NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[chamber]

all that*

[chamber]

I'm not actually all the opposed to a lynch on her. I think a vig on her would be excellent. I'd just rather people I actively suspect get lynched?

Pretty fucking convenient that you've positioned yourself to never be able to actively suspect DGB then, huh?

I'm fairly sure I expressed this in mcbeth mafia as well where I was town. At the very least that's where I first realized our reads on each other were worthless. She reads looking for emotional consistency and is wildly inconsistent in other ways. I find it unfollowable. On the other hand I don't think my emotion comes through my posts all that reliably, which makes her reads on me pretty meaningless.

[chamber]

I'm not actually all the opposed to a lynch on her. I think a vig on her would be excellent. I'd just rather people I actively suspect get lynched?

Pretty fucking convenient that you've positioned yourself to never be able to actively suspect DGB then, huh?

Also I mean, there is actively defending someone (something I've certainly not done on the behalf of dgb) and then there is just not wanting my actions to directly lead to them being the default lynch.

[chamber]

I already wrote a post to you, I think abr and you both thought it was to abr though, I got ninja'd like 3 times.

[chamber]

Ok bud. I think I was one of the first people to bring up Yos as a serious scum consideration. And if I see the votes on him instead of her, I will move to him. But sotty is higher than number 3, at least until PJ explicitly claims masons with her or my reading of their isos sufficiently points to that fact, AND the one with the more viable wagon. I think I've even used the same reasoning earlier in the game.

[chamber]

"No, look, I did this once when I was town!" Self-meta is worst-meta. Unimpressed. Thanks for finally engaging with me though I was starting to feel pretty ignored by you.

See, I'm not saying I can't be scum because I did it as town. I'm saying your reason is dumb because I've done it as town. That's perfectly valid self meta.

[chamber]

How dare I explain the genesis of me thinking that I can't read DGB when questioned on it being convenient!

[chamber]

I was tempted by PJ's argument. What I liked less that when people (you and someone else, iirc) engaged him about the form of the argument, he retreated into generalities, i.e. that the argument was made by PJ, as if that was all the information that could be relevant.

Yes, I also had an issue with that at the time. But him retreating into generalities is explained by his actual reasoning being a secret mason read on sotty?

[chamber]

DrippingGoofball has sidestepped the

biggest

problems with her play in her post, and instead tries to focus on how she is "hunting scum" by focusing on players who lynched LoudmouthLee and players who are voting for her.

1.)

DrippingGoofball, how often -- as

Scum

-- have you pointed out in-thread that somebody

might

be a power role? How often do you do that as

Town

?

2.)

DrippingGoofball, please explain your Day One reasons for voting for Porochaz and Untrod Tripod. It seems you have still failed to give any.

3.)

DrippingGoofball,

why

would you prefer a No Lynch over a LoudmouthLee lynch? It is not like you don't understand basic mafia theory.

~

DrippingGoofball, you are

more

than free to post an analysis of the game. But I am not going to give you an extra game Day (or whatever) to do so -- no stalling will be permitted. In the meantime I am going to heartily encourage votes on you. Dance whatever dance you're going to dance.

I really dislike that post.

But nooooo chamber never defended DGB

I was right to dislike that post. He was defending Undo by attacking DGB. He even admits it later. Of course it was because him and undo are masons, but >_>.

[chamber]

Because enough of the game has played with him to know that hes often mislynchbait?

[chamber]

Anyway, a ton of people are defending him incredibly hardcore

No they haven't been? Who other than VitR and weird Albert whims?

[chamber]

Unvote Vote OGML

[chamber]

I haven't been defending CES so much as I've been dismissing points against him that are just wrong. I'm unsure about his alignment, but I know him well enough to know that the things I called out as being alignment neutral were alignment neutral. Also as I said before, post 1572 was about you. I found you choosing to not read CES in context at odds with your previous claims, and thus scummy.

[chamber]

I haven't asked anyone to dismiss their reads of CES?

[chamber]

chamber does a lot of talking about he isn't defending the people he keeps voicing concern about votes for etc

I've literally never voiced concern over CES votes.

[chamber]

but it's different from both his town and scum meta.

I would second this, I'm not comfortable calling him either atm.

[chamber]

Right now I think I'm sad that we aren't lynching bookitty.

[chamber]

Right now I think I'm sad that we aren't lynching bookitty.

Right now I'm sad that you're on a wagon that apparently started after the last time I was able to check the thread on Sunday. You do know that we're on a deadline, right?

The wagon I was on was a mason (again) would you rather I had kept my vote there?

[chamber]

Unvote vote dgb

[chamber]

Is anyone else concerned by Porochaz?

Other than the brigade of me you and dgb? I don't think so.

[chamber]

Huh, one of my posts I made last night doesn't seem to be here, weird.

It was something like this:

I haven't been defending CES so much as I've been dismissing points against him that are just wrong. I'm unsure about his alignment, but I know him well enough to know that the things I called out as being alignment neutral were alignment neutral.

Chamber, when you "dismiss points against someone", when you argue that a scum tell against that person is actually null, that means you are defending that person. Anything that you do to try to reduce the odds of a person being lynched, or to respond to attacks against them, or whatever, is defending them, just like anything you do to go after a person or increase the chances of them being lynched is attacking them. There's nothing inherently scummy about either, of course. But usually people only defend people that they have a town read on, because if you defend someone and they flip scum, it looks really bad for you.

If you had a null read on him, why were you defending him so hard? I understand the arguments you were making, and I don't have a problem with them, but why did you choose to make them in defense of CES?

chamber does a lot of talking about he isn't defending the people he keeps voicing concern about votes for etc

I've literally never voiced concern over CES votes.

You've been actively defending CES for basically the entire game, chamber. And not just against me, either. The fact that you're now trying to deny that just makes it look worse.

