Team Mafia 2018: Game 3 - Random GIFs Game Over

[Titus]

are you fucking kidding me

Been there as both alignments. Either you do what town asks and talk about your hammer and simplify or no one cares. Had to do that with VCA too.

I sympsthize on a human level.

[chesskid3]

hes mad that he writes 2000 words and I write 20

[chesskid3]

caught for no reason at all

[Radja]

I'm done with this game for today. Do whatever the hell you want. I don't care. Lynch Titus or lynch me. Nobody else is getting lynched. If you lynch me, lynch Titus tomorrow.

[Bins]

VOTE: Titus

Skrew is calling y’all mean names
but seriously I’ll sum up what he’s saying later

[chesskid3]

Bad Boy

[Bins]

no to radja bad bad

[chesskid3]

Bins

[Bins]

u and tbone gotta stop acting disappointed in meeeeee

actually tbone stopped hes ok now

[chesskid3]

But I am disappointed in u

[Radja]

My team talked me into posting the hammer conversation. I'm out now.
Had to get mod confirmation if it was okay to paraphrase from the discord channel directly. Got clearance.



Radja - Titus put me as null/scum after transcend posted that obvtownread. WEIRD
Reck - you should hammer fitz if he gets to L-1
Radja - ok
Cheet - If I reread this game, I think Titus might be my strongest scumread
Radja - I wouldn't mind fitz or Titus dying rn
Radja - fitz is at L-1
Cheet - How long before deadline?
Reck - Really?
Radja - yeah, Bulba just voted him. 1 day 9 hours left
Reck - QUICK HAMMER
Cheet - ehm
Radja - Should I?
Reck - yes!
Cheet - why? did fitz claim?
Reck - He'll get town credit if fitz flips scum and maybe gets nightkilled. Or if fitz is town can probably pin 2 scum on that wagon. Don't wanna deal with claims
Radja - Cheet, do it?
Cheet - he could be confirmable? I wouldn't...but I'm not much of a risktaker...so...
Radja - me neither. more like not at all.
Reck - If I was in the game and this was the LLD slot, I wouldn't think twice
Cheet- Up to you Radja, It'll make you really lynchable.
Radja - very
Cheet - you'll feel the effects of it for the rest of the game if fitz flips town.
Reck - If you get hear for fitz town, I can read people easier. I think math is going to gun for Radja anyway, so whatever? I know I play differently than you guys.
Cheet- LLD and Transcend are probably not both scum?
Radja - I don't know what to do.
Cheet - Titus scum means fitz is probably town?
Radja - If I knew I could talk my way out of a mislynch, I wouldn't be hesitating.
Reck - Don't think Titus is scum. She's easy to lynch. That's why I like the counterwagon
Cheet - Trancend looked like scum
Reck - LLD posts were ATE, don't like her reach out to me.
Radja - I could use more risks in my gameplay
Reck - one day left, don't want a flashwagon
Radja - hiplop, your thoughts?
hiplop - I'm behind, I thought titus was scum earlier. fitz would be my other guess. LLD looked like scum to me
Radja - ok I'll do it. I might get vigged?
Radja - I did it
Reck - ooooh
Radja - post the flip!

[T-Bone]

I present you my(well, mostly shea's) case on why Titus is scum
Lets start looking at previous games.

As scum, Titus tends to reach out a lot, tries to be very friendly and has a history of buddying. Here are some examples from this game:

I'm gonna read the rest of your post but...

If this is true, (and you believe this to be true) this isn't happening in this game.

Sorry, I was inviting your rebuttal, Radja.

[ChannelDelibird]

#lifefindsawaytogetintheway

Radja is town (mostly because Reck is town) and I don’t think we should be allowed to do (or pretend to do) the above kind of thing.

My take on the Titus case is that I am tempted by it, but as previously mentioned am essentially unable to divine intent from anything that Titus does. I haven’t been able to fully check out rebuttals to Bulbazak but I admittedly just want to test the theory at this point.

It is going to be another busy few days but I owe this game my next couple of lunches at work in between all of the goings-on. I’m determined to stay afloat here but do appreciate that this is even more frustrating for y’all than it is for me.

