Team Mafia 2018: White Flag — Day Six

[Thestatusquo]

I wasn't open to changing my stance.

If you look at this post:
viewtopic.php?p=9924772#p9924772

You'll see I explicitly said that, and I think I gave good reasons for it. I did not think that I could get a better read on srceenplay in 2-3 days than I got on tchill in the 12 days leading up to that. I did not think srceenplay could erase tchills play.

[Postie]

If your problem was that Tchill had ruined the slot, why did you also attack Srceenplay's play? Like I get that if you thought Tchill was scum, that makes Srceenplay scum too and you'll be viewing his actions in that light, but I feel like if the driving factor behind your push was Tchill's play then a more natural response would be to say "look your predecessor was scum so I'm not going to bother to sort you or interact with you".

I also feel your case against Tchill was pretty weak to begin with and don't understand why it warranted writing him off as scum without being willing to reconsider. From what I can see your reasoning was basically that he was lurking...?

[Davsto]

So, Eddie Meta. First to note is that I'll be referencing this post a lot as it's a good sum up of Postie's claimed town- and scum-meta re:Eddie.

First thing to note is that, while the chosen games are from last year (which initially concerned me with regards to cherry picking) they are indeed the two most recent (substantial) games Eddie has played in. This is also a general comment that I'm fairly happy with their assessment of their two games. I don't think the difference is as blindingly obvious as painted, however. Also, I will note that his TBD play (scum) becomes a fair bit more like his Night and Day (town) play as the game continues, which muddies the whole thing a little for me.

Now, the other games:
Paint Mafia Mania (SCUM) - while more recent than the other two, this game is the reason why the qualifier "substantial" is in the paragraph above - an entire 9 posts, due to a personal situation ("unforeseen life stuff"), a fast moving game, and eventual replace out. So, while largely it could be NAI (as pretty much all could be equally explained with the lack of full engagement with the game due to being behind), I do notice even in this tiny sample that a fair few of Postie's meta-indicators are present.
Hunger Games II (SCUM) - this is a hydra game with Bulbazak (to find Eddie's posts, use Ctrl+f and search "-Fenix", as he signs all but his first post with this). Another of Postie's points is here - a very small number of reads. Pretty much the first half of Eddie's posts refer to a single player (Creeps). And yep, a lot of questions which aren't followed up on, and.. yeh you get the idea. I was honestly expecting to have a fair bit to argue against Postie with but... this is pretty much as they say. I'm almost disappointed.
Team Mafia 2015: Mod Error Mafia (TOWN) - four posts, nothing to see here.
Team Mafia 2015: 8:4 Vanilla Nightless (TOWN) - this one's a teeny bit more ambiguous, as there are a few early posts where questions aren't followed up on and a smaller number of players are engaged with. But who am I kidding - this is quickly resolved, questions are followed, he gets mulitple more reads quickly, his posting is indepth and lacks fluff.

Dammit Postie, when you're right, you're right.

VOTE: EddieFenix

[Postie]

It's not like you can, with your play, make it so tchill did not play to his scum meta.

Can you give me links for the Tchill scum meta you referenced here?
When I asked Dunn he couldn't find me anything.

[Dunnstral]

So, Eddie Meta. First to note is that I'll be referencing this post a lot as it's a good sum up of Postie's claimed town- and scum-meta re:Eddie.

First thing to note is that, while the chosen games are from last year (which initially concerned me with regards to cherry picking) they are indeed the two most recent (substantial) games Eddie has played in. This is also a general comment that I'm fairly happy with their assessment of their two games. I don't think the difference is as blindingly obvious as painted, however. Also, I will note that his TBD play (scum) becomes a fair bit more like his Night and Day (town) play as the game continues, which muddies the whole thing a little for me.

