Open 714: Tit for Tat [Game Over]

[mutantdevle]

@Everyone voting me – please inform me of what your mathdino read is. Doesn't have to be detailed, you can condense it to a few words, even.

I was never voting for you, but I had stated intent to vote so I guess this question is directed towards me too. Math is my strongest town read - everything about his play screams town to me. I think the main point to suggest he is scum is the notion that his gambits aren't legit and just scum being flip-floppy with their reads. I've never seen scum Math, but his town play is incredibly strong IMO (even if a little arrogant) and he doesn't strike me as someone who'd make such stupid mistakes as scum. I don't believe he is backtracking or flailing on anything, they are genuine gambits.

[mutantdevle]

His "I don't conform to site meta. I usually look more an more townie" still seems scummy to me. I agree with Creature saying he seems fence sitting

My "I don't conform to site meta. I usually look more an more townie" IS my meta though.. would you like me to link you to games where I have said similar things or where others have noticed how I get townier as the day goes on? And I already pointed out that Creature's statement of 'He's fence-sitting' is a blatant misrep by removing 1 statement from its context. If you have other points of where I've seemingly been sitting on a fence then feel free to point them out but I get the feeling that you're just not reading everything in the thread (which I don't really blame you for tbh since there's been quite a bit of fluff from Gamma and pointless back and forth arguments).

[mutantdevle]

I'm not so sure Gamma is town tbh, but I'm not sure if it's just his posting style that's triggering me.

Right after Mathdino's surprise scumread on NSG?
Can we see a soft-chainsaw here?

I don't see what Math's read on NSG has to do with my read on Gamma and I have no idea what your second question is - possibly because I am unfamiliar with the term?

[mutantdevle]

Pintu and Paradox seem fine to me. I consider Luca to basically be a policyvig. If town agreed to it, I'd love a vig on Luca, but otherwise, probably a bad idea.

Wait-oh.

3. You are not allowed to scumread

mutantdevle

and GoldenParadox for standard scumtells. I've seen them both mislynched when they were towntelling left and fucking right. If anyone has any firsthand scum meta of them, go ahead and share.

Paradox and

Jay

are currently not readable. Stop trying. Jay dies before LyLo, and Paradox needs to provide more content or he goes straight into the scumpool.

Considering the underlined names I can't really follow your logic.

I don't follow your logic on why the latter 2 of math's posts would cause you not to follow the logic of his first?

[Luca Blight]

Starting to catch-up again...

*Sigh* I think I've come to the conclusion lynching in Pintu/Anen would be our best bet.

VOTE: Pintu

Anen can be the Vig shot (or vise versa if so you prefer)

Based on....?

-----


595 - Don't really get why Anen takes back his townread of Pin here. Is this actually based on the content of 392 itself? It's weird how he snips off part of Pin's reasoning here. The time tag comment that follows is bad as well - he's assuming Pin didn't post without reading recent posts (something I do myself sometimes) or merely get distracted while posting. What motivation has Pin to deliberately vote Creature only to immediately rescind it?

[Aneninen]

@Everyone voting me – please inform me of what your mathdino read is. Doesn't have to be detailed, you can condense it to a few words, even.

Actually I must have missed this. Maybe because I'm not voting right now. Reasons above, why.
There's my answer for your question partially, if you still care. Earlier I had a townread on Mathdino, because I thought his whole argument with Luca was mostly about playstyle differences. Right now I don't know what to think. He posts a lot and I must admit I haven't always read everything from him. Yet he could be scum too. However, I wouldn't lynch him on Day1. If he's town we'll gain a lot from his reads later as long as he's alive. If he's scum, I don't think he'd get to LyLo because sooner or later it would turn out that his reads are pigeon poop.

I'm not so sure Gamma is town tbh, but I'm not sure if it's just his posting style that's triggering me.

Right after Mathdino's surprise scumread on NSG?
Can we see a soft-chainsaw here?

I don't see what Math's read on NSG has to do with my read on Gamma and I have no idea what your second question is - possibly because I am unfamiliar with the term?

Chainsaw = attacking the townie who has just attacked your scumbuddy. Eg. If I'm scum with Clotilde and Mathilda votes for her, I start calling Mathilda scum.

Actually I don't remember why I posted this. The only thing comes into my mind that I was reading the game without my glasses on and skipped a couple of words or lines and I thought you had posted "I'm not sure Mathdino is town tbh". I know how terrible it sounds. But such things are typical of me.