I'm like 5 pages behind atm, so forgive me if this is dated.

Nuance is important. Obviously the results of some of my actions was defending CES. But I don't have the goal of defending CES, if I did I would have attacked a lot more of the points against him. What I was doing was dismantling the points I knew absolutely to be wrong. If he is going to get lynched I'm not going to let it be for reasons I know are bullshit.

[chamber]

Caught up now and sad. Oh well.

[chamber]

Its interesting to ask why they stopped being painful. That fight on the surface seemed to have nothing to do with CES being lynched or not.

[chamber]

And you were voting CES over her in spite of that because??

[chamber]

VitaminR is also still so, so scum. Yes, VitR, you were buddying CES, and the fact that he flipped town actually proves that point not the other way around. You snowed him (along with chamber) and he was your pet townie right up until he became expendable as a counterwagon to your buddy DGB.

CES said this yesterday, but since he's been mislynched now perhaps it bears repeating; VitR hasn't gotten any town points from me (not did he get any from CES) for his 'buddying'. He even correctly deduced that that was the case.

[chamber]

Vote STD

[chamber]

I'm willing to vote anyone in the {boo, STD, yos} set.

[chamber]

CES being mislynched often actually suggests nothing about his alignment in this game

What it says is that people who don't know him well can't read him for shit, so you should have listened to me + vitR + porochaz when we were saying he wasn't actually doing anything particularly scummy for him.

[chamber]

chamber why were you willing to vote DGB at deadline yesterday but now she is off your lynch list yet again?

I was never voting DGB because I thought she was scum, it should be obvious that vote was because she was preferable to a CES lynch.

[chamber]

Functionally unreadable for me, yes. She could be scum. There are 4 living scum in the game though, I'll worry about my inability to read her if the time comes that there is only 1 left.

[chamber]

Functionally unreadable for me, yes. She could be scum. There are 4 living scum in the game though, I'll worry about my inability to read her if the time comes that there is only 1 left.

This is still just the most fucking convenient position to take on a scumpartner of all time and I can't get over it

ok? Did your question have any relevance or did you just feel like trying to smear me some more?

[chamber]

Voting patterns isn't something I typically look at when scum hunting. Or at least not in the objective sense you mean it.

Lots of town on that scum wagon, yeah. (and bussing STD).

[chamber]

That was to the boo wagon.

[chamber]

The unflipped player on the Bookitty wagon alone each have a 68% probability of flipping scum.

On MafiaSSK/mathcam, we're talking about a 60% probability.

You are assuming 2 scum on that wagon. I think it's entirely plausible that there is only 1. (though I could be biased by being in that set).

[chamber]

How much work would it be to modify your spreadsheet to include the voted player as part of the wagon. (It would account for some of the bias in scum being more willing to vote for townies and less willing to vote for partners).

Just a passing thought I had.

[chamber]

Another interesting switch...

Unvote vote dgb

This switch really isn't interesting. Your wagon seemed like the most viable counterwagon to CES's. I was going to be away for a while (as can be seen by me coming back in twilight). I would rather you had been lynched than CES.

[chamber]

I had a mild town read on CES. I had no read on you. I expect to be able to read CES very confidently given enough time. I have no expectation of ever being able to read you.

[chamber]

It would have meant that I maybe had misremembered your case or something, perhaps had confused it with something someone else said. Is that scummy?

Ok, is that your defense? Are you claiming you "misremembered" what i said? If my attacks on you are "unrelenting", and if you actually suspect me of being scum, then how can you at the same time be claiming you've forgotten what they are?

You voted for me, and now you're saying you don't remember what my case against you was in the first place? Do you often vote without looking at the posts of the player you're voting for, VitR?

What? No? My comment about CES was NOT directed at you.

I really don't get you, Yos. This is incredibly paranoid and it's not making any sense.

Yos is probably scum, stop worrying about him for now and talk with me about STD.

[chamber]

I feel like you are falling into a lot of the same traps that I've fallen into the past when trying to read DGB, PJ.

[chamber]

I will get back to you on that, I know I prompted you about it, and I do want to discuss about it with you. I've just been a little distracted since asking.

[chamber]

Primarily the things that are convincing me to vote for STD are 2118, that CES had a scum read there, the 2 POE sets he's in both pointing to him and matchcam (at least from my pov), and yesterdays hammer.

[chamber]

chamber, how is the fact that you can't read DGB in any way relevant to whether or not PJ can read DGB or whether or not he should be voting DGB based on his own case?

chamber, do you respect PJ as a scumhunter? Do you believe he's really a mason? If you answered yes to one or both of these questions, and you really will never be able to get an accurate read on DGB yourself, maybe its time to trust his instead of actively trying to dissuade (known town) people from their DGB votes.

I don't actually respect PJ as a scumhunter. That should be pretty obvious from my interactions with him. I don't actively disrespect him either, I just lack person experiences.

With that said, although we present ourselves on the opposite ends of the spectrum, I think behind the scenes we are relatively similar. DGB is not. And he's falling into pitfalls I've already fallen into when trying to read DGB. I didn't reach the conclusion that I couldn't read her arbitrarily.

[chamber]

When I look back at CES's play and all I see are:

1) Him picking fights with townies
2) Him sheeping chamber
3) Only a few things all game that seem remotely useful.

I told him I fell for the trap of being unaware of the scumputer and he explained what town and what scum would do in that situation. I pointed out that I was doing exactly what he claimed town would do and he decided to say "let's vote STD" in his next post.

Calling me scummy for hammering CES is blatantly foolish, you're warping your own read, ignoring CES's play, and ignoring the 8 other people required to lynch someone. With everything that was said about him, I thought he was suspicious and certainly more likely to be scum that OGML. So...sorry I was wrong but I'd do it again if I didn't know his alignment.

