Mini 1991: Taking Justice Into Our Own Hands (Town Win)

[Luca Blight]

I'm starting to get scummy vibes from Fitz - he is straying very far from how he played in the other game we were in as Town. He was a lot more standoffish in that, certainly never pushing as hard as he is here.

Just as I was skeptical over Lexa's sureness that Mumble was lying, I'm also not buying Fitz' conviction that Cedrick and Lexa are a scumteam - it feels like he's too far down the tunnel to back out so he's going all guns blazing.

[havingfitz]

I’m not arguing with you anymore. I town read Lexa so I trust her over mumbles but that doesn’t mean mumbles isn’t telling the truth and I’m wrong on Lexa. I can’t make an unbiased decision and neither can you (if you are town)

Smart play is let mafia decide what to do. If both are alive tomorrow we will deal with that also.

Nobody especially you is going to convince me it’s a good idea to lynch a Pr claim. I think mumbles is probably lying and I won’t even agree to that lynch.

So you go do you. I’ll do me and we’ll see what is what day 2 and beyond.

So claims don't factor into your decisions because you can't trust them.

Why did you unvote Mimble?
Why am I scum for using the same logic you espouse?

[havingfitz]

He was a lot more standoffish in that, certainly never pushing as hard as he is here.

My push is tied to my confidence. Usually happens later in games. Confidence came early this game.

[Cedrick]

Literally nothing fitz can say is going to change my mind. He can try and shade me all he wants. I’m not going to be bullied into voting in a manner that is detrimental to town winning.

He is better off trying to convince people to lynch me cause I’ll fight a Lexa or a mulch lynch regardless if I believe either of them.

[Papa Zito]

fitz you're spending a lot of energy on a slot that you've called scum a couple times now but your vote hasn't moved and that gives me what the experts call "the heebie jeebies"

[Cedrick]

Why did you unvote Mimble?
Why am I scum for using the same logic you espouse?

Cause I’m not voting a claimed PR day 1 even if I don’t believe him.
Cause you are advocating lynching a claimed or day 1. (Other reasons previously mentioned also but that’s the thing that confirmed it for me.)

[Cedrick]

fitz you're spending a lot of energy on a slot that you've called scum a couple times now but your vote hasn't moved and that gives me what the experts call "the heebie jeebies"

I already called it. He even said it himself. He rather lynch a Pr claim over me.

[Papa Zito]

Well honestly Cedrick I'm not nearly as religious about this idea of not lynching claimed PRs day 1 as you are. MS is littered with examples of games where scum claimed a PR day 1 and got lynched anyway. I don't find that particular argument compelling at all.

[havingfitz]

Why did you unvote Mimble?
Why am I scum for using the same logic you espouse?

Cause I’m not voting a claimed PR day 1 even if I don’t believe him.
Cause you are advocating lynching a claimed or day 1. (Other reasons previously mentioned also but that’s the thing that confirmed it for me.)

You left this out of my quote:
"So claims don't factor into your decisions because you can't trust them."

[havingfitz]

fitz you're spending a lot of energy on a slot that you've called scum a couple times now but your vote hasn't moved and that gives me what the experts call "the heebie jeebies"

I already called it. He even said it himself. He rather lynch a Pr claim over me.

If the Lexa wagon dissolves I'd vote you without a concern.

[havingfitz]

fitz you're spending a lot of energy on a slot that you've called scum a couple times now but your vote hasn't moved and that gives me what the experts call "the heebie jeebies"

I'm confident Lexa isscum.
A bad watcher claim isn't going to change my opinion.
I've ststed I would vote Cedrick if that wagon had a chance. Still prefer Lexa.

[Cedrick]

Well honestly Cedrick I'm not nearly as religious about this idea of not lynching claimed PRs day 1 as you are. MS is littered with examples of games where scum claimed a PR day 1 and got lynched anyway. I don't find that particular argument compelling at all.

Yes I have seen games like that myself. I’d still rather err on the side of caution since we have that luxury and because it’s the smart play.

I’m not a big risk taker and since we don’t know the setup we don’t know if it’s a true 1v1 scenario or not.

It’s possible one is scum. It’s possible both are town. Hell its even possible both are scum. I remember somebody talking about a game where scum cc’d his partner before.

