Open 714: Tit for Tat [Game Over]

[Mathdino]

He is doing something that is a town tell of his, as well as something I think particularly tells me something that I'm not mentioning in thread.

I believe you're insinuating that I'm dropping power role tells, which can't be happening because I forgot my role. Like I THINK I'm a VT just because that's more likely but I have this niggling feeling that I'm actually a jailkeeper or a vig, so...

Anyway if you're implying there's a bunch of ideas I'm hiding, you're pretty much right on that, and I appreciate you not mentioning it

The "figure out if Jay knows who mutantdevle is" was just a precursor, my friend

[JaydragonKing]

You underestimated my oblivious nature on the matter until you told me in my face it was actually Mutant. You have also underestimated my scumgame too.

Clearly I'm full of weird suprises.

[Aneninen]

Catching-up.

Mutantdevle's 11 is WTF. What if he tried to be cheeky?

Mathdino's 12 is something we should remember if he flips town. Right now, it's null. It's just as likely that he wants to be the town leader as scum. (By the way, f-ck that game! I know that I'm the worst Vig ever on MafiaScum. Others could talk about it too.) His 17 was WTF, on the other hand. Since when can an RVS be bad?

Jaydragonking's 19 was ugh. I know it seems I only find null things, but frankly, I've never seen anyone blowing her own trumpet in such an irritating way. (If it turns out later than it was a joke, ignore this. 28 suggests it wasn't a joke.)

Mathdino's 26 contains too many reads considering it was only early-Page2. Either he was reaction testing or scum trying to take over the town. We'll see, I guess.

Northsidegal's 29 is too nervous. What wagon? On Page2?

Mutantdevle's 32 was terrible. Too concerned about his own joke and tiptoe-ing around a possible wagon on me? Mathdino, did you mean such things in your first post when you had talked about Mutantdevle? Or wait, in 35 you said:

"Edit: Does anyone have scum meta of mutant? That would help here. I have a hunch on how he would behave as scum."

So you know only his townplay?

Why was that much talk about a possible Vig plan?

Almost50, what was the point of your 46?

Jmo16mla was right in his 54.

I don't understand why Gamma brought that replacement up in 58, especially if he added two posts later:

"lolwut that was in the past dude"

How can I say, he was posting without producing real content.

Mathdino's 63. I still don't get why you wanted a wagon on NSG or me. Reaction tests on us or on the players jumping on?

Jaydragonking's 64 (and others before). She had a terribly high fluff/content ratio.

Jmo16la's 65 was WTF. Why did you want a wagon to L–1 on Luca? Or was that a joke again? Than back to Creature in 85. For those who know him: is he a vote-hopper as town? (Or as scum?)

Mathdino's 74:

"We're talking about mutantdevle. No one else comment on this convo, thanks."

I don't see how that kind of attitude helps town. (Side-note. If both him and Jaydragonking are scum, we'll have a hard time.) In general, Mathdino and Jaydragonking was posting a lot around that time... but with little useful content.

I didn't like Northsidegal's 88. It gave me bad vibes, but I can't put my finger on it, why. But, I

know

what's wrong with his 90!

"pretty lame thing to hop on jay for – he was just responding to a question that gamma asked him."

– That referred to Jmo16mla's post (which I commented here, see above). He did

not

hop on Jaydragonking, he didn't even vote for her. I know it's only Day1, but what if both Northsidegal and Jaydragonking are scum? We should remember this post if any of those two flips scum!

Mathdino, 91 What made Northsidegal lock-town for you?

________

Going on soon.

So far, despite the amount of the post there were quite little content.

[Mathdino]

Glad you're here, Aneninen.

Always appreciated your playstyle, but GOD do I hope you're not vig this time
I told that game as a legend to some 2017ers as a tale of what town PRs can do sometimes

I'll clarify a couple things.

His 17 was WTF, on the other hand. Since when can an RVS be bad?

I admittedly haven't looked over your meta. Did you vote blind?
And have you ever played with Creature before?