----

Anyone who thinks that DGB is unaware of her meta is fooling themselves.

Apparently all I have to do if I draw scum is to act as blatantly anti-town as possible and throw a bunch of craplogic at the town.

You guys are aware that her "cop" antics actually did out someone as not the cop, right?

I don't know. If it's really hard for you guys to fake your town metas as scum then maybe you're hurting your own game. But all she has to do is post her neutral scumputer, claim she's a townie a billion times, and spam. That's pretty easy to fake and if you need a demonstration I'm willing to show you how easy it is to fake by creating a neutral scumputer, claim I'm town a billion times, and spam the thread. Will that convince you?

----

Post 2118 has flaws. MBL literally ignores some of the things I say in my posts to make his points look better. Like slanderous literally.

----

Yep, Bookitty wagon. She was so obviously townie D1 that a bunch of townies voted for her, and it's just so impossible that it was comprised of mostly/all townies. What the heck does mathcam wagon mean? I thought mathcam was scum and I presented reasons for that. You thought mathcam was scum for a while. You're using her terrible logic. Are you still trying or have you given up?

----

I'm a vegetarian, so I'll stake every tofu wrap in...tofuland...that DGB is scum and that you are her scumbuddy, Spyrex, blatantly coming to her rescue.

I'm not looking to discuss your scummieness with you. And I don't want to explain myself further before vitR has a chance to think about things for himself. I will concede that mbl's post was stretched in a bunch of areas.

Why are you arguing about how easy it is for DGB to fake her town meta?

[chamber]

Bookitty only seems to post whenever it benefits Bookitty to show up. Have you ever given any thought to the possibility she might be scum and that there's no scum on her wagon because it's a successful D1 wagon on scum?

So you're saying that the scum team all piled onto LML to protect Bookitty?

I mean, in a head to head scum vs scum lynch, I'd make sure I was on the wagon that actually went through?

[chamber]

I've thought she's been scum for days now. It's been painstaking to lynch DGB and I'm trying to figure out why. My theory is that she's using all the tools in her box to try to appeal to those who are aware of her meta or who are willing to dismiss her objectively anti-town behavior as "nah, that's just DGB, doin' her thang."

Do you know who else had 'He's hard to lynch' as a rallying cry against him? CES. Sometimes the players with more experience actually know more and aren't just being manipulated.

[chamber]

more experience [with the given players]

[chamber]

His defense of the hammer was all about the fact that he hammered, rather than the circumstances behind it, yeah. That bothered me too.

Do you think it's plausible that there are 0 scum in both LML's scum suspects and on the bookitty wagon?

[chamber]

I find it doubtful that my or ABR's remarks were the straw that broke the camels back. I assume instead that something came up outside of the game.

[chamber]

It's a 120 page game, she should do whatever she needs to to get engaged.

[chamber]

In what world was that her admitting that she knows you're town?

[chamber]

I mean if anything you being so sure of ABR being town smells more like that?

[chamber]

But she was just panhandling for STD votes wherever she can get them. I'm sure I've seen her do that before when town.

[chamber]

I'll stop putting up defense's for bad arguments at the same time that people stop making them. I also wouldn't be surprised if a lot of my posts resolved around DGB, guess what, she's been a failed lynch wagon 2 days in a row, a lot of everyone's post's have.

[chamber]

But she was just panhandling for STD votes wherever she can get them. I'm sure I've seen her do that before when town.

And that % I was just talking about ticks ever higher.

That's ridiculous. This is a single event. It's length depends on the way we interact. As a pure measure of posts its meaningless.

[chamber]

Yosarian has a lot of gall to be criticizing DGB or me after the disastrous chaos he manufactured yesterday. Really.

Really?! We're blaming yos for that one?

He was the primary proponent of the CES wagon, that's what ABR is pinning on him, and rightfully so.

[chamber]

Holy shit that's a bad post.

[chamber]

He puts the burden on you to prove that you are town. That's not something someone can prove.

He try's to use your method against you, but both uses a single wagon instead of an aggregate of sources (as you do) and removes his town reads, which defeats the purpose anyway. There are 3 masons and 4 living scum, removing his town reads from the over all pool would have a similar effect. He also ignores the other STD sources which are by far more damning.

[chamber]

With 3 masons though...it could be one more maybe?

Not really? 5 scum in 22 players needs a fair bit of town power to balance it, a sizable amount of that power is likely just the masons. (3 masons 3 mafia 7 scum tends to be relatively balanced, for instance)

[chamber]

and 3 masons + that + shanba seems like it's probably still missing some power.

[chamber]

It doesn't matter if DGB's methods work or not. What I want to know is if DGB believes what she is saying.

That's the point, that's not what she's saying. You are being horribly manipulative.

[chamber]

Anyway, DGB, I'm asking you one more time. Are you confident enough in STD's alignment to bet your life on it, or not? If you're not confident about his alignment, that's fine, just say so now.

No one who's sane should regularly have read's nearly strong enough to be confident enough to risk their lives on it. I don't have reads that strong every game, and I probably still have them more often than I should. Why is that the standard you are measuring her confidence by?

[chamber]

No. I backed down when you bullied me over CES. I'm not doing that again.

[chamber]

I didn't have a strong town read on him. I knew your reasons for suspecting him were largely garbage because I know him well. You were equating me taking apart your arguments with me being his partner if he flipped scum, and because I was unsure of how he'd flip, it absolutely bullied me into backing off. Whether that was your intent or not is something you only know, but it seems that way to me in retrospect.

[chamber]

None of that has anything to do with this, though. I really do think that DGB and STD probably have different alignments; not because of DGB's argument, but for other reasons, mostly process of elimination. That's why I need to get a read on DGB. I could just take a guess, but I do not want to be wrong again.