Now, the other games:
Paint Mafia Mania (SCUM) - while more recent than the other two, this game is the reason why the qualifier "substantial" is in the paragraph above - an entire 9 posts, due to a personal situation ("unforeseen life stuff"), a fast moving game, and eventual replace out. So, while largely it could be NAI (as pretty much all could be equally explained with the lack of full engagement with the game due to being behind), I do notice even in this tiny sample that a fair few of Postie's meta-indicators are present.
Hunger Games II (SCUM) - this is a hydra game with Bulbazak (to find Eddie's posts, use Ctrl+f and search "-Fenix", as he signs all but his first post with this). Another of Postie's points is here - a very small number of reads. Pretty much the first half of Eddie's posts refer to a single player (Creeps). And yep, a lot of questions which aren't followed up on, and.. yeh you get the idea. I was honestly expecting to have a fair bit to argue against Postie with but... this is pretty much as they say. I'm almost disappointed.
Team Mafia 2015: Mod Error Mafia (TOWN) - four posts, nothing to see here.
Team Mafia 2015: 8:4 Vanilla Nightless (TOWN) - this one's a teeny bit more ambiguous, as there are a few early posts where questions aren't followed up on and a smaller number of players are engaged with. But who am I kidding - this is quickly resolved, questions are followed, he gets mulitple more reads quickly, his posting is indepth and lacks fluff.

Dammit Postie, when you're right, you're right.

VOTE: EddieFenix

Will take a look at this later, will likely vote eddie if I agree

[Thestatusquo]

If your problem was that Tchill had ruined the slot, why did you also attack Srceenplay's play? Like I get that if you thought Tchill was scum, that makes Srceenplay scum too and you'll be viewing his actions in that light, but I feel like if the driving factor behind your push was Tchill's play then a more natural response would be to say "look your predecessor was scum so I'm not going to bother to sort you or interact with you".

a)
Is that not exactly what the post I just linked you says?
b)
My goal with srceenplay was to not let him wiggle out of the lynch as scum. All my posts were done with that in mind. Does that look bad for me now that he's flipped town? Yeah, but that's where my thought process was.

I don't think I did do a lot of attacking him though, I think you need to reread the end of the day. I mainly pointed out where I thought he was being logically inconsistent in his defense of himself/tchill. Mostly I just tried to make sure he couldn't stop the lynch. Which is what I do with players who I think are scum.

[Thestatusquo]

It's not like you can, with your play, make it so tchill did not play to his scum meta.

Can you give me links for the Tchill scum meta you referenced here?
When I asked Dunn he couldn't find me anything.

Most of it comes from the game that LQ keeps referencing where I was scum with him. I even mentioned it earlier in this game where I said that he was playing similarly to how he was playing in that game here, although more outwardly lurky here than he was there.

There's more to meta than lurking. I pointed out in that PT that I was able to write off tchill as a Vi because of the same posting pattern that made me think he was scum here. The difference is, I know from interacting with him in the PT that he knows better than that. He plays up a part when he's scum. It felt like he was playing that part here.

[Ranmaru]

I'd like to talk about your CES read, Shea. I'm good with the rest of your reads. I'm at work so will go over it in a bit.

[Davsto]

If it seems like I'm a little annoyed that's because I somewhat am because if that meta had been obviously wrong then I'd have the Postie slot down as scum easy peasy bam and that would be one of my biggest troubles in this game shut down

But even with that and even if Fenix flips red, Postie could still be scum because she's being guided by RC and we all know he's rather bus-hungry

Don't get me wrong, that good meta has definitely put Postie on a townread for now and I'll probably not be actively scumhunting the slot for a couple of days (especially if Fenix flips red) but still I've got to play the game with such uneasiness

[Thestatusquo]

If it seems like I'm a little annoyed that's because I somewhat am because if that meta had been obviously wrong then I'd have the Postie slot down as scum easy peasy bam and that would be one of my biggest troubles in this game shut down

But even with that and even if Fenix flips red, Postie could still be scum because she's being guided by RC and we all know he's rather bus-hungry

Don't get me wrong, that good meta has definitely put Postie on a townread for now and I'll probably not be actively scumhunting the slot for a couple of days (especially if Fenix flips red) but still I've got to play the game with such uneasiness

What do you think of RC/Postie's case on me and how does it make you feel about the slot?

[Thestatusquo]

I'd like to talk about your CES read, Shea. I'm good with the rest of your reads. I'm at work so will go over it in a bit.

Sure, though I'd note that the middle of my read list (esp. the category ces is in) is just of nebulous and subject to changes at a moments notice. Sort of how like Davsto has managed to pop out of it into the strong town lean with his posting today.

So obviously I'm interested in your perspectives on those slots in particular.

