Mini 1993 - Earthbound Mafia: Giygas' Curse - GAME OVER

[Beefster]

VOTE: Paradox

We can revisit Mathdino later.

[Mathdino]

i'm legit frustrated that my frustration apparently universally looks fake online

like i got frustrated at alisae in a scumgame of mine and that wasn't faked

because i don't ever fake frustration as scum

i get frustrated as either alignment when i think someone's being stupid

if it looks like i'm trying to defend myself against IB, i'm not

just trying to get that conversation to end already

[Carrot and Stick]

It seems like you're assuming that I, as scum, would somehow know that you made an error there and specifically tried to discredit your case based around that error... when you were just gonna tell me "NOPE FUCK YOUR DISCREDIT" the moment you caught up. How does that help me?

It helps you by human psychology. This is a really shitty way of wording it, but basically you stating it even if I later say you were wrong plants the idea in the head of other players that my position I am pushing you from comes from a different base than where it really does. Me correcting it does nothing to remove the original plant; the seeds once rooted are never uprooted.

acryon is a good player (definitely better than you're describing but idk if you've played with him)

Actually it is specifically BECAUSE acryon is a good player that I consider his play this game to be indicative of scum. I honestly don't remember if I have or not but he, similar to you, is someone I definitely have more than just passing familiarity with if nothing else even if my level of familiarity is sadly not on the more 'intimate' level.

So you're gonna have to explain what you mean by "that calculator thing".

Sure thing!

You have to instead not think "does this look town?" and instead look for "is this actually town?". Mathdino, undeniably, 'looks' town. By which, I mean, he 'sounds' like he is helping the town. But the question to look for is whether what he is saying is actually driven by town. This is the same metric I am rating Momrangal by, and both of them have not only failed it, but have passed (or failed depending on your perspective) the inverse test.

So what you look for from scum is basically evidence of the long game. Evidence of taking root to create long-term interactions which keep the slot kicking.

Things which are driven by scum.

I individually scumread all three and I see associatives from all three which indicate they're the scumteam, but I'm not a scumhunting goddess so I know I can and will be wrong. So sure. Mathdino could in fact be town.

But I really don't think so.

Mathdino has set roots. He has set a plan down.

I'm not sure if you ask me to do so that I'd be able to walk you through his process of having laid those roots. Especially since I don't know for sure what his scumteam is. (I don't think you're on it for what it's worth. In fact this post alone makes me pretty damn sure you're town.)

But what he has done is to establish a presence and set up a long-term goal.

That can come from a town-him, yes

.

(AS PER MATHDINO, IT CANNOT.)

That if he were town, his roots, his presence, would be less precise.

He's a calculator as either alignment

(AS PER MATHDINO, HE IS NOT AS TOWN A CALCULATOR)

, sure enough, but as town he is still the UNINFORMED, and yet

in this game his actions speak of not being uninformed; there's no hint of disarray, of chaos, of divergence, of disorder, and those are signs that even the most precision-based town players would have on D1

.

Who he is going after is something that is an artificial process. Instead of feeling like his goal is to find scum, when reading his posts I feel like his goal is to lynch others while not being lynched

.

I see the plan in his posts, and I see a scumteam led by him written all over Momrangal and acryon's posts as well

. Their interactions have been forced for the sake of interactions, and altogether they have kept each other at the distance where they can do whatever they need--they're distant enough where they can choose to bus, but close enough where they can choose to scumbloc, depending on the need, and this is an interaction that feels entirely calculated.

[Carrot and Stick]

I mean he was being defensive which was the point I was trying to make and really I didn't see a reason for him to feel as such as town.

Sorry but when reading his posts I do not read them as defensive. Not even remotely.

He straight up said I was either scum or playing against towns win on and didn't know how to play well with town, even though I have showed the desire to sort out at least one other person as well as work with them

Yes indeed. And what, pray tell, can that be described as?

BuJaber's methodology is such that he is not one making friends; everything he does is antagonizing people. That's easy for less-experienced/skilled players to misinterpret as scum, but it's quite the opposite.

It's also one of the reasons why I think you're scum, because you're of a sufficient skill level where you should have been able to recognize this and see the very same things I'm indicating here.

I don't see a reason to shade a person like that as town

Shade, maybe not. Scumread, though? Sure, comes from town all the time. And that's more how I read his posts.

[Mathdino]

Cool story.

I disagree with your take on Bujaber in 354. Like, I don't necessarily disagree with your ultimate read (I'm still working on that), but I disagree that he can be read on the basis that he's antagonising people, given that he's specifically NOT antagonised me and a few other players with presence.

[Carrot and Stick]

Edit: Okay so that's 3 players who don't like to explain their IB townread, gotcha.

I wasn't asked!

