A Dance with Dragons Mafia: A New Dawn!

[BBmolla]

##Unvote:
##Vote: Salamence

Keeping our choose where it is for now. Think salamence is most likely a better idea than BVO at the moment.

Is your friend caught up?

[Eddard Stark]

The Drowned God is a sea deity worshiped solely by the Ironborn in Westeros. The religion of the Drowned God is old, dating back to before the Andal Invasion. The Andal invaders of the Iron Islands converted to the local religion rather than supplant it with the Seven as they did in the south of Westeros. The Drowned God religion supports the ironmen's naval, pirate culture.

Day 1, Votecount 37

SnowStorm (1) - Feysal
Minimum (2) - Salamence20, Hasdgfas
Salamence20 (7) - Amrun, Minimum, bvoigt, Mastermind of Sin, Shadow1psc, BBmolla, Shinori
Feysal (1) - Starbuck
Shinori (1) - Staeg
Shadow1psc (2) - StefanB, Lyanna Stark

bvoigt (8) - Plum's Yo Mamma, greenknight, SnowStorm, Dolorous Edd, Tyene Sand, Pandora, MagnaofIllusion, Benmage

Jal (1) - DCLXVI
StefanB (1) - Regfan

Not Voting (4):

Mockingjaye, kortul, Plessiezrus, Jal

With 28 alive it takes 15 to lynch.

• Deadline
  : 3rd September at 11:59pm Ireland time. (GMT+1)
  
• Countdown to deadline
  : (expired on 2012-09-03 18:59:59)
  
• MJ may be V/la for a hurricane.

CHOOSE THE AVENGERS

Tyene Sand (1) - Feysal
Dolorous Edd (2) - hasdgfas, Jal

Feysal (7) - Salamence20, Bvoigt, greenknight, Shinori, DCLXVI, Dolorous Edd, Benmage

Hasdgfas (1) - Shadow1psc
Minimum (4) - Regfan, StefanB, Lyanna Stark, MagnaofIllusion
Starbuck (1) - Starbuck
Shadow1psc (1) - Mockingjaye, kortul
greenknight (5) - Plum's Yo Mamma, Minimum, Tyene Sand, Pandora, Plessiezarus
kortul (3) - Mastermind of Sin, BBmolla, Staeg

Not Choosing (2):

Amrun, SnowStorm

With 28 alive it takes 15 to 'Choose'. Once a choose has 15 votes it will be locked in but not end day.

ANY MISTAKES MAY BE POINTED OUT.

Albert B. Rampage replaces hasdgfas. Thanks!

[SnowStorm]

Stuff like this post. Mostly. (For the record, my first game was 82.5, not 82.75).

Ever since Game 86 you seem to have made an effort into improving your game, which I'm not seeing here. As Tammy pointed out, most of the time you are playing, even when you do not have a suspect, you're in the discussion asking questions and being engaged in the discernment of alignment of players by expressing opinions or sharing thoughts.

Modding a game is evidently very different from playing one, which gives me a different perspective from the unspoiled one I get as a regular player. As a mod, already knowing your aligment, I get to see how you go about approaching the game and engaging the other players.

The way you seem to be pressing the few cases you made seems uncommitted and un-explanatory, coming from you. You aren't going over posts or being proactive. Except for calling Tammy town in 560 you weren't even invested the least in identifying players that you thought were town until called out for it. This is behavior I find disparing from somebody who's played more than 20 games (if my count is right).

I do not think you could be overwhelmed by the volume of posts in this thread. You've participated in large Westerosi games that require much more attention than this one, yet you strike me as trying to ride the wave here.

Now that you've claimed Mason, do you not accept you might have been acting differently from the way you usually do?

~ Zar.

My first game was 82.5 too, but that doesn't really count as a game since it imploded... anyway...

You're right, I always try to improve my game, that doesn't mean it actually improves... I can't be as engaged here as I am in Westeros though. First, the pace is much slower; in Westeros we're always on a rush to lynch, but the long days here encourage a more relaxed approach. Second, a lot of the arguments have unfamiliar meta in it; Third, it's day one... I don't think I've been as useless as it seemed. If I didn't push anyone harder is because I didn't feel confident enough about my reads. I still don't, in fact, I think very few people feel or felt confident about their scum reads.

About the town reads, I don't really see a point in giving them out or explaining them constantly. And yeah, I'm not overwhelmed (at least not with the amount of posts, more with the amount of meta...).

I don't think I acted that differently than I do at Westeros, but the environment is different and the game required a different approach.

