an idiot" moment. looking at it now it's less strong but i still like the townread.

do you think he's pocketing me?

[Chara]

@Chara: Actually I was under the impression Flubber intended to reread after this. Maybe not. Seems an oddly strong townread.
Also increases chance of Flubber/Chara for me.

it's not locktown. it's a townread.
why is it oddly strong?

you haven't talked about why Flubber is scummy.

[Chara]

Oddly strong:
One reason Flubber had you as town was your Mumble case.
He still liked/s it after realizing Mumble is confirmed town.

Flubber said he liked my case for Mumble scum, thus informing the read on me. Mumble being town doesn't suddenly change their scummy play.
and i'm not townreading Flubber because he's townreading me.

[Chara]

I really don't have a solution to this game outside of town is fucked right now.

we're really not. we have a mislynch before lylo.

[Chara]

Later- due to claims and GL townread- he moved to a three-person POE pool. He’ll be in 2/3 of teams there. That’s the pool I’m trying to sort. NM and Chara have more votes so I haven’t switched yet.

why're you townreading Guilty?

[Chara]

none of my scumreads. excellent.
i'm not lynching out of Hopkirk/NM except to avoid an NL.

[Chara]

i've been in two games with town NM and no with scum NM. he was reasonably active in both. it's not NAI as long as there's no scumgame evidence but considering PoE it just makes sense.

Hopkirk: i was never "pushing you to put Guilty locktown".

i'd like to hear from Torn Up before night if possible but it isn't really a big deal.

[Chara]

NM is hard to read but he isn't impossible. being null isn't a good reason not to be scum. at all. he's only voted town this game. and honestly the thought of scum NM coasting on not doing anything because lolmeta is a bad one.
Hopkirk needs to hammer his buddy before night, though. and should also do so if he's town. :>

pedit: oh, there we go.

[Chara]

Meant to respond to 567 there:
Why else is Flubber town then? Your first point is because he's supporting you and has you as town.

i explained why he's a townlean. he feels genuine and i really can't see the agenda scum Flubber would be having here. i've considered buddying, yes.

maybe stubbornness at this point. the TvS thing you said you didn't like (and i also didn't) is something but weighing against the rest of Flubber's posting i see where he's trying to solve.

pedit: oh hello!

i also see where you are. moreso recently than not.
i'm wrong somewhere but a scumflip should help find that.

[Chara]

huh. the pedit should just be hello. whole post is to Hopkirk otherwise.

[Chara]

POE/scumpool is Flubber, Mumble, NM.

and it sounds like you also have Guilty locktown?

@Chara: This is why I thought that.

well, that was a question. not pushing you to locktown him but asking if he was. that's often a part of PoE.

[Chara]

Sup

so who's scum with Flubber? still me?

[Chara]

~Chara progression is yuck and doesn't make sense: Didn’t like Chara until they voted eth0s first (which was a blah vote given the slot had like 2 posts). Chara moves to null. Then likes Chara’s D1 iso (but it could be scum!Chara faking), so assumes town. Then Chara is definite town because she pulls off an easy to fake “why are you town reading me” play. Chara is now in locktown spot. TU and I claim, Chara drops from lock town spot. Now “thinks” Chara is town. What changed?

half of this is dismissing reasons to townread me because scum could fake them.
i'm sensitive to buddying attempts and i don't think these are it. i waa actually expecting the townread on me to vanish after eth0s's flip, as scum Guilty could easily fake that, but he kept it on.
saying that now i realize your Guilty read is predicated on scum me.

[Chara]

well, good to know we're losing.

except not really, the day isn't over yet.

Guilty: i think you're towny, unless you're serious about flipping on me today, which i don't believe you are. :>

not discounting Guilty scum here, i just don't find it likely. the problem is there are reasons for Flubber and Hopkirk to be town too.

