Open 714: Tit for Tat [Game Over]

[Aneninen]

yes, mutant plays kind of contrary to typical site meta. people say that it's a "scummy" style, but i don't really think so – speaking from experience in open 701, he really only did one scummy thing and was obvtown (i felt) for the rest of the game. same with open 711.
can you elaborate on what you don't like about what he said there?

This:

"I'm being criticised for wanting to be different to what's considered normal? Story of my life."

In my mind it gets translated to:

"Just because I look scum that does not mean you should scumread me. Even if I'm scum."

KK. My vote on you was not a serious vote, it was a pressure vote and I said it was serious to get a reaction. I don't believe that NSG is scum here. I do believe math is scum for countless reasons both luca and I have pointed out.

Why do you think NSG is town?

tl;dr @All: I never actually townread NSG, I wanted to purposefully act like I was pocketing her and see if she noticed.

Hm.
I'll read it back later when I have more time.

[Aneninen]

And before anyone points it out: I know I'm below standard now. Even below Aneninen-standard. That happens when I have more things to do than I originally planned. Work from both workplaces has been piling up on me. (And I neeeeeed to play some Pokémon Go later too, because if I don't move my body for a day, I get hysteric. And swimming or exercising is not an option today, unfortunately. And I'm lame. F-ck.)

[Gamma Emerald]

I replied to your case point for point and you dropped it. If you genuinely want to get me lynched perhaps it would be in your interest to try and show why my questions are of a predatory nature, because only Gamma vaguely seems to agree with that and he's in his own world.

I just find it strange how you scumread me based on 1 main thing, yet accept it from others as being town. Like, you're just undermining your own point against me as it's obviously not very AI if people you think are town are doing the same thing.

Scum are wary of 1v1's in general - I'm Town and don't give a f*ck basically. I think you've been all over the place this game and I'm holding you to account for it. As scum I probably wouldn't want this because even if I succeeded in getting you lynched, I wouldn't exactly look good from it.

1. Does it look like I'm pushing you right now? When my vote was on you earlier, my primary project was waiting to get NSG/Creature sorted. I didn't

care

about you, the vote was more symbolic than a "LET'S GET THIS GUY".
and lol I can agree on Gamma being in his own world

2. It's a D1 point and it's what I have to work off of. Others have already dropped other towntells. I can give you some kind of nebulous "yeah but it was the way you did it" or "this just feels like what you'd do as scum" but that wouldn't be very satisfying, right? You haven't dropped any towntells in my book.

3. That doesn't seem right. Lazy-scum are wary of 1v1s. I'm fully aware that 1v1s are detrimental to the gamestate and will at least make a token effort to avoid them as town (or when trying to appear town). Correct scumplay here is to fill up 3 more pages with a back-and-forth and watch your case on me go nowhere (and hell, my case on you might go nowhere too). Increase town apathy, incentivise everyone to just not read it.
I consider your points against me bad, but I also don't consider them threatening enough to actually go and explain things to you, because I think town-you is just being irrational about this. There's always that one player who scumreads me for basically everything I do.

i guess it's luca
jay should just be vigged, we're never getting a wagon on him unless it's policy
and doing that will just fuck up the VCA

tbh i dropped luca into town to try to distance my brain from the "SCREW YOU FOR 1V1ING ME" mindset

and because PoE created a scumpool of {NSG, Creature, Anen, mutant}
but yeah that no longer works

This is just a lie - he said earlier I had enough

'good town points'

. Now it's convenient to scumread me again (perhaps because I'm not active at this point or on his case) he slots straight back into scumreading me again.

Another point Math ignored.

You said I had 'good town points' earlier but never elaborated on them, and apparently you've forgotten that was the reason you stopped scumreading me.

Explain.

When I'm trying to read players I'm in a 1v1 with, I recognise that I'm often flawed and so I end up defaulting to what others that I trust think. I didn't say you had "good town points", I said others had good points on you being potentially town. Specifically Aneninen. Forgot who was the other one.

Creature backing up this read gives me more confidence on the original scumread I had. It has nothing to do with your activity, your activity's fine.

Yeah at this point Math is definitely coming out on top theory-wise, but I'm actually kinda townreading Luca's responses, like I kinda understand how he feels Math is only pressing the one point of "predatory questions"

[Almost50]

- Switch: Vig shoots doctor N1, and shoots nothing but town as the game progresses.

Fitz is not in this game though, so chill.

[Gamma Emerald]

Ok guys, I've tried to be as fast as I can, but this game is much more fast paced that I thought it was. I've been reading though, and I have some thoughts I want to share. I think the best way I can do this post without using a whole page is doing a summary of my reads and then a spoiler with bigger and better explanations.