I don't follow your logic on why the latter 2 of math's posts would cause you not to follow the logic of his first?

From his point of view Jay or you would be a better Vig-target than Luca.

595 - Don't really get why Anen takes back his townread of Pin here. Is this actually based on the content of 392 itself? It's weird how he snips off part of Pin's reasoning here. The time tag comment that follows is bad as well - he's assuming Pin didn't post without reading recent posts (something I do myself sometimes) or merely get distracted while posting. What motivation has Pin to deliberately vote Creature only to immediately rescind it?

It wasn't his 392 alone. It was the fact that he had wanted more content from Creature while it had actually been there, for 12 minutes. (The sentence I quoted stood out, that'swhy I removed the other part of the post.) No idea why he unvoted Creature later but I think he must have seen that he had already posted. So I don't think his reasoning for his unvote was genuine.

[Luca Blight]

615 Math - Just because Ceature has been right in the past doesn't mean he'll be right this time. And if he's shit at giving reasons then how can they even be '

good reads

' so much as '

lucky guesses

'? It's like someone wearing their lucky underpants for their trip to the bookies. '

It worked last time so maybe it'll work again'.

Yes, I don't believe you completely explained the Gamma towntell? You mentioned something about voting Creature, but I'd like to know exactly the details behind this.

You don't have to say anything back to my counter-points, but don't go around subequently saying you won the 1v1 or try to use points I countered to say I'm scum.

617 - Math earlier condemned MS vigs for going for the

'hero

' kills that hurt town, yet here he is saying he'd love a Luca vig kill for pretty selfish reasons.

[mutantdevle]

So I'm going to go ahead and

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Why? Well, first of all, he has the 2nd most posts in the game (by quite a long way) yet not a lot of substance. Most of his posts are a simple sentence or two, typically only 1 line of text, which gives me the impression he is trying to look busy without actually being so. If you were to ISO him you'd see that not a lot of his posts are meaningful. His posts are either mostly fluff or asking questions he rarely ever pursues the answers for. It's like he doesn't actually care for the answers (my accusation being that he knows their alignment anyway so doesn't actually need to sort people with his questions). Seriously though, check his ISO, he NEVER replies to any of the responses to his questions unless they ask a question back to their response. He really doesn't care about the answers. So that and the uselessness of a lot of what he posts makes me think he's just posting a lot of what he does to give the impression he is scum hunting without properly doing so.

Also, remember 260? - he says the reason he didn't vote Luca at the time of FoS-ing him was because he didn't know Luca's wagon status and was scared of accidentally hammering. I call BS on that. You think someone posting as often as Gamma is would really think that Luca could possibly be at L-1? Furthermore, why would he think Luca could potentially be at L-1 in the first place? The only way he'd get the impression is if he read the argument between math and Luca - it would be a reasonable assumption that perhaps either one of them could have been voted for over that. But his excuse for not knowing the wagon status of Luca was:

I skipped a few pages cos I was taking a break

I call BS. If he had done that then he wouldn't have known Luca could potentially have been voted for. Saying he didn't want to vote Luca because he wasn't aware of his wagon status is such BS. The town justification for why he didn't vote Luca with the FoS would simply be that he straight up didn't want to vote. You don't HAVE to vote your scummier reads, but scum Gamma would have felt pressured to. Additionally, if he truly did want to vote Luca, he would have checked to see if there was a wagon. But he didn't care for actually voting, he just felt pressured to.

In general, I think pretty much all of Gamma's votes have been bad:

Spoiler: Wall of vote analysis

VOTE: jmo16mla
Your username gives me bad memories

RVS - this is fine.

VOTE: Creature
Good vote, hasn't posted, is scum

If this is another RVS vote (which I assume it is) then this is also fine. However, if it isn't, then it is obviously quite a shit vote. My main issue with this vote though is that it doesn't change for the next 242 posts in the thread. He just completely vote parks creature. His next vote is this:

I'm concerned about accidentally hammering
but since you say it's fresh
VOTE: Luca Blight

Which, like I say, he was hesitant to actually do and only did out of pressure. So to me, this gives the impression that he had full intention to vote park Creature here.

He then makes this vote:

VOTE: Aneninen
I'm feeling this one

with no justification whatsoever.

