Night and Day Mafia (Game Over)

[Bulbazak]

Though, DrCirno was in light during the day...

You are also missing this Bulba.
If it's a day action then Crino was in light during Day 1.
You are jumping the gun here.

Maybe. There a quite a few things, though, that don't add up.

[Bulbazak]

@tex: He never said anything about busdrivers.

[Bulbazak]

Okay. Yeah, that bus driver thing from TWIE completely contradicts what he said later.

[Bulbazak]

RC could have subbed out for completely unrelated reasons. You've done the same, Titus, and still ended up being scum.

[Bulbazak]

That being said, TWIE is in the ThinkBig slot, and I remember thinking the shenanigans surrounding the early Snarky push made him likely town.

[Bulbazak]

@Titus: Take another look at Math. I think they've been preparing for a BTD townflip. That's why they have been trying to discredit the idea of looking for the scum PR in the light. They know the noose will grow tighter after that flip.

[Bulbazak]

@Titus: Tomorrow when I'm at work. I'm getting ready to go to bed within the hour. I'll add it to the list of backlog things I've been meaning to do.

[Bulbazak]

@TWIE: If you're now claiming it was a day action, then it really does. Bus driver would not have affected your role at all. And even if you thought it might have if it was night, you'd have reason to believe that a bus driver targeted you or someone you targeted. A lot of that logic does not add up. It looks like you came in to argue against a bus driver, realized you f-d up, and then tried to change the narrative to your ability being used during the day, ignoring the whole bus driver thing you soft reacted to in the first place.

@Titus: Thoughts on Nosferatu?

[Bulbazak]

Unvote

I think I see what's happening here. Double checking.

[Bulbazak]

@TWIE: Why do you think a hypothetical bus driver would have targeted Titus?

[Bulbazak]

Creature, I think this is real. This might explain a lot of RC.

[Bulbazak]

@TWIE: Why'd you unvote Titus?

[Bulbazak]

I've just been reviewing your slot. I got that verification from Cirno.

P-edit: Yeah. RC was voting Titus.

[Bulbazak]

Vote Mathblade

Back to voting scum.

P-edit: Don't worry about it. I just found something that confirmed your story.

[Bulbazak]

How's the sorting going?

[Bulbazak]

Where do you fall on Titus?

[Bulbazak]

I have minor reservations on Math, but it's solely because the bus driver has zero foundation in logic. If a bus driver is real (unless they are the bus driver), then I'd scumread them.

Math argumentation at times has zero foundation as town too, in my experience. Why this here?

Math's zero foundations are not correct as town. As scum, they take their knowledge and sell it as moonlogic.

Going back to this, because this is real stupid. So you're essentially saying that Math is incorrect as town and correct as scum? The crap, Titus?! That has nothing to do with why I'm scumreading them, or even why I think CE is scumreading them. We expect moon logicers are going to moon logic. That's not in dispute. The difference is in why we think they're moon logicing. I don't for one moment believe Math really thinks there's a bus driver. My argument has nothing to do with roles or whether there is or is not a bus driver or strongman. My issue is that Math is throwing the bus driver argument out as a means to discourage hunting for the scum PR in the light. This is the most evident when their bus driver argument was coopted and Math immediately turned around and started discouraging their own argument. It's not the argument or the logic, Titus, it's the motivation behind Math's argument in the first place. And I'm frustrated, because I don't understand how you can't freaking get that.

Vote Mathblade

Back to voting scum.

P-edit: Don't worry about it. I just found something that confirmed your story.

Care to share? Cause I still find the whole story inconsistent and not credible.

Spoiler: Sure

VOTE: MathBlade

Oh also I think Titus is town so here we go.
Hi Titus, it was me Day 1.

3 protectives feels like a really big stretch, one of them must be scum

Actually, 3 is about right for a game like this and given what I've seen. That being said, I'm not sure Creature ever claimed protective. That was something I was going to double check today.

I think we should start by lynching Ginngie, then Creature, then Titus until one of them flips scum
mark my words, this plan cannot possibly go wrong

Absolutely not!

okay can we do a massclaim guys??? i feel like that would clear up approx. 96.6% of the role confusion rn. at least for me

I claim mason, popcorn to Thewayitends

Aronis, I think you're town, but even I'm getting fed up with this crap.

BTD's just awful. awful activity, awful posting, awful cases, awful claiming, awful awful awful

Which is funny, because the same can be, and has been, said about you.

I also love how Math just ignores or plays dumb to everything happening in the thread or being asked of them. I know Math is capable of discerning what is being said. This ignorance is not genuine.

[Bulbazak]

@4408 What have I ignored? I have been playing catchup with the thread repeatedly. If you think I ignored something ask.

Considering no one else agrees with what I have "ignored" wouldn't someone else point it out?

However give me a post number and I will address it

You just played dumb with TWIE. "What's everyone talking about?!" you cry. Yet, if you were really reading and as discerning as you and Titus are trying to make you seem as town, there's no way you could have been confused about the whole TWIE affair. The fact that you're trying to act confused about that means that you don't want to take a stance on that, because you know it's toxic for you to touch it. So instead of coming down on the topic one way or the other, you just feign ignorance and confusion.

I also don't believe you misunderstood that Texcat was asking me about TWIE. I know you are a closer reader than that. You just needed something else to increase that Texcat scumread, so you accused her of buddying.

[Bulbazak]

BTD6 could have blocked me or maybe he didn't.

Are you saying that you were blocked now?

Math, you never answered this.

For the millionth time I don't know.

You don't know whether you were blocked or not?

Math, you seemed to dodge this earlier. Putting it back up so you can't avoid it.

[Bulbazak]

Add MathBlade, Rauther...

No on Rauthdir.

Didn't he claim mason?

He claimed linked. He had no idea what his role was. I'm surprised no one asked in the PT. Wasn't that why you guys chose him?

You asked a question I answered in the prior post.

I don't know.

You said that BTD might have roleblocked you. I thought you might have just misspoke, but I prodded you on it anyway. You doubled down, so it's not a mistake. So you have some reason to think you were blocked. So don't start on this confusion bit, because you're too far down the rabbit hole for that.

Were you blocked? Y/N

Feeling like there's atleast two scum in the light.

I've been feeling that way for awhile as well. Part of me thinks that actually explains Math's actions, but that might also be because they're pushing town and knows the noose will tighten via PoE afterwards. That being said, I'm not sure if Math is the PR we're looking for, so there might be another loose. This really comes down to BTD's alignment.

Bulba as scum lurks and favors catchup walls that do nothing and have no followthrough.

