Open 714: Tit for Tat [Game Over]

[Almost50]

P.S. Yes, I know I'm voting Anen who is not on Gamma. Just let it be for now and do as I say (or don't)

[Gamma Emerald]

Why is Pintu being scumread? I'm not necessarily arguing against it yet I just want to see what the reasoning is.

[Gamma Emerald]

why would he claim prematurely without intent

Have you honestly never seen this happen?

I have claimed without intent I think once at least, it was due to there being a wagon on me I did not see being removed without a claim and I wanted to progress things quickly so no deadline rush happened. It was ok because we lynched scum that day but I got NKed that night.

[Gamma Emerald]

Oh wait, it's L-1.

UNVOTE:

Could you explain me why putting him on L-1 was a bad decision, even if you thought Mutant's case on Gamma was good? Are you not entirely convinced? If not, what's the difference between putting him on L-2 and L-1?

1) Accidental hammerings can happen
2) Indeed I'm not convinced; I've not even had the chance to ISO Gamma yet.
3) L-2 is decent pressure while L-1, as I mentioned, runs the risk of accidental/lolhammering and also draws out a claim.

1) With you saying it was L-2, yes, plausible.
2) Could you ISO him and give us your thoughts about him?
3) Didn't think about claiming; I really don't see Gamma as anything else than scum and a fakeclaim from him would expose the real PR. But I get your point, you are not as convinced as me, so of course you thought about that.

Why can't you see me as town? Do none of my posts townping you?

[Gamma Emerald]

Holy hell

I also found these 2 posts quite interesting:

A50 vote Aneni with me

A50 vote Aneni with me

I'll vote somewhere when NSG comes online.

WAIT A SECOND!! Gamma asking ME to work with him?? Is it judgement day already???

I figured it was a fair idea because we had similar thoughts on him
I will admit it's probably a first though

Since the only post A50 had made that had anything to do with Anen was this:

...
Yeah, trying my hardest not to get NK'd on N1 by getting myself lynched on D1. GENIUS!

Also, getting lynched? You weren't wagoned at all!

This was literally taken out of context. Jay was saying my play was nothing like he has ever seen me before (and he only saw me as Town) as an alternative to the "trying too hard not to get NK'd" option.

Can someone please explain to me how anything A50 said her was even remotely similar to what Gamma has been saying? Because I don't see any similarities. Gamma had never criticised Anen for taking things out of context and A50 wasn't even criticising Anen.

BULLSHIT! You're lying out of your teeth here! Again you miss critical information in my ISO, and you quoted the fucking post so this is

inexcusable

! I sated earlier that Aneninen destroyed to context of my 58+60, and A50 complain about something of his being taken out of context so I asked him to vote with me since we agreed on that point.

And now you've unvoted him now that real pressure has come to you other it.

also UNVOTE: because I'm liking Aneni's solviness currently

What a cop out.

You don't believe this read; you never have.

What, so I can't reconsider a read ever? This is a bullshit push, and the fact he's pressing me on my unvote makes me think he's gonna keep "scumreading" me on this topic. I see Aneninen has already called Mutantdevle on the Regardless Of Card, and I'm in agreement. Esketit.

VOTE: mutantdevle
Auf Weiderschen, baby!

[Gamma Emerald]

Besides that there's the "he doesn't care for answers" poke which I've been accused of in the past several times so what I'd like you to do is find the responses I haven't engaged with so I can look at them at a glance and see what I make/made of them.

Certainly.

Spoiler: Another wall :/

Your questions:

I mean that secret stuff is aside from obvious shit, like "if anyone fakeclaims vig, just shoot them instead of counterclaiming". I have other plans to deal with fakeclaimers but we'll get to that when

we run up scum

.

And also "don't fakeclaim just to not get lynched".

Oh and also "if you're a PR who's literally about to get lynched within 30 minutes, don't self-hammer".

._.

How would you know?

Setup has a vig, so that's cool. I have a working theory on how to best use it (especially given that we're in evens) but it's gonna require activity and not running things right up to the deadline.