I'm perfectly happy to talk about this instead. You are the one that ran from my inquiries. How do you expect someone to prove that they are town? (generally an impossible task) Why are you holding her STD read to the standard of risking her game life on it?

[chamber]

The entire point is that your questions aren't fair. So no.

[chamber]

And that's how you mislynched CES.

[chamber]

No, I don't want you to use unfair lines.

[chamber]

Arguing with you any further doesn't seem to have a point you've admitted to the whole town that you are being unfair, there should be no pressure on her to actually answer those questions now.

[chamber]

chamber using these last few pages to play against his own standard of play to either buddy DGB or position himself as an anti-Yos is noted.

I was cognizant of what I was doing. General rules are general rules for a reason, and I've explained why I interfered in this case.

[chamber]

looks like you're trying to position yourself as pro-DGB/anti-Yos

I'm not all that pro-DGB. I'm absolutely anti-yos, but I don't think I've been hiding that prior to this?

[chamber]

DGB, chamber, are you seeing this behavior from Green Crayons? He just moved up a couple notches on the scummy scale.

Yeah, I mean, he was targeting me with most of the stuff that bothered me, but he did stuff that bothered me.

[chamber]

looks like you're trying to position yourself as pro-DGB/anti-Yos

I'm not all that pro-DGB. I'm absolutely anti-yos, but I don't think I've been hiding that prior to this?

Defending a player against arguments = acting in a manner that is pro-player.

And? I've already explained this at least once this game, but maybe I have to again. There is a difference between refuting bad points and thinking someone is town. What motivates me isn't defending DGB, it's defending rational, level headed discussion. That I'm indirectly defending DGB is incidental. I'm not actively pro-dgb.

[chamber]

chamber, saying that you don't want to unvote someone "because it may make the bandwagon you're on less viable than DGB's", means you're defending DGB from lynch and pro-DGB.

Relative to my scum reads, yes?

[chamber]

It's very easy to be put on the defensive when the questions are aimed at you. It's easier to see them for what they are from the outside.

Do you disagree with my opinion of Yos's questions?


Preview Edit: If I thought Yos's questions would yield useful info I would have let them pass. I don't have the expectation that that line could do anything other than alienate DGB or trick her into making a mistake (as town).



I think there is no chance that there is 6 scum in this game, from knowing patricks mod meta loosely.

[chamber]

I'm willing to just lynch OGML's slot. He wasn't in my top lynch tier but he was close enough.

[chamber]

I'm just talking replacement considerations with OGML's slot's lynch. Do it before Patrick needs to find someone.

[chamber]

I'm sorry. Maybe I'm just dense, but DGB has removed mathcam, ABR, and herself from her scumputer to make the results look more damning for me.

That's not how I interpreted what she was doing, but if you think she was you can and should make that case. I don't think anyone takes her scumputer all that seriously, so I don't know who you expect she was appealing to. On the other hand Yos was setting up a clear false dilemma between you and DGB in a way that would be difficult for DGB to dismiss as such.

[chamber]

what.

[chamber]

Why does DGB think thok is replacing OGML?

[chamber]

It could be irrelevant, or DGB could be scum with OGML and Patrick said it in their QT but forgot to post it here.

[chamber]

Poro, GC, and Bookitty are pretty clearly all town.

These are all some degree of a scum read of mine...

[chamber]

It's true that I haven't played with poro much.

Sometimes competing scum wagons happen. I'm not going to rule her out because of only that.

I will admit that I had a town read on GC during day1, its been slipping since yesterday, he's the weakest scum read of the 3.


preview edit: I don't have an agenda when I'm posting. Lots of my posts aren't trying to accomplish anything. But as I've said, I didn't have a strong town read on CES, and I certainly have no town read on DGB. My interest wasn't in defending them, that was a biproduct of dismantling the bad arguments being raised against them. Why didn't I defend her against people actually voting for her? Because their reasons were less bad.

[chamber]

Anyway, everyone has an agenda while posting, even if they're not always consciously aware what it is.

Not in the way you initially used the word. [secret] agenda.

Obviously all my posts have some surface level thing that they are accomplishing. (Typically communication of some kind).

[chamber]

Do you have time to include todays wagons in your analysis DGB?

[chamber]

Or alternatively provide the spreadsheets for download?

[chamber]

I have no idea. I technically know how to recreate everything you've done I'm just unlikely to do it if I need to do all the manual data entry over again. I can rewrite formula's easy enough.

[chamber]

I saw him self vote and assumed it was a hammer. I haven't counted the votes to double check.

[chamber]

Trying to understand this, DGB. Was this the wagon at the end of day 2?

At this point, the other big wagons was on town, right? This was when the wagons were Mathcam/ Glork/ and a little one on CES, and both Glork and CES were town. If mathcam was also town, why would the scum necessarily be on that wagon, instead of one of the other town wagons? If all 3 wagons were on town, then why would the scum care?

pLEASE CHECK that while I'm rushing to do other things, thanks

Sure.

Actually, I'm looking at all of Patrick's posts and I can't find a wagon where this happened:

MafiaSSK/mathcam (9) -- CrashTextDummie, Cogito Ergo Sum, Albert B. Rampage, Seol/Bookitty, Untrod Tripod, DrippingGoofball, Save the Dragons, Sotty7, Glork

Must have been before day 2, since Glork was still alive. On day 1, just looking at Patrick's posts, mafiaSSk had a 5 vote wagon on him at one point (went away after the replacement). On day 2, the biggest mathcam wagon I can find (still just looking at Patrick's posts) was here:

Votecount

Glork (6) -- undo, Kublai Khan, VitaminR, Porochaz, mathcam, Green Crayons
CrashTextDummie (1) -- SpyreX
undo (1) -- chamber
mathcam (7) -- CrashTextDummie, Cogito Ergo Sum, Bookitty, Untrod Tripod, DrippingGoofball, Sotty7, Glork
Cogito Ergo Sum (1) -- Yosarian2
VitaminR (1) -- Albert B. Rampage
DrippingGoofball (2) -- Save the Dragons, petroleumjelly

Not voting: MrBuddyLee
20 alive, 11 to lynch

The only other wagons were on Glork, and a few votes on you. So the competing wagon was also on town.