I'm not sure about the latter part. That's a maybe. I don't know how they look from the outside. The first is incorrect. My activity has never had anything to do with my alignment. I've just been able to keep up with this game, because the activity here has never gone into overdrive. There's also the fact that I now have the freedom to play when at work, and it's often what I do to alleviate boredom. I'm also trying to avoid walling, because I know some people zone it out. As long as I can keep up, that shouldn't be a problem.

Bulba saw this pattern as well.

I've seen other patterns, but you seem to be ignoring me on those.

Both are equally listening to garbage pushes rather than compromising on btd who no one TRs.

I kinda townread BTD. The result claim had the ring of truth to it, and it doesn't make sense coming from BTD-scum. That being said, he falls in the same category as Aronis, where I wouldn't feel sad if they met a bullet.

[Bulbazak]

That's not a question that we need to know the answer of.

It absolutely is. It tells us if there are pieces of the picture we're missing to PoE further, and it also tells us if Math is lying or not.

Not interested in knowing whether Math has a role that allows them to know if they are roleblocked or not.

Math has already insinuated that they were blocked. If true, that tells us a lot in conjunction with BTD's claim. But Math is trying to walk away from this now. I'm not asking for a role. I don't care about that. I just want to know if she was freaking blocked or not.

[Bulbazak]

They insinutated they were blocked; that should be enough.

Except they didn't. It initially looked like they might have gotten mixed up with BTD, but Math didn't back down or say so. And every other time I've asked, they've instead said "I don't know.". Math is trying their best to dodge this question, and they don't need your help. They made a boo boo, and they don't want to deal with it. So I'm going to keep on pushing until everyone else wises up or they actually answer the question.

What's wrong about Bulbazak?

His reads and pushes are largely rhetoric.

This whole game is rhetoric. Unless you're trying to say that my reads and pushes aren't genuine, in which case, you better back that up and quit dancing around me.

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, Titus, yay/nay/why

Not lynching protective claims. Not today. The lynch pool is {Math, BTD, Quantum, Nos}.

[Bulbazak]

We have scummed PoE in Light. Gin/Titus/Creature are off the table. Pick someone in those 4.

[Bulbazak]

Going to spend what little work time I have left prioritizing my to do list in game.

[Bulbazak]

@Titus: Can you tell me how Creature approached the claim? You and Gin have been straightforward with the protection claims, but Creature has not. He just says that he has role related reasons for thinking there's a strongman, but he's not claiming protective. I'm double checking some things now, but something might be wrong there.

[Bulbazak]

Okay. Creature checks out in his ISO for never wavering from strongman. So that increases actually having a result. And I still have one outside protective possibility that explains everything. So nothing. I was just concerned by Creature saying he had information pointing to a strongman, but he wasn't a protective. I couldn't think of anything that'd back that claim up. I found something in thread that says otherwise.

[Bulbazak]

Because there's no need, and it's best to keep scum in the dark about some things.

[Bulbazak]

Titus, I'll get to all that Math stuff I promised you tonight. There was something else I wanted to talk to you about, but I can't remember it at the moment.

[Bulbazak]

@bulba I'm thinking 1 scum in the prot softs, ideal play for a strongman would be to claim prot so they can't be blamed for the kill

And you're going for the hard protect claim instead of the one that says "I'm not protective, but I targeted Snarky and have information that points to a strongman yo!"? And even if that was the case, that can get PoE'd later. Right now we have 3 people giving us 4 names to find scum in. You don't lynch those 3. For today, they're untouchable, and I'm going with Creature (the irony that he's ignoring his own advice from earlier in the day) that doing so is a scum claim.

don't really understand your unwillingness to question them now, I really doubt we have 3 prots in light, that's ridiculously townsided

I expect us to have at least that much. 3 protects don't seem out of the ordinary. And since it's actually 2 protects and one not quite a protect, that's even more likely. And guess what? PT placement is random! Would you be saying the same thing if the PT was filled with 3 investigatives as well? Which role ended up on what person and in what PT was completely random, so get rid of that crap excuse. And scum also have safe claims, so that reasoning still wouldn't work.

Unvote
Vote BTD6_maker

Gin, you better move that vote.

[Bulbazak]

Vedith, you know what to do if you're town.

[Bulbazak]

Nos, you last had Titus as town and BTD6 as scum. Vote BTD6.

[Bulbazak]

Don't you start that with me Gin. One moment Titus is in a town block, and the next you leap on the shiny new opportunity to put a rope around her throat. I think BTD6 is likely to flip town, but he's a useless town that I won't feel bad about lynching. Especially if it's to save one of the freaking town protectives.

[Bulbazak]

If Titus is lynched and flips town, you better kill me tonight, Gin, because you're not going to live to see day 4.

[Bulbazak]

First off, Titus was never in my townbloc

You're right. I got confused by remembering the whole conversation and thought she was.

Thirdly, make it worse actually, you declare someone town with 8 days till deadline and go "lynch him instead"

I've never shown any interest in Titus today. In fact, I've been pretty adamant about not lynching in the protect claims and PoEing scum from the remaining 4. Heck, most of my Math push has been me arguing with Titus about her Math read, so I definitely haven't had a scumread there in a long time. And when a strong townread of mine like that is suddenly, without warning, wagoned, I go ballistic and will do whatever it takes to dismantle the wagon, even if I have to compromise to create a counterwagon. This isn't anything new. I did the same thing in HU2 and in some other games I can't remember right now.

And don't lecture me about "8 days until deadline" when you helped start up another random wagon, that didn't fit with what your supposed view of the game state with results is, and yelled "Let's lynch them instead!". I would absolutely still prefer Math here, or heck, even Nos, but I won't lose any sleep if BTD6 has to be the lynch so that you idiots don't throw away all the hard work from the last day phase of narrowing scum down.

Fourthly, you don't get to make arguments going "if these flip this or that, I'm lynching you for it." It's fake as shit and means nothing to me.

I did some analysis during the night that highly suggested you were scum. I would have at least posted that in here at day start, but the JK claim made me think I was wrong. But I'm not going to ignore your opportunistic voting pattern. If you're town, you're doing a crappy job. If you're scum, I'm confident that I can bury you.

Fifthly, anyone can be scum in the light, but yee forgets that.

Don't start that crap with me. Today is all about finding the guaranteed scum. And "anyone can be scum" is a rhetorical empty line that's only used to say "I know that you have a lot of evidence that points to them not being scum, but let's lynch there anyway because there's always the

possibility

that they

can

be." Heck, you can say that about anyone. That's not scumhunting. That's keeping options open.

Sixthly, scum protec is a thing.

It is, but I don't think that's the case here.

Seventhly, Titus could also be lying.

