Open 714: Tit for Tat [Game Over]

[Mathdino]

fuck i'm not pagebottoming this

Why I Have Thought NSG Is Scum

You're gonna hate this if you're not into gambits

Basically, the earlier I can sort NSG, the more comfortable I'll feel about the gamestate. Probably the greatest balance between "player I can respect" and "player I won't get paranoid of".

This is basically what's motivated my play so far. If I can sort the obvious people, I'm good. That said, I didn't wanna just try to pressure NSG into activity or try to gutread her off awkwardness.

HOT TAKE: NSG is locktown. Good to know, moving on then.

So this was a straight up lie. I at no point thought this.

I trust NSG on this I think.
VOTE: jmo

This was also a lie. I was townreading jmo through the whole game.

My thesis was this:

I wanted to act exactly like how NSG is paranoid of my scumgame. I've played scum with her twice. Both times, a primary theme was that I was trying too hard to townread and thus pocket her.
My thought was that by immediately calling her locktown and fanning her wagon, she would get paranoid and ask why the fuck I was locktowning her from like 3 posts.

Hey NSG, can I get basic reads on:
Jay
Mathdino
Creats
mutant

This was a veiled way to ask for a read on me. I didn't give a shit about a Jayread at this time.

It was also about post 88. I've read NSG's scumgames, and she's nowhere near as awkward this game.

The initial posts were weird but those couple posts she made were pretty insightful and seemed like questions that could make people rethink things, which is what I expect from town-NSG more than anything.

Your posts basically lead you to scumread people and leave it at that. I can list about 10 questions in your ISO that there's really no good response to. In my experience, questions like that are either busywork or theatre, both from scum.

Luca got me involved in a whole other issue. People asked me why the hell I had NSG as locktown, so I made up an explanation. This also serves as a breadcrumb. The following post is from RC's Anything uPick, in which I locktowned NSG and she got paranoid:

i'd say my play so far has been entirely consistent with my scumgame. i would expect anyone familiar with my meta to scumread me so far, actually. what're you basing your comparison on?

The scumgame you linked me in sitechat the other day. You're

nowhere near as awkward

.

Initial

"?"

posts

made me think "Ok NSG is aware her scumgame is awkward and is trying to avoid that". But there were a

couple posts you made

that actually made me somewhat

rethink things

and be like "huh, wow, weirdly good thinking" and that's

what I expect from town-NSG more than anything

.

Lemme know if you want quotes.

I literally copy-pasted this explanation from my scumgame because:
1. I wanted to make it clear later on that I was literally mimicking my scumgame as much as possible here. Breadcrumb.
2. I wanted to see if this would gutping NSG like it did back then.

NSG, rather than (justified) paranoia of me townbinning her, instead glossed over the townreads on her, went inactive (while site active, which makes me think she allowed herself to be townread), and instead is assuming that I'm activity telling her (I'm not), and going after me in response, which strikes me as not how she would genuinely respond to this scumread.

@NSG:

Benefit of the doubt here. Why did you not seem to give a shit that I was locktowning you early on?

tl;dr @All:

I never actually townread NSG, I wanted to purposefully act like I was pocketing her and see if she noticed.

[northsidegal]

i will never understand the mentality of voting of wagoning people who haven't posted in a while. unless you have reason to believe that they're active lurking (ie looking at the thread but not posting), it's likely not going to make the person post any sooner. there's the argument that it "puts pressure" on people for when they come back, but wouldn't you gain a more natural read from people by simply observing what they do when not under pressure? like, people sheeping onto a "pressure" wagon provides an avenue for scum to engage with the game in a very easy way – they don't really have to come up with anything of their own, they can just respond to the pressure on them. i'd also think that, even if the pressure wagon

was

on scum, it would be less likely to get scum lynched – people might be inclined to unvote after the person comes back, because afterall they were only on the wagon for pressure in the first place.

pedit – let's see here.