First of all, my townreads (in this order): Luca, GoldenParadox and Mathdino.

Spoiler: Townreads

I'm now very sure Luca and Mathdino are just obsessed with each other and their 1v1 is more like egos fighting than scumhunting (or townhunting, whatever you like more). Luca is my most townread now because he could have backed off when the 1v1 was over, but he went for it again. Why doing that when there's much more easier targets to mislynch than Dino? And from Dino's perspective, 1v1ing Luca is a bad idea too; Luca's like a bulldog, he bites and doesn't release his prey no matter what. Getting in an argument with him, with how agressive and persuasive he is, is certainly a bad idea as scum, unless he really loves smelling his own farts and think he can get towncred by "winning" the 1v1, which is a possibility, but when Luca flips green (if), that towncred would do a 180 turn. I'm only giving less towncred to Dino because of the possibility of trying to be the townleader as scum, something I try to do when I play IRL, but he's nowhere near in my suspects radar. PARANOIA MODE ON: if Luca and Dino are both scum and they are trying to put themselves against each other as antagonists, I already lost this game. PARANOIA MODE OFF.
tl;dr: this 1v1 reminds me a lot of Death Note; you just want to be right for the sake of it. The difference is that this is not a Light Yagami vs L, but an L vs L, which would be an interesting anime if you ask me.

About GoldenParadox: something I noted from our last game where he was scum is that he reacts very poorly to pressure and being scumread, and he also tried to mislead town with a lot of going all over the place. Here's different: much more measured reads, and he's criticizing Dino for something he did a lot in that game (Newbie 1849). "Hey, I do tend to be flip floppy when I'm scum, and Dino is being flip floppy... Maybe he's scum!". It's not uncommon to do that reasoning, even if it's bad reasoning. Also, Golden is the only player I have read in many other games, and if I remember correctly, I always got his alignment right except for one time where he fakeclaimed being VT. He's not a good scumplayer; at this point of the game I would already noticed something weird, but there's nothing I find scummy in him. He's behind Luca only because I need more posting from him to be completely sure.

Townleans: NSG, Jay and Creature (in this order, too).

Spoiler: Townleans

I need more content from NSG to sort her out, but I'm giving her towncred for her reaction to her wagon, specifically to her confrontation with Dino. NSG not posting doesn't tell me anything bad about her; on the contrary, if she was scum, she would be worried being in the same game with Dino, knowing that he would possibly go over her to sort her at the beginning of the game. Between "I don't want to be sorted by Dino, I will just lay down and wait to see what happens" and "I'm busy", I'm inclined to believe the latter than the former.

My townlean on Jay is abstolutely a gut read and because of the reads on her of more experienced players than me. I think she hasn't contributed a lot, BUT her lynchpool post in 312 seems thoughtful and real.

I have two main reasons to believe Creature is town, but both aren't good enough to townread him and I'm not trusting myself in this: first, a lot of players have said he is a bad scum player, so the louder players (like Dino) would have sorted him out at this point of the game or at least begin pushing him. I know Dino wanted to do a NSG vs Creature wagons, but he pushed NSG instead of Creature and he hasn't gone over Creature even when he came back with a lot of content; the second reason is a longshot and I preffer not to discuss it for now.

Nulls: jmo, Almost50 and Aneninen (again, in that order).

Spoiler: Nulls

I had to ISO jmo to remember why I gutread him as scum, and he got out of that read with two posts: 240 and 253. I can't see scum motivation to explain why two players can't be on the same team, and his push on Gamma seemed real. The problem is, he hasn't given much more content, and he could be fencing now that "loud" players are townreading him, but he's closer to a townlean right now. Almost too troll to read, I don't know his meta so there isn't much content to know what he's going for. Aneninen, on the other hand: I really don't like his playstyle; I've seen other players doing what he's doing and I always gutfeel they're scum. He makes long posts with a lot of doubt of everyone else's posts, but doesn't really engage with anyone, even when he has a lot of scumleans and scumreads. Feel like he makes a lot of content but not trying to solve the game. BUT, as I said, I always think this is scummy, and I've read games where I was really wrong about this type of players, so I think I'm a little biased.

Scumlean: mutant.

Spoiler: mutant

His "I don't conform to site meta. I usually look more an more townie" still seems scummy to me. I agree with Creature saying he seems fence sitting, his posts aren't that thoughtful, and saying he's interested in jumping on NSG wagon without really doing it was weird as hell. There's only one reason I'm not scumreading him: I feel like his reads are outdated, so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt until I see where is he now.