Let me take a closer look and see if I can find the exact point when he got to 9 votes; if that happened ,it must have been between vote counts and the next one.

Nah, that exact wagon doesn't exist as far as I can tell. She just added STD and ABR to the 7 one because they were both on versions with 6 votes.

[chamber]

Thinking that I'm scum?

[chamber]

I can show you the really awkward moment when LML tried to buddy me. It was the one thing he did that actually bothered me.

[chamber]

I'm currently a fan of chamber's play, and have him pro-town.

[chamber]

I'm not sure about MBL. He's always some kind of non-participant, he's hard to tie down. Plus at the end of today I felt he was pretending to start to suspect me. I found his posts made up of names and numbers without interpretation REALLY SKETCH

His post that tied STD to LML really got the STD wagon going initially. Your POE helped drive it home, but its hard to see a scumbuddy doing that. I've been trapped too many times to write someone off completely on any single event but this makes me want to write him off.

[chamber]

chamber, are we set on lynching [mathcam, OGML, Porochaz] in the next couple days?

I still have misgivings about Boo and Yos, but those are my 5 atm.

[chamber]

Yosarian is too happy that we've hit scum, to be scum himself, actually.

I agree that yos handled this well which is why he's in 'misgivings' and not in 'power lynch immediately'.

[chamber]

We're forgetting about SpyreX damn it

I know you are trying to catch all the scum because you see the writing on the wall. But you've handed enough of them too us. We'll find the last one(s) eventually.

[chamber]

N1 Glork
N2 undo
N3 Sotty

Sotty you owe me your life

Looks like Shanba was a vig kill and that Glork was the real target.

This seems unlikely.

[chamber]

Which is why you have to give me and ABR time to fake the counterclaim, obv.

[chamber]

haha woooooooo 50-50 shot at nailing scum.. thank god. I was starting to worry that they both might be town. My first instinct is to lynch DGB, but I need to go reread for doc-context.

This is a scum post, right?

I can't tell. I don't know if I'd have the nerve to post after seeing the counter claim without reading the like 3 new pages or w/e.

[chamber]

I'm not sure about MBL. He's always some kind of non-participant, he's hard to tie down. Plus at the end of today I felt he was pretending to start to suspect me. I found his posts made up of names and numbers without interpretation REALLY SKETCH

His post that tied STD to LML really got the STD wagon going initially. Your POE helped drive it home, but its hard to see a scumbuddy doing that. I've been trapped too many times to write someone off completely on any single event but this makes me want to write him off.

Actually, I'm curious what post you're talking about. MBL was big on the "LML busses" back in D2, but I don't recall him bringing it back up since then.

I didn't mean today, I still meant 2118. It was also weirdly hyperbolic for known partners.

[chamber]

MBL is scum who hasn't caught up, got to the STD claim, saw my CC, and didn't notice there was 50 more pages and a STD self-hammer.

You see a CC and you got, hey 50-50 chance of scum, I'm leaning on voting the townie?

If he made that post at the point where he was reading I would have taken way more issue with it, I think that still being his first instinct when there are 50 more pages makes it more odd though?

[chamber]

Sorry, DGB, I made my first post after I read your list of protects and it looked like you were having some sort of spastic meltdown. Sotty protect and nightkill attempt vs. PJ protect and nightkill attempt.

This is a really weird thing to be confused over. I don't know the meaning of it yet, but there is some meaning burried in here.

[chamber]

d1 mafiassk really doesn't look like STD's partner.

[chamber]

and you were arguing with me about my "either DGB or STD must be scum" comment.

It was a shitty comment. The only reason I wasn't taking up that fight is because VitR was.

[chamber]

and you were arguing with me about my "either DGB or STD must be scum" comment.

It was a shitty comment. The only reason I wasn't taking up that fight is because VitR was.

(shrug) I don't care if you agree with the comment or not at this point. That's not the question. The question is, how do you think STD's scum buddy would react to hearing that comment. I think they would try to avoid lynching either STD or DGB, or would try to make the comment seem less credible, or both.

If I thought it was a shit comment I think it's believable that VitR thought it was a shit comment. I don't think that's true for everyone, but me and VitR think somewhat alike and were both in the hating your play mindset.

Which means the real question is whether you want to condemn him just for not having a scum read on STD.

[chamber]

I actually think I'm capable of reading CDB given some time. I'd prefer to wait on that lynch now.

[chamber]

if Yosarian is scum then Vit is scum but otherwise Vit is probably town.

Can you elaborate on this, I think I'm not alone in having drawn the opposite conclusion (they likely aren't scum together).

[chamber]

Juls, there's no way that Yosarian is scum.

Pick someone inside this group please:

[Porochaz, CDB, mathcam]

I don't remember where you have bookitty.

[chamber]

Vote: porochaz

[chamber]

And I thought I was being insufficiently subtle.

[chamber]

What do those numbers make you think?

[chamber]

I'm not even sure I'd put him at townish.

Not even townish? This smells wrong to me.

[chamber]

Also, there's a wide gap between not even "townish" (your position) and "obvtown" (false alternative you made up).