She could be, but I don't think she is.

Don't be sassy with me.

I'll do whatever I want, MOM!

My theory is that every player was given one role that could be useful for town (such bodyguard, cop, voyeur), including scum, but scum were also given a role that could be useful for them.

Scum have fake claims. I also doubt that boons are something as simple as a second power. It's probably a general buff of some sort. Hopefully we find out upon a flip.

idk why players scumread someone for thinking TWIE scumslipped.

I'm actually more concerned about the ones who avoided that soft claim.

Bulba is scum because he hasn't given one genuine read all game and his pushes have no belief behind them

And I'll ask again, what about my reads aren't genuine? Give examples and tell me how my pushes have no belief. I'm getting sick and tired of you dropping scumreads on me with BS reasoning that you refuse to back up and then you Zoidberging out of the thread.

his response to the Titus wagon is completely fake.

How? Because I could have handled this a whole lot better as scum, and I would have been a heck of a lot more methodical. If you're going to talk crap about me, you better be able to back it up.

I don't understand how I'm scumread :/

You have no

genuine

reads and 90% of your thread activity is manipulation.

The way you followed me on Math was sketchy.

Gin voted Math because I asked her to, tyvm. Get over your ego.

On to page 191.

I have some work I really need to do first. I'll try to get back to the rest of this soon.

[Bulbazak]

wait, questionare...

Math kept pushing about mass roleblock right and not strongman right?

BTD got no result after checking Math?

Math is ascetic trying to blow smoke to cover that fact?

P-edit: Babe, it's purely people in the light I'm sorting.

But the result also somehow clears Math.

How?

What started a wagon on obvTown Titus?

CE. I'm more ticked off at the 2 knuckleheads that followed.

Math

It's a lie to say you don't know

Uhmmm it is literally impossible for me to know. Sorry. :/ Don't know why you're saying that.

You claimed you were roleblocked. Now you're trying to say that you don't know if you were roleblocked. Stop playing dumb. You've been doing that recently, and people are letting you get away with it.

What makes a read genuine is intangible; there is a level of thought that town have to go through in order to sort alignment that is absent from scum and that scum have to fake; there is a level of investment that town have in their reads and a level of critical engagement in their reads that scum have to fake - reading for whether those elements are present and have that depth is how you determine whether a read is genuine.

I might be able to agree with you here, but I'm also able to try to explain what I'm seeing if I need to. It's not always perfect, but there is something that translates to whether I think something is genuine or not. That's what I've been asking for, and that's what you've been ignoring while you hand out nebulous reads based on the word "genuine".

No one is talking to me except you; not sure how anyone can reach me if they don't talk.

BULL. CRAP. I've been trying to talk to you since n1 in the PT. You avoid me, drop scumreads out of nowhere, refuse to explain crap, and then you starting crying about how no one is talking to you. I've reached out several times and tried to talk reads with you, so this statement that no one wants to play with you is garbage.

Yes, shes posted the same bullshit list several times now

Pot, meet Kettle.

I actually don't feel like talking anymore. I'm upset knowing that Gin is upset and this game is more or less shit until I'm able to resolve that.

OH LOOK! SHE'S RUNNING AWAY AGAIN! HEY EVERYONE, STOP BEING MEAN TO POOR CE! SHE JUST WANTS TO TALK TO YOU! NOW STOP TALKING TO HER SO SHE DOESN'T GET UPSET. AND THEN SHE CAN FEEL FREE TO COME IN, DROP NEBULOUS READS, AND RUN OUT AGAIN.

On to page 197.

I should have time once more tonight to finish catching up. I'm just getting tired of this crap.

[Bulbazak]

I mostly cast because of 79 CE.

Why?

It's also called Negative Utility to balance the game, Math

It's also called be a useless freaking role. I might believe it being a fake claim. I don't believe it being an actual scum role.

dram is probs town

Town: Math, 79 CE, Titus, Ginngie, Bulba, Creature, QR, dram
Null: Vedith, A2, Rauth, BTD
Scum: Aronis, TWIE, Nos, texcat

basically where I'm at, lol bai

That is the weirdest readlist but you're town so okay.

I need to figure out what this means.

UGH. I'm back.
Somehow Titus got pushed up to L-2 while I was gone.

Also:

Oh I missed Dram's vote. I'm dumb. There's only one scum.

And yet I'm voting you as well...

Hey, listen to the tone here. This is screaming Rauth knows I am town here. He doesn't seem happy I am at L minus 2.

Wouldn't Rauth-scum want you to get lynched?

Titus, both hoods are incredibly likely to have at least one scum in them. We don't need night results to tell us that.

True, but the results put 1 guaranteed scum in a pool of 4. That's a 25% shot at guaranteed scum. That, and catching said scum makes our protective roles even stronger. This is a no brainer.

Yey we know there are two scum in the light side and we have a bunch of townreads there, you know what that means?

How do we know? I think it's likely there's 2, but I only know of the 1 for sure.

I've never shown any interest in Titus today. In fact, I've been pretty adamant about not lynching in the protect claims and PoEing scum from the remaining 4. Heck, most of my Math push has been me arguing with Titus about her Math read, so I definitely haven't had a scumread there in a long time. And when a strong townread of mine like that is suddenly, without warning, wagoned, I go ballistic and will do whatever it takes to dismantle the wagon, even if I have to compromise to create a counterwagon. This isn't anything new. I did the same thing in HU2 and in some other games I can't remember right now.

Your reluctance to lynch in the protect claims baffles me. It's role madness. We're going to lynch a PR. Are you saying that protective roles are more valuable than investigative roles? What roles are you willing to lynch? I think that the strongman was trying to get the jump on any trackers or watchers that saw them kill Snarky. And my bet is that the strongman who invented a protective claim is Titus. Surely the scum would have discussed what to do in case they were seen, and have a claim ready.

And what do you think roles are there for? To be pretty figurines that you put on a shelf and look at? We have 3 PRs that have told us there's 1 guaranteed scum in a group of 4. You don't then turn around and lynch said PRs. We're going to lynch a PR claim, yes, but that doesn't mean we can just lynch around willy-nilly.

[Bulbazak]

Why?

Right after voting, they went to sleep, and I didn't want to disappoint them.

So? I'm really not seeing the connection here.

How do we know?

Either there's a bus driver who made Ginn jailkeep BTD6_maker or scum used strongman on Snarky and rbed BTD6.

EDIT: Actually, BTD6_maker could be lying.

And you see where I'm coming from. I think it's likely there's a roleblocker, but it's not confirmed.

@Bulba, Cognitive dissonance.