Scumread: Gamma.

Spoiler: Gamma

I have to talk about myself first to explain this: If I were someone else, I would be at least nullreading myself for how I have played at this point. I'm lurking a lot, have some awkward posts, tend to post only if I'm being alluded, and this is completely different to my playstyle in Newbie 1849: there, I was giving thoughtful reads, catching up every time I could, going all over the place and, in summary, helping to solve the game. Because of this, I expected at least a call for attention from Gamma, but he instead went to defend me telling everyone I'm new to the site and shouldn't be pushed if I'm inconsistent or not being gamesolvey. I felt pocketed, as he pocketing the newbie who said some posts ago that was having trouble with his reads and would "follow the leader" if necessary. Pocketing a newbie seems an easy task, and implies having two votes instead of one when an important decision must be done.

I'm doing this long post mostly because I fell behind this game as there has been a lot of meta readings and strategy aroun this kind of reads, so there's nothing much I could talk about during those conversations. With this, I'm expecting to be engaged so I can contribute with more content and help everyone sort me and help me sorting everyone.

I can understand these. I don't recall saying "don't push pin if he's not consistent" or w/e. But otherwise the thoughts on me seem fair. However, I've not been reading him on pure meta but mostly on intent. It feels like his intent is towny. As such I haven't been paying attention to meta.
Is this clear as to what determined my Pin read?

[Gamma Emerald]

Because he's looking like he's trying to discredit

Although my scumread on went away yesterday, I'm still asking it: where?

I answered this already. The same post by you where I took issue with your analysis of my 58+60 I felt had too little town-tells spotted, I felt like you were not really trying to townhunt which felt scummy.

[Gamma Emerald]

I dislike disagreeing with Creature but the only towntell I have from Gamma this whole game was that he went after Creature at a point where I don't think scum would or should.

Going over his ISO, I'm seeing a lot of posting that feels like busywork, and I'm also seeing the patterns pintu is suggesting.

Hate to sheep the guy Creats is voting, but this feels right:
VOTE: Gamma

Does anyone think pintu and Luca are scum together?

If not, and if pintu is scum, he's alignment informed and Luca is town (hence pushing me/Luca apart for the towncred).

@pintu: Counterpoint to your Math/Luca reads: If I were scum, filling up pages of 1v1 with Luca benefits me in this situation, because I would win the 1v1 and it would make everyone else apathetic and unwilling to read it. I don't think that logic really works.
And the ironic thing is that you're townreading me for engaging Luca while Luca is scumreading me for repeatedly trying to disengage from him

Wait what the fuck? Why the read change? This feels strange

[Mathdino]

Wait what the fuck? Why the read change? This feels strange

It feels strange cuz it's on you.

Read change was predicated by:

- I'm running out of scumreads; if Creature and NSG are both town (not sure on NSG but I'm waiting on some meta for her), and if Luca is town as everyone seems to think, fuck all my scumreads, I'm not scumreading Aneninen or pintu, so I was looking at the options at hand.

- I never ISO'd you before. Just did, am scumreading the content.

- I was only townreading you for the Creature votes, which seemed genuine.

Like I can go through your 100 post ISO but then this is gonna be a repeat of me vs Luca.

[Luca Blight]

I dislike disagreeing with Creature but the only towntell I have from Gamma this whole game was that he went after Creature at a point where I don't think scum would or should.

Going over his ISO, I'm seeing a lot of posting that feels like busywork, and I'm also seeing the patterns pintu is suggesting.

Hate to sheep the guy Creats is voting, but this feels right:
VOTE: Gamma

Does anyone think pintu and Luca are scum together?

If not, and if pintu is scum, he's alignment informed and Luca is town (hence pushing me/Luca apart for the towncred).

@pintu: Counterpoint to your Math/Luca reads: If I were scum, filling up pages of 1v1 with Luca benefits me in this situation, because I would win the 1v1 and it would make everyone else apathetic and unwilling to read it. I don't think that logic really works.
And the ironic thing is that you're townreading me for engaging Luca while Luca is scumreading me for repeatedly trying to disengage from him

Would you stop brown-nosing Creature already? Even if he had decent reads in past games, it seems ludicrous how much stock you're putting into his reads that have been for the most part unexplained.

Perhaps you should explain more about your towntell on Gamma? Why have you suddenly gone 180 on that read? Dare I say, this sudden shift feels

predatory

to me.

The timing of your Luca/Pintu scumteam question is weird - you sheep Pintu's view on Gamma, then in the following sentence throw a bit of shade on him.

