NY 143: Mafia on the Gulf Coast (Game Over!)

[bvoigt]

What makes you think NC is town?

His opening was very protown.

What about it, though?

Proposing to policy lynch is protown

Policy lynching itself is protown, or just proposing one?

[Furcolow]

Proposing one definitely is, and in and of itself it can be

[bvoigt]

I don't know if it's a towntell, though. It would be pretty easy for him to say that as scum.

[Isa]

It's like the votehopping towntell I use. It WOULD be easy to say as scum, but risky because someone always gets flak for it. Townies shouldn't care about how they look (I FINALLY understand why they say that), which makes them take risks like votehopping during RVS, suggesting policy lynches, etc. I don't have enough confidence in the suggest-a-policy-lynch to have it as a tell, but I can see why it can be used as such.

Actually going on with a policy lynch is a different thing though. I've never seen a successful policy lynch in a game I've played, only suggestions.

[ConSpiracy]

Small catch-up post.

They

are

in order of biggest to smallest, and were when I posted the vote count. - ToD

I'm sorry, that was a stupid mistake of myself.

@ ConSpiracy: Your only reason for voting Amrum is that you 'love his defense', which is obvious sarcasm since you voted him. Why not question him further, or question Isa for defending Amrum, or even say why you 'love' his defense? Why not

back up your vote

?

I don't feel for questioning further when Pine already did that.
Also, it is Amrun, not Amrum.

VOTE: CONSPIRACY

IIOA, tagging a quick vote with a lengthy request, easy cover.

Or I genuinely think the votecounts are a bit hard to quickread.

Furcolow has been informed that the game has started.

And thank you for the town read on Furcolow.

Mist Beauty

Amrun's vote was without a doubt hypocritical, and pretty bad, but not necessarily scummy. Kiwi and isa are more scummy that Amrun in my eyes. Kiwi seems to be defending/distancing already. I'm getting a vibe that she has too much knowledge.

I'm not sure why really, but the "knowledge" reason sets off alarm bells with me.

Also i don't know what he wanted to do with the Amrun post, but it reads as unnecessary mudslinging to me. Stirring up emotions, why not?

Sampson

I feel obligated to place an RVS vote.

Vote: Princess Kiwi

because kiwis frighten me.

But since it doesn't feel like RVS in here:

Unvote

--
Hm. The most striking thing to me so far is Isa's townread on Amrun. Mostly because I don't see how RVS vote hopping is a towntell (it's not much of anything, really). I don't think Isa defending Amrun implies a connection between the two, but to make such a statement as severe as a townread with such little content in the game so far is pretty...bizarre. It makes her posts in defense of Amrun forced and less genuine.

Vote: Isa

This post is a classic newbscum post. First he wants to make sure that he passed RVS and after that he targets someone for having an early town read, for newbs an easy reason to target someone when it is not a scum tell.

Alabaska J

Amrum seems to have early connections with three players now:

Jumping on a PL of Lowell, 1st connection, 2nd connection the minor bussing of Pine (which, I will be keeping an eye out to see where this goes), and Isa's defense of Amrum.

Very interesting so far.

why bring this up? what do you make of "early connections" by themselves?

No, I don't care to provide quotes.

really man c'mon. how am i supposed to interpret things through your eyes

Why do I have to give content? I'm voting Amrun. If she flips town then Isa is prob scum. I like Pine when he's not flaking on games.

if only it were this simple…i'm not sure whether to take you seriously or not

Hint: I've posted more content than anyone else so far.

i think princess kiwi would like a word with you. maybe pine and nero cain as well.

Hm. The most striking thing to me so far is Isa's townread on Amrun. Mostly because I don't see how RVS vote hopping is a towntell (it's not much of anything, really). I don't think Isa defending Amrun implies a connection between the two, but to make such a statement as severe as a townread with such little content in the game so far is pretty...bizarre. It makes her posts in defense of Amrun forced and less genuine.

Vote: Isa

now this is podracing. i enjoyed playing with you in that game we did. sorry i bungled the track oh well. good post btw i'll go reread isa now

I've voting Amrun b/c she's a woman

i'm gonna just quote this out of context whenever you accuse me of saying something stupid for the rest of this game lol

All days are equally important but they should never drag. Discussion for the sake of discussion kills town intrest and helps scum lurk.

very true BUT we are 3 pages in. post this when day one reaches ten or so pages.

