Mini 1990: Terror in the City (Game Over)

[Hopkirk]

To summarise why I don’t like Kop: his posting consistently feels convenient rather than consistent, and lacks forward momentum/impact.

He reads Brass as scum in response to Brass’ place on TFL’s wagon then doesn’t mention Brass again. This seems like defending a partner, or defending what Kop thinks is easily influenced town- given he described TFL as lynchbaity. He doesn’t seem to consider whether town-Brass makes the TFL vote by mistake, since Kop only considers scum-Brass in 119 after I question him on it. Despite this, the Brass read doesn’t come up again.

His TNE vote is a sheep vote (as he said, he followed my vote). Doesn’t move things on. He asks Almost50 a few questions, but doesn’t follow up on these. Based on his later posts not mentioning Almost50 again, he’s either moved to a townread (why?), or just doesn’t care enough to bother following up. The one question he asks is barely a question anyway, just ‘do you scumread Hopkirk too’, not really sure what he wanted to get out of it.

Dislikes the Dunn/Kokichi interactions. Doesn’t explain beyond an impression of distancing. Votes Kokichi, doesn’t mention Dunn otherwise. Doesn’t trigger examination of Kokichi or Dunn. Like a lot of Kop’s positions, it just seems to form in the moment. Don’t see where it comes from or go.

Response to Nero is a defence of Fuzzy. Only major engagement post-wall is with Nero. It sounds like he’s scumreading Nero while not pushing him. Nero isn’t widely scumread here. This is a missed opportunity to move things along/add impact.

His Yurkin vote is bad is naked. It’s also consistent with what I’m talking about. Convenience- since he hasn’t scumread Yurkin before, and lacking impact as he’s voting Yurkin instead of developing anything else. He disliked Assemble’s Yurkin vote as well. Kind of inconsistent given he joins him.
Perhaps more significantly, his Yurkin vote is inconsistent with what he’s argued before. In 119 and 131, Kop argues against the TFL wagon because TFL is ‘lynchbait’. Despite this, he’s willing to vote Yurkin- the definition of lynchbait here. 100 posts on site, and inactive. It’s not a consistent approach.

[Kokichi Oma]

Kop was just me settling, I said that before.

[havingfitz]

Did you miss the part where you were my first SR

So the overly defensive accusation?

What's your current read on Kop?

Because aside from putting Kop at 3 votes you haven't said squat about him.

@A50...why doesn't Koki's hop on kop and then hop off at L-2 twist your knickers? Isn't that what you're accusing me of?

[havingfitz]

Kop was just me settling, I said that before.

So is your read on me still based on overly defensive?

[havingfitz]

What's your current read on Kop?

@koki

[Kokichi Oma]

Yes and your Yurkin answer to my question.

[havingfitz]

Yes and your Yurkin answer to my question.

You're a dullard. The yurkin reply was a joke due to his miniscule iso.

[Hopkirk]

Kokichi’s vote change there is consistent with what she’s said in regards to Kop/Fitz so far. My only worry there is a thought I had before- Kop/Kokichi potentially making weak votes on each other while Yurkin was the dominant wagon and hoping it led to the lynch while making them look good.

@Kokichi: Could you go through your Fitz read a bit more?

@Almost50: My problem with your explination in 497 is that there wasn’t a serious counterwagon to Yurkin until I switched to Kop. If Yurkin/Kop/x were scum then they were intending to hard bus there. Fitz doesn’t really read as hard bussing, and it’s not advantageous to him either. It’d be too easy for the Yurkin wagon to lead to a lynch that he wouldn’t want.

@Hop: Kop is Town. If he was Scum Yurkin's lynch

would

have gone through. The way it got dismantled points to scum trying to save their buddy and replacing him with a Kop lynch as a scapegoat.