Last paragraph - your arrogance really isn't an endearing quality. Your case on me was complete shit and I countered it completely. How can you say you would have won the 1v1 when this was the case and you had nothing to say back? I'm also

not

scumreading you for disengaging with me.

[TheGoldenParadox]

Aninen what team are you on? VALOR ROCKS Anen is obvtown cause he plays Pokemon Go.(joking)

Actually, tbh, i agree with Pin's reasoning. Gamma seems too much like he's pocketing a newbie who is (honestly) much better at the game than I am, even though I've played at least 8 or 9 games. Dino seems like he's pocketing me, and then WIFOMing it to make me think it'd be stupid for him to pocket me twice in a row. If both those pockets worked, and Gamma and Dino are scum, scum would have 5 votes on their side d1. That's a very powerful advantage for scum to have here, and for that reason, I'm definitely scumreading both of them
One thing I'm thinking; has anyone seen any association tells from either of them? I feel their interactions are sorta awkward but I can't explain why.

Pedit: this seems somewhat like a 180 on a scumpartner, does anyone feel the same or am I just biased here?
Ppedit: I agree with Luca that Math didn't "win" the 1v1. I want Dino to explain PbP his read on Luca.
Is a math/luca/gamma scumteam possible?

[TheGoldenParadox]

VOTE: Gamma

[Gamma Emerald]

Wait what the fuck? Why the read change? This feels strange

It feels strange cuz it's on you.

Read change was predicated by:

- I'm running out of scumreads; if Creature and NSG are both town (not sure on NSG but I'm waiting on some meta for her), and if Luca is town as everyone seems to think, fuck all my scumreads, I'm not scumreading Aneninen or pintu, so I was looking at the options at hand.

- I never ISO'd you before. Just did, am scumreading the content.

- I was only townreading you for the Creature votes, which seemed genuine.

Like I can go through your 100 post ISO but then this is gonna be a repeat of me vs Luca.

Okay there was a process and you didn't state it, makes sense now

[Gamma Emerald]

Is a math/luca/gamma scumteam possible?

If you have your head up your ass, yes. Math+Luca along with Me+Luca have been fighting it out for quite some time. Do you really think that's all theatre?

[Luca Blight]

Wait what the fuck? Why the read change? This feels strange

and if Luca is town as everyone seems to think

Since when did everyone think I was Town?

Even if that were the case, since when is that a valid reason to abandon your scumread?

Do you really not acknowledge any reasons that I may be town, independent from what anyone else says?

[JaydragonKing]

Spoiler: Reaction to everything right now

[Mathdino]

Would you stop brown-nosing Creature already? Even if he had decent reads in past games, it seems ludicrous how much stock you're putting into his reads that have been for the most part unexplained.

Perhaps you should explain more about your towntell on Gamma? Why have you suddenly gone 180 on that read? Dare I say, this sudden shift feels

predatory

to me.

The timing of your Luca/Pintu scumteam question is weird - you sheep Pintu's view on Gamma, then in the following sentence throw a bit of shade on him.

Last paragraph - your arrogance really isn't an endearing quality. Your case on me was complete shit and I countered it completely. How can you say you would have won the 1v1 when this was the case and you had nothing to say back? I'm also

not

scumreading you for disengaging with me.

Really not selling me on the "team player" aspect.

Creature's primary flaw is that he doesn't push his reads at all and is shit at providing reasons. You're literally telling me "stop trusting Creature's reads just because he won past games with them". What?
If someone has been proven to have great reads, of course I'm going to take them into consideration. Plus, I'm not even following Creature on this one. I just said I felt bad for going against them, but I'm not seeing the game the way he is.

I already explained my townread on Gamma, and I just explained the switch in the post right above yours. It's not a 180; I wasn't hard townreading Gamma before. He was town by one towntell and by PoE.

I'm asking about the Luca/Pintu scumteam possibility because I'm trying to figure out if I can trust Pintu's townread of you. Because I'm trying to sort you.
Like you understand that even when you were my top scumread, I wasn't taking every single post apart and arguing why scum is doing it, right? At this point you're trying to interrogate me for every post when I'm using my own processes to figure things out. Processes you don't seem to really care about or participate in. It's tiring and it's like every post I write requires ANOTHER post to explain the original one. As hard as it may be to believe, my goal isn't to blow up my ISO with constant posting.

Again: Why should I say anything back? How does that help me or anyone? That's just getting locked in a tunnel.

Wait what the fuck? Why the read change? This feels strange

and if Luca is town as everyone seems to think

Since when did everyone think I was Town?