[northsidegal]

@NSG: Benefit of the doubt here. Why did you not seem to give a shit that I was locktowning you early on?

because i believe that

you

believe that you can read me based off of three posts. yeah, of course i saw the similarity to anything upick – the thing is, i expect you to do the same thing as town. so... it didn't really factor into my read of you at all.

[northsidegal]

like, it's really as simple as that i think

you

think you can read me from three posts. i know that RC thinks that. so it wasn't really anything out of the ordinary? i also don't really feel like my play was anything out of the ordinary like it was in anything upick where there was a disconnect between

my own meta read of myself

based off of a few posts and what you were saying.

[Mathdino]

I don't think I've ever pulled something like that as town, though. In Marked For Death, I locktowned you because you overtly/cheekily reaction tested me in a way that I thought helped the gamestate. All the other completed games in which I've tried to read you specifically as town off three posts were scumgames.

I'll reevaluate your ISO/your play as time goes on and get back to you.

In the meantime:
- Gonna need scumreads from you. You're town, I'm town, who scum?
- Is Creature playing his scumgame, or is he just wrong town here?

[northsidegal]

NSG, rather than (justified) paranoia of me townbinning her, instead glossed over the townreads on her, went inactive (while site active, which makes me think she allowed herself to be townread), and instead is assuming that I'm activity telling her (I'm not), and going after me in response, which strikes me as not how she would genuinely respond to this scumread.

like i said, in anything upick i think my reaction made sense. here, i would expect what you did from either alignment. i also wasn't really that site active during this time?

i'm also not going after you – quote where you think that is, because if you're thinking of what i think you're thinking of, just wait for my explanation on that.

[northsidegal]

I don't think I've ever pulled something like that as town, though. In Marked For Death, I locktowned you because you overtly/cheekily reaction tested me in a way that I thought helped the gamestate. All the other completed games in which I've tried to read you specifically as town off three posts were scumgames.

I'll reevaluate your ISO/your play as time goes on and get back to you.

i mean, i guess you've never really done it as town but that doesn't change that i believe (or at least, believed) that you would. also,

According to the site rules I may not explain this.

---

In the meantime:
- Gonna need scumreads from you. You're town, I'm town, who scum?
- Is Creature playing his scumgame, or is he just wrong town here?

– not really feeling anyone as overtly scummy so far.

i don't actually feel like creature has obvtowned yet but that would mean that he's putting in far more effort than usual as scum, i think. if he is scum, i'd think that almost certainly points to a scumteam that's aware of his meta and talked pregame specifically making a specific effort for him to try to subvert it.

[Mathdino]

@Everyone voting me – please inform me of what your mathdino read is. Doesn't have to be detailed, you can condense it to a few words, even.

I think I misread a few things while I skimmed the catchup (I was rushing so I could drop that). M'bad, this post is the best I got. Realised that the others weren't about going after me and were instead criticising my play, and I mixed you up with the ones who did retaliatorily wagon me.

So what's pretty obvious here is that either NSG is scum with one of the people pushing back against this wagon (or pushing for a wagon on me over town-Creature (afraid to push town-Creature)) or that NSG is town... and honestly scum could still be pushing back against me.

Not totally sure what to do here.

[northsidegal]

right, so you were thinking of what i thought you were thinking of. i will say that that question is less about you than everyone else.

why do you think, going off of me being town, scum would be pushing back against you?

[Mathdino]

Domineering playstyle, get towncred for going after me and defending poor NSG and Creature after you guys obvtown yourselves.

My town-inconsistencies are an easy thing for people to hop on, and it's easy to hide behind that kind of logic because town is bad at spotting reaction tests (and people like to policy lynch gambiters).

[Luca Blight]

Reaction tests are pretty easy to spot (and are worthless) when you disclose in advance that it's a reaction test.

You've contradicted yourself again in the post above - you lock Paradox as Town because as scum he wouldn't dare attempt to get you mislynched, but now you're saying scum could be going after you for the towncred.

In 557 you also say scum would be more scared of pushing town-Creature over Town-you, which also doesn't align with your earlier bravado.