Furc is a crapshoot. He can do well or really poorly, and I'd like to give him a chance first.

furc is a crapshoot for the same reason a stopped clock is right twice a day, IMO. he was scum in the only game i've played with him though so i guess he may play better/differently as town.

My cat died today, I'm VERY bitchy as well.

*snip*

I'll stop now.

RIP

All of these points he pointed out are either very easy to make or are post filler. This way the post likes like a good catch-up, when it actually isn't.

I'm getting a vibe that she has too much knowledge.

what does this even MEAN. princess kiwi and pine seem like prototypical town v town on day one. how can you be so sure she is distancing? also defending isn't a scumtell. what do you call it when you write a rebuttal of someone's point against you?

This agressiveness feels fake and makes it seem he is actually active scumhunting when he doesn't do a thing with this point.

...

...

...You're seriously looking at lining up lynches on Page Three? And asking others to do the same?

Unvote
Vote: PKiwi

this post is gonna get my lynched if kiwi flips scum, but you are going full-retard on this case. she's obviously questioning him on his policy lynching stance, correctly implying "what will you do when all you've done is kill a townie"

This shows that he is quite a bit thinking about avoiding to be lynched.

And this is not only in his catch up post. Ít's in all his posts. However the biggest thing that his posts show is that he isn't scumhunting. He doesn't show suspicions.

Vote: Alabaska J

With Sampson and Mist as second and third.

[Alabaska J]

The day ending in a policy lynch is was always very slim. ABJ and Kiwi (off the top of me head) thinking that it was actually going to happen is just stupid and pretty scummy to defend Lowell like that.

there's a reason people don't usually make jokes in games…it's pretty difficult to tell the difference sometimes.

See,

your

defense of Amrun does come off as a bit scummy. It's just too coordinated and determined,

too townie is a fallacy, fyi

I don't think that's Too Townie. Usually, I believe that fallacy refers to a player whose overall play seems extremely obvtown. This is about a defense that seemed too purposeful.

I wasn't calling it Too Townie, incidentally. I was calling it coordinated and purposeful. Here again is where comparison between Isa and Kiwi makes sense. Kiwi's attacks on me seemed to have a direction and purpose; she was trying to dismantle my whole offense, rather than countering my arguments while remaining skepticism. Isa was belligerently countering specific points while remaining neutral regarding Amrun.

gotcha my bad

Vote hopping in rvs is completely, 100% invalid to the point of silliness. It's also not a scumtell anyway.

What is opportunistic about my voting?

I jumped off of a seemingly viable policy lynch option on someone I'd dearly love to policy lynch (and have plenty of meta backing up how much he fucking annoys me and other lynch attempts out of sheer annoyance, sometimes successful)

to vote for someone who made an awkward RVS

.

These statements contradict each other me thinks. You think "RVS" hoping is NOT scummy but you think "akward RVS posts" are scummy.

vote: Amrun

Do you truly see that as a contradiction? RVS votehopping and awkward posting are clearly different things.

VOTE: Nero Cain

True RVS posts are useless and hollow. To find one thing in RVS scummy and another RVS thing to not be scummy is a contradiction.

what?

Hi.

unvote

Here's the deal: In large games, I'm useless on Day One. I know this, I admit it.

If we can just get through day one silliness, I'll be much better then.

See you later.

unvote, vote: Shattered Viewpoint

150 and 152 look like deliberate stalling.

fos mist

woah content from lowell? oddly enough, my meta-related gut tells me this means he's scum, but i'll ignore that for now and just agree.

150 and 152 look like deliberate stalling.

fos mist

No vote?

Seriously, Lowell can die and I'm totally cool with this. Chances are he flips scum.

this reads to me as scum trying to push what they see as an easy lynch. i like my vote where it is on ShatteredViewpoint more though, so

FoS: Amrun

for now

I want to lynch Alabaska J, Princess Kiwi, Zombie Pug, Shattered Viewpoint, or Sampson by the end of page 5

glad to know your stance. now how about some reasons?

What makes you think NC is town?

His opening was very protown.

What about it, though?

Proposing to policy lynch is protown

anyone else find this ironic?

[Alabaska J]

*snip*
All of these points he pointed out are either very easy to make or are post filler. This way the post likes like a good catch-up, when it actually isn't.

well, that's just like, your opinion man. i read people's posts, then respond to them when i feel a need. i don't understand how this makes it a bad catch-up.