Luckily games with playerlists that all know each other are mad townsided so we should probably be able to lock a lynch much sooner than that.

Don't really see any good strategies other than secret vig plan (I'm interested in discussing this later in the day with mutant actually).

VOTE: Aneninen

Just because you know everyone, doesn't mean everyone else does

Also dino talk to me about this

Math's response:

1. How would I know what?
I more broadly mean that I expect scum to claim a power role so as to dodge the lynch. So we'll deal with the claim situation when it comes.

2. I already did, see my edit above. I think Aneninen is the only player that I personally remember that idk if anyone else does, but it'd be pretty unlikely he literally knows no one else in this list.

Your original acknowledgement of this was only claiming Math is town. You don't actually reply until math calls you out for not caring:

@Gamma: I responded to some things you wanted to talk about in 41. Did you... care?

Clearly, you did not care and thought only to respond when it had been pointed out that you hadn't.

Next:

More people need to be voting.

Specifically, if you're
1. Still on a random vote
2. Not voting anyone

I would like to know why you're not helping me wagon NSG or Aneninen.

You want more to happen, help me move the game forward.

Also why NSG or Aneni? What makes them good early-game wagons?

Response:

@Gamma: I already answered that, keep reading.

You don't respond to this indicating you don't care about why NSG or Anen would be good early game wagons and have no desire to discuss it.


Jmo also never answered this question:

VOTE: luca blight

I want to get this to L-1.

y

You did not pursue the answer because you don't care about it.

HOT TAKE: NSG is locktown. Good to know, moving on then.

Jay isn't scum with mutant. Nice to know I guess.

First line I can agree with. Second not sure what informs it?

Again, this question goes unanswered yet you do not pursue it.

#Important Announcement:

I see you're all making a damn good circus show without me. I'll only intervene when I'm needed, so carry on. (That's me being

very truthful

, in fact)

Why are you "only intervening when needed"? seems like an excuse to lurk until your buddy is wagoned and then protect them
I expect fair activity from you buddy

Fun fact: this question also goes unanswered yet you don't try to pursue it. Is this a pattern I'm noticing here?

But then this question:

@Aneni (I can still call you this right) I answered 77 cos I didn't realize it was meant for one person
Also why is my suspicion of LB poop? I'm suspecting them (Luca what's your pronoun?) because I don't like how they're treating jmo's attempts to advance the gamestate

does get answered:

Why did you answer 250 first, 242 next and finally 245?

While replying to your post saying that I didn't contribute anything, I remembered a few posts that I wanted to bring to light. So I brought them to light.

Okay. This may or may not be true, but it may be totally irrelevant too.

@Aneni (I can still call you this right) I answered 77 cos I didn't realize it was meant for one person

According to your speed how you caught up I doubt that you had missed the context.

Also why is my suspicion of LB poop? I'm suspecting them (Luca what's your pronoun?) because I don't like how they're treating jmo's attempts to advance the gamestate

Again, according to your catch-up you must have had a brief idea about the wagon size.
Besides, there was a Vote Count on Page8. You could have checked the votes.
Posting a FoS is an auto pigeon poop for me.
Also, Luca has had interactions with quite a few other players too. It's strange that you pointed out only Jmo.

I forgot I had a vote on someone tbh. I'm not voting the other guy because I can't remember his name right now and I'm on my phone on a hurry. I'll catch up as soon as possible.

What other guy? You have a scumread and you don't remember his

name

(yet you know it's a guy)?! If you meant Mutant, you actually posted his name earlier.
This doesn't add up at all.

I'm concerned about accidentally hammering
but since you say it's fresh
VOTE: Luca Blight

NoNoNoNoNONONO!
We know that you'd been reading the game before this and your FoS-post.
Even if someone doesn't know whether a wagon consists of 3 or 4 people, they MUST know whether it's fresh or close to hammer.
Your whole catch-up was about producing content-looking posts without any scumhunting behind. You picked a couple of things, and made up a couple of reads.
Scum do such posts.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Gamma Emerald

But then that's the end of the conversation...