[Mathdino]

CDB go respond to keychain's rebuttal

[Aeronaut]

UNVOTE:

[chesskid3]

u got force replaced dude

[Bins]

skrew says:

@dino
- how can u say "I don't have an agenda behind this dialogue ftr, I'm currently still evaluating where {Radja, T-Bone, Titus, Bulbazak} stand in my head." and less than an hour later say "and expecting me not to vote you when you're trying to gladiate a strong townread of mine" especially with the case here
- there is no reason to townread titus because she's being confused/stupid/moonlogic-y (and I agree with this, it's her thing) and he links viewtopic.php?f=56&t=58913 game to show that titus was getting wrongly townread for that very same reason
- something something replicates moonlogic easily as scum

[Bins]

also imp says
- radja is blatantly town and his scumflip would shock him
- radja should be SHOCKED that people scumread him cause he thinks he should feel obvtown

[chesskid3]

not enough skrew vitriol directed at me

try again

[Mathdino]

Bins tell your team I'm a little peeved that they choose now of all points to finally get involved in this game.

skrew says:

@dino
- how can u say "I don't have an agenda behind this dialogue ftr, I'm currently still evaluating where {Radja, T-Bone, Titus, Bulbazak} stand in my head." and less than an hour later say "and expecting me not to vote you when you're trying to gladiate a strong townread of mine" especially with the case here
- there is no reason to townread titus because she's being confused/stupid/moonlogic-y (and I agree with this, it's her thing) and he links viewtopic.php?f=56&t=58913 game to show that titus was getting wrongly townread for that very same reason
- something something replicates moonlogic easily as scum

1. I was using the dialogue to help me figure out my reads and where T-Bone stood. I came out of the dialogue (and Radja's case) still townreading Titus.
2. I'll check that out.
3. Understood, thanks.

also imp says
- radja is blatantly town and his scumflip would shock him
- radja should be SHOCKED that people scumread him cause he thinks he should feel obvtown

After a little space/time from this game, I can agree with this. I'll policy hammer him if I have to but I'm not going to play into this 1v1. The gladiating thing is still pissing me off. As is that case. But w/e

VOTE: Bulbazak

[Dunkerdoodles]

are you fucking kidding me

i sympathize with this

[Dunkerdoodles]

are you fucking kidding me

Been there as both alignments. Either you do what town asks and talk about your hammer and simplify or no one cares. Had to do that with VCA too.

I sympsthize on a human level.

oh i got ninja'd

[Dunkerdoodles]

yeah ok never lynching radja

can do titus i guess

[Bulbazak]

Still haven't done what I need to behind the scenes, but I should probably keep a presence here in the meantime. There's still a chance that I just replace out, but I'll just cross that bridge when I get to it.

Spoiler: CDB Rebuttal

Bulbazak's stance on the LLD/fitz slot Day 1 was pretty weak. He almost doesn't comment on the slot at all early on but one infers him treating her as town due to citing her lines of investigation

So I townread someone for having similar thoughts and scumreads as me? What's so unusual about that? I thought it was pretty good for an early townread.

and asking Smocaine, someone he's publicly calling town as of that same post, to explain a vote on LLD.

First, Smocaine put down a reasonless vote and didn't post anything beyond that. It wouldn't be too bad if he was more active and I could figure out his thought process, but he essentially placed down a vote and disappeared. We were out of RVS at that point. I wanted to know why he was voting for LLD.

Second, Smocaine was never a townread. In fact, I said that anyone on a wagon

with

him should think twice. This is because regardless of his alignment, Smocaine tends to push bad wagons. I just watched him lead mislynch after mislynch as town in The Mod is Mafia. So either scum or potential scum MVP as town, but not someone you wanted to follow. Also, another reason why I wanted reasons. I wanted to hold him accountable.

Meanwhile, many of his mentions of the slot involve him discrediting votes there.

Where? I know I did so with Smocaine, and that I didn't like Math's reasoning, but I can't remember putting a lot of effort in discrediting any votes on the LLD wagon.

Pokes holes at a theory for LLD's scumplay that fits her actions.

I still disagree with that interpretation of her play. I think it's more likely that she either saw Skirt as a good mislynch (if town) or was trying to distance (if scum). The whole idea that LLD was trying to keep Math and Skirt apart relies on an assumption that LLD saw Skirt as a threat, which I don't think is likely. And I know I wasn't the only one who expressed that opinion.

Asks fitz to explain his Bulbazak townread, which is a real lowball of a question at best.