When X expresses shock that Y doesn't find Z townish, it's not unreasonable to suspect that X finds Z more than just townish, so I don't think it was quite the false dichotomy you make it out to be. Also, I've never used the word obvtown in my life before this thread (I think), and have seen it used with a quite wide range of sureties as to whether or not the target was actually town. I may have used it wrong.

The use (or misuse) of obvtown by you is irrelevant. Your argument supports me not being obvtown, not me being 'not even townish'.

[chamber]

If the clique's vibes have nothing to do with alignment, then I misunderstood what you were saying here. And, in light of 3585, I don't really understand what you're saying here. What are these "vibes"?

I'm not sure I have a way of expressing this without antagonizing the group involved, but there's repeatedly been comments of the form "When it comes to us, we know best." I am skeptical of their claims to be able to read one another, their definitive and retroactively-vindicated proclamations on CES notwithstanding, and tire of the implicit (and some times explicit) refrain that people who don't know them have less valid opinions. There's even an extent to which I think PJ and OGML suffered from disagreeing too much with the clique. So my original quote was that there seemed to be a lot of pro-chamber sentiment coming from expressions of that sort, and I don't put a lot of weight into such expressions, at least when not backed up by something more definitive.

ABR is the loudest and most self confident member of the 'clique'. If you ignore his involvement, I think you'll find that our arguments (at the very least my arguments) were not in the form 'I know him well he's town' but 'I know him well, that's a bad argument against him/her because they do that as town' And the 2nd is perfectly valid (and was ultimately right in both the case of CES and DGB).

CES calling me obvTown is something that doesn't fall inside that, but he's right and knows me particularly well, as I know him. Anyone that knows our dynamic SHOULD just trust his word, but I haven't brought it up before because I think doubt is healthy.

TLDR: I think you are making this clique thing out to be bigger than it is/was?

[chamber]

You should know that sotty pj/juls and undo are all claimed mason, CDB.

[chamber]

His actual town read section is a lot bigger than the top row, it also functionally includes the one below it.

[chamber]

chamber and VitR, who are your #2 suspects?

Why?

[chamber]

And we were just on a path I was happy with.

[chamber]

1: this day is fairly new still
2: You think VitR is going to end it faster than poro?

[chamber]

eliminating wiggle room

A rather biased way of putting things.

[chamber]

A rather biased way of putting things.

At this point, it's getting harder and harder for scum to vote for their scumpartners because if they do, they're going to eventually get PoEd. Two days from now I'd like to see who was willing to lynch scum today and who picked two townies as their top two lynch targets.

The only way we are getting flips on unknowns is by lynching them. It's late enough in the game that the scum can't afford to shoot non-masons. You'll know I supported the lynch of 2 townies if I'm on both of their wagons.

[chamber]

It's not hypocritical to adjust behaviors based on evidence. A few days ago I was considering proxying my vote to the masons, but the STD flip shows they're perfectly capable of overlooking scum.

You thought them perfect prior to that?

[chamber]

{chamber(+3), Spyrex(+5), Albert(+2), cam(+1), GC(+1), Boo(+1), Yos(+1)}

Different perspectives can be interesting. Although SpyreX took a hardline on STD, I would have said that me and Albert both contributed more towards him actually getting lynched.

[chamber]

I just got massive flashbacks to earlier in the game when I was questioning you about reading CES in ISO.

[chamber]

If you have anything to be more explicit about, now is the time Albert.

[chamber]

Unvote vote yos

[chamber]

How is that related to his opinion of yos?

[chamber]

I agree with you on Porochaz and probably on OGML but you aren't pursuing them.

[chamber]

People are allowed to be wrong?

[chamber]

STD was probably the best positioned scum in the town hierarchy

This is a silly statement. He got lynched, clearly that's just false. Unless you are suggesting he got lynched by his team mates, but that's not in line with you accusing VitR for not lynching him.

[chamber]

The balance was tipped well before then from my pov.

[chamber]

Chamber, you're confirmed town,

Do you know something I don't?

[chamber]

I played along yesterday but someone putting me as confirmed town because of it is over the line. I'm not the vig. I responded to the comment in question intentionally so that the real vig wouldn't fall on the bomb the way it was perceived that I had.

[chamber]

Yos's about-face on Porochaz is the scummiest thing I've seen so far from him this game. Maybe from anyone.

And yet you have no problem voting for poro still? It's given me pause.

[chamber]

sigh.

Vote Porochaz

[chamber]

DGB claimed to have protected a mason the night there was no kill. So basically confirmed.

[chamber]

Yos, you continuing to attack VitR isn't remotely productive. Poro is getting lynched once juls is caught up. There is no other way today is playing out. If you want to keep arguing with VitR actually bring something new to the table.

[chamber]

Yos, you continuing to attack VitR isn't remotely productive.

Chamber, you sticking up for your friends who you don't even have a read on, just because you think I'm picking on them, isn't remotely productive. You've been doing it all game, and it's really not helping anything. If you think VitR is town, please say so; I am interested in what you think about him.

I would say the same to him if he was still attacking you. He's realized that you 2 arguing isn't going anywhere though.

[chamber]

besides the fact that I played a major role pushing both scum lynches we've had so far,

Bullshit. You had 0 role in the std lynch.

[chamber]

How long before you are caught up? I thought today was the day you gave?

[chamber]

You are guilty of self delusion on a scale that's incomprehensible to me if you are town and truly believe that you were a factor in getting him lynched beyond placing a single vote at a time when you were in a position where you really couldn't do anything else.

[chamber]

Poro still needs to be lynched first though, look at his most recent post.

And it's time to actually make that lynch happen. We've waited enough for juls reads. Thank you for them, juls. I don't want to seem like a dick, the game is just losing its momentum while we wait.