[Chara]

but, no, i probably should actually go over everything to make sure that's legitimate.
Toranaga: please do get into the game. read it. compare with my linked game, do whatever. i'd rather not lose because you're disengaged.

this is normally the part where i feel bad for leading a lynch on town yesterday, and maybe i can blame myself later for townreading scum, but i really don't.

[Chara]

i know it's lylo, but it doesn't feel like it. micros.

i don't want to throw away my Guilty townread. it's one i feel very good about and those are usually right. Flubber/Hopkirk seems too PoE but i think it has to be them.
but my radar has also been bad this game. let's see what Guilty says.

[Chara]

i had a gut townread based on little.
that he continued to not post, vote me, and generally be unhelpful when i know he's seen my town and scumgames and can be helpful town despite being a lurker made he think he was probably just scum. and i had no real reasons to townread him, which is usually a great candidate for scum in the absence of good scumreads.

[Chara]

by being helpful town i mean being on scum wagons. the only time he changed his vote was when Flubber missed Mumble's claim. i thought his later vote switch to Flubber was also because he thought i wouldn't be lynched over him.

[Chara]

no, i remember what changed it. i thought Mumble was scum for most of the day.

[Chara]

don't resist it.
<3

this is where i shine.

but not having confirmed scum to me makes this more difficult. i'm going to attempt to both scumcase Guilty and towncase him and see what i get.

[Chara]

at the time of my post, you were still on Flubber.
possibly a good point against you two being teamed, but i don't discount bussing and need to go look at that.

[Chara]

it's ok, neither have i.

Hopkirk: yes, you're right. i misremembered.
i'm not discounting bussing or cautious scum.

[Chara]

i haven't actually looked at Guilty again yet but i have a hard time seeing his post as one from scum. the read on me is wrong but considering how all the dead players have been reading me i don't even think it's unfair to have.

[Chara]

is it really impossible that Hopkirk doesn't bus his buddy here? i should just go back and read it. eventually. by eventually i mean now.

[Chara]

Flubber - 3 - hopkirk, guiltylion, torn up
Chara - 2 - not mafia, mumble
Mumble - 1 - chara

but, no, this doesn't really make sense. NM and Mumble were both on me, Torn Up could have easily gone there, and it wouldn't have looked strange for Hopkirk to flip me here.

pedit: i've seen scum do ridiculous busses precisely because regular bussing is expected.

[Chara]

Main notable thing in both ISOs was the mutual hard townreads. These seemed too hard. Interacted with both over them. Didn't like how Chara reacted to my locktown on GL.

i've already explained my Guilty townread.
it's easy for players of a certain type to see why i'm town. it's why i don't get mislynched. Guilty recognizing as such when the rest of the game doesn't has no scum utility.

that he's still acknowledging it now while saying he'd lynch me sort of hurts that, especially considering he also agreed NM was likely scum, but the fear of having me suspected all game and then losing to me in lylo and feeling dumb about it is also one i understand and feels genuine.

[Chara]

If me switching to you wouldn't have looked strange then that's evidence against me/Flubber.

i know. that's what i meant with the post.

[Chara]

GL's read is also consistent as town. If he's town and Flubber/Hopkrik aren't mafia together then Chara is on both possible teams.

@GL: Can you think of anything that makes Flubber/you implausible?

is this post to me? what do you mean by town Guilty? you just said he's scum with me.

[Chara]

oh. Chara/Flubber or Chara/Guilty.

if Guilty's scum i suck. i'll be back later.

[Chara]

that's not me saying i think he is.

[Chara]

Why is it unlikely GL- who didn't explain his townread on you significantly- wasn't 'townreading' you while intending to turn on you?

i don't know. i suppose it hasn't happened to me before.
he didn't need to explain it more than he had because i think i've been pretty towny.
at least, trying hard enough to look town that it usually works and players pick up on it.