Mathdino's 26 contains too many reads considering it was only early-Page2. Either he was reaction testing or scum trying to take over the town. We'll see, I guess.

Not reaction testing! The only reads I see were Gamma-town and jmo-town, which, if I used just the first two pages as evidence, I stand by.
Feel free to... ask... why I had those reads. If you're so concerned.

Mutantdevle's 32 was terrible. Too concerned about his own joke and tiptoe-ing around a possible wagon on me? Mathdino, did you mean such things in your first post when you had talked about Mutantdevle? Or wait, in 35 you said:

"Edit: Does anyone have scum meta of mutant? That would help here. I have a hunch on how he would behave as scum."

So you know only his townplay?

Yes, he got mislynched in the game I modded, and mis-MyLo-lynched in another game we played together (I died N1). I personally thought he bled town both times. He has a scummy playstyle that I think I have a good track record of reading.
To answer the inevitable, nah, I don't have a read on him yet.

Regarding the vig plan, just decided to look at the setup and go over anything I noticed. I play in the open queue for that exact reason. I like setups.

Mathdino's 63. I still don't get why you wanted a wagon on NSG or me. Reaction tests on us or on the players jumping on?

I thought your vote was bad, or at least bad enough to wagon. NSG I wanted to quicksort.

Mathdino's 74:

"We're talking about mutantdevle. No one else comment on this convo, thanks."

I don't see how that kind of attitude helps town. (Side-note. If both him and Jaydragonking are scum, we'll have a hard time.) In general, Mathdino and Jaydragonking was posting a lot around that time... but with little useful content.

I agree none of that content was useful. Keep reading, you'll see why I did all of that.
Tbh with you I wasn't actually reading or parsing his posts at the time. Was looking for very particular reactions.

Nothing else in your post stands out as comment-worthy, so I'll wait for your catchup to realtimetalk.

[Aneninen]

Going on.

The Mathdino-Northsidegal 101–102 was weird. Why those names? And what sort of answer was that?

"everyone there is null right now with the caveat that i'm pretty confident that the bottom two will be easy to sort as this day progresses."

Almost50, what was the point of your 103?

Jmo16mla's 110

"Hey, at least we are getting someone to L-1 and we aren't stagnant anymore!"

– that's a terrible idea. Oh wait, it is a good idea for scum who want to rolefish.

Pinturicchio's 112 looked like a genuine newer player post. But, that's something that scum could easily emulate. We should make him talk more to sort him out. (Assuming he's a relatively new player.) 172 felt town.

Jmo16mla's 116

"I hate RVS with a passion and pressuring just about everything out of the gate seems to help get the game off the ground. Hence me wagoning creature and then trying to get one on you."

just one question. Why Creature?

And Jaydragonking was fluffing again in 122.

Luca's 127 felt town. Also, for his 134. Yes, I've seen many scum pushing wagons on relatively passive players. I did that many times, too. Erm... and I've just found Jaydragonking's 148... (Although I don't think MsLookHowSuperbIAm would have such an obvious scumplay.)

Mathdino's 137

"Luca do me a favour and stop interrogating jmo for now, talk about something else"

Why?

I don't think you're right in 158, Mathdino. Even if it took place years ago, as far as I can remember, Luca's scumplay was very different. I can't explain it why, but he was "under the radar" and he didn't stand out for me as someone picking up fights. However, if there's someone I didn't like about Luca

here

, it's his instant OMGUS-vote.
(Now, I'm skipping the rest of this fight. I may return to it later. But I don't think Luca's scum and I'm unsure about Mathdino. But I wouldn't lynch him on Day1. He's worth a lot as town and if he's scum we'll have ample time to figure that out later. I know this whole part in the brackets sounds lame. But I don't care shyt.)

Mutantdevle's 167:

"Btw, does anyone know if it's Anen's meta to lurk?"

Oh My Gods. A whole day or something like that without my posts. Terrible! But...

"So I'm going to take up Math's offer of mini-waggoning them so that they start posting."

At that time he wasn't voting for me! Are you afraid of launching a wagon on me without help?