[chamber]

Votecount

ChannelDelibird (1) -- SpyreX
Yosarian2 (1) -- Juls
Porochaz (6) -- Green Crayons, mathcam, Sotty7, chamber, Albert B. Rampage, VitaminR
mathcam (1) -- Yosarian2
VitaminR (1) -- undo

Not voting: Bookitty, ChannelDelibird, MrBuddyLee, Porochaz
14 alive, 8 to lynch.

Yep, mathcam is definitely the most universally agreed upon scum suspect.

[chamber]

I think he's the best lynch by a not close margin.

[chamber]

Interesting line yos is taking. Im not even sure why he is pursuing it. ABR, why do you think he is town?

mathcams recent post is most interesting, if you want my help in joining a wagon, ABR, then I would start there.

This is like a prototypical scum post. I don't see why no one else seems to take issue with it.

[chamber]

I'm too tired to form competent new thoughts atm, I haven't liked mathcam not seeing me as town and seemingly trying to add more possible mislynches to the pool, but I'm incredibly biased in that regard so have mostly ignored it.

[chamber]

I'm not the person to get into an argument over that. Argue with juls or something. I'm the least biased and judging how I'm perceived. I don't think I'm nearly good enough to have played this game as scum, but you shouldn't give a shit what I say about that.

[chamber]

You are guilty of self delusion on a scale that's incomprehensible to me if you are town and truly believe that you were a factor in getting him lynched beyond placing a single vote at a time when you were in a position where you really couldn't do anything else.

Chamber, is there a reason that you've spent so much time this game insulting me and trying to block me from doing anything useful at all? It's really starting to get on my nerves at this point.

I wont speak for other moments, because I haven't been going out of my way to be so; I'm just an abrasive person. But in this moment I wasn't intending to insult you at all. I was stating a scum read first and foremost, and I was, if you are town, trying to make you take a moment to self reflect on that incident and think about whether you really had the impact you seem to perceive.

[chamber]

Chambers case on me, was lurking and the fact I wanted to play skype mafia on a deadline day rather than watch the thread, both are points that I wouldn't deny, (beyond the fact that I was in the thread before deadline hit, but the lynch had happened) I find his interactions in this game verge on frequent but minimal, but that could be style. I found his opinion on DGB quite interesting a lot of the time, unable to read her effectively, but at times willing to follow her blindly and at other times voting her.

You can add that you are using the word 'interesting' too often and don't appear to be reading the game very deeply. Do you know when I voted for DGB? When she was the only viable counter wagon to CES. Do you know when I blindly followed her? Never.

Actually lets hammer in that 'interesting' point just so that it doesn't get lost. You aren't drawing conclusions, you are just talking about events without -really- saying anything. It's what I meant when I called our earlier post a prototypical scum post.

[chamber]

CES and DGB were pretty similar(and I was right about your reasons on CES being wrong). This VitR one is very different. I made like 1 comment about how you guys have said everything and not managed to convince enough of the rest of us to make it happen today. It was targeted at you instead of at him because you were the one that was still trying.

[chamber]

Patrick has had stuff like that not match up before. I was once in a game of his where there were both day and night neighbours, for instance.

[chamber]

Fine.

Vote yos

[chamber]

unvote

???

[chamber]

I guess MBL is a lot more convincing than I am.

Unvote, Vote: Yos

I don't know about the rest of them but I didn't actually find MBL's points to be at all convincing. I just want the day to end, don't particularly mind a yos lynch, and it had the momentum.

[chamber]

I wouldn't be voting for you if I thought the wagon was terrible. I'm compromising, that doesn't mean I'm willing to lynch literally anyone.

[chamber]

But I would still expect him to use PTs for everyone if he used them for the Masons, which means even if they had day talk they wouldn't have had access to the PT (because the site was down).

[chamber]

Making cases for why someone is town seems counter productive most of the time.

[chamber]

Hey chamber, got a read on the Delibird yet?

He's barely posted. I'd lean scum though just for that.

[chamber]

Vote CDB

[chamber]

chamber, talk to me about your CDB vote. I'd particularly appreciate your opinion on Post 4059.

I can't really fault anything you said in that post, I just do my best not to look at reasons for why people may be town. Scum are trying to fake those things, and different players can do so quite effectively. Do you have a good reason to believe OGML would be bad at faking rage? That withstanding I don't think any of your points are strong enough to counteract the scummy things from the slot.

[chamber]

Has it really been 6 days ._. wow I'm bad. let me find something useful to say in a minute.

[chamber]

I think we just need to lynch cdb.

[chamber]

Do you guys think there's any chance all the scum are vanilla?

Probably not but it depends. I wouldn't expect them to be rolling in power.

[chamber]

Lol at

Has it really been 6 days ._. wow I'm bad. let me find something useful to say in a minute.
...
(2 hours pass)
...
I think we just need to lynch cdb.

Alright, I'm out of patience.

Vote: CDB.

I did spend some of that time looking for something useful to say, that I had nothing and kept putting it off lead to the later comment after 2h.

[chamber]

I think we should be mass claiming today. Tomorrow is presumably Lylo and I'd rather have some time to deal with a vig counter claim or etc.

[chamber]

Also VT.

[chamber]

Unless I'm missing something its MBL by process of elimination?

[chamber]

The major flaw in thinking that MBL is the vig is that you'd expect a town vig to be pretty excited to see how things flipped.

[chamber]

Knowledge of balance has changed considerably since you played regularly, I don't think 5/17 is unreasonable given our town powers. Much less unreasonable than 6/16 or 5/17 and them having a vig. It's entirely possible they have something like a rolecop.

[chamber]

Just to be clear to the vig, even if s/he has extra shots, they should absolutely not be using them at this point. As such they have no reason not to claim.

[chamber]

To confirm the vig isn't lying?