His next vote is this:

{Jay, Anen, Pin}{math, Gamma, Creature}{mutant, NSG}{Luca, JMO, Almost}

Too many scum are gonna spoil the stew
Too many nullss are gonna spoil the stew

I CHANNEL THE POWER OF RANMARU AND CALL THIS A SCUM POST
VOTE: Creature

which he later justifies with:

In case you're wondering what's up with me voting Creature
It looks like he is attacking the idea of that many nulls and scumreads without actually engaging with the read list

Refering to this post:

{Jay, Anen, Pin}{math, Gamma, Creature}{mutant, NSG}{Luca, JMO, Almost}

Too many scum are gonna spoil the stew
Too many nullss are gonna spoil the stew

So... Creature is scum because of 1 single post? He has no other reason to vote Creature here and if this is the only one then this vote is bad. It feels like an under the radar attempt to get back on Creature.

And now his most recent vote is this:

...
Gamma continuing to vote Creature despite townreading him is probably a fluke.
...

!
Yeah I thought I was voting Aneninen
VOTE: Aneninen

Again, no justification on why he returns here. I don't think Gamma ever mentions why he scum reads Anen, just that he does. And I really don't think at this point that the continued vote on Creature was an accident.

So TLDR for that spoiler: Gamma's votes suck and have little justification and it doesn't feel like he truly believes in his votes at all.

[mutantdevle]

I don't follow your logic on why the latter 2 of math's posts would cause you not to follow the logic of his first?

From his point of view Jay or you would be a better Vig-target than Luca.

Maybe that's just your own opinion getting in the way?

I mean, I can see why you think he'd want Jay vigged but I don't see how his acknowledgement of my playstyle means he wants me vigged.

[Luca Blight]

@Anen

- I just don't get why scum-Pin would see Creature's 'content' (it wasn't even that much tbf), pretend not to see it and proceed to suspect him for lack of content, before rescinding everything a short while later. At best it would just be a completely pointless exercise? What does he gain as scum here?

[Luca Blight]

I like Mutant's case on Gamma. It reminded me of the problem I had with Gamma's vote of me and subsequent shift onto Anen - it felt like he never even wanted to wagon me.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Gamma

[Luca Blight]

That's L-2 btw.

[Luca Blight]

Oh wait, it's L-1.

UNVOTE:

[Gamma Emerald]

I have some good news for you. (And a piece of bad for myself.)

Now I can explain my Creature and Gamma reads.

This one was my game at Team Mafia. Creature was there too, and this has been my only experience with him. Here, in the early days I couldn't see the Creature I had seen in Team Mafia. Even if everyone said he is ridiculously easy to read, I saw him lurking and posting no content. However, a couple of days ago the familiar Creature "kicked in" with the same posting sytle I know. (Although before the game ended there was a small logical chance that Creature was scum there, he hadn't been on my scum-list when I'd been alive.)

Mod

, I don't think it's a problem to link the game since it's over. I actually waited for a while to see whether the thread would be re-opened but it seems it won't happen until Team Mafia ends. If it's

still

against the rules to mention the game here, I'm sorry and delete this part of the post.

I had an ongoing one with Gamma too, but it has been abandoned for a reason I don't know yet. In this game he replaced in, got lynched on Day1, and he flipped scum. At the beginning his gameplay here was similar to the one I'd seen there. Especially that "I don't know the size of the Luca-wagon" part reminded me to something just as silly as he'd done there. (I don't remember what was it.) But suddenly, he started to be ridiculously nitpicky, which I couldn't see there. Then, checking his ISO I saw a different gameplay.
I must admit, my earlier read on him may have been a bit biased. It was easier for me to find scummy things in his posts: in the other game I knew he was scum from the beginning, so I saw all the scumtells clearly. I was scum with him.

--It should be fine since it's not an ongoing game.

Honestly I'm not sure how much of that game is impacting my read here but I think your play is worse than there tbh (this is before checking that post again as directed)

[Gamma Emerald]

First line I can agree with. Second not sure what informs it?

what? why do

you

agree with that? since when were you aware of my meta?

I was aware of it since Gest idea

@Gamma: You blatantly ignore NSG's second question here. You never justified WHY you agree with Math's notion that NSG was lock town at that point in time. Sure, you say you're familiar with her meta. But what specifically about it lead you to lock town NSG at the time? This is especially relevant since math has said this opinion was a gambit. So basically, you're agreeing with math over something he didn't genuinely believe.