Of course scum!Rauth wants me to be lynched, that's why he's voting me, but the words of the posts basically scream he knows I am town. He wanted a safe, discrediting push and it blew up on him.

I see what you mean. That little exchange kinda confused me. I wasn't thinking about him actually voting you.

[Bulbazak]

Titus, did anyone actually ask Rauth about his role when you shipped him over?

[Bulbazak]

I've just found it odd that he was voted in for that reason, but no one's said anything about it since.

[Bulbazak]

I thought you guys would press him further than that. I mean besides the fact that it was obvious he wasn't connected to Aronis.

[Bulbazak]

Titus, I'm losing the amount of craps I give about this day phase. Like, I really wouldn't mind lynching Math still, but I feel that's out, and I'm not sure how I feel about that. I'm drained.

[Bulbazak]

I've just found it odd that he was voted in for that reason, but no one's said anything about it since.

Yeah we got what we wanted from that. Basically, that Aronis was lying and Rautherdir has some other link.

Ya think? Aronis's sarcasm was a mile thick.

I'll take you on that Math action, though. I'm too tired to put up much more of a fight today. I'll try to get to some of that stuff that I promised you earlier.

[Bulbazak]

Also, if there's a vote tomorrow to bring someone else to light, don't choose Vedith. I'm really not sure he's town.

[Bulbazak]

Will wagon Math to get them to claim since they're beating around the bush if BTD blocked them or not.

Math never claimed BTD blocked them. They just claimed they were blocked.

It's a funny analogy, it's just completely inaccurate.

It's completely accurate. Everytime I try to interact or talk to you, you "nope" me or ignore me. And then you drop a scumread out of nowhere and just peace out. And I try to talk to you, and I try to ask you simple questions, and you just ignore them. Then you start crying about how everyone ignores you and doesn't want to talk to you. Seriously?!

[Bulbazak]

And this is why I'm tired and just want this day to end...

[Bulbazak]

I just got ninja'd by everyone.

[Bulbazak]

Will wagon Math to get them to claim since they're beating around the bush if BTD blocked them or not.

Math never claimed BTD blocked them. They just claimed they were blocked.

It's a funny analogy, it's just completely inaccurate.

It's completely accurate. Everytime I try to interact or talk to you, you "nope" me or ignore me. And then you drop a scumread out of nowhere and just peace out. And I try to talk to you, and I try to ask you simple questions, and you just ignore them. Then you start crying about how everyone ignores you and doesn't want to talk to you. Seriously?!

Funny you keep saying this falsehood.

You could just quote it. Oh wait you can't.

I don't know if I was blocked.

This is my original question, the one you keep dodging:

BTD6 could have blocked me or maybe he didn't.

Are you saying that you were blocked now?

[Bulbazak]

I just quoted it Math. Now what?

[Bulbazak]

Still waiting on the quote that doesn't exist of where I said I was blocked.

Still don't see it in what you cited.

All I have said is wifom of whether I am blocked or not as that is all I can give.

You literally just said it in that quote! I thought maybe you had just mispoke, but I needed to check anyway, because that could suggest other possibilities. But you doubled down when you said "I don't know.", so I know it wasn't just you misspeaking. You had some reason for thinking that you may have been blocked. So don't try to play the semantics game here. You were the one who threw that out. You were the one who claimed the possibility. No one else did.

[Bulbazak]

Bulba is all pretense.

You keep saying this, but you refuse to back it up. Like anything you do, it's just hot air.

[Bulbazak]

They still said BTD could have blocked them. This is not a bad cherry pick. That's literally what they say. They still floated the idea of BTD blocking them. So the question is simple: "Were you blocked? Y/N."

[Bulbazak]

I mean, seriously, that p-edit doesn't change a thing.

[Bulbazak]

And if that's seriously what Math meant, if they never meant to say block and just mistyped twice, then it shouldn't be too hard to say, "I mispoke, Bulba, you numbnuts! I meant track. I just got confused with BTD's claim.", instead of dodging and just saying "I dunno." over and over again.

[Bulbazak]

I mean this is not a hard question. And this is not why I'm scumreading Math. It's definitely part of it now, because it's not hard to just answer a simple question.

[Bulbazak]

I might be. I thought it was the most likely possibility that one of us got our signals crossed somewhere, but that's still not a hard question to address. Especially when I quote the post it's from. I just didn't do so after awhile, because I didn't want the quote box to get too big. Math could have handled this real quick instead of constantly dodging the question. That's my issue.

[Bulbazak]

I. Don't. Care. About. Mathblade's. Role.

I just want them to stop dodging a very simple question. And I don't like that CE decides to come in and play WK. Yes, it's a very simple question. Yes, it might be based on a mistake. But why is it so dang hard for Math to just answer and address instead of avoiding it?

[Bulbazak]

And when the question is "Are you claiming you were blocked now?", "I don't know" is not a correct answer. It's a yes or no question.

[Bulbazak]

If this was all based on a misreading, then Math could have said "No, that's not what I'm saying at all.", and we'd continue on our merry way. If that was what they were saying, then we now have more to consider when trying to piece together what scum were doing in the light PT. In total, it doesn't say anything about Math's actual role. I could care less what Math is, and that's never been what my push has been about. And I hate that this is what my Math read is being simplified into, because it's really about Math keeping options open and distracting from the strongman hunt.

[Bulbazak]

Apparently CE just wants to fling crap at a wall and lynch based on how the fecal matter coalesces. Because screw giving reasoning! Am I right? We'll just call random people scum, insult their reasoning by saying reasoning and argumentation is scummy, and then just call it a day, because we can't be bothered to actually explain why we think what we think. Because there's no thinking involved. It's just random squawking at empty spaces and barking at figments.

[Bulbazak]

I really wish I had a bunch a vig shots right now.

[Bulbazak]

I'd lose some townreads and meh reads, but it'd make the game a heck of a lot more tolerable. And maybe, just maybe, I wouldn't feel like I had to punch a monitor right now.

[Bulbazak]

Gin, can you just vote BTD. Nancy's just going to continue to crap post and talk about how she's just waiting for people to respond and explain reads to her when she can't be bothered to do the same. And I realize now that she's never going to do that. She just wants to talk crap and then get all mad and justified and walk out. I'm done. I'm emotionally exhausted at this point, and I feel like I did after my knockdown dragout with you d1 and everything's jumbled again. I have some strong town reads, but it feels like the sure fire ones aren't quite there anymore. And I don't know if it's scummy or not or just annoying, but I'm just past the point of caring. Maybe I'll feel better tomorrow after some rest. But as it stands right now, I don't think I can stand much more with this without either punching something or breaking down and crying.