[Chara]

Chara/GL

Main notable thing in both ISOs was the mutual hard townreads. These seemed too hard. Interacted with both over them. Didn't like how Chara reacted to my locktown on GL. Didn't really understand GL's- especially 479 where I didn't understand the read strenghtening. Somewhat concerned about GL's read presentation. Hard, but not explained enough to justify the hard townread. The lack of explination positions GL nicely to let GL bus today.

Still not sure whether scum go for such a bold play of mutual hard townreads followed by this lylo play.

i thought this was you saying this is what you thought.

[Chara]

i see it's not.

Flubber, please come post if you're the town in this.

[Chara]

i don't remember being concerned Flubber was pocketing me, but i probably did say so.
i think i considered Guilty too. and Guilty was a better townread.

[Chara]

great.

[Chara]

no, actually, why that conclusion?
Guilty's been townreading Flubber in the same way i have. he's part of the reason i have the read.
what are you independent reads on Flubber and Guilty?

[Chara]

chara I don't understand how you can come to lylo with GL 180ing his read on you and suggest your lynch, and not react to it with any suspicion.

-tor

when you put it like that, it sounds silly.

[Chara]

i know i have to read the walls.
i thought Guilty was reaction-testing when he declared intent to vote me, but when he explained where he was at, i thought he'd just come to a wrong conclusion based on my reads this game, which haven't been great.
thinking about it now, i think Guilty's reads have been the same as mine, so i don't know how valid it is.

VOTE: Guilty

[Chara]

no need to pretend it isn't you/Guilty, Hopkirk.

[Chara]

i am cursed for saying so, but 666
i do have to say, though. you believe alive in lylo isn't what makes you scum. killing Mumble just makes more sense, even with his bad reads, and RC was obvious town on night 1. :>

[Chara]

*being alive, not believe alive.

[Chara]

RC also wanted me quicklynched. ;>

but yes, you're right. what gives you away is what Cheeky said about your stances. just a bit too clinical and convenient.
hindsight is 20/20, too. in the end it was mainly Flubber being ridiculously towny upon a reread.

[Chara]

well, i'm probably biased.
your style is certainly one i get to gut-scumread.

[Chara]

*tend to, not get. i am so tired.

[Chara]

Strange how the two people who died were both certain you were scum.

i agree. odd, isn't it? but it's happened a few times to me in the past.
sort of.

[Chara]

honestly whenever you made a wallpost i would sigh inwardly and wonder if i could get away with pretending to read it.

pedit: EST! i just woke up for class.

[Chara]

oh, don't get me wrong, it was not that much wallposting. you're fine, i think. a good mix of minor walls and meaningful short posts.
i vaguely remember getting frustrated somewhere with vague answers, but who knows when that was.

[Chara]

i thought it was shallow to say i got better because i got more engaged, but honestly, town thinks that all the time and being disengaged can be a legitimate scumtell. at the time it seemed like a great idea, though.

[Chara]

sorry Toranaga. was having a little fun.
it's not slowrolling if we already hammered! <3

[Chara]

hey, i may have won, but there goes my town meta.

[Chara]

[Chara]

ok, the real reason was i was mildly paranoid that it was somehow not hammer, even though i knew it was.

[Chara]

thank you!
my biggest worry was accidentally incriminating Hopkirk. i thought i was caught the whole game.

[Chara]

this gameday I read the whole thing and while your d1 was wolfy, I thought you picked up nicely and was especially not wolfing with hopkirk so there goes my scumhunting in these goddamned MS games

i did try to prepare myself for my flip, so i'm glad Chara/Hopkirk seemed less likely, at least to you.

[Chara]

I feel my cricisms of the case/673 were valid.

haha, your posts were all valid. this is why i scumread consistent logic!

[Chara]

so am i!

[Chara]

i considered avoiding killing you to avoid incriminating myself, but you were obvtown and going to push me anyway, so it just made more sense.

[Chara]

well, i've learned something. good game, everyone. good job on catching me immediately.