My interpretation of her points are:
- The IB push was bad (okay but I wagon players specifically to see what people think)
- I'm playing to my scum meta (her town meta on me is 4 years old)
- Mathdino is trying to get easy mislynches (I can promise you, and you can choose to believe me or not, that if IB was instantly run up to L-1, I'd have jumped off and evaluated)
- I assume she thinks I hate policy lynches because I used to hate them 4 years ago, so she's associating policy lynches with scum-me? Idk what that one's about.
- Mathdino is discrediting the case against him (no shit, because it's incorrect and I prefer to know why)

It's funny you say these are my points when literally the only one which actually is one that you listed is in fact the meta one.

I mean.
The IB push was indeed bad, but you're not scum because of it.
I do think you're going for relatively-speaking low hanging fruit, but that's not why you're scum especially not in this playerlist where most of the players are the type of player I'd qualify as being low-hanging fruit.
You are scum for the policy lynch, but not in the way you describe--it's an altogether different factor.

...Okay so in a sense I suppose the 'Mathdino is discrediting the case against him' point is

close

to one of my reasons for you being scum, but not in the way you present it. Beefster's actually much closer to the mark:

What actually struck me was not what was in your posts, but what appeared to be behind them. I'm put off more by the agenda that is in your posts.

^That is much more in line with my point.

You are concerned with looking good.
You are concerned with appearances.
You are concerned with how players are perceiving you.
You are far, far, far, FAR less concerned with who is the lynch--and that's the problem.

That's the POLAR OPPOSITE of your self-described town meta. How did you describe your townplay? Ah yes. I believe it goes like...

D1 of minis I mostly play off gut.
I've also gotten a lot more confident lately (which is helped by a few towngames where I was basically right for all of D1), and either people are around to rein me in, or they're not.
When I push early wagons, I expect that others will weigh in. I can easily get locked in tunnels in "sub-par towns".

You, as town, have stated that you play on gut, easily get locked in tunnels, and the like. (Including going on a tirade about how you tunneled Gamma D1.) Yet this game, you are utterly unconcerned about who is the lynch so long as it isn't you.

I am not usually a describey person. I normally don't like to quote posts from your iso which demonstrate the opposite because it's not a technique I consider pretty effective. But I'll make an exception:

Spoiler: Mathdino highlight reel

Your playstyle is naturally scummy, and if you're scum, explaining why is literally anti town for me to do. Regardless, I generally don't have strong reads on naturally scummy players. The scumminess masks the alignment indicative stuff.

Starts off innocently enough but we'll get there.

Edit: Always scummy, flashwagoning scummy players is great for (hilarious) reactions.

also note that i said this in reference to paradox's play
given that he's been mislynched in both games i've played with him, the idea that paradox is always scummy holds true
so do you also believe i'm shading paradox by saying this

Oh and the other half too I just wanted to separate it into two quotes for emphasis.

well i was shading your hydra's play quality
not your alignment
in fact, had you actually asked me if i was scumreading you about a page ago, i'd have called you gun-to-my-head town
@Beefster: do you think anything of the fact that inferno literally just gave me reasons for why i thought they were scummy

VOTE: InfernoBrafin
this has nothing to do with your generally scummy vibes FTR
opportunistic, could've easily voted me when i basically asked them to
instead chose to wait until after paradox voted me
then assuming reasons for other people scumreading them is an actual scumtell (i think? i haven't seen this behaviour often enough to confirm this but scum is generally more self-conscious)

(I'd also note the reversal in the IB read but that's a sidenote.)

but again
it was of no benefit for me to start telling everyone exactly how you're scummy
because
1. I don't want people to start using my reasons as bad reasons to scumread you.
2. I don't want to give you a road map to getting a townread from me. I want you to play how you naturally play and we'll see what happens.

what you're not understanding is the fact that i wasn't paragraphposting about what made you scummy was actively an effort to not start riling people up about you

and yeah, paradox has been mislynched in 2 different games, once mislynched while i was hard-defending him the entire game
so i believe i have the right to call paradox scummy
it's like you're actively ignoring the idea that a player can be scummy in every game they're in
jaydragonking and momo are obvious examples

If I were actually scumreading you at the time, I would've explained it. However, I was not scumreading you, I was noting that your playstyle is such that a lot of people are going to find it scummy. THAT'S what I mean by "scummy".
Now that I am scumreading you, I explained it.
2. Yeah, town doesn't do that, but scum does. There are times when fully explaining a scumread is anti-town. Plus I wasn't scumreading you, lol.
3. Yes! I was scum with him as town, and I recognised that he was generally pretty scummy (to the point where everyone else but me was scumreading him), but I hard defended him because he always plays that way as town. I was fake-townreading him, despite admitting that he was scummy and dropped scumtells everywhere.
Regardless, you now know my full thought process behind my progression on you, but you're still interpreting my posts under your definition of the word "scummy", when someone has already confirmed that's not how I use it. How does insisting on framing my posts using your definition, help you get a read on me?