I just can't.

P-edit: Thank you.

[Bulbazak]

[Bulbazak]

Vote Nosferatu

[Bulbazak]

@Bulba if you're town I'm not sure I understand the reluctance to go over reads with me when I'm actually available for it; you were complaining yesterday in a pretty abrasive way that I refused to talk with you even though there were no occasions where that happened for game-related reasons; both times it was because I was unwell IRL - that seems pretty disrespectful to me and not really in observance of the facts. If you want to talk about your reads in a substantive way then I am all ears; if you want to produce a readslist that would be pretty helpful for starters.

I've never been reluctant to discuss reads with you. In fact, I've pushed for it. You've always been the one who was too busy or ignored me, only to follow it up with throwing down scumreads and then leaving before anyone could talk to you.

If you want my reads list, I'll repost it from the PT.

[Bulbazak]

Town

Titus
Ginngie
Creature
TheWayItEnds
Aronis
QuantumRadius

Null/Town

A2

Null

79CE

Null/Scum

Texcat
Mathblade

Scum

Vedith
Nosferatu
Dramonic

[Bulbazak]

I mean, Titus should essentially be conf. town by now. I have more to say about this, but apparently we're keeping silent about how the vote went down.

[Bulbazak]

You're going to have to share why Titus should be confirmed town.

Because scum tried to weaken the protective block in the light. They essentially put up big freaking neon lights reading "Titus is Town Bodyguard!" when they made the switch.

[Bulbazak]

I don't think Creature was important enough, and they may have been originally planning on killing Gin. Titus also had a lot of suspicion, so that could potentially kill two birds with one stone. There's no way scum Titus moves out of the light. That was a move forced on her, which means that she's town.

Regardless, I think we situated night actions last night in such a way as to make scum have to try to play around our unknowns. I had Creature protect Gin, and then I implied that my role would help stymy the scum team as well.

[Bulbazak]

Vote Mathblade

Now for the second one.

[Bulbazak]

Titus can't argue with PoE.

[Bulbazak]

Quantum and A2 have just been elevated to conf. town. That only leaves Mathblade as an explanation for the Snarky kill.

[Bulbazak]

Then wait, how is Math the strongman again?

A shot got through all the protectives on Snarky n1. Gin claimed having information that scum was in the PT. Titus was the first to say there was a strongman. Gin revealed being a jailkeeper. Creature came forward last. That left a pool in which the only remaining player is Math. Math also tried to discredit the strongman assertion all day yesterday and wanted us to look elsewhere.

[Bulbazak]

I think the Rauth kill might point to Aronis being town.

[Bulbazak]

Why would scum kill Rauth?

[Bulbazak]

A2, GINNGIE, BULBA, QR, CREATURE, 79 CE, TITUS

Take CE out and we have a town bloc.

like I love how alisae shooting scum "confirmed" 7 people as town

The shot only confirmed 2 town: A2 and Quantum. Gin and Titus were confirmed yesterday by the strongman results. It's obvious reading the light PT that their results are legit. Creature is the other protective. And as for me, most of the light PT's faith is coming from stuff said in the light PT. My role should seal the deal, and I plan on full claiming in the PT once Math is dead and no one can listen in.

Night one I redirected Snarky to BTD6. I did that because Snarky has a tendency to flake out and not submit actions so Snarky would have gotten something if he did and I would have full claimed had he been alive.

So you essentially moved the cop's investigation onto town so he was guaranteed to get a town result. I checked my result from last night, and there's no indication on who is actually targeted. So assuming you're telling the truth about being a redirector (you're not), you essentially set up a fake result to come from Snarky.

OR a busdriver tried to save Ginngie's life and indadvertently killed Snarky.

Um...What?

Mainly it's about figuring out what Nosferatu did. Him not saying much makes it impossible to figure out.

Scum roleblocker flips. There was a town PR who claimed to be blocked. Hmm...Now I wonder what could have happened...

Night two, I redirected Bulba onto Rauth.

Why?

I strongly believe Bulba is scum because of this, especially when he didn't list me in his top tier town after last night despite crumbing vig shooting me multiple times and the fact that I lived.

First, I never crumbed vig. Second, I'm not a vig. Third, even if I was a vig, why would my kill apparently not going through make me think you're magically super duper town? Fourth, if you thought I was a vig, then why redirect me onto Rauth? Fifth, this line of reasoning is especially crap, because one of the first things I said at dawn was that you were not ascetic, which is something I couldn't say according to your world view. Yet you haven't adjusted. At all. You're so busy trying to play ahead of everyone that you messed up majorly.

I specifically told him NOT TO CONTINUE CRUMBING.

I've never crumbed anything about my role. Heck, even if you thought I did, and that I was saying I was a vig, why didn't you go after me at all? I was in the dark after all. That should have made any sort of crumb like that impossible knowledge for me.

And let's not forget the fact that you are severely messing up your fake claim because THAT'S NOT HOW A FREAKING REDIRECTOR WORKS! A redirector moves all the actions taken by A and moves them onto B as the new target. So Snarky redirected is just Snarky investigating BTD. It's not Snarky now looking at BTD AND everyone targeting Snarky targeting BTD. That's not how that works. You're messing up your own fake claim and expecting everyone to believe you.

And how about for someone who pitches a fit whenever they think they see someone crumbing is now going, "Hey everyone! I'm a redirector and I have proof! Look at all my crumbs!". Please.

BUS DRIVER.

SCUM SWAPPED GINNGIE AND SNARKY. WHEN I REDIRECTED SNARKY I LIKELY REDIRECTED YOU ONTO BTD6.

And this completely ignores a scum roleblocker existing. It's like in order to protect your own butt, you have to go for the most complicated solution possible.

Bulba townreads her because she was switched to the Dark despite the fact that scum didn't even kill in protectives.

The Nos flip shows that scum have been using the switches for fairly straightforward purposes. In that regard, there's only one reason to switch Titus out of the Light: To get her out of the way.

Part of me can't tell if Math is a dueling scum wagon or counter.

It's a dueling scum wagon.

[Bulbazak]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Redirector

Redirector works by switching the target of a player. It doesn't make everyone targeting that player target another player. That's a deflector.

P-edit: The switch won't happen until dawn. We'll have an entire night phase without scum. The switch can only happen if the two sides are even, which they aren't right now.

[Bulbazak]

If you're talking about the switch, it was a frame job on me. It got Titus out of the light to keep her from protecting, and it was meant to make a mislynch on me more likely.

[Bulbazak]

Just look back at the prevailing attitudes towards my slot d2 and it becomes really obvious.