From what I'd seen so far it felt more like her inquisitive town self than her more shy scum self

[Gamma Emerald]

So I'm going to go ahead and

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Why? Well, first of all, he has the 2nd most posts in the game (by quite a long way) yet not a lot of substance. Most of his posts are a simple sentence or two, typically only 1 line of text, which gives me the impression he is trying to look busy without actually being so. If you were to ISO him you'd see that not a lot of his posts are meaningful. His posts are either mostly fluff or asking questions he rarely ever pursues the answers for. It's like he doesn't actually care for the answers (my accusation being that he knows their alignment anyway so doesn't actually need to sort people with his questions). Seriously though, check his ISO, he NEVER replies to any of the responses to his questions unless they ask a question back to their response. He really doesn't care about the answers. So that and the uselessness of a lot of what he posts makes me think he's just posting a lot of what he does to give the impression he is scum hunting without properly doing so.

Also, remember 260? - he says the reason he didn't vote Luca at the time of FoS-ing him was because he didn't know Luca's wagon status and was scared of accidentally hammering. I call BS on that. You think someone posting as often as Gamma is would really think that Luca could possibly be at L-1? Furthermore, why would he think Luca could potentially be at L-1 in the first place? The only way he'd get the impression is if he read the argument between math and Luca - it would be a reasonable assumption that perhaps either one of them could have been voted for over that. But his excuse for not knowing the wagon status of Luca was:

I skipped a few pages cos I was taking a break

I call BS. If he had done that then he wouldn't have known Luca could potentially have been voted for. Saying he didn't want to vote Luca because he wasn't aware of his wagon status is such BS. The town justification for why he didn't vote Luca with the FoS would simply be that he straight up didn't want to vote. You don't HAVE to vote your scummier reads, but scum Gamma would have felt pressured to. Additionally, if he truly did want to vote Luca, he would have checked to see if there was a wagon. But he didn't care for actually voting, he just felt pressured to.

In general, I think pretty much all of Gamma's votes have been bad:

Spoiler: Wall of vote analysis

VOTE: jmo16mla
Your username gives me bad memories

RVS - this is fine.

VOTE: Creature
Good vote, hasn't posted, is scum

If this is another RVS vote (which I assume it is) then this is also fine. However, if it isn't, then it is obviously quite a shit vote. My main issue with this vote though is that it doesn't change for the next 242 posts in the thread. He just completely vote parks creature. His next vote is this:

I'm concerned about accidentally hammering
but since you say it's fresh
VOTE: Luca Blight

Which, like I say, he was hesitant to actually do and only did out of pressure. So to me, this gives the impression that he had full intention to vote park Creature here.

He then makes this vote:

VOTE: Aneninen
I'm feeling this one

with no justification whatsoever.

His next vote is this:

{Jay, Anen, Pin}{math, Gamma, Creature}{mutant, NSG}{Luca, JMO, Almost}

Too many scum are gonna spoil the stew
Too many nullss are gonna spoil the stew

I CHANNEL THE POWER OF RANMARU AND CALL THIS A SCUM POST
VOTE: Creature

which he later justifies with:

In case you're wondering what's up with me voting Creature
It looks like he is attacking the idea of that many nulls and scumreads without actually engaging with the read list

Refering to this post:

{Jay, Anen, Pin}{math, Gamma, Creature}{mutant, NSG}{Luca, JMO, Almost}

Too many scum are gonna spoil the stew
Too many nullss are gonna spoil the stew

So... Creature is scum because of 1 single post? He has no other reason to vote Creature here and if this is the only one then this vote is bad. It feels like an under the radar attempt to get back on Creature.

And now his most recent vote is this:

...
Gamma continuing to vote Creature despite townreading him is probably a fluke.
...

!
Yeah I thought I was voting Aneninen
VOTE: Aneninen

Again, no justification on why he returns here. I don't think Gamma ever mentions why he scum reads Anen, just that he does. And I really don't think at this point that the continued vote on Creature was an accident.