My clash with Skirt and subsequent V/LA was a pretty major event in the game. Fitz goes through the game and doesn't even mention it, but spends time on the LLD AtE. Then he puts me as his highest townread. That didn't seem right to me, as I figured that surely if he was townreading me so high, he'd have at least have said something about the Skirt interactions, or anything about me in general.

Repeatedly pursues this notion of waiting on a line of inquiry until they can both be online at the same time (which allows time, either in the build-up or during the eventual conversation, for whatever this is to be planned out in daytalk).

I don't do scum theater. Even with day talk, it's not going to come off as natural, and there are not many times that it's actually going to come across as genuine. If I was scum with Fitz, I wouldn't have given him a heads up about anything I planned on doing. And he definitely would have been on exactly when I needed him to.

This need to chat dissipates before it comes to fruition. Saves a forced interaction which would presumably be subject to higher scrutiny given that they were trying to set it up ahead of time.

Maybe you should read that post again. The situation changed and I got a strong townread on Math. There was no reason for me to be secretive about asking if Fitz had experience with Math at that point. You'll notice that I actually asked Math that exact question in that post you linked to, and that was because I didn't care about him trying to intercept and answer it ahead of Fitz anymore (In fact, I really didn't care about that line of inquiry anymore at all, but I like to be thorough.).

Undermines the Fitz/Titus choice in his responses to Dino here.

Dino was calling Bins scum for setting up Titus as a Fitz counterwagon, even though Dino had mentioned that he purposely set the two wagons as counterwagons to each other. I did not like that Math was calling Bins scum for a situation that he set up himself. Plus, I was never quite happy with the Fitz/Titus dichotomy that Dino kept pushing. It felt forced.

Continues to object to the informational value of a Fitz lynch.

Asking questions about the informational value is not the same as objecting to it. Math said that the Fitz lynch would provide information on Bins and Elena. I wanted to know what kind of information, because I wasn't seeing it. His answer for Bins was weak, and I don't think he ever explained Elena. This was pivotal, as he was trying to sell Fitz as an informational lynch as opposed to Titus.

Now think about this. The Skirt/Transcend/Titus slot was one of the most talked about and interacted with slot in the game. Everyone in the game took some sort of hard stance on the slot. Compare that to LLD/Fitz, which was pretty weak sauce. So how is that wagon a better informational wagon than Titus? And why am I scum for asking this very basic question and actually expecting Math to follow through in his answer?

Though Bulbazak eventually voted for Fitz, there was never any enthusiasm there, and it absolutely seems like he'd have taken another lynch if one had been offered that he felt safe in choosing.

The only reason I voted there was the "likely to pick scum" reasoning. I really didn't have that strong of a read on the slot, and I'd have much preferred lynching a scumread. I had townreads on Bins, Math, Dunker, and Radja. I was giving Titus some space. Everything else was more nebulous than I'd like, so yeah, I compromised. If there's anyone who actually likes this game state, please point them out to me.

Compare Bulbazak's treatment of the LLD slot to how he describes the slot Today: "Given the AtE, LLD looked like scum who was not in control" and likely to be considered "a lost cause" by scumbuddies early on. That doesn't jive with his 'talk me into it' approach to the slot for much of Day 1.

Wow. My view of the game changed once we actually got flips. Imagine that...

Look at how much Bulbazak focused on Almost50, a read primarily driven by what Bulbazak saw as AtE. (Examples include this, this and this but are also just a fair chunk of Bulbazak's Day 1 proactivity.)

Now let's compare that behaviour to how Bulbazak responded to AtE from LLD. It's much more mealy-mouthed and noncommittal; just a matter of 'I'm doubting my townread now', which would certainly jive with his stated position Today that LLD's scumbuddies would feel that she were very vulnerable.

My scumread of A50 was not just about AtE. In fact, I mentioned it multiple times in my ISO. Here's just a taste:

My scumread of A50 is not policy. I think people keep forgetting, and I know you're going to disagree with me on this, but this isn't just any normal mafia game. This is Team Mafia. In simplest terms, this means that I don't buy that town A50 would even think of throwing for lols when a title is on the line and there are judges taking everything into account for score purposes (read: tiebreaking). I don't care that it's lolA50, pulling this crap as town would be detrimental to his team, and I don't see him doing that.

Actually, THANK YOU KMD! Now that you reminded me, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who calls for my lynch "based on self-voting" I'm going to accuse them of being Scum, and I do have reason to .. precisely from that game, where NO TOWNIE voted Joda "because she self-voted", while 75% of the total Scum count in that game did. THANK YOU AGAIN.