[Mathdino]

Mathdino's 137 "Luca do me a favour and stop interrogating jmo for now, talk about something else" Why?

I don't think you're right in 158, Mathdino. Even if it took place years ago, as far as I can remember, Luca's scumplay was very different. I can't explain it why, but he was "under the radar" and he didn't stand out for me as someone picking up fights. However, if there's someone I didn't like about Luca here, it's his instant OMGUS-vote.
(Now, I'm skipping the rest of this fight. I may return to it later. But I don't think Luca's scum and I'm unsure about Mathdino. But I wouldn't lynch him on Day1. He's worth a lot as town and if he's scum we'll have ample time to figure that out later. I know this whole part in the brackets sounds lame. But I don't care shyt.)

1. I felt like it got to the point where Luca asking what I considered to be leading questions was leading to NAI answers from jmo, and clogging up the thread with relatively unreadable tunneling on Luca's part.
I wanted to get a read on Luca because I was picking up a scumread there, but first I wanted to get his thoughts on others.

2. Good to know, thanks. Do you know his townplay? Because if he's also inconsistent with his behaviour in towngames, we might not be able to read him on meta.

[Aneninen]

Always appreciated your playstyle, but GOD do I hope you're not vig this time

Obviously, I'm not answering this. But you must admit that my Vig-play makes the game more exciting. I mean, if the town's winning I make the game more balanced...

I admittedly haven't looked over your meta. Did you vote blind?

Yes. I usually do so. Once I get wagoned because I had my RVS on Page5 or something like that. (I don't remember the game, though.)

And have you ever played with Creature before?

Not answering this.
However, where is he now?

Feel free to... ask... why I had those reads.

So, why were Gamma and Jmo town? Have those reads changed?

Yes, he got mislynched in the game I modded, and mis-MyLo-lynched in another game we played together (I died N1). I personally thought he bled town both times. He has a scummy playstyle that I think I have a good track record of reading.

Then I give him a free pass for

Today

. (Yes, I was scumreading him.)

I thought your vote was bad, or at least bad enough to wagon. NSG I wanted to quicksort.

First part: okay.
Second part: you concluded that he was town. Why? I think the opposite.

1. I felt like it got to the point where Luca asking what I considered to be leading questions was leading to NAI answers from jmo, and clogging up the thread with relatively unreadable tunneling on Luca's part.
I wanted to get a read on Luca because I was picking up a scumread there, but first I wanted to get his thoughts on others.

2. Good to know, thanks. Do you know his townplay? Because if he's also inconsistent with his behaviour in towngames, we might not be able to read him on meta.

1. So, does it boil down to (1) making something out of nothing and (2) ignoring everyone else?
2. Sorry, I don't remember his townplay. I remember playing with town-Luca, but that's all. Maybe I got lynched early. Or maybe I was scum. Luca? Can you help me out?

[Mathdino]

I trust that you voted blind then. I don't trust your alignment yet but I relinquish my page 1 scumread.

Creature is specifically a bad vote because he's incredibly easy to sort as the game goes on; basically everyone who's played 2 games with him is relatively aware of this. As scum, he gets lynched sooner or later. I see RVS wagons as a way to try and quicksort people with the flurry of initial activity, so I felt going for Creature was low utility.

After complaining about Creature being a bad vote (and making a clearly serious vote on you for it), I didn't feel like Gamma-scum or jmo-scum would blatantly go against that, given that I had literally just set myself up to be all town leadery. Hence, town.
I'm gonna wait for more shit to happen before I lock all my reads. I almost have reads on them but I'm not ready for presentation

Re: NSG: I don't wanna hard-defend her until she gets back and defends herself. But yeah, I'll be hard-defending her if it gets to that.

Re: Luca: That ping when I said "There's scum in {jmo, Luca}" boiled down to those 2 points, yes, with the additional gutread of predatory interrogation. "Gotcha" scumhunting, basically. Either anti-town or scum, in my experience. Then Luca asked me to explain that more, so I did the lolcase and found that every single post boiled down to one of those 3 things.