(This isn't so much the "doesn't care about who gets lynched" half so much as it is "cares about how he, Mathdino, looks" half, but I thought I'd include those sorts of posts anyway.)

everyone voting me is doing something anti-town because i am town
i've also seen vigilantes shoot conftown before
are either of these actions scummy
obviously not
otherwise i could call anyone who ever votes me scummy
stop with the semantics and get into the game
like i've already won the semantics battle in terms of "people have confirmed that i do in fact use words this way outside of the game"

^The reason this is looking good but not caring who's lynched is twofold: if he's already won the argument, why is he continuing it? He's continuing to look good. Secondly, if he genuinely thought IB was scum, then instead of saying "stop with the semantics and get into the game", he would be calling the semantics something that IB was as scum using to attack him. He did not.

1. how is that a fallacy
from my perspective, anyone who votes me is doing something anti-town
does this give me the right to call people scummy for voting me
furthermore, is voting a mod-confirmed innocent child scummy?
fuck no, it's just a meme thing to do

2. just stop it with the wordplay
it's not misleading, because literally every other game i've been in people have understood it; you're the one choosing to harp on me for this because you're obsessed with wanting to know why i think you act scummy

I'M ALSO NOT CALLING YOU SCUMMY FOR THE SEMANTICS DISCUSSION BTW
SO ADD THAT TO THE LIST OF REASONS YOU'RE SCUM THAT YOU'VE PUT IN MY MOUTH

This is more or less trying to have his cake and eat it too: is IB scum pushing semantics, or is IB's semantics something Mathdino doesn't put much stock into, or is IB's semantics something Mathdino insists on defending himself against? Badly worded, but I think I can maybe get the point across--NOT ONLY is Mathblade treating IB as town while voting them, BUT ALSO continuing to defend himself to look good rather than focusing on scumhunting. If he were focusing on scumhunting, he'd be calling out IB's actions as being indicative of being scum, yet he rather explicitly says he doesn't think what they're doing IS.

@IB: "Scummy" is a set of behaviours that often ping people or get people to gutscumread them. Most newbies are scummy.
This is different from "scum-indicative", which is the set of behaviours that have been shown to indicate scum.
Inconsistency, for example is scummy. But I'd actually argue it's scum-indicative.
@Icon: I didn't intend to go through this trouble until it started actively confusing this hydra. It's generally not an issue with people.

(More "look good" posting.)

you do realise i only over-explain shit when asked to or when people don't understand me
the convo with IB was intended to help sort them (went null -> nulltown -> scumlean)
where in my posts do you see IIoA that wasn't a direct clarification to another player

Then why was he overexplaining to IB, someone he says is a scumread? Explaining to a scumread, by his own confession earlier in his posts, would be anti-town and yet if it holds true that he has a scumread there he has continued to do so. (Want me to requote where he says that explaining it to scum would be bad?)

@All

: Given that LUV is engaging with players and asking fair questions, I feel like I should be townreading him, but I'm really not. A lot of it seems like it could be scum going through the motions.

Comfortable with votes on LUV if you don't like the IB push

.

Here's a golden nugget!

I'll admit that if IB is town, Bujaber's probably the scum on the wagon, so I can see Marangal's perspective.

This is another one!

Also from that post is the other half, being concerned with appearances:

A. Wow, it's a good thing

I at no point scumread you guys until the page where I actually voted you

.

No read on the hydra, feels like they're playing in an

intentionally scummy

way, but whatever.

what about this post makes you think i'm shading you? do you believe i'm shading your alignment, or your skill/quality as a player?

DUDE. THE SERIOUS FRICK.

The answer to your own question is

literally

in the post you quoted. Either you're stupid (doubtful) not paying attention (likely) or this is insanely scummy. (Occam's Razor)

ughhhh
do i haaaaave to respond to this
do you understand that saying someone could be playing in a way that is intentionally scummy
DOES NOT MAKE THAT PLAYER SCUM
like, given that literally no one in this entire game actually is approaching this argument the way inferno is
i'd have expected brafin to come along and be like "yo inferno stop with the semantics debate, i see what mathdino's saying"
but the fact that he's apparently in lockstep with his partner is just unbelievable/unrealistic
scumread intensifies

The latter half also is inconsistent: if IB were scum, Mathdino would have no need to explain/respond to it. And yet he does so. Except, he calls it scum. It's again having cake while eating it behavior.

but him overly explaining and arguing about something insignificant is actually a personality trait.

I lol'd
Yeah I'm not continuing that debate
Fucking lol when players link me wiki pages in the middle of mafia games
Yo IB check out Slayers Gambit for a wiki page on a strategy that doesn't work
It's about being intentionally scummy early game to get reactions

NOT ONLY is this more of the worry over his appearances, BUT ALSO it is treating IB as town, indicating insincerity in the push.

Mathdino is town. I will literally quit mafiascum if math is scum here.
Effortpost tommorrow, too tired today.