Why? My current perspective can be explained by scum not being on the wagon early- and being reluctant to jump on the easiest mislynch.
Why does the Yurkin lynch go through with Kop scum?
The way I see it, Kop and two potential partners voted Yurkin when Kop was put under threat/just after I voted him. It looks like scum might have been trying to push the Yurkin lynch to defend Kop.
Although this doesn't rely on both Mom/Dunn being Kop's partners. I could see town-Mom doing that too. Fuzzy, another possible partner, hasn't been on line recently.

The key points from this that I don't think you've addressed are these:

Fitz didn't do anything to try and start a counterwagon.
The Yurkin wagon gained more momentum after Kop became a serious counterwagon. That seems unlikely if no scum are pushing the Kop wagon as a counterwagon, and Fitz didn't show signs of desire to leave until my point about Yurkin being more likely to get replaced.

[Hopkirk]

Koki's hop on kop and then hop

I much prefer the phrasing Kok’s hop off his Kop hop after Hop’s Kop hop.

[Almost50]

@Hop:

Here's a TOWN game I recently played with Kop. ISO him and see if his play is much different here.

[Almost50]

Fitz was the SK in hat game, btw. (check my opening post in here and you'd get some of what I said regarding some players, like fitz is SK and Koki is always the opposite of how I peg him.. etc)

[Almost50]

@A50...why doesn't Koki's hop on kop and then hop off at L-2 twist your knickers? Isn't that what you're accusing me of?

Koki IS still in my lynchpool, just not an immediate target.

[Kokichi Oma]

Koki's hop on kop and then hop

I much prefer the phrasing Kok’s hop off his Kop hop after Hop’s Kop hop.

Hop is town!

[havingfitz]

@A42...

If all you have on Kop being town is that he was a counter wagon to yurkin that's sh*t reasoning.

If anything...the fact that Kop couldn't get any further than at L-2 (for 10 MINUTES!!!) and yurkin has been at L-1 for most of the day (and pushed primarily by me...see ealier comment wrt other wagon options) shows yurkin...not Kop is more likely to be scum.

And taking off your brown stained blinders...forget the counterwagon bs you are pushing...how does Kop look to you strictly on the merit of his posts?

[Almost50]

@Hop: Suffice it to say I would be pissed at my own SCUM BUDDY the most of I was scum with yurkin. His play is not only hurting the team in the sense he is drawing much attention to himself by not being in the game at all, but it's stopping me from hard pushing other lurkers (whom I'd know are town). I'd push him first and if he is lynched so be it. I'd earn some town cred and will be free to push on the other lurkers without being suspected for it.

However, when/if a chance introduces itself for me to switch to someone else I'd gladly take it. It'd be even better to lynch a townie forst then switch back to bussing my scum p, then push the person(s) who pushed against my scum p lynch on D1 resulting in a mislynch. That is (hypothetically assuming I'm scum with yurkin):

I'd lynch Kop and he will flip Town. Then I would lynch yurkin and he will flip scum. Then I would lynch you because you defended yurkin and pushed Kop instead. then I'd shade A50 who knew yurkin was scum and Kop was town. That's FOUR lynches I'd be working on and planning to achieve. Coupled with 4 NKs and we're down to 3T vs 2S on D5 << LyLo. And that's assuming no other deaths (no reason for me to assume a Vig exists or even a PGO).

[Hopkirk]

@Almost50: In regard to your thoughts on Yurkin posting every 48hish hours to avoid prods, I had a similar experience in my last game. The player went 8 days once without posting, and around 80 hours three other times. I was 100% sure he was scum. He was. Nobody else wanted to lynch him and we lost. He feels different from Yurkin. One of my suspicions there was how hard the player was going to avoid subbing out, and how he was posting small amounts of content while claiming to catch up. That looked intentional. Yurkin just looks like a newbie who site flaked. Especially now it's been 4 days since his last post.

For your theory of tactical lurking to be true, he should have posted about 48h ago. The lack of post 48h ago damages the hypothesis that he was tactically prod dodging- or he'd have done it again or done something else instead of flaing. The 48h/lurking thing should become NAI after that/now that it looks like he siteflaked.