[Mathdino]

I didn't disclose that it was a reaction test at all. I breadcrumbed the test when I was 80% of my way into it. The reaction test was literally saying "HOT TAKE: NSG is locktown" and seeing what NSG would do in response to me playing a caricature of my scumself.

Paradox knows me and knows the difficulty in getting me lynched. You don't. Read context, I've explained both of these sufficiently for you to get it already.

What doesn't align with what bravado? I've pointed out a bunch of cases where I was townreading people who hopped on the Creature wagon for precisely that logic. Gamma in particular.

[Mathdino]

Ohh, I got it, you think I'm being arbitrary with who I think would push me as what alignment.

It's a case by case basis. I think Paradox in particular is a person who would be scared to push me as scum, after I already claimed I would explain the inconsistencies in full.

Most of the rest of the people who've pushed me I don't think would be scared here, especially the people who know that Creature is gonna obvtown himself (which could easily have been discussed in the PT beforehand).

[Luca Blight]

I didn't disclose that it was a reaction test at all. I breadcrumbed the test when I was 80% of my way into it. The reaction test was literally saying "HOT TAKE: NSG is locktown" and seeing what NSG would do in response to me playing a caricature of my scumself.

Paradox knows me and knows the difficulty in getting me lynched. You don't. Read context, I've explained both of these sufficiently for you to get it already.

What doesn't align with what bravado? I've pointed out a bunch of cases where I was townreading people who hopped on the Creature wagon for precisely that logic. Gamma in particular.

1) You also voted her as a reaction test, which you let known at the time. To be honest the entire gambit falls flat due to NSG not being active - you should have at least waited for her to return and catch-up before reversing your read on her.

2) You misunderstood, I'm not talking about me. Read my second line again carefully.

3) My point was that you say scum would be more scared to target scum-Creature than scum-you, but earlier you made out as though town-you is scum's worst nightmare.

[Luca Blight]

3) town-creature than town-you*

[Mathdino]

Votecount 1.2

northsidegal(2)

~ Creature(50), Mathdino(115)

Mathdino(2)

~ Luca Blight(64), TheGoldenParadox(23)

Creature(2)

~ Gamma Emerald(97), JaydragonKing(46)

jmo16mla(1)

~ northsidegal(29)

Gamma Emerald(1)

~ jmo16mla(44)

Not Voting (4): Almost50(20), Pinturicchio(15), Aneninen(16), mutantdevle(28)

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2018-03-13 13:20:00)

This is a very bad votecount. Seems entirely plausible that all 3 top wagons are on town.

I also overestimated the number of people actually pushing me because Luca decided to spend an entire page or two nitpicking my posts.

Creature vote was fine, his and my read of early NSG was aligned, I can plausibly see Creature with that read.
Luca push on me is still bad, Paradox townread holds.
Gamma continuing to vote Creature despite townreading him is probably a fluke. Jay hopping on Creature seems weird, idk how to read that.

VOTE: Luca
While I debate what to do with NSG in my head/with Creats.

[Luca Blight]

You never explained why you knowingly misrepped me and twisted my words in our earlier 1v1?

[Luca Blight]

And I wasn't 'nitpicking' - I was catching up on the game and those were my thoughts. You just ignore every point I make against you anyway.

[Mathdino]

1) You also voted her as a reaction test, which you let known at the time. To be honest the entire gambit falls flat due to NSG not being active - you should have at least waited for her to return and catch-up before reversing your read on her.

2) You misunderstood, I'm not talking about me. Read my second line again carefully.

3) My point was that you say scum would be more scared to target town-Creature than town-you, but earlier you made out as though town-you is scum's worst nightmare.

1. It was a "NSG can you figure out my puzzle", a puzzle that I figured only town-NSG would be able to solve. I believed that town-NSG would be the only one to notice me locktowning her as suspicious, while scum-NSG would coast on it.
The reaction was whether or not she figured it out. In that case, disclosing that it was a reaction test doesn't help scum-NSG; she still didn't figure out the puzzle.
I sped up the process due to the slowness of the day, the fact that I knew NSG was posting elsewhere, and the fact that 5 people were all waiting on me explaining wtf was up with my read progression on NSG and jmo (those were the only fake reads).

