Open 714: Tit for Tat [Game Over]

[Mathdino]

ignoring meta (lazy), there's almost definitely some number of scum in {Luca, jmo}

luca can be scum yeah

[Luca Blight]

Why is there

almost definitely

scum in me and jmo, and why are you favouring me as scum?

[Mathdino]

i'd rather not talk about the jmo thing right now (i'm waiting for a certain thing to happen), and i think my posts regarding you should pretty easily indicate why i'm scumreading you

still not gonna talk to me about anything other than literally me suspecting you?

[Luca Blight]

Wait, so you're hardscumreading me based on the RVS post, and because I'm only focusing on two players at this current moment? That is truly laughable.

I will take a look at the bigger picture when I have time. I'm currently looking after my son which impairs my ability to do analysis.

[Mathdino]

i don't really care about your RVS post anymore, that was a trademark shitty early mathdino read

i believe your lines of questioning toward me and jmo are predatory in nature

[Luca Blight]

Interesting how you choose to interpret it as

predatory

instead of genuinely trying to create information and attain a read on someone.

Perhaps you can detail why it's the former instead of the latter?

[Luca Blight]

This feels like "you caught me for the wrong reasons", not gonna lie

This actually seems

predatory

to me; you're using my questioning of the validity of your comment as a reason in itself why I'm scum.

I pointed out how groundless this was, which you of course ignored.

[Luca Blight]

@Luca: Like dude both of the people you're aggressively interrogating (and that your whole ISO is directed to) are the only 2 people who suspected you

I will look at 1974 pokemon mafia tomorrow. Something something about Jay being scum and having issues with people about voting him about RVS and reacting the same way as he is now... I'm not voting you yet, because that game may very well clear you, but we will see about it tomorrow.

I actually don't understand what you're trying to say here.

[Mathdino]

yeah sure

now to show everyone the power of the lolcase

Spoiler: a lolcase on luca

This post is meh. You're acting like this is a great advantavge for town so we can "hold people to their word" but in reality, you can iso someone and it would literally be more informative.

'

Meh

'? Are you actually trying to read his alignment based on a post praising the mod for putting links in the vote count?

people try to read each other based on RVS posting all the time; luca is in no way newbie enough to not realise this
harping on other people for generating content is outright detrimental

I skimmed the thread and you stood out as someone just making comments that are actually pretty useless like the one I quoted above.

The fact you want to get me to L-1 not only based on nothing but when I wasn't even active at the time makes matters worse. You also drop that wagon at the first opportunity, which brings into question your motivation for doing it in the first place.

literally untrue, jmo was making comments/early reads that were fine, but some of the comments point to luca so

also this is pure AtE
"woe is me, you want this poor player to be at l-1 based on nothing"
what's wrong with the motivation
how is dropping the RVS wagon alignment indicative
notably, luca didn't point out the fact that i and a few others completely dropped their RVS wagons that they said they supported (i'm no longer voting NSG/aneninen)
he's just harping on jmo in particular, heaping on things

Well at least I'm trying to start up a conversation here about topics that are game related.

And for the question about Mutant, I do the same exact thing as scum that I did once as town. I have no doubt in my mind he would do the same.

Right, you voting him has no basis then.

You look like you're trying to play the same way you did last game as town, so that means you've got to be scum... what?

Since when did votes need a solid basis? Your vote on me had literally none, and yet you wanted to get me to L-1.

What is the basis behind your Creature vote?

bad take
overemphasises the hardness of RVS wagons to paint himself as the victim
jay clearly came up with reasoning for his mutant vote, and jmo was pointing out that the reasoning was flawed
plus this doesn't actually even address jmo's comment (which, admittedly, was bad)
it's just harping on jmo for being hypocritical instead of engaging in the discussion

it's standard "gotcha" scumhunting

@Math

: I find it extraordinary how you could get any sort of ping from this post:

VOTE: Jay

His record ends now.

As RVS posts go, that is pretty standard.