[Bulbazak]

Okay, then what happened with the Cirno/Kelvin switch? Kelvin ended up being roleblocker, and given that information, it was fairly easy to piece things together.

And yeah, it was a frame job on me. You want to know how I know? Because I'm freaking town! Duh!

[Bulbazak]

Look back at the end of day 2. Look how many "Bulba is scum" softs there are. I was on and pushed the Eddie lynch. The tides were turning against me end of d2. Put 2 and 2 together genius. Scum don't need wagons to be a thing to make a future lynch viable. They just have to pay freaking attention.

[Bulbazak]

it means that you drop the spin and stop townreading Titus for bad reasons.

The Titus town read is because she's a freaking bodyguard that was moved out of the light PT. I mean, what the heck?

And I was townreading her before then. That action just made her conf. town, and it should have for everyone, but it seems that scum are bent on perpetuating the "Titus is scum" story.

[Bulbazak]

How Titus approached her claim in the light PT points to her being town. Ginngie never claimed that she knew scum was in the PT because of a failed protection. She just said she had role related reasons for thinking there was scum in the PT. Titus was the first to say that there was a strongman, because she protected Snarky. She had no way of knowing that Ginngie also had the same information for the same reason. And there's no reason for scum Titus to out such information. It also doesn't make sense for scum Titus to remove herself from the Light PT, where she'd have power, to the Dark PT, where she wouldn't and where everyone HATED her. That's kinda self-defeating. Also, scum Titus would be interested in manipulating me if I was being moved into the Light PT. There's no reason for Titus as scum to move me over to light and then not use the night to pocket me. It makes zero sense to stay on the opposite side of the game as me and leave me alone with Gin, Creature, and the rest. That'd be her surrendering control.

[Bulbazak]

Except Gin never claimed JK or protective at that point. She just said she had information that pointed to scum in the PT. Titus was the first to claim protective AND said there was a strongman. That was not anticipating what Gin was about to say and getting ahead of it. That was a genuine claim.

[Bulbazak]

Imagine that you have a result, but you play coy with it. Then someone else independently comes forward with the exact same result for the exact same reason, a reason you never gave out publicly. What would your read be on that person?

[Bulbazak]

This works for read reasoning also.

[Bulbazak]

Imagine that you have a result, but you play coy with it. Then someone else independently comes forward with the exact same result for the exact same reason, a reason you never gave out publicly. What would your read be on that person?

I don't have to imagine; I have the scenario in front me. I'm telling you that I don't think it is at all unreasonable that Titus, with full knowledge of scum actions, could've guessed that Gin was a protective and claimed the only possible protective role that would not garner a direct cc due to being potentially a duplicate for how useless it is.

TITUS HAD NO WAY OF KNOWING GIN WAS A PROTECTIVE! Gin could have very easily have been an investigative given how she softed. Titus came forward as a protective with strongman information before it was known in any capacity that Gin was protective. That's not playing ahead of the curve. That's being freaking psychic.

P-edit: Except at the time there was no reason to out that.

[Bulbazak]

Math continues to mess up their fake claim. Ignores the real elephant in the room.

[Bulbazak]

Eh, Math feels town honestly.

PoE says they're not.

[Bulbazak]

Your PoE is based on extremely weak reasoning and conjecture.

It's based on claims. The pool is down to Math only.

[Bulbazak]

The Light PT n1: {Gin, Titus, Creature, BTD, Snarky, Nos, Math, Quantum}
Snarky dies: {Gin, Titus, Creature, BTD, Nos, Math Quantum}
Protective claims from Gin/Titus/Creature pointing to strongman: {BTD, Nos, Math, Quantum}
BTD lynched: {Nos, Math Quantum}
Nos vigged, flips roleblocker, not strongman. Quantum cleared for role reasons relating to A2.: {Math}

What am I missing here?

[Bulbazak]

Nothing so far has explained the Snarky kill, and Math is simultaneously throwing up Bus Driver and boon as a way to deflect attention away. They've been doing this since the results were announced d2.

[Bulbazak]

Furthermore please stop saying strongman when it isn't confirmed. That'd be amazing. I am getting sick and tired of people hunting for something that likely doesn't exist.

"Stop looking for me! Stop looking for me!"

The most likely answer is bus drive as I see zero in BTD6's ISO that would cause scum to block btd6.

Wrong! Simplest answer is usually the right one. There's a scum roleblocker flipped. BTD6 was blocked. Simple as that. Anything else is purposely jumping through hoops.

You've removed Titus from the PoE

What part of protective claim don't you get. I've already explained why her claim was town. You've just been putting your fingers in your ears and going "La la la la!".

why is QR cleared?

He's the one that told us we needed to get A2 into the light PT immediately.

[Bulbazak]

CE must be purposely obtuse at this point.

Anyone else notice Math is focusing just on the mechanical stuff? They can't fight that, so they're raging against it. Anything else brought up or asked, the actual pertinent details that speak to their intent, they ignore.

[Bulbazak]

@CE: I've gone over in explicit detail why Titus is town. I've explained why it doesn't make sense for her to be scum. Everything in the thread is pointing to a beyond a doubt town Titus. At this point, you're in conf. bias mode just to keep Titus as a scumread.

[Bulbazak]

Night one I redirected Snarky to BTD6. I did that because Snarky has a tendency to flake out and not submit actions so Snarky would have gotten something if he did and I would have full claimed had he been alive.

So you essentially moved the cop's investigation onto town so he was guaranteed to get a town result. I checked my result from last night, and there's no indication on who is actually targeted. So assuming you're telling the truth about being a redirector (you're not), you essentially set up a fake result to come from Snarky.

Night two, I redirected Bulba onto Rauth.

Why?

I strongly believe Bulba is scum because of this, especially when he didn't list me in his top tier town after last night despite crumbing vig shooting me multiple times and the fact that I lived.

First, I never crumbed vig. Second, I'm not a vig. Third, even if I was a vig, why would my kill apparently not going through make me think you're magically super duper town? Fourth, if you thought I was a vig, then why redirect me onto Rauth? Fifth, this line of reasoning is especially crap, because one of the first things I said at dawn was that you were not ascetic, which is something I couldn't say according to your world view. Yet you haven't adjusted. At all. You're so busy trying to play ahead of everyone that you messed up majorly.

I specifically told him NOT TO CONTINUE CRUMBING.

I've never crumbed anything about my role. Heck, even if you thought I did, and that I was saying I was a vig, why didn't you go after me at all? I was in the dark after all. That should have made any sort of crumb like that impossible knowledge for me.