[Almost50]

And taking off your brown stained blinders...forget the counterwagon bs you are pushing...how does Kop look to you strictly on the merit of his posts?

YOU should know better, Mr Serial Killer in that game I linked. You KNOW Kop is hard to town!case even hen he IS a Town PR, and -assuming you never played with him is any other games- that one should be reason enough for you to -at least- think twice before you try to lynch him on D1.

Granted, Kop could still be scum and I could be 100% wrong on all my reads, but there's no evidence to support I'm wrong either, so why should I just submit to your will?

[Almost50]

@Hop: I'll accept he flaked when he does actually get replaced. Meanwhile, I'm still opposed to the Kop lynch until you show me what you see different here than his play in the game I linked of him with both myself and fitz.

[Almost50]

Also, I'm not lynching a fellow Liverpool FC fan

[Dunnstral]

Dunn doesn't explain his Yurkin vote. He'd previously attacked Assmble, but doesn't seem to consider voting Assemble.

These three are people I'm suspicious of, and they're all voting Yurkin- and voting him when their isos suggest they should be voting Assemble instead.

Uh, this didn't happen

Like I never gave an opinion on assembley either way, you latched onto something incredibly minor to use to suggest I should be voting him

[Hopkirk]

@Almost 50: The plan you’re suggesting for Fitz doesn’t work on four levels.
- It requires him to have planned unpredictable events in advance
- It falls apart if there isn’t a counterwagon
- It assumes no pr influence anywhere
- It assumes a town willing to go along with a string of lynches that are based purely on basic and trivially fakable association rather than play

That string of lynches wouldn’t be achievable even if this was a mountainous setup where Fitz could be sure that You, Me, and Kop weren’t Prs, and could be sure no prs would do anything worthwhile at night. The Kop one initially relies on somebody actually brining up an alternative to Yurkin- which wasn’t happening. The me/you lynches there are reliant on me specifically brining up Kop and you specifically reading the game how you do- then town just buying ‘mafia would never bus an afk partner’ which isn’t happening.

[Hopkirk]

Dunn doesn't explain his Yurkin vote. He'd previously attacked Assmble, but doesn't seem to consider voting Assemble.

These three are people I'm suspicious of, and they're all voting Yurkin- and voting him when their isos suggest they should be voting Assemble instead.

Uh, this didn't happen

Like I never gave an opinion on assembley either way, you latched onto something incredibly minor to use to suggest I should be voting him

To be fair, the comment I was basing this on could have been a joke about Assemble's meta of not contributing.
My thoughts were probably coloured by your choice to joke in order to avoid contribution during your last series of posts (especially 422), so I was probably looking for things and reading it that way.

I think it'd read better if I'd said 'could be voting Assemble instead' as opposed to 'should be'.

[Dunnstral]

Also, he didn't look into it either

[Nero Cain]

koki, get back on Kop

[Hopkirk]

@Hop: I'll accept he flaked when he does actually get replaced. Meanwhile, I'm still opposed to the Kop lynch until you show me what you see different here than his play in the game I linked of him with both myself and fitz.

Something that caught my attention right away

-he expresses suspicion of Math in 90 for explained reasons and starts a wagon
-he pays attention to responses and makes his read on Math relatively clear (eg 123)
-he makes it obvious later that he townreads Dino

Immediate differences to this game
-He's starting a new wagon and moving the game forward rather than letting it stagnate
-His play involves a lot more interaction and explination
-His reads seem to be forming and evolving over time then appearing and vanishing when it fits

322 and 679 on Impede seem similar.


Obviously there's going to be issues given I wasn't in the game. It's hard to read momentum if it's not in real time, and (lack of) momentum in this game is really significant in influencing how it's going. Plus I can't read the whole game. Still, you're asking me to look at it, so I guess you've accounted for that and will continue to do so in response to these initial thoughts. I might take another look later.