Even if that were the case, since when is that a valid reason to abandon your scumread?

Do you really not acknowledge any reasons that I may be town, independent from what anyone else says?

Gamma and pintu are both townreading your reactions to my read on you. Either one of them is defending you, their scumbuddy, or I'm willing to trust them on this.

It's a valid reason because I'm not a fucking scumhunting god.

I'm not going to listen to reasons you're town coming from YOU. I don't give a shit about people's defences, scum will always say whatever it takes to be townread. I need input from others to be a functional scumhunter. I'm a social player.

[Almost50]

VOTE: Anen

Better than sitting on a vanity wagon.

@Math: How do you feel about a Vig on either Pintu/TGP? I'll even toss in Luca as a third option for your amusement.

I mean O don't think Pintu+TGP are BOTH Scum, but I think there's a good chance one of them is, and I'm undecided which one. Luca is more of a "removing a distraction" option.

I'm also not feeling a Gamma lynch here (and believe me this feels ODD to me because Gamma is one of my favourite voting targets of all time).

[Mathdino]

Pintu and Paradox seem fine to me. I consider Luca to basically be a policyvig. If town agreed to it, I'd love a vig on Luca, but otherwise, probably a bad idea.

You like calling scumteams. Who are you feeling as scumpartners for your potential scumreads?

Are NSG and Creature both town?

[Gamma Emerald]

@A50 Excuse me you didn't seem to want to vote me in certain other games (Death Note, GIFPick, could be others), why do you say I'm one your favorite voting targets?

[Almost50]

You like calling scumteams. Who are you feeling as scumpartners for your potential scumreads?

Are NSG and Creature both town?

I don't know yet. I mean, TGP pinged my dar with the vote switch to Gamma, and it looked like he was setting Gamma to be the leading wagon (possibly to save Anen, which is why I moved to Anen myself), but that is all my brain working in it's usual unorthodox way.

As for NSG/Creature, I'm leaning towards both being Town, but I have Creature as the stronger read on the two (

leans

)

[Almost50]

the stronger read OF the two

[Almost50]

@A50 Excuse me you didn't seem to want to vote me in certain other games (Death Note, GIFPick, could be others), why do you say I'm one your favorite voting targets?

What is GIFPick? And I was Scum in Death Note!

[Almost50]

Oh.. GIF U-Pick? Is that the one when the 16-headed hydra got Vigged on D1?

[Aneninen]

I answered this already. The same post by you where I took issue with your analysis of my 58+60 I felt had too little town-tells spotted, I felt like you were not really trying to townhunt which felt scummy.

Posts 58 and 60. Reads on Page3 or so are obviously much weaker and based upon smaller things than on eg. Page30, or on Day2. In most cases. In other words: if such a thing had happened now, I wouldn't care a lot about it. Actually if you hadn't brought it up I wouldn't even remembered it.

Perhaps you should explain more about your towntell on Gamma? Why have you suddenly gone 180 on that read? Dare I say, this sudden shift feels predatory to me.

That.
Was it another reaction test?
Post-edit. Never mind, I've found it.

Aninen what team are you on? VALOR ROCKS Anen is obvtown cause he plays Pokemon Go.(joking)

You can vote for me then because I'm Mystic. ^_^
But

Spoiler:

I have quite a lot of Valor and Instinct friends, too.

One thing I'm thinking; has anyone seen any association tells from either of them? I feel their interactions are sorta awkward but I can't explain why.

Gamma and Mathdino?

(Self-reminder. It sounds awkward but I don't remember why I was townreading Mathdino earlier.)

Is a math/luca/gamma scumteam possible?

Strange. That Math/Luca pair has already come into my mind, too. But I don't think it's likely. (If I'm right, they're doing it f-cking well.) Nevertheless, I'm ignoring this possibility right now. If they're scum together we'll find that out on a later Day.

Pintu and Paradox seem fine to me. I consider Luca to basically be a policyvig. If town agreed to it, I'd love a vig on Luca, but otherwise, probably a bad idea.

Wait-oh.

3. You are not allowed to scumread

mutantdevle

and GoldenParadox for standard scumtells. I've seen them both mislynched when they were towntelling left and fucking right. If anyone has any firsthand scum meta of them, go ahead and share.

Paradox and

Jay

are currently not readable. Stop trying. Jay dies before LyLo, and Paradox needs to provide more content or he goes straight into the scumpool.

Considering the underlined names I can't really follow your logic.

[JaydragonKing]

I am scummy from past games. They are scummy at the moment. Seems a simple reason for why he's going for them instead of me.