And let's not forget the fact that you are severely messing up your fake claim because THAT'S NOT HOW A FREAKING REDIRECTOR WORKS! A redirector moves all the actions taken by A and moves them onto B as the new target. So Snarky redirected is just Snarky investigating BTD. It's not Snarky now looking at BTD AND everyone targeting Snarky targeting BTD. That's not how that works. You're messing up your own fake claim and expecting everyone to believe you.

And how about for someone who pitches a fit whenever they think they see someone crumbing is now going, "Hey everyone! I'm a redirector and I have proof! Look at all my crumbs!". Please.

And how about this question you never answered in the light PT: Why did you vote for Aronis to join the light PT on d2?

[Bulbazak]

These are all not mechanic related, Math.

[Bulbazak]

@CE: I've gone over in explicit detail why Titus is town. I've explained why it doesn't make sense for her to be scum. Everything in the thread is pointing to a beyond a doubt town Titus. At this point, you're in conf. bias mode just to keep Titus as a scumread.

Haven't been arguing that she's scum; have been arguing that the reasoning you've given me for townreading her doesn't seem particularly good at all. You've not given me any reason to believe that your argumentation is better than what I argue; you've not talked about her play beyond conjecture.

If I could quote her claim from the PT I would, but it's without a doubt town.

B) Asked and answered you crumbed vig and threatened to shoot me

I've never crumbed anything.

and continued to do so in light "double check some things"

I was talking about breaking the game tonight.

C) Already pointed out where you did. Just search your ISO for jump.

No you haven't. You quoted yourself a lot, and I don't believe those mean squat.

E) Because Aronis is obvTown. Reasons.

That still doesn't mean that he should be allowed in the light.

And you still never explained why you wanted Rauth dead.

[Bulbazak]

Also, Math is not ascetic.

I'll need to double check some things tonight, but if this works, we may be able to break the game tonight.

[Bulbazak]

I mean, Math literally had problems with the first, so them trying to say that they're scumreading me based on a mythical vig crumb is bunk. I literally said that I targeted Math and got a result. Math KNEW I wasn't a vig. And the second is that quote in context. Math KNEW it was about potentially breaking the game tonight. There's no way to mistake that as being connnected to a vig.

I can't quote anyone else, but I'm allowed to quote myself.

[Bulbazak]

The Nos wagon has literally nothing to do with with Bulba and I?


Also, why do you town read Nos?

@Math

I don't townread Nos. I don't scumread Nos either. Nos is just inactive.

Yes it does. You've threatened a wagon on a ton of other people yet are not willing to vote someone who hasn't posted in a long ass time. Threaten wagons on me and now Nos.

Don't tell me this has nothing to do with Bulba when you and Bulba push me then hop on a Nos wagon.

Really gotta go.

Oh looky here. Math defending Nos.

Gut says Bulba will hop onto Nos next time Bulba is online

They were right, though. If that wagon was still around when I got back, I would have switched.

[Bulbazak]

@Gin: Everything about their claim is shaky. I guarantee that once I claim, some of my statements in the PT will make sense.

[Bulbazak]

Especially this one:

I was also dumb last night. I promise not to be dumb on future nights.

I think I may have caused some aneurysms in the dead PT by not using my ability optimally.

[Bulbazak]

[Bulbazak]

@Gin: He's also scum. So there's that.

[Bulbazak]

When you claiming in thread/PT?

When Math is dead and I'm confident scum won't know what we're talking about in the PT.

@Gin: He's also scum. So there's that.

Sorry, no, the way he claimed his role type in the Dark PT was completely obvious town, he's basically conf!town to me at this point.

Very funny.

[Bulbazak]

All I'm hearing is a huge "Nuh-uh!". I've stopped taking it seriously.

[Bulbazak]

I've given several solid reasons for Titus being town. Your answer is essentially, "Well, she could still be scum, because she could be super smart and psychic!". That's not a realistic rebuttal of anything I said. That's just blatant refusal to even consider that she might be town. Heck, even Quantum, the strongest pusher of her wagon, has admitted that he's reconsidered his scum read based on everything I presented. So this is not me be delusional. This is you being hard headed.

[Bulbazak]

Okay, so how about an easier question for you: Why is Titus scum?

[Bulbazak]

I think I know what Creature is, and it's close enough.

[Bulbazak]

Please don't tell me I've been wrong about you this entire time...

[Bulbazak]

Titus, I'm going to need you to look at the reactions to the forming town bloc at some point to figure out which are town kneejerks and which are scum desperation.

[Bulbazak]

Town bloc: Ginngie, Titus, Creature, Bulbazak, Quantum, A2

I think that's about as tight as we can get it before running into problems. We should be able to PoE from there. I'd also like to use the Light PT as a base of operations after we excise Math.

[Bulbazak]

Keep pretending you didn't acknowledge my saying you weren't ascetic. Keep it up.

[Bulbazak]

That's called me having a result, Math.

[Bulbazak]

You can't have a result on me.

And yet I got a result PM this morning.

you crumbed vig.

No matter how much you say that, it doesn't make it true. Especially since you acknowledged this in the PT:

Also, Math is not ascetic.

That's called me having a result, Math.

What result did you get?

Given that I haven't full claimed yet, I'll keep that to myself for now.

[Bulbazak]

Do you know said result, without outing what it is, must be on Math?

No. I double checked after Math's claim. It says that I submitted on Math, but then just says my target when referring to the result.

I don't get why math is playing chicken shit with calling it a guilty. Math voted specifically with the reason that they redirected him.

Because they tried to play ahead of me and failed miserably. That's why they're playing chicken with my actual role and grasping onto non-existent vig crumbs, even though they acknowledged my actual claiming to have a result in the PT.

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, I know what you think, can you just lay out precisely what happened without the conclusions?

I sent in my night action targeting Math. This morning I got a PM saying that I submitted an action on Math. "Your target [result]."

Titus and Bulba, both of you have said now that you're voting someone you think is town.

Bulba with BTD, and Titus with Math.

So did you. Your point being?

Seriously I don't call it a guilty because bus driver is proven to exist.

DO YOU GET IT NOW GIN? MATH CAN'T CALL IT A GUILTY, BECAUSE THEY KNOW I'LL COME BACK TOWN. JUST LIKE THEY COULDN'T BACK THE SEARCH FOR SCUM PR'S YESTERDAY BECAUSE THEY KNEW BTD WOULD FLIP TOWN. I FREAKING TOLD YOU THIS YESTERDAY, BUT NO, YOU HAD TO GO AFTER TITUS AND THROW AWAY A FREAKING LYNCH ON SCUM! AND NOW THEY'RE DOING IT AGAIN AND YOU'RE JUST HERPADERPING ALL OVER THE THREAD AND THROWING AWAY THE ONE ADVANTAGE WE HAD BECAUSE CONF. SCUM TRIED A LAST MINUTE GUILTY CLAIM AND FAILED MISERABLY. AND NOW THEY WON'T EVEN STAND BY IT!