Why take a risk day 1? Let’s lay up and go for par on this hole. Go for the birdie or eagle on the next hole. (Sorry just watched tincup)

[havingfitz]

Hey Cedrick..claims don't factor into your decisions.

If I'm scum for wanting Lexa still lynched what's that do to your reads on Eddie, Mumble and Lexa?

[Cedrick]

Move along little boy. I’m not arguing or talking with you anymore. If you are town you are not playing objectively, intelligently, and are looking for loop holes and technicalities. Plus your actions of wanting to lynch a Pr claim over me when it’s obvious you scum read me also makes me pretty confident you are scum.

Continuing the argument with you is counterproductive as I’m not changing my view and I seriously doubt you’ll change yours.

I have to have to ignore a player in the game but if it comes to that I will. Let’s just agree to disagree and move on.

I suggest others vote you also because it’s clear to me you are not playing with a townie mindset given you admitted you’d rather lynch a Pr claim over me.

[Eddie Cane]

I think it's fair to say Mumble and Lexa aren't both scum - otherwise that would be some fine play acting.

Mumble's claim certainly felt more believable than Lexa's; His confident tone when replying to Lexa's claim, and his assuredness he wouldn't be counter-claimed. Also the way he gave the reads after didn't feel like scum merely playing for time before being lynched, although why he's waited until now to start openly sorting players I don't know.

Lexa's immediately felt like BS with apparent bravado of her claim, which doesn't even directly affect Mumble's claim. Her reasoning in 536 that she believes Mumble's role should also have a modifier seems a rash assumption on her part, yet strangely genuine. I'm in agreement with Cedrick that both are best left alone for the time being.

VOTE: Guy_Named_Riggs

He's done very little, to the point it feels like he's just trying to coast through the day unnoticed. I don't like the appeasement of 30, nor do I like the vagueness of his Mumble vote or his shading of certain players in 257. In 328 He says he's '

going through things now

', yet all he subsequently manages is a passive question at Zito as to why he suspects Cedrick over others. Cedrick was also one of the ones Riggs shaded earlier, so presumably he should have been able to relate somewhat to Zito's scumread on Cedrick.

I almost sheeped this to the point I actually had the vote tags typed in.

my reads was the EXACT same as yours, not "similar". I don't know why it took you 10 lines to reply to that with a falsehood, but my reads list is virtually identical to yours. that's not strange to you?

Are they exact? I haven't compared. I know they are close.

So fypov it's either...
1) a coincidence or
2) I did it (lol) on purpose (lol)

The answer is 1 btw.
Strange? A little but not given the lineup imo. Others might also have similar/exact reads with you or someone else. I'm sure it happens.

I don't believe it was a calculated decision to copy my reads. Look, I'll compare it for you one more time:

NSG, rb, Zito, Mumble are town leans.
Eddie, Alexcellent, Awoo are weaker townleans
Luca and Havo are nulls
Cedrick and GNR are suspect
Lexa is suspect enough to vote.

yours is above, mine is below. i took out you for the purposes of comparing.

{rb, zitmaster9000, NSG, Mumble}
{Luca, Havo, Alex, Awoo}
{Cedrick}
{GNR}
{Lexa}

Changing the format of yours to be uniform with mine,

{rb, zito, nsg, mumble}
{alex, awoo}
{havo, luca}
{cedrick, gnr}
{lexa}

They. are. the. same. Same 4 townreads, same 4 null/townlean, same 2 scum leans, same scumread. As Zito said, yes, there are some townie points to be earned there for "thought cohesion", but at the same time I think it's a huge coincidence they'd be the exact same. I am sorry for fixating on this, but I'm trying to wrap my head around it, because my brain is arguing whether it is scum or town. If you're scum with Lexa, a good way of buddying could be to sheep my reads list, but that's a problem to deal with if Lexa reds so we can ignore it for now. If you are scum and not with Lexa, still functions a bit as buddying but tbh that's insignificant. I find it much more likely scum!you didn't consciously copy my reads, but knew I'd be a strong presence up until I'm night killed and ended up trying to read the game in a light like mine and/or something of the like. Then, of course, if you are town you just happened to have the same reads as me which means you're perceiving the game in the same light.