I mean, let's just ignore the fact that the argument is less about you self-voting and more about why you would threaten to throw the game as town in a team based game with a title on the line.

I seriously (and extremely respectfully) want to ask: Why do people sign to games they don't intend to play? And why do it in THE TOURNAMENT? Like, if I had something planned, or expected to be unavailable for 3+ days I would not have played in the tournament myself. I get "I'll be busy on weekends" or "I'm V/:A for the next 48 hours", but I don't get "I'll catch up later" followed by "I'm beat and not feeling like, later" then "I have other plans, so later"...

Let's ignore the elephant-sized problem with this post existing for a moment and focus on A50 emphasizing the importance of this being a tournament. Now look back at my point about A50 not making that AtE game throwing comment as town in a Team Mafia game. Now back to this post.
You're welcome. Vote A50.

2. Yes, town A50 would do that. Yes. I don't know what the problem you have here is. I haven't seen scum A50, no, but I know more than enough about town A50 to say YES JESUS CHRIST HE DOES DUMB SHIT LIKE THAT SOMETIMES.

You're trying to juxtapose a contradiction in A50's mindset between:
A. Threatening to throw the game and self-lynch.
B. Caring so much about the game and the tournament that he shames people for not participating.

I'm not gonna generate a narrative of A50 for you because I do think he should be the one to explain that, but his progression this game

has. made. sense.

Yes! He cares about the game and the tournament! That's my whole freaking point Math! A50 does things that doesn't make sense from a town point of view in that context, and everyone just shrugs and goes "A50 always does weird stuff. Nobody can explain it." giving him carte blanche to be as scummy as he wants. And then you say he's "low hanging fruit" when he's anything but. If he was low hanging fruit, Math, it wouldn't be this hard to lynch him. There's heavy resistance to this wagon, and everyone continues to hand wave everything A50 does, because A50 has spent a mafia career cultivating this meta, enabling him to exploit it to his benefit when it bests suits him, like, I don't know, the biggest mafia competition on site?!

So as shown there, my scumread on A50 was less about him pulling some AtE and more about how his actions were manipulative and did not make sense to me from a town perspective. I felt, and I emphasized this over and over, that he benefited from those actions more as scum and not at all as town. I did not see the town motivation, and that was the crux of my case.

Now we go to LLD's AtE. First, I wasn't actually here for that, as I had gone V/LA after flipping out on Skirt. Second, I did mention how I didn't like the AtE, as it was too close to my own V/LA, and it felt like LLD might just be trying to mimic me. Those were things I didn't know for sure, and given that I had a townread on the slot prior to leaving, it dented my read, but that was about it. Now, if you clearly believe that LLD was mimicking me, as I believe Math said at the time, then doesn't that mean that you think what I did was a town tell and that LLD was just trying to grab town cred for doing the same thing? I know this might have nothing to do with you, but I'm finding it difficult to believe that some of the people now scumreading me still hold the belief that I'm scum and that LLD was also scum mimicking me.

By his own words, we know that scum!Bulbazak would feel obliged to suspect LLD after that behaviour - but of course it's never as easy as just throwing a player like LLD to the wolves, especially when you've already been townreading her early on. She's an advantage, even under suspicion, that scum wouldn't want to freely give up. So you end up with this fence-sitting and subtle shooting down of the wagon without ever being seen as too much against it.

So apparently you think I'm inept at scum. I seriously have a quote from a scum game in my signature, and you are making asssumptions like I am some sort of rank amateur. When I say what the optimal scum move is, that means I'm considering what I would do if I was playing scum in this situation. And if I was scum with LLD, I would have realized as soon as the meta scumreads hit that the slot was a goner. Maybe I try to keep her around for a game day or two, but once she vanishes, and once a replacement hit, especially one as bad as Fitz, I would have positioned myself onto the wagon as soon as possible.