Why did you not mention this ping at the time, instead of vaguely agreeing that I '

can be scum

' when jmo voted me? Why bother making such a remark only to change the topic entirely in your very next sentence?

Jay tried to have reasoning behind his. I didn't think it was legit. I stated this.

His reasoning is no different than that of '

gut

' - there is no real evidence what he thinks is true, he just feels it's the case.

Is there any particular reason you didn't want to get Mutant to L-1?

1. self defence by way of "hey my RVS post was standard!", apparent disbelief in the value of early gutreads

2. instead of actually asking where i got my read from (which is what you would ask if, you know, trying to sort me), he asks leading questions trying to highlight some perceived inconsistency
"WHY ARE YOU A HYPOCRITE"
"Well I mean I'm really no-"
"OKAY WHY ARE YOU NOW BEING INCONSISTENT"
"Well I think your lines of questioning are a little predato-"
"NO YOU'RE BEING PREDATORY, I'M TRYING TO CREATE INFORMATION"
^Luca in a nutshell

Presumably you didn't want to get Mutant to L-1 like you did with me and Creature, or else you would have voted him instead of disagreeing with Jay. I was wondering why you didn't choose to join the wagon of an active player, rather than start a wagon on an absentee.

Why mention you're looking at my scum games? Do you do that every time you take a metadive?

how is this actually going to ever help determine jmo's alignment
like what kinds of responses are you even looking for here

and again with the victimisation, calling himself an absentee as if that matters

@Luca: Like dude both of the people you're aggressively interrogating (and that your whole ISO is directed to) are the only 2 people who suspected you

What is your point exactly?

I'm not aggressively interrogating you; I'm just pointing out your dubious scumread based on my RVS post.

i mean i think my point is pretty obvious here
like that post IS the point
and so i don't see the point of asking this question

Then how do you expect to get out of RVS
Gimme a break, this is how the game goes
Talk about your reads on others

What are you talking about? RVS was long gone by the time jmo voted me and you agreed that I '

can be scum

'.

Your comment was terrible. Face it.

ah yep and now back to deflecting on me
ignoring the point tho
RVS is used to get early reads on people
jmo had an early read based on your RVS post
so did i
what about that is not okay
and how does you being absent actually make a difference

tl;dr
predatory as shit
constantly brings up the point that jmo tried to wagon a poor inactive player
harps on people for bringing content into the game, then claims these poor lines of questioning are in fact the true heroes of the game

probscum

[Luca Blight]

To counter your case point by point:

1. Did you even read what you quoted? Because that wasn't an RVS post jmo was reading Jay on.

2. You are inventing the AtE there. The reason I '

harped on

', as you keep saying, is because he stated he wanted to get me to L-1 and then dropped the wagon at the drop of a hat - this, as I said, made me question if his intention to get me to L-1 in the first place was genuine.

3. I already addressed this. I wasn't painting myself as the victim btw - you are twisting things to suit your narrative.

4, Err, why would I ask where you got your read from when you had already told me it was a gut ping? What is wrong with questioning an inconsistency? Your attempted parody of my posting style is embarrassingly distorted, btw. You're trying to paint me as thought I'm AtE'ing all over the place, which isn't the case.

5. F*ck off with the victimisation thing, it's getting irritating. I think my reasoning for asking that question is so clear I don't even feel the need to answer it.

6. I don't see the point of you bringing this up.

7. You're moving the goalposts. Your point was that he said it to get us out of RVS - we were already out of RVS by the time he voted me.


I don't believe you're being genuine with your views here. You're so blatantly trying to misrep me and twist what I've said into it being AtE and victimisation when it's clearly not the case. Math - probscum.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Math

[Mathdino]

If Luca played with me before I'd be townreading that

Lucascum underestimates the ease of lynching me

I'm good with this 1v1

[Mathdino]

see that's the thing here

your lines of questioning are basically designed to maneuver into a position of scumreading people

obviously you weren't going to like any reasons i had to scumread you

and you obviously werne't going to like any of jmo's answers to your questions

that's what makes it predatory
instead of wasting your time asking questions like that when you don't actually intend to work with them
you should be spending your time really sorting people

[Luca Blight]

That's just the spin you're trying to put on it, but it's baseless. This is my way of sorting - I question things that seem off to me or don't make sense in some way. If the other player cannot answer satisfactorily then that's their problem; it doesn't make my question predatory.