If that is true, what are your current thoughts as of this post wrt Lexa? How confident you are in your push, how confident you are in their flip.

Please be completely honest and don't project.

It’s completely reasonable to think that a doctor and watcher can’t be in the game together.

It is? Help me out here. Use small words, I'm an idiot.

Yes it is.

it is completely reasonable to think that a doctor and watcher can’t be in the game together.

Is that small enough?

But seriously, ??? What is "completely reasonable" about that to think. They're both roles that punish killing the obvious kill... they definitely can and have been in the same game together and in a game with no cop I find it likely we have good protection (a Doc as opposed to a BG) and a Watcher is a reasonably likely investigative and a risky fake claim if you're scum because the investigative options are already limited. Actually, I think I just convinced myself to unvote Lexa for now, but regardless there's no compatibility issue and this isn't a 1v1? I think saying they can't be in a game together argues that Lexa "cc'd" validly if anything... lol. Mumble is still town for this regardless seeing as he's uncc'd protective and was already townie as fuck to begin with, Lexa may or may not be town and it isn't because of some mutual exclusivity bullshit.

I’m not arguing with you anymore. I town read Lexa so I trust her over mumbles but that doesn’t mean mumbles isn’t telling the truth and I’m wrong on Lexa. I can’t make an unbiased decision and neither can you (if you are town)

Smart play is let mafia decide what to do. If both are alive tomorrow we will deal with that also.

Nobody especially you is going to convince me it’s a good idea to lynch a Pr claim. I think mumbles is probably lying and I won’t even agree to that lynch.

So you go do you. I’ll do me and we’ll see what is what day 2 and beyond.

The mindset of not lynching a PR claim is /fine/, there was a player named TwoFace who as a hard rule wouldn't lynch a PR claim D1 no matter how sketch. However, the rest of this doesn't really follow, because you're setting Mumble and Lexa up to be a TvS when again, that doesn't exist here for any reason I can think of? It's a T vs a ?, and if it ends up being S that isn't because they are a Watcher and he is a Doctor. I'm repeating myself because I want you to explain your wrong thought process.

fitz you're spending a lot of energy on a slot that you've called scum a couple times now but your vote hasn't moved and that gives me what the experts call "the heebie jeebies"

Makes sense if he's still certain Lexa is scum, and Cedrick was on his reads list at the second to bottom.

Well honestly Cedrick I'm not nearly as religious about this idea of not lynching claimed PRs day 1 as you are. MS is littered with examples of games where scum claimed a PR day 1 and got lynched anyway. I don't find that particular argument compelling at all.

this.

fitz you're spending a lot of energy on a slot that you've called scum a couple times now but your vote hasn't moved and that gives me what the experts call "the heebie jeebies"

I already called it. He even said it himself. He rather lynch a Pr claim over me.

If the Lexa wagon dissolves I'd vote you without a concern.

Other than convincing myself above, the wagon also is dying with unvotes and it appears others aren't going to join. So, this is basically where I was it, post mortem.

[Cedrick]

But seriously, ??? What is "completely reasonable"

Because I found myself questioning both are town. If I have that thought then it’s reasonable others would also. Every possible outcome is completely reasonable. Even thinking they are scum together is a reasonable option. We simply don’t have enough to know for sure

[Papa Zito]

skldfj;alskdjf ;asldkjf sdlakfj

[Eddie Cane]

I want to be very clear about Lexa though: he is not a beginner. I've said this, but I'm going to repeat it: he has at least 15 games played and is a very smart person.