I'd just like to point out that there have been multiple questions you have asked and have been answered that you didn't respond to but I'm not including those since they were looking for a simple answer and needed no discussion. However, questions like this have no reason to be asked if you don't actually want to talk about them unless you are simply trying to just look like you're trying to gamesolve.

You ask this:

VOTE: Creature

I do declare that this is legit his only post. And Almost popped in and sang some lyrics for some reason and yelled at Gamma like a grouchy old man. Almost is stubborn enough to do his own shit to his grave, and unless any of you know Aneninen, then he seems like a good starting place right now for my vote.

VOTE: Aneninen

How are either of those remotely scummy...

With no response. You did not pursue.

Why is there

almost definitely

scum in me and jmo, and why are you favouring me as scum?

I'm with this first question, but on a different leaning. Why is jmo possibly scum to you dino?

No answer. Did not pursue.

Read carefully what you quoted, I'm not sure if you misunderstand or if you are the one being

obtuse

here.

Why were you focused on the

basis

so much, rather than looking into the

motive

?

Did not pursue.

what a meme it is to have jay, aneninen, paradox, and almost50 all in the same game

jay lemme tell you about the time paradox claimed babysitter and unironically calmly self-hammered, thinking it was the town thing to do

Edit: I in no way advocate for townreading Jay, lol.

Why all of them

Did not pursue.

How am I being defensive here? I want to know what you're calling defensive so I can determine what I was actually meaning with it

Did not pursue.

JMO: I don't like this. Scumlean because it looks like he has a lot of fluff not trying to move the game forward.

Like why does everyone suspect jmo for this? Did no one read his posts ever?

No one answered this and you didn't seem to care. I'm under the impression this question wasn't supposed to be rhetorical.

Can someone speak with me?

Sure. What are your reads? What do you think of the pushes so far?

Did not pursue.

Pinturicchio
Gamma Emerald
TheGoldenParadox
jmo16mla
mutantdevle

Okay, some of these are meh and need to do more.

some...which?

Did not pursue.

I replied to your case point for point and you dropped it. If you genuinely want to get me lynched perhaps it would be in your interest to try and show why my questions are of a predatory nature, because only Gamma vaguely seems to agree with that and he's in his own world.

I just find it strange how you scumread me based on 1 main thing, yet accept it from others as being town. Like, you're just undermining your own point against me as it's obviously not very AI if people you think are town are doing the same thing.

Scum are wary of 1v1's in general - I'm Town and don't give a f*ck basically. I think you've been all over the place this game and I'm holding you to account for it. As scum I probably wouldn't want this because even if I succeeded in getting you lynched, I wouldn't exactly look good from it.

Excuse me what about me being in my own world? What makes you say that?

Did not pursue.

reads

I can understand these. I don't recall saying "don't push pin if he's not consistent" or w/e. But otherwise the thoughts on me seem fair. However, I've not been reading him on pure meta but mostly on intent. It feels like his intent is towny. As such I haven't been paying attention to meta.
Is this clear as to what determined my Pin read?

Did not pursue.

And that's it I think. Though I did start to skim read a little more towards the end because I got bored and I felt too repetitive.

TLDR: You don't pursue your questions that go unanswered and don't seem to care about the answers once they are given (with a few exceptions where you do actually continue a conversation afterwards). This just gives the impression you don't care about the answers and are just asking questions to make it seem like you are scum hunting.

Just from looking at the beginning I think it's also bullshit. I'm pretty sure I responded to those first few questions. Might go over that later but currently I don't think it's worth my time.

[Gamma Emerald]

@Anen: is that a fancy way of saying mutant is tunneling you

Kinda (also he's tunneling me). The key point of that read is him calling my read change on Aneninen a cop-out. I'm certain he would have continued to badger me if I'd kept the scumread, so he's basically scumreading me no matter what I do with my Aneninen read at this point.