I'm getting a vibe that she has too much knowledge.

what does this even MEAN. princess kiwi and pine seem like prototypical town v town on day one. how can you be so sure she is distancing? also defending isn't a scumtell. what do you call it when you write a rebuttal of someone's point against you?

This agressiveness feels fake and makes it seem he is actually active scumhunting when he doesn't do a thing with this point.

how is this post not scumhunting? i brought to everyone's attention a flaw in an argument that makes a response seem scummy. surely i don't need to change my vote with every post i make to point out that i find something suspicious.

...

...

...You're seriously looking at lining up lynches on Page Three? And asking others to do the same?

Unvote
Vote: PKiwi

this post is gonna get my lynched if kiwi flips scum, but you are going full-retard on this case. she's obviously questioning him on his policy lynching stance, correctly implying "what will you do when all you've done is kill a townie"

This shows that he is quite a bit thinking about avoiding to be lynched.

are you saying you aren't? it should be every good town players responsibility not to be lynched. this kind of post is exactly what a scum player would try to make a case out of. i feel only mafia bring up "wanting to survive" as being a scumtell. everyone wants to avoid being lynched, but it's more explicit in the win condition of mafia, so it's an easy misrep to make. i defended kiwi loads because the case against her was pretty rubbish, so i'm just acknowledging how bad that would look if she flipped scum. a poor case can be made against any player; an inexperienced townie can make bad cases against scum, but knowing their alignments doesn't all of a sudden make his or her case good just because he or she happened to be right. i just wanted to say that i was more playing devil's advocate than actually defending princess kiwi because i thought she was town or something.

And this is not only in his catch up post. Ít's in all his posts. However the biggest thing that his posts show is that he isn't scumhunting. He doesn't show suspicions.

Vote: Alabaska J

With Sampson and Mist as second and third.

seeing as i'm voting someone, i'm not sure how you can say i'm not showing suspicions. this argument just reeks of scum trying find someone to lynch and grasping at straws. i want ShatteredViewpoint's horrific cop-out to be discussed more than it is being, so i'll refrain from voting, but i'll make it explicit so you don't have to (gasp) infer anything. i find you suspicious.

[Alabaska J]

also, lol @ your sig ConSpiracy. that sounds like something i would put in someone's signature if they left they're account open on my computer or something

[Trumpet of Doom]

Vote Count:

Princess Kiwi (3, L-8): Pine, Lowell, PeregrineV
Shattered Viewpoint (3, L-8): Isa, Furcolow, Alabaska J
Lowell (2, L-9): Amrun, Nero Cain
Amrun (1, L-10): Zombeh-Pug
Mist Beauty (1, L-10): Tajun
Zombeh-Pug (1, L-10): Haze
Super Smash Bros. Fan (1, L-10): mb53
Isa (1, L-10): Sampson
Nero Cain (1, L-10): bvoigt
ConSpiracy (1, L-10): Bogre
Alabaska J (1, L-10): ConSpiracy

Not Voting (5): Super Smash Bros. Fan, Princess Kiwi, MacDougall, Shattered Viewpoint, Mist Beauty

11 votes are required to lynch, 6 at deadline.

Deadline:

Wednesday, November 30, ~11:59 PM US CST (GMT-6)

[Princess Kiwi]

Okay, catch up post coming up in a few. Quiet a bit to say. And ...walls are kind of my thing. It gets me lynched a lot, so I'll try and shorten it down from now on >.<

[Princess Kiwi]

Zombie:

Post #154. Why the vote on Amrun with no explanation? And- I find it strange that you turn the argument of being aggressive straight back onto Haze, when that was pretty aggressive yourself. I believe Haze may have been trying to ask: why bother stating that you used a die roll in the first place? That kind of takes the 'random' out of the vote, and makes it seem like you're trying to be careful...

Amrun:

158: This post is very suspicious. You haven't done any scum hunting at all this game, just defending yourself from Pine and attacking Pine as well, and pushing a PL of Lowell. 8 pages of content and virtually no scumhunting, just pushing for a Lowell lynch? That's worthy of a

FOS

.

Post 159 seems pro-town in my eyes, asking for players to stop the insults, placing a vote, and using a 'case' to back it up, while keeping it short and concise...something I have issues doing no matter what my alliance is :p

Furcolow:

Post 166: What about his opening was 'terrible?' Kind of need more reasoning than that to want to lynch a person, or at least convince others why you want to lynch that person . Really having a hard time with the last statement, because whenever I have a player going after me for

that

particular reason 'I'm too lazy to read them! Get her out!', it usually turns into: "She's on the right track, use the walls as a reason to get her out." Or trying to set up an easy lynch.