[Dunnstral]

If it seems like I'm a little annoyed that's because I somewhat am because if that meta had been obviously wrong then I'd have the Postie slot down as scum easy peasy bam and that would be one of my biggest troubles in this game shut down

But even with that and even if Fenix flips red, Postie could still be scum because she's being guided by RC and we all know he's rather bus-hungry

Don't get me wrong, that good meta has definitely put Postie on a townread for now and I'll probably not be actively scumhunting the slot for a couple of days (especially if Fenix flips red) but still I've got to play the game with such uneasiness

I think if eddie flips scum postie is probably town though

Remember the setup we're in, we don't even have to lynch postie to win if she's scum

[Postie]

a)
Is that not exactly what the post I just linked you says?

The linked post? Yes. Other posts (1166, 1168, 1172)? No.

b)
My goal with srceenplay was to not let him wiggle out of the lynch as scum. All my posts were done with that in mind. Does that look bad for me now that he's flipped town? Yeah, but that's where my thought process was.

It didn't feel like your posts were really targeted at the rest of the thread though, from the way you were speaking. Like when I've interacted with Eddie I've pointed stuff out to the thread by talking to him, even though it was meant for everyone else, but I was loud and "hey guys look at this" about it. And I don't get those kind of vibes from your posts but it could also just be your personality so, like, idk. :////

[Thestatusquo]

I was trying to win the fight. The louder player wins the fight every single time.

I think if you compare that to my interactions with others in this thread you'll notice that I have different tones for different purposes. You are right that I was using my "I am going to make sure this lynch is happening" tone. I think I had pretty good town reasons to do so. As I explained, exactly what you are accusing me of is what I was trying to do at the end of the day. We just disagree on my motivations.

[Thestatusquo]

Also, Ran, when you get a chance I'd like your opinion on Postie-Davsto cases on eddie.

[Postie]

Yeah but that's the thing - your tone

didn't

feel loud. It felt more like you were pushing the lynch in a low-key way.
Ehh, it's whatever right now I guess.

RC says he's not too sure you're scum right now either he just hates the thought of scum taking a town leader position and preventing people from leading on scum.
I'd agree that if I die tonight, you're basically in a great position to lead town, and that's a scary thought in a TSQ!scum world.

[Thestatusquo]

Yeah but that's the thing - your tone

didn't

feel loud. It felt more like you were pushing the lynch in a low-key way.
Ehh, it's whatever right now I guess.

RC says he's not too sure you're scum right now either he just hates the thought of scum taking a town leader position and preventing people from leading on scum.
I'd agree that if I die tonight, you're basically in a great position to lead town, and that's a scary thought in a TSQ!scum world.

I'm saying here right now that I was not pushing the lynch in a low key way. I was pushing the lynch. I succeeded. I was wrong.

My problem with this argument is just that I don't think anything about the way I've interacted today has suggested that I was trying to benefit from not being associated with the tchill lynch. If the argument is that I'm low key pushing it, one would assume that the scum motivation for doing that would be that I didn't want to get blamed for it. I just can't see how you square that thought with anything I've done or said since.

The second part is the first reasonable thing that RC has said about my slot so far.

[Postie]

My problem with this argument is just that I don't think anything about the way I've interacted today has suggested that I was trying to benefit from not being associated with the tchill lynch. If the argument is that I'm low key pushing it, one would assume that the scum motivation for doing that would be that I didn't want to get blamed for it. I just can't see how you square that thought with anything I've done or said since.

Nah it's more like
It felt like you didn't want to sit back too far so you interacted with Tchill to seem ~involved~ while not actually getting so involved as to draw attention to yourself

[Postie]

*Srceenplay, not Tchill

[Thestatusquo]

My problem with this argument is just that I don't think anything about the way I've interacted today has suggested that I was trying to benefit from not being associated with the tchill lynch. If the argument is that I'm low key pushing it, one would assume that the scum motivation for doing that would be that I didn't want to get blamed for it. I just can't see how you square that thought with anything I've done or said since.

Nah it's more like
It felt like you didn't want to sit back too far so you interacted with Tchill to seem ~involved~ while not actually getting so involved as to draw attention to yourself

I don't think thats a fair assessment of my play at all.

[Davsto]

If it seems like I'm a little annoyed that's because I somewhat am because if that meta had been obviously wrong then I'd have the Postie slot down as scum easy peasy bam and that would be one of my biggest troubles in this game shut down

But even with that and even if Fenix flips red, Postie could still be scum because she's being guided by RC and we all know he's rather bus-hungry

Don't get me wrong, that good meta has definitely put Postie on a townread for now and I'll probably not be actively scumhunting the slot for a couple of days (especially if Fenix flips red) but still I've got to play the game with such uneasiness

What do you think of RC/Postie's case on me and how does it make you feel about the slot?