[Gamma Emerald]

I left this out:

also UNVOTE: because I'm liking Aneni's solviness currently

Solviness? Whutlol. Right now I think I'm one of the least useful players here.

Also you're doing fairly well imo, you're active and engaging others, and you're actually trying to sort people.

[Gamma Emerald]

[quote="In post 665, "Gamma Emerald"]Also if I wanted to vote park Creature why not explain why it wasn't a fluke and keep voting? If you think that one post was enough why would something else change that?

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to ask me here.[/quote]
Basically why would I change back to Aneninen if I wanted to park on Creature? You seemed to be saying that one post was my whole logic but if that's the case why would I not continue to badger that point?

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm assuming everyone has read 657 because I have several points in there but 683 is really just 1 point that's stretched out and backup up a lot.

The TLDR for that is that Gamma's lack of justification of his Anen read and inability to properly explain what Anen was discrediting in a post he made makes me believe that Gamma's read on Anen is completely fabricated and not genuine. 683 outlines all the times he mentions his read on Anen and every criticism of him and I point out why it's shit or not a good enough explanation.

Well I tried to detail my thoughts but my computer ate it and I lost interest

[Almost50]

Why is Pintu being scumread?

My reads are inexplicable as I'm mainly adopting Wisdom's play style in this game.

[Gamma Emerald]

Hot Take (1):

Gamma's is very likely TOWN in this game. Let him be, and vote your strongest SR

on his wagon

Hot Take (2):

Scum are likely Anen+Pintu+(one of) TGP/mutant/Jay > Luca (Luca is a tier higher than the other three)

Readlist:


Mathdino
Gamma/Creature/jmo16mla
NSG
Luca
TGP/mutant/Jay
Anen/Pintu

Sorry Aneninen is town. Vote mutant.

[Almost50]

Sorry Aneninen is town. Vote mutant.

Why is Anen Town (aside from activity)? And what about Luca?

[Gamma Emerald]

Sorry Aneninen is town. Vote mutant.

Why is Anen Town (aside from activity)? And what about Luca?

Anen is town because they're actually showing consideration of things rather than just bullrushing his scumreads. Luca is also town cos I can agree with how he's been feeling at times.

[mutantdevle]

BULLSHIT! You're lying out of your teeth here! Again you miss critical information in my ISO, and you quoted the fucking post so this is inexcusable! I sated earlier that Aneninen destroyed to context of my 58+60, and A50 complain about something of his being taken out of context so I asked him to vote with me since we agreed on that point.

You can't think I'm both lying out of my teeth and have missed critical information, that kinda counters each other.

In this case, yes I did miss something. That being:

WOOOOOW destruction of context much?

Since your main point against Anen seemed to be about the discrediting (since the discrediting part was the only thing to be mentioned several times) it kinda pushed your point of Anen removing context out of my mind so I was not thinking about it when I read A50's post and hence failed to make the connection. I apologise for that. If by "a lot of discrediting" you meant that he simply took that 1 trivial thing you said out of context then that makes a lot more sense for your read. But do you not see how phrasing it as "a lot of discrediting" suggest more that he was trying to nullify a lot of what other people were saying and not just that he took a single thing you specifically said out of context? Perhaps the reason I assumed your main point was the 'discrediting' is because that's the specific part that Anen brought up about what you said about him. This is the reason you should properly explain your reads and not just 1 off state your reasons in forgettable 1 liners.

And of course you can reconsider a read, it's just the way in which you did it seemed scummy to me. It seemingly came from nowhere as you showed no sign of previously town reading him and it was only at a time when you were facing heat over your scum read of him and he was sticking up for you slightly. Can you not see how that would be scummy from my POV? And my read of you is most certainly not locked, my reads are never something that I'd refuse to reconsider because I'm not arrogant or closed minded like that. And for the record, I wouldn't have given you more shit for keeping your scum read - but you shouldn't be basing your reads on whether or not I give you shit for them.