You, on the other hand, have been deliberately misrepping me and twisting everything I've said into 'victimisation' where there was none. I don't see any Town motivation behind such underhand tactics.

[Luca Blight]

HOT TAKE: NSG is locktown. Good to know, moving on then.

Math townreads NSG after her 90, in which she asks the same kind of probing questions Math scumreads me for.

Why is NSG's 90 Town, yet my similar points/questions are

predatory

?

[Mathdino]

It was also about post 88. I've read NSG's scumgames, and she's nowhere near as awkward this game.

The initial posts were weird but those couple posts she made were pretty insightful and seemed like questions that could make people rethink things, which is what I expect from town-NSG more than anything.

Your posts basically lead you to scumread people and leave it at that. I can list about 10 questions in your ISO that there's really no good response to. In my experience, questions like that are either busywork or theatre, both from scum.

[Luca Blight]

"Your posts basically lead you to scumread people and leave it at that"

- How is that the case when I've continued to engage with the players I scumread? You're the one who voted jmo without any relevant interaction with him, so I'd say you're more guilty of that than me.

I maintain that my questions have been of the same nature as the one's NSG asked, which contribute to your townread of her. You can't glaze over this fact.

Your point about there being

'no good response'

to my questions is just weird - if an obvious answer was available at hand then there would be no point asking the question. The fact they are hard to answer is what makes them good questions.

[Mathdino]

ok i guess we're doin this

VOTE: Luca

you wanna go after me in a playerlist with a proven track record of correctly reading me (minus jay and paradox who were bad that one time), be my guest

i'm not gonna continue this 1v1 unless you start doing the "every single post mathdino makes is proof he's scum" thing, let's leave it at this page and see what people think

there's always that one player...

[mutantdevle]

I was literally coughing with laughter over Jay's and Math's conversation about me. I don't think Jay faked it, they seemed so passionate about why I should be lynched that it definitely felt like they were genuinely confusing me for the worst. Not sure whether I'd town read them for it though. Had I actually been the worst instead of myself it would mean nothing to Jay's alignment. I could see scum Jay trying to get an easy lynch on the worst with the reasoning that them being lynch bait would be informative for those on the wagon.

I'm a little cautious over jmo defending me so heavily tbh. He pressured Jay a lot but never voted, it felt much more like he was defending me than pushing Jay. I can only assume I'm nothing more than a null read for everyone at the moment so the only reason I can see for him defending me is because he knows my alignment and looking for town cred if I flip.

I'm liking the discussion between Math and Luca, mainly because I see them both as strong players that I'd like to sort. I'm already leaning town on Mathdino so I'm hoping his interactions with Luca will help me sort him. From my game with Luca (the first game I ever played on this site) I remember distrusting him at the start but then town reading him as I agreed with more and more of what he was saying. I currently distrust him again so if he is also town this game then I expect to be agreeing with him by day 2, but if not, and my distrust remains, it will probably develop into a scum lean.

Btw, does anyone know if it's Anen's meta to lurk? Regardless, more content is needed from them than 1 post that is just a naked vote. So I'm going to take up Math's offer of mini-waggoning them so that they start posting.

VOTE: Aneninen

[Luca Blight]

ok i guess we're doin this

VOTE: Luca

you wanna go after me in a playerlist with a proven track record of correctly reading me (minus jay and paradox who were bad that one time), be my guest

i'm not gonna continue this 1v1 unless you start doing the "every single post mathdino makes is proof he's scum" thing, let's leave it at this page and see what people think

there's always that one player...

This is terrible.

I don't give a fuck if you're known by the player list - if I think you're scum I will 'go after you', regardless of anything else. It's like a boxer being arrogant about winning a fight because it's in his own back yard and he knows the judges are biased. This is not a townie mindset.