Wow huh did I actually roll into my first game with scum Paradox

Also I'm basically down to policy lynch brafin at this point
They're never getting NKd if their reads include gems like
- BuJaber getting annoyed at BJ is alignment indicative
- Beefster scumslipped by saying TW and I share alignment
- Beefsterscum purposefully took an RVS vote as serious for ~reasons~
- Either I think IB is a jester or I'm admitting I'm scum
Hey IB I guess I'm scum
- Mathdino is scum for being defencive

The policy lynch part is a scumclaim in of itself, for reasons I'll explain at some later time, but for right now, I'll focus on a count.

Keeping track at home?

Mathdino has stated he'd lynch Paradox, LUV, InfernoBrafin, and BuJaber (caveat InfernoBrafin flipping town first admittedly) at this point in time.

Which behavior do you think this qualifies for?

"Tunnels easily playing off of gut", or "Not really concerned with who the lynch is"?

The former is Mathdino's self-professed town meta; the latter is behavior indicative of scum especially calculator scum.

1. basically yeah
i have little incentive to sort you right now

2. seems fine, most of it is town for independent reasons
if there's non-town on it it's bujaber
i think i said that already

3. i make nothing of it
i say fewer dumb things and have had better reads since i came back
so maybe great minds think alike, idk

I mean I think this is a scum-scum interaction but if you give benefit of the doubt and say Momra's town, this is more looking-good-work--working on his appearance without doing any real scumhunting.

VOTE: Not_Mafia
i'm so salty

it's at the very least a policy wagon
i'm not sure if i'd be willing to straight up lynch him right away
i'd say it's 40% policy 40% reaction/pressure 20% memes

And Not_Mafia is in his lynchlist now rather seriously, if you take the belief he would advocate for a policy lynch quite seriously.

In fact. Here's a post which says succinctly what most of my quotes above have been leading into.

Could be scum, wouldn't be surprised: {Bujaber, LUV}
Would lynch: {Paradox, IB, N_M}

Five names which are on the effective lynch shortlist.

Nearly half the playerlist, and

increasing

...not decreasing. A key difference between a town player and a scum player is that town work to decrease their lynchpool until it contains exactly the number of scum; scum work to increase their lynchpool until it contains enough mislynches to earn them a win.

So I'm at the point where I'd be willing to policy lynch half the playerlist

This sums it up nicely in fact. He is willing to lynch half the playerlist.

scummy is literally acting in a way that makes people scumread you
i've played games where all the scummiest players were town
look it's shit like this
that makes it in no way beneficial for me to keep interacting with you
why do you want me to continue filling up pages with a 1v1 against you
i just don't care anymore
like, there's not a single player in this game who's taken your side against me
and you think i've gone silent on your questioning because i'm scum who's afraid of you...?
literally the more i interact with you, the more other people want to vote you

This is more "looking good" work and furthermore not the way town talks to a scumread of theirs.

This is but a small selection of the total with incomplete descriptors attached. I don't like to rely on quotes because it gives the mistaken impression that all I have is the quotes I gave, nothing else. But this should give you a better idea of what I mean.

Consistently, throughout the game.
Mathdino has worked on looking good.
Consistently, throughout the game.
Mathdino has shown no conviction in his scumreads.
Consistently, throughout the game.
Mathdino has shown an interest in keeping his lynch options open, not honing in/focusing on a particular target.

[Mathdino]

would it help you if i actually read that

are you here yet

[Almost50]

I think I'm willing to let Dino live for today. Forcing him into defense + The IB issue aren't helping me get a read on him at all.

That said, it's be a farce if all three turned out to be Town, and scum were just watching in amusement. Of the 3 I'd say Mastina comes off townier followed by Dino, while I still have doubts about the IB slot (basically Inferno, which may or may not be just me not liking the play style.)

@Inferno: Can you please remind me of the last game we played together? I mean, I know I've played you before but can't remember anything about it.

[Carrot and Stick]

because she's already set herself up with "Assembler pulled me in at the wrong time, I suck D1" and is likely to default to "WOE IS ME MY READS SUCK" after my flip.

Nahhh. I expect to live to see D3. I'm not getting lynched this game I can guarantee you that. I might be the nightkill, be it reputation, accuracy, or the best combo of "unlikely to be protected/watched while still being a good idea to get rid of", but my plan is to either be so right that I'm someone scum think the doc/watch will be on or so wrong that scum keep me around hoping I'll get mislynched/lead the town towards mislynches even though I know I won't be.

And

day three

is the "woe is me my reads suck" day.

As I said before:

I'd reconsider come D3 and use your corpse plus the lynch of D2 and bodies of N1 and N2 to scumhunt. Not a moment sooner.

To put it simply:

I think you are scum. I am lynching you today.
If you are not scum, then my scumread was incorrect. I will reconsider reads D2, but given that most of my reads I still feel good about regardless of your alignment, I doubt there'd be much in the way of change.
If my reads prove incorrect a second time, then come D3 yes

I will go back and think of what you said.

No sooner.

For example, I disagree that scum more often than town, vote for lynchbait in RVS.

Maybe that's why you thought it was a good idea then.