[RedFlavor]

VC 1.03

Creature(3):

Aneninen 16, Gamma Emerald 18, jmo16mla 85

Gamma Emerald(1):

pinturicchio 22

jmo16mla(2):

northsidegal 94, TheGoldenParadox 105

Aneninen(2):

JaydragonKing 148, mutantdevle 167

Mathdino(1):

Luca Blight 159

Luca Blight(1):

Mathdino 166

Not Voting:

Almost50, Creature

With 12 players alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.

Day one ends Tuesday, March 13th at 1.20pm UTC or in (expired on 2018-03-13 16:20:00)

Mod Notes: I have been told not to modkill people for not having fun, so I will find another way.

[Aneninen]

Quick Readlist.

town

Luca (explained above)
Pinturicchio (new-player town vibes, explained above)

lean town

Mathdino (his late-questions made him look better)

null or unsorted

(These don't mean the same!)
Creature (no content)
GoldenParadox (is he in the game?)
Mutantdevle (According to Mathdino my scumread on him may be wrong)

lean scum

JayDragonKing (too much fluff, too little content)
Almost50 (too little content but that doesn't match the town-meta I know.)
Gamma (little content but see what I brought up)
Jmo16Mla (see my posts, nothing big but plenty of concerning bits.)

scum

Northsidegal (explained above.)

________

I know I have too many scumreads and too few townreads. For your information, these lists are sort of self-reminders.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Northsidegal

________

Post-edit.

I've read your latest, Mathdino. See your point as for your early-townreads.
I'll think about that later. I mean, your Luca-read. Your NSG-read haven't been explained yet.

[mutantdevle]

Mutantdevle's 167: "Btw, does anyone know if it's Anen's meta to lurk?" Oh My Gods. A whole day or something like that without my posts. Terrible! But... "So I'm going to take up Math's offer of mini-waggoning them so that they start posting." At that time he wasn't voting for me! Are you afraid of launching a wagon on me without help?

This almost makes me not want to unvote. But I guess being cranky isn't a scum tell.
UNVOTE:

"So I'm going to take up Math's offer of mini-waggoning them so that they start posting."
Was clearly a reference to 26.
And claiming I was afraid of wagoning you without help is just a stupid comment since I never said I was scum reading you. My vote was clearly for lack of activity.


Also Jay tends to have a fair bit of fluff in their posts, my understanding is that it's not AI for them.

He has a scummy playstyle

I wouldn't say my playstyle is scummy, just that I don't conform to site (or mafia in general) meta. I usually look more and more townie the further into a game I live.

[jmo16mla]

Jmo16mla's 110 "Hey, at least we are getting someone to L-1 and we aren't stagnant anymore!" – that's a terrible idea. Oh wait, it is a good idea for scum who want to rolefish.

I already explained this was to get discussion. No one was at L-1 and it was not going to get to L-1.... as scum, I would just be like let's get everyone to L-1 so they can claim? Also, in b4 wifom. That just doesn't make any sense for scum to do at the beginning of day one.

I'm on my phone so I'm not replying to everything, but I'll see what I can do.

[Aneninen]

I never said I was scum reading you. My vote was clearly for lack of activity.

Shouldn't you vote for a

scumread

then?

Also Jay tends to have a fair bit of fluff in their posts, my understanding is that it's not AI for them.

I've never played with her, which might be a disadvantage for me at reading her.
However, if she's

half

as great as she keeps admitting it, she

definitely

should do more scumhunting and less fluff. (I know I'm also called a fluffy one many times. But I've never said that I'm an exceptional player.)

I wouldn't say my playstyle is scummy, just that I don't conform to site (or mafia in general) meta. I usually look more and more townie the further into a game I live.

I remember reading this a couple of times before. From scum.

as scum, I would just be like let's get everyone to L-1 so they can claim? Also, in b4 wifom. That just doesn't make any sense for scum to do at the beginning of day one.