1.If Kiwi is scum, though, 2.so is Sampson. 3.I would be looking into Isa too from that post he made, I feel like he is scum with one of them.

1. Trying to wiggle yourself into my lynch without any real evidence, giving yourself the ability to say 'I suspected her from the beginning'. 2.Then setting up a Sampson lynch based off of meta, without giving reasons why. 3. Keeping your options open to Isa without explaning your reads on why you think he's scum, nor specifying which post you're referring to. Obviously trying to seem like you're scumhunting without providing actual content.

HOS

I found a better candidate then all of them, though:

Proof that you're trying to set up lynches. I wonder what your 'scumdar' looks like three pages from now? I'll have to remember this post later.

Also...going off topic with mod during day phase isn't suspicious in itself, sorry.

Post 167 &168- if you want to lynch Alabaska, why not keep your vote on him?

172- then why don't you pressure him?

Post 174- there's the pressure. What happened to Alabaska though? Jumping from lynchee to lynchee.

ConSpiracy:

Post 179- I see, though it would have been nice to have content behind the vote rather than just a vote by itself. Also, if it's classic newbscum post, why not at least place a FOS or IGMEOU?

Alabaska:

Post 180: Quoting the same thing everybody else quotes is an easy way to jump on a growing wagon. Seems really opportunistic of you. The FOS seems protown though, so kind of neutral. I'm going to re-ask this as well because I want an answer from

conspiracy

how is this post not scumhunting?

In reference to ConSpiracy's 179.

i feel only mafia bring up "wanting to survive" as being a scumtell.

I'm afraid I have to disagree. Scum are more worried about being lynched than townies, especially in larger games. Of course nobody likes to get lynched, but it's not only mafia who bring up the 'wanting to survive'. I've done it in other games as townie as well.

Pine:

Basically what I understand, your issue with me is that you think I was trying to 'dismantle' your attacks against Amrun. I'm going to state this again: I was questioning your attacks to not only see how far you would be willing to go with it, but I was also curious about your case against Amrun. How much thought you'd put into it, if it was more of a pressure thing. I think I've proven in this thread that I question everything I see, and poke holes in cases to see how far people are willing to go with them. Doesn't mean I'm scum, just means I'm scumhunting.

Now that you've gotten through the small wall, these players need to pay attention to the following:

Amrun:

Suspicions? Do you honestly see Lowell as scummy, or are you just pushing for a PL along with Nero?

Nero:

Same question as Amrun.

Lowell:

More content, and I expect answers to my previous questions. Explain your scumdar with actual reasons please.

Mist:

I expect answers to my questions in my previous actual post. You ignored them the first time, I'm going to keep asking until you answer. Also it's page 8.

Furcolow:

Try adding actual content and placing actual pressure on people you want to pressure?

That's about it so far. Suspicions lie with Lowell, Furcolow, and Mist thus far. Town reads are Pine, ConSpiracy, Haze. Neutral on the rest.


I'm going to wait for responses before placing any votes.

[Sampson]

Sampson

I feel obligated to place an RVS vote.

Vote: Princess Kiwi

because kiwis frighten me.

But since it doesn't feel like RVS in here:

Unvote

--
Hm. The most striking thing to me so far is Isa's townread on Amrun. Mostly because I don't see how RVS vote hopping is a towntell (it's not much of anything, really). I don't think Isa defending Amrun implies a connection between the two, but to make such a statement as severe as a townread with such little content in the game so far is pretty...bizarre. It makes her posts in defense of Amrun forced and less genuine.

Vote: Isa

This post is a classic newbscum post. First he wants to make sure that he passed RVS and after that he targets someone for having an early town read, for newbs an easy reason to target someone when it is not a scum tell.

The truth is I just like the silly reasoning portion of RVS. I was just having some fun. It was obvious to me that RVS was just about over by the time I posted. And of course I'm going to find it suspicious if I disagree with the basis for an early game townread.

[Alabaska J]

Alabaska:

Post 180: Quoting the same thing everybody else quotes is an easy way to jump on a growing wagon. Seems really opportunistic of you. The FOS seems protown though, so kind of neutral. I'm going to re-ask this as well because I want an answer from

conspiracy

how is this post not scumhunting?