Btw, you know who does that? Elena. She starts the game with a scumread of LLD. Then she townreads LLD, something that I gave Elena a townread for at the beginning of the game, but now I look back and wonder if that was a scum tell given the LLD flip. She later goes back to scumreading the slot, but only weakly. Meanwhile, she pushes elsewhere, particularly Bins. And when she gets on LLD, she only does so once it's obvious that's where the momentum is going. Look back at her vote again. That's the place I would be as scum on that wagon, and that's when I would have jumped on. Elena never hard pushed LLD/Fitz. You did (when you were here). A50 did. Heck, even Math did at the end. Elena did not. She said the slot was scum occasionally, but she was more focused on trying to lynch off of the wagon or say why those who were scumreading her for the same reasons LLD was (*cough* meta *cough*) were wrong and didn't know what they were talking about. And then after having not really hard pushed the slot, she then enters this day phase and tries to get credit for the lynch.

Seriously, CDB. Scum do not waffle on LLD/Fitz when the chips are down. They weak push and then get on at the opportune moment to gain credit.

It also seems like mastina should be well aware of the likelihood that LLD would pick scum, and again that is addressed in the most fence-sitting way possible here.

Go back and read that post again. Notice where I say that Mastina was talking to another team member about their game? Yeah...that was Eddie. The DEFCON note came out while Llamarble was still alive, and there was some paranoia there. So yeah, Mastina did not mention LLD, because frankly, she wasn't preoccupied with what LLD would or would not do. I just looked over those notes, saw that there was some general stuff that was good, and gave them. And I even think I said that I had some general stuff from Mastina that wasn't even for this game, and Math said he still wanted to hear them. So I was very forthcoming about those thoughts not being for this game specifically and just being general stuff meant for Eddie.

@Bulbazak:

Please explain exactly what lines of inquiry you were planning to pursue with fitz "in real-time", regardless of how valid they may be now.

I noticed how you were very much against the LLD lynch prior to Fitz's replace in. But as soon as he entered, you voted. That seemed strange to me, and I was wondering if there was some history. I was not feeling great about your slot anymore at that point, so I wanted to ask Fitz if he had any experience with you, specifically, if he had experience as town with scum you. And if he did, I wanted to know whether he had caught you as scum in previous games. In general, I wanted to know whether scum you would freak at the appearance of town Fitz in a game and vote him immediately in an attempt to use the general unease on the slot to lynch a player who could prove to be a problem for you. I wanted to talk to Fitz in real time so that you had no chance to try to step in and derail any inquiries I had. In essence, I didn't want you to see this line of questioning coming.

But then I got a strong townread on you from your insistence on wanting Creature to replace in the game. And I thought that there was no way that you as scum would want to put Creature, who, as you said, is easy to read, in this game. If he was town, scum you would lose a place to hide, and if he was scum with you, you'd essentially lose a partner immediately and be put at a disadvantage. So given that, I felt you were pretty strongly town, and therefore, there was no reason to ask Fitz those questions anymore.

like, it feels manipulative and kinda defendy of bulba

Math is bending over backwards to avoid voting someone he ostensibly scumreads, it's freaking weird and the way he seized on the CDB scumcase on Bulba is almost as weird.

Yeah, I noticed that too. But I still don't think Math is scum, due to the above, even though I am getting Night and Day flashbacks.

This isn't a 3 scum game.

I'm pretty sure all these games are.

If you have something to say, say it. Don't go throwing subtle shade at me. I admit I'm not playing a great game right now, which is why I'm trying to get my feet back under me.

It would be against the rules to explain why I felt certain there was a precisely 50% chance you're scum.

I thought it was something like 2/13?

On page 101

[Mathdino]

Alright, that all checks out. I'm glad this conversation happened.

I believe Bulbazak on not being into scum theatre (until this is proven otherwise), I agree that it doesn't make sense LLD would mimic Bulba's V/LA if Bulba was scum, and the line of questioning he planned with fitz ESPECIALLY indicates they're not scum together. If anyone (CDB) has examples of Bulbazak being THAT good at scum (or examples of Bulba waffling all over his buddies), I'm open to it, but I'm comfortable on that slot now. I think.

I still HEAVILY believe Bulbazak should not live to LyLo.

There's still something making me SUPER fucking paranoid there. [redacted]
@Bulbazak: I meant that this is now a 2 scum game, and we can't analyse wagons on the premise that there's this scumteam that swoops in and changes the day and fires up wagons. It's possible there was just one active scum.
I can't talk about why I felt so certain there was a 50/50 shot at you being scum. That no longer applies, and honestly, if I used the same logic I did then, I'd be sitting at a 90% chance you're scum. But that's a conversation for another day.
UNVOTE:
gonna go take a look at my lynch order and get my bearings