I can see where their case is coming from even if I don't necessarily agree - I too would be a little uneasy with a strongly townread player pushing hard on someone who flipped town, yet still being strongly townread. I disagree that you're scum for it (since the slot lynched was a very scummy-acting slot and I can find many games where I or other players pushed hard on a slot they believed to be scum but flipped town), but get the gist.

[MathBlade]

Votecount 2.3

EddieFenix(4)

~ LicketyQuickety, Postie, Thestatusquo, Davsto

Marquis(3)

~ EddieFenix, Gamma Emerald, Cogito Ergo Sum

LicketyQuickety(1)

~ Ranmaru

Cogito Ergo Sum(1)

~ Lycanfire


Not Voting (4): Marquis, ActionDan, northsidegal, Dunnstral

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2018-02-18 19:30:00)

MOD NOTES

Had to skim if I missed something let me know. Long as fuck days at work.

[Gamma Emerald]

So, Eddie Meta. First to note is that I'll be referencing this post a lot as it's a good sum up of Postie's claimed town- and scum-meta re:Eddie.

First thing to note is that, while the chosen games are from last year (which initially concerned me with regards to cherry picking) they are indeed the two most recent (substantial) games Eddie has played in. This is also a general comment that I'm fairly happy with their assessment of their two games. I don't think the difference is as blindingly obvious as painted, however. Also, I will note that his TBD play (scum) becomes a fair bit more like his Night and Day (town) play as the game continues, which muddies the whole thing a little for me.

Now, the other games:
Paint Mafia Mania (SCUM) - while more recent than the other two, this game is the reason why the qualifier "substantial" is in the paragraph above - an entire 9 posts, due to a personal situation ("unforeseen life stuff"), a fast moving game, and eventual replace out. So, while largely it could be NAI (as pretty much all could be equally explained with the lack of full engagement with the game due to being behind), I do notice even in this tiny sample that a fair few of Postie's meta-indicators are present.
Hunger Games II (SCUM) - this is a hydra game with Bulbazak (to find Eddie's posts, use Ctrl+f and search "-Fenix", as he signs all but his first post with this). Another of Postie's points is here - a very small number of reads. Pretty much the first half of Eddie's posts refer to a single player (Creeps). And yep, a lot of questions which aren't followed up on, and.. yeh you get the idea. I was honestly expecting to have a fair bit to argue against Postie with but... this is pretty much as they say. I'm almost disappointed.
Team Mafia 2015: Mod Error Mafia (TOWN) - four posts, nothing to see here.
Team Mafia 2015: 8:4 Vanilla Nightless (TOWN) - this one's a teeny bit more ambiguous, as there are a few early posts where questions aren't followed up on and a smaller number of players are engaged with. But who am I kidding - this is quickly resolved, questions are followed, he gets mulitple more reads quickly, his posting is indepth and lacks fluff.

Dammit Postie, when you're right, you're right.

VOTE: EddieFenix

This looks more like comparing his play to what Postie has said of his meta rather than to what you perceive as his meta
And also, why don't you throw in TBD and N&D and see which one is less incongruous with it's respective alignment's meta?

[Davsto]

This looks more like comparing his play to what Postie has said of his meta rather than to what you perceive as his meta

I'm not hugely great with meta, and this was as much to help guide me as to Postie's alignment as it was Fenix, so my aim was to check if Postie's points seemed valid for the games she listed (they did) and to use that as a jumping off point to look at other games and compare. It looks like that because it sorta is, but when someone's already done a pretty comprehensive list of meta tells what do you expect me to do? Ignore them and find silly obscure ones?

And also, why don't you throw in TBD and N&D and see which one is less incongruous with it's respective alignment's meta?

Because on a look through neither seemed particularly incongruous, and I see no point in putting a lot of time into a post which would literally just be "yeh so it's pretty much mostly as postie says tbh", if that makes sense.

[Postie]

@TSQ:

RC wants to reach out in case you're town. He says he thought discrediting you was important in case you were scum, but that he wasn't lockscumming you and that we'll leave you alone if you work with us. He says a large concern he had was that you locktown'd me early and he wants to know where that came from. He also agrees with a big portion of your readslist except Davsto.