[chamber]

Your consent is irrelevant. Today is the right day for the vig to claim.

[chamber]

I think it's probably best that I don't claim, then. Most of you seem to be fairly confident that I'm town, and thus claiming would have at best marginal benefit. If you disagree, I'm glad to discuss.

Fuck off. This logic only works if you -are- the vig.

Now claim why you shot who you shot and the specifics of your role.

[chamber]

lol, fine, whatever, I'll claim vanilla like the rest of you.

ps. what the actual fuck with the hostility

The source of the hostility is you going MIA for 10 days and then fucking us around when you get back.

[chamber]

I've been finding the end of day 4, in which we had the STD/DGB claim/counterclaim twilight speak for several pages, very interesting. In particular, I'd like to think about chamber here for a minute.

Here's one line in particular that doesn't make any sense to me, and might indicate a chamber-STD pairing:

Which is why you have to give me and ABR time to fake the counterclaim, obv.

The context is that Yos was explaining how DGB counterclaiming was in fact a good move (there was brief discussion about whether or not she could've kept the counterclaim quiet), with the line "Town probably wouldn't have been willing to lynch a claimed doctor without a counterclaim." chamber's quote above is his response.

I'm trying to understand what you were trying to get at here. It seems to me, and maybe I'm reading this incorrectly, that you're saying you were

so

sure that STD's original doc claim was false, that you would have lied to the town about being a doctor in order to get STD lynched?

Because to me, that doesn't sit very well with how weakly you seemed to be supporting the STD wagon. You voted him (post 2892) at a time when there was no one else on his wagon (relatively little danger of lynching him), and even weakened this further by announcing you'd be willing to vote anyone in {Yos, Boo, STD}. You were hardly a cheerleader for the wagon from then on, either (you mentioned it a few times, but nothing I think I'd use to eliminate an STD-chamber pairing). How did this evolve into the anti-STD bravado that post 3426 above alludes to? And why did ABR get mentioned in the same breath?

I find it ridiculous that you say I wasn't a proponent of the STD wagon, I was probably the person pushing it 2nd hardest. With that said that post was said in jest. I wouldn't have actually counterclaimed STD's doc claim, though I did think it was fake when he made it, DGB had counterclaimed before I was actually around to post (based on weeks old memory anyway). I included ABR's name because he seemed like someone that actually would make a counterclaim move like that, shrug.

[chamber]

Vote MBL

[chamber]

I'd be lying if I said annoyance with you played no part in my vote. On the other hand I legitimately think the way you played the refusal to claim and your recent focus on reasons not to vote people looks really bad.

[chamber]

If I thought you were scum before today I would have said something about it sooner. You telling me to leave out today is telling me to leave out the bulk of why I'm voting for you. Scum want to look town, you generally looking town means nothing to me. All I care about is that you looked like scum in this instance. (though you pushing your yos case much harder than your STD one when the STD one was much better -is- something I took note of yesterday)

[chamber]

And I'd lynch you or porochaz over bookitty or vitR, but MBL is where I want my vote.

[chamber]

My complaint would be that you are even looking for townies at all, but I agree with that being one flaw.

[chamber]

@chamber, if you don't think I've been looking for townies, you're not reading the game. Read my defenses of Glork and OGML/CDB in particular.

I didn't say you weren't looking for them. I said I think looking for them is complaint worthy.

[chamber]

Sorry to hear any of that spyreX. I hope you come out on the other side of things Ok in the end.

[chamber]

Agreed.

chamber?

Between those 2 I'm lynching you and it's not even close.

[chamber]

Sending PMs to people about on going games (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it was a mistake?) and talking about other on going games are no-nos. As it happens I'm busy atm because my nephew is sick, I'll be more free before deadline though and will wait till then to vote.

[chamber]

Patrick said it was in 1.5h when I asked him a little while ago, not .5h

I'm not really happy with either of these lynches atm, I'd much rather mbl, but as I said previously with all else equal I'd lynch mathcam over vitr

[chamber]

Patrick said it was in 1.5h when I asked him a little while ago, not .5h

I'm not really happy with either of these lynches atm, I'd much rather mbl, but as I said previously with all else equal I'd lynch mathcam over vitr

I really hope you're scum, because if not, your play today has been disastrous.

My play has been uninspired for sure. I'd have likely replaced out a while ago if not for it being an oldy specific game that is approaching 200 pages. If you are town your play has actually been disastrous though.

[chamber]

There isn't any harm in waiting for the CC then.

[chamber]

Since when are you into wagon poe ABR?

[chamber]

I also like how STD is green on the seol/boo wagon.

[chamber]

3 of bookitty mbl porochaz ika.

[chamber]

You don't need to figure out the whole scum team right now though. You just need 1 name that's most likely. Any focus on the whole team is a distraction.

[chamber]

And why are you voting for me out of those 3?

[chamber]

Nonsense.

[chamber]

You haven't and your reason for voting for me over the other 2 is ridiculous.

[chamber]

You haven't. You are either wrong or scum. And you voting for me because the rest of the town has it right will lose us the game.

[chamber]

You are also asking him to vig, hilarious.

[chamber]

Surviving till near endgame and then getting poed is what happens to me nearly everytime I'm scum. I wouldn't take any pride in it happening again. This isn't me as scum though.

[chamber]

Your enthusiasm isn't fooling anyone. I don't know why you are faking it, hoping to get a rise out of me perhaps?

[chamber]

But you don't. If i cared about this game still I'd probably be more worked up. But I was ready to come into today and vote MBL full well knowing it could easily end the game in the towns loss.

[chamber]

I strongly dislike that this is the 2nd time you've chosen to vote for what appears to be your least sure of 3 suspects.

[chamber]

Oh look, you should have been voting for obv scum poro and bookitty.