I'll admit that I haven't really evaluated acryon's play after early game but I don't remember seeing anything particularly AI since then.

Maybe because acryon hasn't posted pretty much any real content since then.

attempting to sweepingly discredit nearly the entire player list for being "morons"

Sorry but I'm not going to sugarcoat things. I will call the shots as I see them. The original playerlist for this game was filled to the brim with players you could accurately define as lynchbait--do you debate this?

If so, then I ask you which players you think I call by that title which you feel don't warrant it. And be honest. Go through their games, see how often they are lynched, how often they are wagoned, how rarely people follow them, and come back to me. Because I'd say my assessment there is pretty accurate.

It is also not something I am using for high ground. I am bringing it up to make a point on players like Mathdino and Momrangal. Nothing more, nothing less.

casing the fuck out of the player who has BY FAR been the most proactive pre-replacements is nuts.

Repeat after me.
Effort != Alignment.
Effort != Alignment.
Effort != Alignment.
Effort != Alignment.
Effort != Alignment.

Effort != Alignment.
Effort != Alignment.
Effort != Alignment.
Effort != Alignment.
Effort != Alignment.

Effort != Alignment.
Effort != Alignment.
Effort != Alignment.
Effort != Alignment. Effort != Alignment. Effort != Alignment.

Effort does not, repeat. Does

NOT

correlate to alignment.

Mathdino has been the most proactive.

This is undeniably true.

But my case against him is off of

what he is

doing

while proactive

.

Mathdino's efforts are focused on looking good.
Mathdino's efforts are focused on making himself look better.
Mathdino's efforts are focused on leaving his lynchpool open.

These are traits which I don't care if you have 1, 10, 100, or 1,000 (god forbid) posts in a game on D1. It doesn't change the driving alignment behind them.

[InfernoBrafin]

@Almost. I can't discuss the last game we were in together because of site rules, if that helps.

[Carrot and Stick]

It attacks MD as if coming from a guilty result, that's how sure it is. All while saying that MD could 'definitely' still be town.

These do not contradict. They augment. It is possible Mathdino is town. I outline exactly how and why that is possible...

...And then describe

why I don't think it's the case

.

That's how you go about convincing people to change their stances--

You ACKNOWLEDGE their points. You RECOGNIZE where they have valid arguments...and then you explain why you feel those arguments don't apply, why you instead feel it is the other way around, and present the evidence for your side.

TheGoldenParadox had stated an infallible townread on Mathdino.

I acknowledged it's possible Mathdino's town, because it IS. Saying it's not would be a lie. My working theory is that he's scum, but it is always possible for my working theory to be wrong because I am not a scumhunting goddess. I believe the read to be right. It is a very, very, VERY strong read. It'd be loosely akin to a gunsmith guilty I'd say in strength rather than as you word it a cop guilty--something I very, very, very strongly feel is indicative that yes he is scum, but where it would in fact be at least theoretically possible for him to be town.

This is the only approach viable to take when trying to convince players whose reads differ from yours.

Just flatout saying bluntly, "You're wrong" gets you nowhere.

I believe Mathdino is scum.
I am pushing Mathdino as being scum.
I recognize reasons why he is seen as town.
But I explain why I feel those reasons don't apply.

Does it make sense now?

I'm pretty sure those 'associations' can be made if you pick random players and reread their interactions.

Nope! Only those three have that type of association. I can quote Momrangal posts to acryon and Mathdino and compare them to others to demonstrate the difference; I can quote acryon posts to Momrangal and Mathdino compared to others to demonstrate the difference; I can and to some extent HAVE quoted Mathdino posts to Momrangal and acryon compared to those of others.

Let's just say that as long as MD is playing the town game, which Carrot admites MD is playing, I'm not lynching there.

That's not what I was saying. I was saying look-town. Not being town. Important distinction. Mathdino LOOKS town. Mathdino IS NOT DOING town things. The two should

NEVER

be confused with one another. Looking town is not indicative of being town. Doing town things is indicative of being town. Mathdino might have the former but he lacks the latter.

369 even more hedging.

No. Stating facts.
I believe Mathdino is scum. This is my working theory.
Only an idiot commits 100% to their scumread being right, especially when asked for what would happen if it were wrong. Mathdino wanted to know what I'd do if he were town; I gave my answer.
This stance has never changed, never shifted, and is absolute:
I believe Mathdino is scum.
I have a plan if he is not scum.
That doesn't change that I still think he is scum.
It just means I have an idea of what I'll do if I am wrong.

[Mathdino]

sup

state exactly what you're gonna do if you're wrong or y'all get lynched after my flip, mastina

i can't read you under this tunnel

[Almost50]

@Almost. I can't discuss the last game we were in together because of site rules, if that helps.

LOL.. ok, thanks!

[Carrot and Stick]

You're scumreading half the player list with no explanation. Help me understand.

Sure thing! I stated that BuJaber and Beefster and The Worst were all above the nulline.