2. I'm talking about you. There are 2 people going after me, you and Paradox. I overestimated and thought there were more. Paradox I'm townreading, he knows better as scum than to do this. You I'm scumreading.

3. I understand. More broadly, my assumption is that people who have seen me play a full towngame would know that I can easily powerlynch scum, and it's much better to just kill me off at night.
You have not seen my game, and I can threaten you all I want, but it doesn't change the fact that you haven't seen it, and you also don't read like someone who would be scared of pushing a strong player as scum.

[Mathdino]

You never explained why you knowingly misrepped me and twisted my words in our earlier 1v1?

Why should I respond to that?

People agreed with me on that, dude. No one came out of that thinking "Oh wow Mathdino sure did misrep Luca, his interpretation of Luca is shit and Luca has a point".

If someone else asked me about it, sure I'll go over it, but you already come across as a player who has an issue with basically every reason to scumread you, so I'm not gonna prolong this 1v1 and fill up more pages that people aren't reading anyway.

My response is basically "No I didn't". If anyone is concerned about it, they can take a look.

[Luca Blight]

People agreed with you? I think only Pin commented on that specific thing, from what I remembered.

As I said already (but you conveniently ignore), I actually expect a bit of suspicion towards me based on how I've played so far. I only counter the bullshit reasons for scumreading me.

[Luca Blight]

Anyway, you definitely

did

misrep me and twist my words, and I will pull it up when I get some time.

[Mathdino]

Gamma agreed, pintu thought the perspective was fair, Creature was scumleaning you. No one else really commented (or maybe they didn't read it).

Look I mainly made that case not because I was trying to wagon you (if I was I wouldn't have used second-person) but because you asked me to elaborate on why I felt a certain way, and I felt obligated to explain my thought process.

I'm not going to keep reiterating all of it because I'm not gonna convince you you're scum. I treat people like they're town when talking to them, and in this case, trying to convince you that the points I made weren't bullshit isn't gonna get me anywhere. THAT is why I've been trying to disengage from this.

If you're town, you're mad biased right now (from your point of view, the things I'm calling scummy just didn't happen, no shit). I'm accusing you of doing things scum would do and you're saying I'M TOWN I DIDN'T DO THAT STUFF. Like, okay, great, but I still think you're scum.

If literally anyone else holds me accountable for the stuff I've said about you, I'll talk it over with them. But talking this over with you over and over every 4 pages doesn't benefit me at all.

[Luca Blight]

Stop it with the mindless capital letter parodies. Nowhere have I ever said anything like 'I'M TOWN I DIDN'T DO THAT STUFF'.

I've been reasonable at every turn, and have shown that this shit about '

predatory questions'

is only the spin you put on the particular questions I have asked, and there is no basis for it. I have given you the opportunity to show exactly how they are predatory rather than genuinely trying to sort people, but you chose to disengage. Others have asked similar questions - I pointed out one Gamma asked me earlier which was would qualify as '

predatory

' by your definition, but again you ignore it.

[Mathdino]

1. No.

2. Of course that's the spin I'm putting on it. Town typically doesn't ask questions with predatory intent. I'm calling into question your motivation behind asking those questions. You, if you're town, are always going to see your own questions as beneficial to the gamestate. I, thinking you're scum, don't think that.
I've explained what I can.

Regarding Gamma, I'm townreading him for other reasons. I'm not some kind of scumhunting robot; I don't use the exact same tells on everyone. Gamma's lines of questioning are consistent with what I know of Gamma.

Lemme put it this way. I, as scum, am perfectly capable of casing/tunneling people.
Basically no one is reading these back-and-forths, and those that are, are supporting me.
Why does scum-me disengage from you when I believe that continued engagement just makes you look worse?
Do you think scum-me knows my points are bad and is purposefully trying to dodge being called out on it?
Hell, more directly -- do you think scum-me is scared of you?