So TLDR for that spoiler: Gamma's votes suck and have little justification and it doesn't feel like he truly believes in his votes at all.

loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool
I think you're scumreading me partially for playstyle (the one-liners are NAI and I can prove it). Besides that there's the "he doesn't care for answers" poke which I've been accused of in the past several times so what I'd like you to do is find the responses I haven't engaged with so I can look at them at a glance and see what I make/made of them. As for not voting Luca I've been kinda on edge wrt accidental hammers as of late. In a past game I was hammered because no one was keeping track of votes, and in the game Aneni referenced for my meta I was thinking I was hammered at one point and I was like "shit I didn't get to do anything to stop this". Also what's wrong with vote parking in the early game? Along with that, if I didn't have any other suspicions why should I be moving my vote? The Aneninen vote, I've explained it a couple time and I call bullshit on you not seeing it because you say you read my ISO. I'm not explaining it for you again btw, go find it yourself. As for the Creature vote I felt like that was enough along with his lack of activity so far. As for the issue with my vote sticking on Creature I was still scumreading that one post but his activity had improved so I felt it was 1) better to give him some time and 2) I felt comfortable giving up the point there. Also if I wanted to vote park Creature why not explain why it wasn't a fluke and keep voting? If you think that one post was enough why would something else change that?

[Gamma Emerald]

Also the point of "I skipped I few pages" making my resistance of voting LB invalid:" unless a votecount was posted at the time no, that's wrong. In fact it would likely make me less willing to vote since I still haven't seen the procession of votes fully.

[Aneninen]

Mutantdevle's Gamma case is strong indeed. There's one thing I should bring up: his case on me appeared to have come from a town mindset. (Actually he was the only one who actually

posted

some reasons along with the vote for me.) I remember that part about the size of the Luca-wagon and I was scumreading him because of that.

I don't know what to think, because:

@Anen

- I just don't get why scum-Pin would see Creature's 'content' (it wasn't even that much tbf), pretend not to see it and proceed to suspect him for lack of content, before rescinding everything a short while later. At best it would just be a completely pointless exercise? What does he gain as scum here?

I don't know. I strongly think it was pigeon poop and that's all.

Here's my problem. A couple of days ago I had no time for reading and somehow I lost my focus. Even if I tried to catch up. I'm reading, posts are coming and going and I can't make anything out of them. So I desperately want to find something, anything so that my usual scumhunting could "kick in". But somehow it doesn't work.

Honestly I'm not sure how much of that game is impacting my read here but I think your play is worse than there tbh (this is before checking that post again as directed)

See above! I F-CKING KNOW. I was focused there. And I don't know what's wrong with me here.

Here comes Gamma's 665. He was actually self-hammered in that abandoned game, BUT, just check out his posts at the time he was wagoned! They were full of swearing. AtE-ing. Raging. I can't see any of those posts here.
Even if I think Mutantdevle's case is valid, Gamma's

reactions

make me think that he's town.
I'm getting nowhere.

AtE
I'm going to wash the dishes instead. I love doing that. The more the merrier.
And this post sounds fake. I know that too. But I don't care shyt.
/AtE

[Gamma Emerald]

Actually the raging is NAI, can provide examples of me raging as town. In fact, the only reason I considered self-hammering that game was because I knew I had to do it

once

as scum to offset all the time I would self-vote as town to avoid becoming like Boonskiies.
also UNVOTE: because I'm liking Aneni's solviness currently

[pinturicchio]

Oh wait, it's L-1.

UNVOTE:

Could you explain me why putting him on L-1 was a bad decision, even if you thought Mutant's case on Gamma was good? Are you not entirely convinced? If not, what's the difference between putting him on L-2 and L-1?

[pinturicchio]

Actually the raging is NAI, can provide examples of me raging as town. In fact, the only reason I considered self-hammering that game was because I knew I had to do it

once

as scum to offset all the time I would self-vote as town to avoid becoming like Boonskiies.
also UNVOTE: because I'm liking Aneni's solviness currently

I was thinking Aneninen's point was really valid until this post. Could you explain what made you think Aneninen's has more solviness now? Or are you just dragging a town to your hole?

[Luca Blight]

Oh wait, it's L-1.

UNVOTE:

Could you explain me why putting him on L-1 was a bad decision, even if you thought Mutant's case on Gamma was good? Are you not entirely convinced? If not, what's the difference between putting him on L-2 and L-1?

1) Accidental hammerings can happen
2) Indeed I'm not convinced; I've not even had the chance to ISO Gamma yet.
3) L-2 is decent pressure while L-1, as I mentioned, runs the risk of accidental/lolhammering and also draws out a claim.

[Mathdino]

why would he claim prematurely without intent

[JaydragonKing]

Being honest, I would have voted too when I checked the page and Luca said L-2 thinking "yeah, that's a good idea." To put him at L-1.

[Almost50]

@Anen: I'd be interested in knowing your reason(s) for SRing me, and -maybe- why you think BSG/mutant are my buddies here.