[Regfan]

Sold on Salam being a decent alternative and much better than Bvoigt.

Unvote, Vote: Salam

MoS, read Post 1095, then explain to me why Kortul is scum.

Stefan is town bro.

Mind explaining the town-read on him for me, also explain your scum-read on Feysal because I'm not seeing that either.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I have landed.

Scum may tremble.

[BBmolla]

Welcome back.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I've seen her strategically lurk as scum before. Might not be the case right now but don't rule her out due to it.

She pretty much did in the recently finished Words with Scum game that Quilford ran (Mini Theme). Not sure if it is site-wide for her as of late or not but clearly it isn't anti-Scum meta for her.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I feel like Aegon landing in Westeros at page 45, but he's not part of the great Alliance.

[Staeg]

Choose: Kortul

Thanks for killing my town-read on you Staeg. Post 648 shows that Kortuls actually reading through the game super carefully looking for information, not just information to fabricate reasoning to vote people with but information that would better help him attain reads, it's a very town-motivated mindset and not one that scum take when replacing into a game. His overthrought in Post 795 about the usages of the second kill despite it being spoken by everyone prior to him comes across as him really wanting to state what's on his mind whereas as scum he'd know posting something such as that has potential for drawing fire towards him and know that there'd be no gaining in doing it. His Post 1000 is another townish-tell, previous post of his shows that he still suspects Snow despite his mason claim stating that the reasons he suspects him are still valid so him checking up on the likelihood of his claim being legitimate flavourish is very natural. His taking into account his reads on the wagons in Post 1073 is again a town-tell and his attempt to get more infromation on the bvoigt case is too. Also the fact that when reading through Shadow he didn't just state posts he disliked but also linked to one that he did in Post 1081 is a big town-tell, scum don't go into an ISO going 'how can i find them scum and town', not at all especially not when they're planning on voting the person.

The first tells are player-based tells, not alignment-based tells (I wouldn't do that as either alignment, tierce, on the other hand, probably would). Of the others, some are valid but don't cut it and other's aren't valid in multiball at all.

[Plums Yo Mamma]

Nacho, convince me your Kortul scum-read isn't bullshit.

I'd call Nacho in, but it's my kortul-scum read. Apparently I didn't read MoS' point against him in preview as well as I ought to have, though >.> (it's far from as strong as I read it; somehow I mentally read that as Shadow having a substantial lynch wagon when that's not actually the case, so). And pushing stupid would-be scumslips is at best moderately scummy, sad state of the world. So the strength of read in favor of kortul-scum I expressed in my previous post is considerably greater than it should be, upon reflection. Not convinced he's bleeding Town; just in case I did a brief read of his ISO and had at best mixed feelings. Nacho himself might feel otherwise; I hope to catch him and chat soon.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, read Post 1095, then explain to me why Kortul is scum.

At least one of your points ascribes Kortul waaaaaay more credit than I'm giving him...saying that he'd know better than to do something a certain way as scum doesn't hold a lot of weight with me.

Also, the possibility of multiball means that scum WOULD want to try and read people as scum AND town.

I'm not convinced.

[Eddard Stark]

Salamence20 has requested replacement

[Eddard Stark]

Iecerint replaces Salamence20. He may be replacing in later on with a hydra, I'll announce it if he is.

Gonna add 48 hours to the deadline because of this + all the replacements. Hopefully that's the last of the replacements.
Edit: make that 48, more convenient for me.

[Iecerint]

Hey guys, I'll probably not have a readthrough finished until Saturday at the earliest because I'm traveling to visit my grandparents for Labor Day weekend. I should have internet access while I'm there. I'll try to catch-up as soon as possible because I know deadline's close.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ugh. Scared scum or overwhelmed townie?

[Feysal]

Caught up. There are things I need to start doing, but first things first, I have my doubts about the mason claim. I said earlier that SnowStorm was suspicious because town should not be that passive, and this applies especially to a mason. The great thing about having an alignment confirmed partner is that even if you have trouble keeping up or establishing reads, you can always sheep or support those of your mason partner, knowing they are at the very least town-motivated. I don't think I have ever seen a mason or neighbor this apathetic. Still, I understand that a mason claim has a way of sorting itself out with time, so clearly there is no point keeping my vote there.

UNVOTE: SnowStorm

Unchoose: Tyene Sand

Meant to remove my choice earlier, but forgot.

Now, I promised a case on Starbuck, and here it is.