Pros to lynching Lexa:
- Scum on meta - big one
- Sorts a lot of slots in the game pretty well; tons of useful interactions. in layman's terms, info lynch
- Shuts down that type of claim on a policy level which is an awesome thing
- Said this already, but preeetty solid scum on meta
- The game gets a lot harder for me if I operate under town!Lexa, and when that happens with town!x it's usually because X=scum

Cons:
- If town, we lynch our Watcher
- As I just said above, that's a very risky fake claim to make
- There isn't much scum motivation for "CCing" like that; it clearly doesn't do anything to get a Mumble lynch, and as a smart player Lexa would know that. additionally, his team would likely tell him that's a bad idea unless his team is garbage. all it does is attract attn.
- I lose my best friend itg
- I've never seen Lexa claim like that as scum, but also not as town, and I haven't meta dived to see if I missed a game where it happened


VOTE: GNR

That said, Lexa, if you don't have that powertown Texas going on soon, I'm lynching you. If your wagon comes back, I'm on it because I still think you're scum. "optimal" play is probably to leave you alone, but

[Eddie Cane]

But seriously, ??? What is "completely reasonable"

Because I found myself questioning both are town. If I have that thought then it’s reasonable others would also. Every possible outcome is completely reasonable. Even thinking they are scum together is a reasonable option. We simply don’t have enough to know for sure

. - .

you aren't hearing me

on a CLAIM LEVEL, you said it's reasonable to think the roles don't work together. why is that?

[havingfitz]

If that is true, what are your current thoughts as of this post wrt Lexa? How confident you are in your push, how confident you are in their flip.

I am extremely confident Lexa is scum.

I'm not big on D1 histrionics but if you look at games where I strongly believe someone is scum...my play is similar. I.e. aggressive and annoying as fcuk.

Self meta alert!!! Not my scumplay style at all.

Cedrick meanwhile in his unabashed defense of Lexa has resorted personal attacks and dismissiveness. Si he can be Lexa's partner.

[Eddie Cane]

If that is true, what are your current thoughts as of this post wrt Lexa? How confident you are in your push, how confident you are in their flip.

I am extremely confident Lexa is scum.

I'm not big on D1 histrionics but if you look at games where I strongly believe someone is scum...my play is similar. I.e. aggressive and annoying as fcuk.

Self meta alert!!! Not my scumplay style at all.

Cedrick meanwhile in his unabashed defense of Lexa has resorted personal attacks and dismissiveness. Si he can be Lexa's partner.

I think this is town you, though not strongly. I should do another reads list after this, a fair bit has changed. Regardless of if you're right or not, I strictly don't remember scum!you playing like this and I believe your convictions.

[Cedrick]

I'm repeating myself because I want you to explain your wrong thought process.

Just cause you don’t agree with me doesn’t make my thought process wrong.

If I had to choose to lynch one I’d trust my own reads and lynch mumbles but I realize I’m not going to be right all the time. I could be wrong here. Do I want to risk losing a doctor? No

I could also be wrong in Lexa. Same thing though. Do I want to risk losing a watcher? No

Why take unnecessary risks if we don’t have to?

Nobody has a rock solid case for why Lexa or mumbles is scum. Anyone super confident they are right is bullshit.

I’m not Lynching either today. I strongly advise others follow suit. Anyone pushing to lynch either claim, is going to be scum read by me.

[Eddie Cane]

{Mumble}
{NSG}
{Zitosaurus Rex}
{Awoo, Havo, Luca }
{rb, Alex, Fitz}
{GNR, Cedrick}
{Lexa}

Somewhere like here rn

[Eddie Cane]

Interesting. I have a lot of townreads now.

I'm repeating myself because I want you to explain your wrong thought process.

Just cause you don’t agree with me doesn’t make my thought process wrong.

If I had to choose to lynch one I’d trust my own reads and lynch mumbles but I realize I’m not going to be right all the time. I could be wrong here. Do I want to risk losing a doctor? No

I could also be wrong in Lexa. Same thing though. Do I want to risk losing a watcher? No

Why take unnecessary risks if we don’t have to?

Nobody has a rock solid case for why Lexa or mumbles is scum. Anyone super confident they are right is bullshit.

I’m not Lynching either today. I strongly advise others follow suit. Anyone pushing to lynch either claim, is going to be scum read by me.

:/

[Eddie Cane]

{Mumble}
{NSG}
{Zitosaurus Rex}
{Awoo, Havo, Luca }
{rb, Alex, Fitz}
{GNR, Cedrick}
{Lexa}

Somewhere like here rn

It's funny because GNR has barely posted, Lexa could be town from role, and I townreadn the group above that. And by funny, I mean annoying. If the scum team isn't Ced/GNR/Lexa (lol) this is gonna be a long game.