You're incorrectly representing the bottom half as being scumreads below the nullline.

They were not.

They were various degrees of "no definitive read here". Listed top to bottom from "overall see both ways but least likely to be scum" to "overall see more scum than town" more or less. But the reads were so close in strength as to be highly flexible and fluent. I self-professed in posts you conveniently skip that I was having difficulty:

I realize that's four people in a game which is nigh-guaranteed to have only three scum and thus at least one of InfernoBrafin/acryon/LUV/GoldenParadox must be town (not even going into how it doesn't account for players unposted yet in that any of the people not posting by that point could be scum and thus mean more than one in the above is town), but 'tis what it is.

I admit the wording here isn't clear so you could in fact construe those four to be scumreads but saying they were scumreads would be inaccurate. I meant exactly what I said: I had one player above the nulline, even though I knew that AT LEAST one of the other four players to have posted

must

be town at minimum. Wording is important.

Still, I indicated my trouble with locking down a read all the same.

If I had to give a phrase describing my read on those four at the time, it'd be, "these four are people who'd be possible scum but I know that at minimum one would be town and I have absolutely no real sorting reference for them in terms of whether they're actually scum or town".

Unfortunately, even though I absolutely should have both you and Momra sorted, no such luck. I'll probably be resorting to a readslist in order to sort players, with the caveat that there's not really much in the way of townreads so much as it is a hierarchy of "these are the players I find least scummy". Which is backwards from my preferred, but better than nothing at all.

And here I explicitly explain my process--that I am having trouble, that the list is "see both ways but least scummy at top", but that I don't have much in the way of something locked down.

Of course, I was dissatisfied with that. Which is what continued reading was useful for and continued effort to try and sort the slots and narrow it down. (Because again, scum try to widen the lynchpool; town try to shrink it.) Given that I currently have exactly three scumreads no more no less? I'd say I was highly successful in that endeavor. I am at exactly the spot I need to be at for D1.

Also I'm basically down to policy lynch brafin at this point

This alone is a scumclaim from Mathdino.

Is scum!Dino this blatant about a PL, especially on someone that he would know is town?

Absolutely, yes, and it is specifically BECAUSE he knows they are town that it is so blatant. (This is a preview for the

real

reason Mathdino's policy lynch on InfernoBrafin is a scumclaim.)

my reason for jumping on InfernoBrafin in the first place was RVS. I stayed on because it's produced some good pressure and content I think.

Well aside from your RVS vote being a scum-RVS vote, I don't dispute that it was an RVS vote. (It WAS an RVS vote, it's just that it was an RVS vote which is a scum-RVS-vote rather than a town-RVS-vote.) It's the staying on which is the real problem though because "it produced good pressure and content" != "InfernoBrafin is scum".

In fact, quite the opposite. Stating you stayed on because it produced good pressure and content is giving you an out: if InfernoBrafin was mislynched with you on the wagon, you could say "I didn't scumread InfernoBrafin incorrectly, it was a pressure vote for content!". Now, pray tell, which alignment is motivated to act in that way?

[Carrot and Stick]

my reason for jumping on InfernoBrafin in the first place was RVS. I stayed on because it's produced some good pressure and content I think.

Well aside from your RVS vote being a scum-RVS vote, I don't dispute that it was an RVS vote. (It WAS an RVS vote, it's just that it was an RVS vote which is a scum-RVS-vote rather than a town-RVS-vote.) It's the staying on which is the real problem though because "it produced good pressure and content" != "InfernoBrafin is scum".

In fact, quite the opposite. Stating you stayed on because it produced good pressure and content is giving you an out: if InfernoBrafin was mislynched with you on the wagon, you could say "I didn't scumread InfernoBrafin incorrectly, it was a pressure vote for content!". Now, pray tell, which alignment is motivated to act in that way?

The word I was looking for here was "accountability".

acryon stating he kept the vote on because "it produced good pressure and content" is a way of leaving himself with no accountability for the vote on a player which we undoubtedly will learn later in the game is town.

To give a counterexample: I am incredibly accountable for my Mathdino and acryon scumreads (I'd lump Momrangal in there but while I've voted Mathdino and acryon I haven't voted Momrangal so she's not as strong an example).
I have stated my reasons for voting there, I have indicated strongly my scumreads, and if these prove incorrect, I hold responsibility for them having been incorrect. I've been rather unambiguous about this.

Instead of stating that he held InfernoBrafin to be scum (something he'd be held accountable for), he is denying accountability by stating it was a pressure vote producing content.

Which alignment, I ask, has a stronger motivation for this?

[Carrot and Stick]

@acryon - why did you comment on carrot's first readlist (the one he claims is correct up to page 3), but not the second?

Because I was quoting as I went through, and the initial one was posted for a reason.

AKA, because if you quoted the most recent one your 'point' would fall apart altogether.

I'm not giving them much credit for an abundance of critical analysis happening between the two.

Frankly that's because when I locked reads down I started skimming posts from the people whose reads I had locked down...