Starbuck

- You said first (before you picked yourself), that you would rather the Choice vig go in the hands of a VT. How did you expect to determine a person who is VT?

I know that I am a VT and that all I am is lynch fodder. So I hoped to do something useful.

So you have a low opinion of yourself, but you wanted to help. Since you were expendable, you decided the best way was to sacrifice yourself, and the whole time you talked about choosing town you meant yourself.

Check.

I only came forth about my role because I felt (and still feel) the Choose should go to a VT to see it through on the town's wishes.

You were worried about where the kill would land, and wanted to control it by having a town assassin take direction from the town.

Check.

I just would rather put my Choose vote on someone that could be trusted to follow through on the action rather than give it scum or a policy lynch.

This was the first time Starbuck indicated she wanted to choose town. According to her own words she meant herself, and thought of herself as lynchbait.

One hour into the game, with four votes on her.

Has anyone ever heard of town starting a pity party and going suicidal when the game has barely even begun? I don't believe it for an instant.

I'd rather not pre-determine the suicide vig's target, since town picks worse than random most of the time anyway due to scum input.

+1

Starbuck explicitly said she wanted the town to direct the assassin. So why is she supporting Tierce here, when she expresses the exact opposite opinion? This does not begin to make sense.

It is my firm belief that Starbuck is scum. She dug her own grave with a bad entrance post, got jumped on, and made up an explanation, contradicting herself in the process and culminating in the ultimate appeal to emotion of choosing herself. Ever since then her posting has been entirely defensive, first trying to show how others supposedly agreed with her, and later trying to patch the holes in her story. In all this time she has given no reads and done nothing constructive, while repeatedly promising to catch up. I have no idea why anyone would think her town.

I think you want to know because you want your team to know who not to fakeclaim as. That's what I'm getting from this.

Oh and by the way, the scum probably have false claims, so this makes no sense.

Also, can the choice please be Feysal? Pretty please? With a cherry on top?

Too tired to continue so I'll deal with this later, but in the meantime - have a look at the people on my wagon, and what they have said about me. Then ask yourself, are you sure you want to be associated with that kind of company? The way I see it, the only reason I even have a wagon at this point is because lurkers and replacements have parked their choices on me.

[bvoigt]

Bvoigt - I talked about Shinori a bit, but since you were his partner, you should know more. Anyway, he seems much more relaxed than any of the times I've seen him as scum. But, he hasn't posted enough for me to get a real read on him yet.

I think you're right, but I'll need to look more closely when I'm actually awake.

@Magna in #1013:

1. I had another catchup post through page 14, and then, IIRC, didn't find much to comment on in the next few pages.
2. What I'm saying is that

DCL

thought it was RVS. His exact words were "a silly RVS post."

Fuckit

Unvote Vote JAL

ALL ABOARD

Oh please, and you were just going after me for being on a "useless" wagon.

This post gives off scumvibes.

I also think the case Feysal just posted is scummy. Yes, Starbuck has probably been inconsistent. But I don't think it's a scum sort of inconsistency, if that makes any sense. And the use of the term "appeal to emotion" just sounds like he's throwing out a buzzword. I dunno-- hard to explain, I guess, but it sounds like this case is getting pushed with scum motivation.

[Tyene Sand]

kortul is acting like he typically does as town, and Salamence-slot is overwhelmed townie. Swing those wagons elsewhere, please.

Can you bullet for me the Sala case?

Meta is a big part of it. I've played with him and looked over the Kingdom Hearts game and he really did look town in both those games. There's also just a lack of scumhunting in his posts and recently he's simply gone completely inactive and basically not bothering to play. There are also a few statements that are clearly off (his original Feysalpost and "Hey!!! Someone understands me!!!! About time!!!") of a type that you'd expect Salascum to screw them up.

I disagree with just about everything in this post. Furthermore, knowing that he replaced out, can't you see how many freaking games he's playing?

...and now that I'm vaguely caught up on two new pages and had the pleasure of looking at VincentBR-avatar for a few moments, I'm returning to bed.

[Pandora]

Feysal, I think everyone other then you stopped caring about Starbuck twenty pages ago. You're about to get a chance to bloody shoot her if you're so convinced that you can't present an opinion on what we're actually talking about in the future of page 45. Quilford still thinks you're a scumbag and nothing makes me agree more then blanket unvotes and a case that you know no one gives a hell about right now. Who out of the actually possible people do you want to vote and choose? Choose being the big one for you since you gonna die right now.

bvoight: Speaking of buzzwords. How does that explanation about how Feysal's case is bad make him scum? What about DCL's post gives you scumvibes? You're making people fill in the blanks for you.