I've seen that happening before. Although, not as blatantly presented. You're right in that bit.

[Mathdino]

The reason you're getting the cock vibe from Jay is precisely because of his undefeated record as scum. That doesn't, however, encapsulate his town game.

The way I would better put it is "the longer Jay lives, the more likely scum is to win"

[Mathdino]

the cockY vibe from Jay

Autocorrect

[Aneninen]

The reason you're getting the cock vibe from Jay is precisely because of his undefeated record as scum. That doesn't, however, encapsulate his town game.

But does she fluff that much and produce that little content as town?

[Mathdino]

Yes.

[JaydragonKing]

The reason you're getting the cock vibe from Jay is precisely because of his undefeated record as scum. That doesn't, however, encapsulate his town game.

But does she fluff that much and produce that little content as town?

I do the same thing as either alignment. It's kinda how I've won my scum games. Can't really point you to my town tells because I'm still not really aware of them myself with how little experience I have as town in comparison to scum.

My first and currently only victory as town happened because I avoided being Lynched by fake claiming Vigilante to stop myself from being lynched day one and then taking the Nightkill from the Mafia instead of someone more valuable then me to succeed.

[Creature]

Sure let's try this:

VOTE: northsidegal

[Aneninen]

Okay.
After this post it's clearer now, but I still don't want to townread you right now because of (ongoing game reasons, sorry).

[Aneninen]

Shyt, that was obviously for Jaydragonking.
I'm exhausted IRL.

[Mathdino]

what a meme it is to have jay, aneninen, paradox, and almost50 all in the same game

jay lemme tell you about the time paradox claimed babysitter and unironically calmly self-hammered, thinking it was the town thing to do

Edit: I in no way advocate for townreading Jay, lol.

[Luca Blight]

@Anen

- I vaguely remember playing with you when I was Town and you were scum before my hiatus from the site. I don't recall myself playing as scum against you, however?

I'm not big on meta, personally. I don't like to over-rely on it to read players, nor do I feel it's effective in reading me as I like to play differently every game regardless of alignment. I also feel Mafia as a whole is more fun when played purely, without judging players based on stuff that occurred elsewhere.

The only times I use meta is if I feel something strongly that can only be proven in such a way, particularly if I need to convince others of a scumread. A good example of this is UCV - in three separate games I've played him with him being scum and myself Town, and I've caught him in every one. In the first one he evaded lynch despite my efforts, but in the two subsequent scum games of his I successfully got him lynched based mainly on meta.

Anyway, I'm still feeling pretty good about my two scum reads but I'll assess the other players in the game shortly.

[Luca Blight]

I forgot to add - the reason I used meta in those instances was because UCV's scum game was so obvious to me at the time that I was 99% sure of him being scum in each instance. It's rare players are so unaware of their own playstyle that it stands out to such an extent, but that was true of UCV at the time.

Math here, incidentally, is clearly hyper-aware of his meta and how others might perceive him, which means it should be disregarded altogether imo.

[Mathdino]

Math here, incidentally, is clearly hyper-aware of his meta and how others might perceive him, which means it should be disregarded altogether imo.

Okay so the random shading is getting to the point of literal lying.

So yeah that's uncool.

I'm aware of how other games have gone, and I remember the players who caught or didn't catch me as scum.

That doesn't mean I'm hyper-aware of my meta, and even if I were that aware, that doesn't make it useless by any means. A lot of fantastic players on this site are primarily catchable by meta, despite being super aware of their own meta. Meta is an underrated tool.
The main reason I've held the opinion that games where all the players know each other are great for town is because an open I was in got cancelled a while into the game and rerun. We got 3 scum in 3 days because everyone was able to read each other.

Point is, I think I could spot my own scumgame, and I do think I have scumtells (although I haven't pinpointed them, sadly), and that doesn't help me at all. There've been times where I sit back after scumposts and realise just how much I'm not playing to my town meta... and continue this course.

There are also a few things that I think I'd be straight up incapable of faking as scum until I get more scum experience and comfort. But I'm not going there, lol.