...With the caveat that I was still scanning them looking for red flags which indicated the read I locked them as would be wrong.

By and large, with the potential exception of Beefster (even that's a stretch) and maybe, maybe, maaaaaaaaaaaaaybe The Worst (but I very sincerely doubt it), no player really did anything which triggered said "oh this means I need to reevaluate" flags. Thus the speed of my reading picked up as I honed in on things which were
-Important to comment on, or
-Actually DID change my reads, as they developed.

I'm thinking that our bagnning exchange was just TvT that was really hardcore.

The problem with that mindset is that that's

exactly

what Mathdino does as scum--he deliberately orchestrates fights to appear TvT. Furthermore, I outlined why his continued engagement with you falls under scum behavior for a different reason: in the engagement, his aim was to appear town. His aim was to look good. His aim was not to scumhunt; any thoughts where he indicated alignment while engaging with you were quite literally thrown in as afterthoughts which ended up clashing with the rest of the post as a consequence.

[Carrot and Stick]

Also, I would also like to know why all these people are calling this slot obvtown, becasue I can tell where the scumreads on me are coming from. So I don't understand what part of my play is making me obvtown.

Honestly. I want to explain why you're town, but I can't. Maybe there's a way to describe it, but I'm struggling to find it. I loathe, absolutely loathe, the thought of calling it 'gut'. That doesn't seem like the right term to use. It undersells it.

Like. You are VERY strongly town. That's not gut. That's something far more. But I don't have much in the way of a description for why. You fit as town; you don't fit as scum. A term which I am hesitant to use to describe it would be tone--I feel like it is something

related

to tone, but by calling it 'tone' I'd be calling it the wrong thing just as I would be with gut. I can say your posts come off as incredibly sincere and genuine, in a way which strongly resonates as being indicative of town truthfully pushing things rather than scum truthfully pushing things (there is a difference) and it CERTAINLY doesn't feel like scum falsefully pushing things. But that's not quite adequate a descriptor for why you are town.

You just have this type of town resonance. An aura where your alignment says "just isn't scum". There's a way to logically, reasonably define this I am sure. But I'm incapable of giving it to you, unfortunately.

acryon's vote looks opportunistic.

That's because it is, not to mention OMGUSy.

Brafin:

It's interactions like these that makes feel like Beef and Math not compatible as scumteam. They are too natural and real to be from SvS.

I believe you are correct though I'd think Beefster scum if Mathdino weren't and yet I absolutely advocate for a Mathdino lynch first between those two.

Acron is striking me as scum. His vote seems kind of out there and OMGUS-y. Not much explanation on the vote.

Honestly I know it could potentially be self-sabotaging to try and simultaneously push both the acryon and Mathdino wagons through since I know that ultimately only one can succeed and me attempting both could potentially screw me over thanks to dividing between the two, but fuck it, dueling scum wagons is okay with me.

Would you be willing to back this up with an acryon vote?

Or, given this:

Math, if we explained to you why your play was scummy, it would be detrimental to town, wouldn't it?
See, this is another example of lack of consistency. He expects the meta rules he puts out there to only apply to him (he can call people scummy without scumreading, he's not allowed to explain his reads on others but others should explain reads on him, etc.) It strikes me as a very un-townie way to play. I'm still not prepared to say scum, but it's just can't find justification for it as town.

...Is a Mathdino lynch still preferable for you?

I disagree that self awareness nullifies the scumminess of actions

A great way for me to believe this and at least entertain the idea of you being town would be for you to back this with an acryon vote!

You want to live through D1?

I'd be all too happy to lynch acryon.

[Carrot and Stick]

their ISO

reeks

of attempts to manipulate through appeals to authority.

^{[citation needed]}

335 feels like theater, as if they hadn't reviewed the posts of their slot first. Are we really believing that?

Given that I read games chronologically and thus post 25 doesn't exist until after I've read post 24? Why yes. Yes we really are believing that. I wasn't caught up, and thus I had no idea where my slot was voting. I broke the chronology rule to check where the vote was placed. But I enforce it strongly otherwise. I never read posts, not even my hydra's posts, unless reading chronologically.

From someone who claimed ignorance to my later readslist, this is something particularly egregious. (Basically, it's hypocritical to not consider that I use this method when this very method is what you used to justify your content.)

327 starts with garbage. Saying 4 of the 5 people are scummy as of post 20. This should be the first red flag.

I'm not going to requote myself for why that's incorrect, but I have a DIFFERENT reason for quoting this.

What makes you point out my list, and yet...

Could be scum, wouldn't be surprised: {Bujaber, LUV}
Would lynch: {Paradox, IB, N_M}

...Ignore this from Mathdino?

330 I have already commented on, but has fully half the game in scum category. If this isn't building up a massive lynch pool, then I don't know what is.

Except...