I expect Salatown to screw up just as much as Salascum personally.

[Amrun]

I'm tired of feeling so guilty about this game.

I was SO EXCITED to be in this game... So excited. But I should have said no to the replacement because I didn't have time - and then unexpected things cropped up and this became 45 pages I can't read.

I mean, I would eventually read it, but every time I sit down to it, I just can't. I'm too pre-occupied with life and I don't feel like playing mafia right now. It's only fair to this game that I cut my losses and let you have someone that has the time to devote to this.

I am SO, so sorry. I feel terrible.

Mod: Replace out

Hopefully this slot gets someone who will do it justice.

[Pandora]

Would anyone else like to replace out at deadline? >.>;
You know, my experience in GvE suggests we should just lynch the replacements indiscriminately.

[Amrun]

I can stay until deadline if people would like. I will do what the game wants me to, to be honest. I would stay in if people really wanted me to, I just figured everyone wasfed up with waiting.

[kortul]

Finished the ISO of Shadow1psc. Out of his 70 posts, more than 2/3 are about nothing (that's like two extra pages to read). I just hate this style.

So you can concede that more than 20 of my posts are helpful

Where did you find the word "helpful"? If you had 20 helpful posts, you would skyrocket as a town read for me. Those posts were defense, conversations, comments, etc (ie something, that not only you may be interested in).

Uhhh...Shadow had more votes than chooses...why the fuck would you be comfortable choosing him but lament the fact that he doesn't have enough votes to be a viable wagon?

In fact, to further illustrate this point, there are two vote wagons of 8 and 6 right now. There are also two choose wagons of 8 and 6. The competition for a Shadow wagon for both voting and choosing is

exactly

the same. The only difference is that Shadow has more votes than chooses. So why the fuck would you say his vote wagon had no chance and then go ahead and choose him, which by your own logic has even

less

of a chance at succeeding?

Hmm, i can swear i saw more choose votes on him when yesterday morning i was deciding whom to ISO. And didn't check this when i was done. *shrug* Then just consider this is as a statement of whom i find scummy (like your choose on me now), when i die those doing my ISO will be sure where my suspicions were. I am not choosing Feysal, will be doing ISO on greenknight today, so until then my choose vote will stay on Shadow. And i definitely not starting yet another vote wagon, spreading the votes close to deadline (read one of my previous posts).

And to answer your second point - Choose wagons don't require 15 votes, Vote wagons do.

@

Plums Yo Mamma

- i don't know whether the thing i noticed is a slip or not, since i don't have enough statistical data on the answers. From a logical point of view i find that wording suspicious, and my read is partially based on it. But i am not going to push it as a slip, everyone can decide for himself.

Sadly, there was not a single answer to my question. Just in case it was just skimmed, i will repeat it again:

can those who vote bvoigt

explain, why he is more scummy than Salamance20 (or why Salamance20 is town for you, if that's the case)? If this is meta based, are there clear examples of bvoigt!scum or Salamance!town that you can link to?

[greenknight]

Prod dodge. Don't want to burden the game with more replacements, Should be more free next week.

[kortul]

Deadline extended for 2 days is a good thing, taking into acctount that 25% (7 out of 28) of the initial crew is already replaced, and Amrun is on way out as well (and Day 1 isn't finished yet).

Please, anyone out there who is thinking to replace as well, wait until the Day 2, at least.

If you replace now, do you really believe that your replacement will do a better job of catching up through 45 pages with 4 and a half days remaing?

Also, it occured to me, that while the majority of players agreed that CHOOSE is better used as a second lynch, we are not exactly using it this way. Both competing wagons in VOTE section right now have more votes than wagons in CHOOSE section. And obviously, competing wagons consist of different players. If one wagon simply jumped to the CHOOSE section, it would be the leading wagon there.

If we really want to use CHOOSE as a second lynch

, the correct approach would be to determine the VOTE lynch first, and once it would be obvious who would be lynched, stop at L-2 or L-1, when someone is ready to hammer, and start on working on second lynch in a CHOOSE section (with a pool consisting of one less player). That way, if the second leading wagon was real, and no one was compromising just to be there, it would just move to the choose section. But it will have to compete there with already existing wagons, and a real second lynch would be found.

Scum won't be able to completely disrupt the process by hammering earlier in vote section, since CHOOSE lynch doesn't need 15+ votes, and will happen anyway, just with one of the current leading wagons.