You seem to be reluctantly voting me because I'm continuing the 1v1 rather than for the reasons you gave; that's what your last post says to me. You don't even try to deny that you've been misrepping me and twisting the meaning of my words to portray it all as victimisation - of course you can't deny it, because it's there in black and white. You can't undo what you've already done.

[Mathdino]

okay so you're doing that thing anyway got it

look i'd really rather be doing other things, i was on a roll and had my own projects going on, etc etc

the comments about you were offhand, and yeah, i was scumreading you, but i also wanted to let things play out (and get your thoughts on other players) first

if you read it as reluctant, yes, that was intentional

if you have a problem with me not denying misrep/twisting... what would denying that actually do for you? people will read it and get the facts straight, and if i'm tunneling on town, i'm sure (well, hopeful) that someone will have a good towncase for you

now if you have a problem with me bringing other players into the mix
the judges aren't "biased", i've played against almost everyone the people i know in this game as scum, and one player here even modded my scumgame
i would be floored if the majority of those players ended up reading me incorrectly, regardless of my alignment

let the game happen
the longer you stay in this 1v1 the worse things get for you, and the less able i am to get to my other projects

[Mathdino]

the longer you stay in this 1v1 the worse things get for you

oh man this line is gonna completely set you off isn't it

preemptive "chilllll bro"

you've made your case, go find something else to do

i'm waiting on reads on other players

[Luca Blight]

You said you were good with the 1v1 earlier; what changed?

It feels like you had no counter to my arguments so you just essentially gave up.

I don't get your vote on me - am I even your top scumread? I thought it would act as a prelude to a push against me, but you seem to be done with this now.

[pinturicchio]

instead of actually asking where i got my read from (which is what you would ask if, you know, trying to sort me), he asks leading questions trying to highlight some perceived inconsistency
"WHY ARE YOU A HYPOCRITE"
"Well I mean I'm really no-"
"OKAY WHY ARE YOU NOW BEING INCONSISTENT"
"Well I think your lines of questioning are a little predato-"
"NO YOU'RE BEING PREDATORY, I'M TRYING TO CREATE INFORMATION"
^Luca in a nutshell

Your attempted parody of my posting style is embarrassingly distorted, btw. You're trying to paint me as thought I'm AtE'ing all over the place, which isn't the case.

Don't want to add fuel to the fire, but I felt exactly how Mathdino depicted you in his parody while reading your posts. Maybe you should take a step back and see the whole situation on cold? I'm townleaning you because I got your point and I believe your playstyle is indeed looking for scum, but I understand why someone (like Math, for example) could be scumreading you. I don't want that, I want town townreading town, and I'm feeling this 1v1 was TvT.

[Mathdino]

You said you were good with the 1v1 earlier; what changed?

It feels like you had no counter to my arguments so you just essentially gave up.

I don't get your vote on me - am I even your top scumread? I thought it would act as a prelude to a push against me, but you seem to be done with this now.

1. I didn't wanna be "that guy" who fills up an entire page with a 1v1 with someone I'm scumreading while keeping my vote on the guy I'm defending from my scumread.

2. I no longer

care

. You made your counterarguments. They just weren't good. You didn't outright lie or anything, so there's nothing really glaring to go over.

3. I mean yes? Like, it's page 7, I haven't really properly sorted other people. Kinda wanted to keep fucking around with wagons for a while instead of getting in this drawn out thing.
People can vote you if they scumread you. Given that you went from 0 to, let's say, 80, in 2 pages, I don't think a wagon on you is really going to add to my read on you, and I'd really rather you just talk about something else.

[JaydragonKing]

Dino has multiple times waited for other people to chat to figure the game out, even to his detriment before when he should have spoken up. Thinking about this makes his play in a recent game of ours seem so much more obvious he was actually evil, but that's neither here or there. He is doing something that is a town tell of his, as well as something I think particularly tells me something that I'm not mentioning in thread.