Iconeum
BuJaber

(notable gap)

Beefster
The Worst

(small gap)

alban/marshy
InfernoBrafin
Kthxbye
Lil Uzi Vert

(rather some gap)

TheGoldenParadox

(big gaping canyon of a gap)

Momrangal
Mathdino
acryon

About this at the end of seven.

Final readslist is:
Lil Uzi Vert/Almost50
alban/marshy/Not_Mafia
Iconeum
BuJaber
TheGoldenParadox
InfernoBrafin

(notable gap)

The Worst
Beefster

(small gap)

Kthxbye

(big gaping canyon of a gap)

Momrangal
acryon
Mathdino

Mathdino is in his scum meta. I know the difference between him and Mathblade, but trying to imply I think he's them when it was clearly a typo on my part is the latest in the reasons why he's scum. (I might mentally type 'Mathblade' when I mean 'Mathdino', but I would never confuse the two as players. Not least of all because Mathblade is a close friend of mine that I have interactions with outside of mafiascum whereas Mathdino is more of a close associate.)

...My actual play doesn't match what you say. I didn't build up a lynchpool. I SHRANK it. I shrank it to be precisely three names, and three names ONLY. The exact number of scum to expect in a mini theme especially one modconfirmed to be singleball town vs. groupscum only. No less, sure...but also no more. There was also a clear evolution in reads. I demonstrated more or less exactly where and why the reads were evolving, even.

Acryon is treating my readslist in 330 as if it were the final product, when it was the first prototype and one I self-confessed in multiple ways was flawed and I knew it to be flawed. So I worked on fixing it. He's acting as if I didn't.

[Carrot and Stick]

Oops. That was meant to be posted with this.

BuJaber's methodology is such that he is not one making friends; everything he does is antagonizing people.

What. The fuck. Are you reading?

The game.

BuJaber "cheerleads" players which he townreads and he feels raise good points.

This is not scum behavior. (I mean it's not necessarily town behavior, either; I'd call it either NAI or very slightly town indicative, but in no realm is it scum indicative.)

BuJaber is antagonistic with players which he scumreads.

This is not (often) scum behavior. (When it is it is usually to mimic town meta of doing the same.)

He has more neutral interactions with reads he has as more neutral.

This is not (often) scum behavior.

Or to put it another way,

Outside of his first post and his pushes back on me and his pushes on IB he's very much a cheerleader

"Outside of all these moments which are actually important moments in the game, he's a cheerleader".

[Carrot and Stick]

I would've loved to have been the first to vote C&S, but unfortunately they were active during times when I don't play.

Oh?

acryon's vote looks opportunistic.

I think opportunism being scummy requires some amount of trying to look like it's something it's not. I was pretty up-front in my sheeping. I suppose you're welcome to not believe that I actually felt what I felt, but calling it opportunistic when I was so open about it seems

opportunistic

.

I'd love to hear your explanation for how these two stances aren't mutually exclusive with one another.

[Carrot and Stick]

I can't wait for mastina to come back and post walls about how she's not this scummy as scum

Sorry, that's your forte not mine since you're the one who drew scum.

[Iconeum]

Well, of all things posted against MD, at least Carrot & Stick's posts aren't bullshit.
Really REALLy disliking IB's continues shitposting.

Resorting to calling MD's defense 'fabricated anger' is just laughable. What do you honestly expect would happen with that kind of posting? MD has made a lot of effort in steering the conversation away from that, but IB just keeps going back.

I'd like to continue to D2 with MD alive, keeping Carrot's posts about him ready to fall back on if needed.
Going to reread IB's ISO to see if I actually read him as scum for it...

fp'd by Carrot, haven't read it yet

[Carrot and Stick]

IF DINO FLIPPED TOWN WHO WOULD BE SCUM

Funny that you ask that when you have no answer to the very same question on BuJaber.

I do:
acryon remains as scum regardless of Mathdino. While interactions suggest they are scumbuddies, acryon remains individually a scumfuck even lacking them.
You, Momrangal, remain as scum regardless of Mathdino. While interactions still tell me scumbuddies, I'd think you scum even lacking them.
Beefster would be my best bet for a third to fill the gap Mathdino would leave. It doesn't have nearly the same level of scumbuddy interactions admittedly, so I wouldn't hold nearly the same level of confidence, but he's the read which I'd most think would fit the pattern of scum.

I'd not consider BuJaber as scum a moment before D3.

Do you still say you have no answer for BuJaber?
And for that matter do you still not have scumbuddies FOR BuJaber?

[Carrot and Stick]

i'm not even scumreading paradox

Oh?

If you told me you weren't really scumreading InfernoBrafin in this post I'd believe it given your attitude towards them has been ranting at "incompetent-town" (the perspective you seem to always take on them) all game long.

This certainly isn't a descriptor I'd apply to Paradox!

[Iconeum]

Carrot, let's talk about Momrangel. I read many of his posts as pro town. Even trying to 'seperate' the 2 bulls in their hornfight I read as pro town. I also see good content re scumhunting in his ISO.
Where is the scumread coming from?