I fully understand your interactions with wanting A50 on the Anen wagon, so consider my points about that countered and nullified. But that was only 1 of many reasons I thought your Anen read was fabricated. However, with the new context that your main reason for scum reading Anen was that he took something you said out of context, that makes your read on him more justified from your point of view and hence less likely to be fabricated. There are still weak points in your criticisms of Anen though so I'd have to reconsider whether I genuinely consider that read fabricated - though my thinking about it will naturally be biased from previously believing it's fabricated. As scum, you'd probably take confidence in knowing you've placed doubt in my mind (though anyone too familiar with my meta would know that that isn't hard) but, since there are other reasons I scum read you, you have a while yet before I'm properly off your back.

[Gamma Emerald]

you're lying about having actually tried to ISO me fully.
As for the process from "destruction of context" to "looks like discrediting", I had skimmed and noted the egregiousness of the response to my post, then I went back to look closer and felt the amount of negative points was oddly high. So both of those were true at the same time. As for the quick read change is it something you'd say town never does? And I'm not "basing my reads on whether you give me shit for them"; that very conceited and misrepresentative in a way that tries to paint me as caring what you think about me.
And honestly I didn't say this yet but I think part of my read (like 20%) on Anen was OMGUS because of voting me for not catching up before interacting in real time.

[Almost50]

Sorry Aneninen is town. Vote mutant.

Why is Anen Town (aside from activity)? And what about Luca?

Anen is town because they're actually showing consideration of things rather than just bullrushing his scumreads. Luca is also town cos I can agree with how he's been feeling at times.

In other words, you are telling me that the 3 idles votes are all town. Nice. Now try to theorize where the 3 scum votes are located on the VC.

[Gamma Emerald]

How do I use Mathdinoo's tool he posted?

[mutantdevle]

you're lying about having actually tried to ISO me fully.
As for the process from "destruction of context" to "looks like discrediting", I had skimmed and noted the egregiousness of the response to my post, then I went back to look closer and felt the amount of negative points was oddly high. So both of those were true at the same time. As for the quick read change is it something you'd say town never does? And I'm not "basing my reads on whether you give me shit for them"; that very conceited and misrepresentative in a way that tries to paint me as caring what you think about me.
And honestly I didn't say this yet but I think part of my read (like 20%) on Anen was OMGUS because of voting me for not catching up before interacting in real time.

I'm not lying about ISOing you fully. I ISO'd you initially and skim read things to make sure I wasn't making mistakes when I made my initial push on you. I then ISOd you to look at all your points against Anen as per your request and then I ISOd you a third time to find all the questions that you didn't care about the answers for. I obviously did not read and memorise every single word you said. Naturally, if your point about the discrediting is mentioned more than your point about ignoring context then it's going to be the one I remember.

And no, of course it's not impossible for town to have a sudden read change. I suppose I should probably be expecting it from you at this point since you seem to form scum reads on single posts. But generally, I consider quick read changes to have a higher chance of being fabricated. But my interpretation of your sudden read changes is obviously going to be that it's scummy due to the bias that I already read you as scum. And if you didn't care about what I thought of you then you wouldn't be interacting with me and countering my points. The simple fact that everyone of either alignment wants to be seen as town for the purpose of their wincon means that naturally we all care about each others opinion.

I'm glad you admit that part of your read on Anen was OMGUS. Not many people are actually capable of admitting that. I must ask though, how much of your read on me do you consider to be OMGUS?

[Gamma Emerald]

Okay well you're not paying attention at all then because you're constantly making mistakes when ISOing me.
Alright you seem to be fine on the read change thing but you've already been called out for the tell so I can't go "oh he's improving he might be town" because you're very likely to have noticed that and to have attempted to cut it out of your posting.And sure everyone cares about how they're read but you make it sound like I'm tailoring them to you, which is very much not the case.
My read on you is 0% OMGUS. I wasn't really scumreading you until I started getting into your points and noticing errors that I felt were more likely to be scum bullshitting rather than honest town mistakes, along with the Regardless Of Card thing.

[Almost50]

How do I use Mathdinoo's tool he posted?