In reference to ConSpiracy's 179.

i feel only mafia bring up "wanting to survive" as being a scumtell.

I'm afraid I have to disagree. Scum are more worried about being lynched than townies, especially in larger games. Of course nobody likes to get lynched, but it's not only mafia who bring up the 'wanting to survive'. I've done it in other games as townie as well.

scum are more likely to be acutely aware of the need to survive but that doesn't mean a townie can't be as well. are you saying "wanting to stay alive" is anything other than a nulltell?

[MacDougall]

When I am a townie, I argue against my lynch til the ends of the Earth because getting myself lynched is failing the team. Going quietly is a bad idea and wanting to survive should be the natural reaction from a town player. In my mind the scum are more likely to make a "fine lynch me what do I care" style post to double bluff the town. I find those that argue to stay alive are more often town than not, especially when they are heavily wagoned and still arguing because by that stage the scum has signed off and his buddies are on the bus.

[Princess Kiwi]

No, I was saying 'wanting to survive'

is

a nulltell, it can come from both townies and scum.

[MacDougall]

Lol what a redundant thing to say. We are playing Mafia in which the aim of the game is effectively to not get lynched. You have effectively said that nobody wants to get lynched. Riveting stuff.

[PeregrineV]

Sorry, not enough time this weekend, will catch up Monday.

[Princess Kiwi]

Well yeah, I said that nobody wants to get lynched because soooomebody (Alabaska) brought up the 'point' that it's more likely to come from scum than town, or at least scum are more likely to use it than town. Read the whole posts please.

[bvoigt]

Scum are more worried about being lynched than townies, especially in larger games.

No, I was saying 'wanting to survive'

is

a nulltell, it can come from both townies and scum.

Huh? These two statements look contradictory to me.

[Amrun]

Amrun: Suspicions? Do you honestly see Lowell as scummy, or are you just pushing for a PL along with Nero?

I have a lot of catching up today, but doing an early Thanksgiving with the in-laws today, so maybe I'll get to it tonight or maybe tomorrow night.

Right now, going to answer the above question since it was nice and bolded and easy to see, but just letting everyone know if anything else was addressed to me, I haven't seen it yet, but I will eventually.

I do find Lowell scummy, yes. I wanted to see if a PL early wagon would get a rise out of him, and it did. He tries a lot harder as scum. He's also doing derpy shit like FoSing without moving his non-serious vote to a serious candidate, and that's definitely scummy.

I also resent the implication that I haven't done any scumhunting, because I most certainly have. I took a lot of flak for it, too. But whatever.

[Bogre]

I feel obligated to place an RVS vote.

Vote: Princess Kiwi

because kiwis frighten me.

But since it doesn't feel like RVS in here:

Unvote

--
Hm. The most striking thing to me so far is Isa's townread on Amrun. Mostly because I don't see how RVS vote hopping is a towntell (it's not much of anything, really). I don't think Isa defending Amrun implies a connection between the two, but to make such a statement as severe as a townread with such little content in the game so far is pretty...bizarre. It makes her posts in defense of Amrun forced and less genuine.

Vote: Isa

This statement sounds forced itself. A lot of explanation to say that he thinks Isa's towntell is scummy. Secondly, why does a statement that 'severe' make her posts look forced and not genuine? I think mafia have a higher tendency to dissemble and use soft language, rather than make strong statements.

[Bogre]

Borge is actually a good player just a massive lurker.

Med student! :/ Sometimes reading and posting a huge block of text is daunting when you have 300+ pages of text to read for tests.

[Bogre]

mod do you go to rice university

if you don't wanna say out loud in the thread just pm me but your location is baker which is a college at rice and this is a gulf coast of texas themed game so i'm just curious

I'm a Rice alum, thought the same thing.

[Bogre]

i think we have a winner in this argument.

unvote

looks like RVS ended before i could post

Read moar, guys. He unvoted in the same post.

Personally, I don't like that. If you're voting and unvoting in the same post, it just means you're leaving that vote there for some structural/flow of consciousness reason, not that your vote has any sort of point at all, because if you ended with a clear stance before you posted you wouldn't bother with a pointless vote/unvote.

Secondly, him ending WITHOUT voting at all is not a good sign; a pagelength of post analysis and his opinions haven't pushed him to the point of offering a vote?

[Bogre]

UNVOTE VOTE SHATTERED VIEWPOINT

Withdrawn vote definitely deserves some discussion.