I have no idea

[mutantdevle]

Okay well you're not paying attention at all then because you're constantly making mistakes when ISOing me.
Alright you seem to be fine on the read change thing but you've already been called out for the tell so I can't go "oh he's improving he might be town" because you're very likely to have noticed that and to have attempted to cut it out of your posting.And sure everyone cares about how they're read but you make it sound like I'm tailoring them to you, which is very much not the case.
My read on you is 0% OMGUS. I wasn't really scumreading you until I started getting into your points and noticing errors that I felt were more likely to be scum bullshitting rather than honest town mistakes, along with the Regardless Of Card thing.

I am paying attention, I just failed to memorise 1 sentence that was kinda crucial to explaining your motivation. And what do you mean by I've been called out for 'the tell'? You mean the regardless of card thing? I disagree that I'm doing that since I'm not criticising literally everything you do and I'm still open to the possibility you are town. I'm just not praising you for your town tells as I obviously scum read you. After all, tunnelling people isn't just about getting people lynched, it's also about seeing how they react under pressure so that you can sort them. And I haven't cut anything out of my posting; I'm still posting normally. I'm also not trying to make it sound like you're tailoring your reads towards me specifically, my point was that you came across as though you backed down on a read based on pressure due to the sudden nature of the read change (which I'm now assuming is not AI for you but I'll make sure to check your meta at some point since both you and math have stated that part of my points against you are over your playstyle). Finally, I think my mistakes are neither scum bs nor honest town mistakes. They are simple human error.

[Aneninen]

@Anen: How many games have you played with Town!Me? And how many with Scum!Me?

I don't remember all of my old games, I must admit, but I'm sure we met at least once and you were town. (I might have been scum in one game. Or SK?)
But, what's more important, you were in Large 210 too! Even if you were there for a short time only (which was definitely our fault lol), your posts were entirely different than here. (For the others: I'm talking about the same game where Brass was in too.)

[Gamma Emerald]

Okay well you're not paying attention at all then because you're constantly making mistakes when ISOing me.
Alright you seem to be fine on the read change thing but you've already been called out for the tell so I can't go "oh he's improving he might be town" because you're very likely to have noticed that and to have attempted to cut it out of your posting.And sure everyone cares about how they're read but you make it sound like I'm tailoring them to you, which is very much not the case.
My read on you is 0% OMGUS. I wasn't really scumreading you until I started getting into your points and noticing errors that I felt were more likely to be scum bullshitting rather than honest town mistakes, along with the Regardless Of Card thing.

I am paying attention, I just failed to memorise 1 sentence that was kinda crucial to explaining your motivation. And what do you mean by I've been called out for 'the tell'? You mean the regardless of card thing? I disagree that I'm doing that since I'm not criticising literally everything you do and I'm still open to the possibility you are town. I'm just not praising you for your town tells as I obviously scum read you. After all, tunnelling people isn't just about getting people lynched, it's also about seeing how they react under pressure so that you can sort them. And I haven't cut anything out of my posting; I'm still posting normally. I'm also not trying to make it sound like you're tailoring your reads towards me specifically, my point was that you came across as though you backed down on a read based on pressure due to the sudden nature of the read change (which I'm now assuming is not AI for you but I'll make sure to check your meta at some point since both you and math have stated that part of my points against you are over your playstyle). Finally, I think my mistakes are neither scum bs nor honest town mistakes. They are simple human error.

You've made

multiple

errors analysing my posts. You may not be scumreading all that I'm doing but the fact you went after me for changing my read tells me you didn't care what I did, you were just going to hound me on it. As for changing reads based on being pressured on them, I am actually against that since I have a bad memory of one time I did that and the person I let go, went to 4p mylo as scum and won. As such I'm rather disinclined to drop a read just because someone says "that's wrong". fyi the quick read change is a thing that has only happened in select few games iirc so if you need those I'll point you to them. How are your mistakes simpple human error? I'd think you'd try to improve if you actually cared to sort me.

[Gamma Emerald]

Also @Anen do you mean me when you say brass