DO. YOU. GET. IT. NOW?!

The claim's in the PT. Now we have to play perfectly instead of having some leeway. Thanks for that.

[Bulbazak]

Confirmed scum, Gin. And you're letting them get away.

[Bulbazak]

Why did you want Rauth dead?

[Bulbazak]

Math is scum. Dramonic is scum. Last scum is somewhere in {Aronis, CE, Texcat, Vedith}. Texcat or Vedith are more likely, but I need to include the rest just in case I'm wrong. Everyone else is town, but I doubt you'll believe me until it's too late.

If you're going to mislynch me for the same reason as Eddie, get it over with.

Congratulation. The scum team succeeded in breaking the town bloc.

[Bulbazak]

I've officially lost patience with this game. I'm gonna take a nap.

Hopefully you guys actually get your heads out of your rectum and realize Math is confirmed scum here, and I'm the counter wagon. You remember that thing I said scum were trying to make happen that CE said was untrue? Guess what? It's happening right now. Scum moved me to the light, and Math set me up for today. It's the most freaking obvious thing in the world, but like most obvious things in this game, nobody sees it. Titus and Gin are town because of claims and how they handled said claims. Creature is town based on play, the fact that Gin didn't die last night, and that Nos essentially scum claimed with a bookmarked quote of Creature's. Nos doesn't do that to a buddy. That was scum Nos being proud. Quantum is town for telling us we needed to get A2 in the light immediately. A2 is town for the shot.

If you're smart, you'll figure this out, and vote Math. I probably won't be back until after my stream tonight. If you still can't put 2 and 2 together, I hope that you choke on my lynch.

[Bulbazak]

You literally just said while voting Math, that you believe they are town.

they have what appears to be a guilty on Bulba, and you vote the person presenting a guilty when it's a clear explanation why i'm not dead.

How hard is this to freaking understand Gin?! I was Math's biggest detractor d2. Scum move me to light. Suddenly, Math claims a guilty saying they magically moved me to the scum kill, yet they don't want to completely 100% back their guilty. That's not a coincidence. I was set up to take the fall today, and Math is hoping everyone just ignores the fact that n1 PoE from the light PT points directly at them for scum. This is a game of smoke and mirrors, and you're falling for it.

[Bulbazak]

If I'm going, I'm going big with so much information on the table that you can't help but lynch the scum team. Let's start with this VC, because it's been bugging me since d1:

Eighteenth Votecount

:

Aronis - 5 (BTD6_maker, Vedith, Titus, Alisae, Aelita)

79 CE - 4 (SnarkySnowman, texcat, Frosted Kelvin Bran, Aronis)

SnarkySnowman - 2 (ThinkBig, Ginngie)
Vedith - 1 (Rautherdir)
Ginngie - 1 (79 CE)

Not Voting - 5 (QuantumRadius, Mathblade, dramonic, EddieFenix, Bulbazak)

Why aren't scum on Snarky? I've been bothered by this, and I don't have a clear answer. Snarky gives a townread on ThinkBig based on not a lot of information. It's a faux pas that scum should be eager to jump on, but nobody does. And it's not like no one noticed, because Snarky was ran up later based on the same reasoning. So why were scum uninterested here? What is it about the Aronis and CE wagons that are keeping them off of easy lynchbait?

[Bulbazak]

Oh well, scum have factional boon, so we don't need to necessarily lynch in the N1 light.

No. We're lynching Math today. We're not going after another shiny toy. This gets resolved.

Hell I am up for a Texcat wagon like I have wanted since day fucking one.

This is not how town reacts with a supposed guilty. Math is trying to edge away from this.

Okay I caught up I dunno what to make of the last few pages because Bulba being really frustrated in a way that doesn't sound genuine and/or natural to me.

You know what? I'm tired of this Bulba doesn't sound genuine BS without the balls to back it up. I'm bearing my soul here. I'm fighting against a set up 2 days in the making, and I'm leaving so much of a trail that there won't be anywhere for scum to hide. It's maddening how transparently scum Math is being here. It's maddening how clear the scum agenda is here. It's maddening how close we are to actually breaking this game, but everyone is allowing themselves to be bullied by scumzors who want to tear down any hint of town coming together. And it's especially maddening that all of this is so clear to me, and everyone can't freaking see what's in front of their face. So you better start being a lot more clear about what's not genuine here, because I am nowhere near through making noise.

how about this
what if i checked math tonight
i'm really not sure what to think

No. Math or me today. Math may be trying to inch away from this, but I'm calling a 1v1. Put up or shut up.

[Bulbazak]

Math reads town to me, but I did make you a promise.

I pointed out Math playing with a transparent scum agenda on d2. We're moving out of the realm of tonal reads. We have cold hard evidence. There's only one name left in the PoE pool for scum, and that's Mathblade.

I'm not going to derail this, but Ginngie pings me.

Ginngie's super town. Not lining up from how you'd like them to act is not scum. Gin's been making questionable choices, but I don't think that makes her scum. I've seen her majorly struggling with some of the recent reveals in the light PT. I read how she claimed. I've payed attention to how she's interacted with the game as a JK. All of those are not scum actions.

Bulbazak, just tell me who the scum are. All three or the pool. You keep guessing right, you'll keep getting my vote until you are wrong.

Math, Dramonic, with the final scum somewhere in {Texcat, Vedith, 79CE, Aronis}. 79CE and Aronis are the least likely, but I need to include them just in case my base reads there are wrong. We're getting into PoE territory now. Build a strong town core. Work outward from there.

[Bulbazak]

I know I am Town. There was scum in light as demonstrated. I thought Bulba was gonna vig me incorrectly so I pointed him at Rauth.

So you thought there was scum in the light based on the n1 actions, which you took every chance to disagree with d2, so you pointed me at someone who wasn't in the light n1?

Yes. As I said before focus was on who I scumread. My scumreads changed overnight when BTD6 flipped Town and therefore was telling the truth. This means someone blocked him else he would have got a result on me.

So I looked at who was agreeable to me.

Again, Rauth was not in the light PT n1. If you were trying to go after whoever blocked BTD, you'd have sent me into Nos or Quantum instead.

[Bulbazak]

Literally none of that is holding water.

[Bulbazak]

Except you just said you saw BTD flip town, knew he was telling the truth about being blocked, and then looked at who was being agreeable to you and might have done it. You're entire thesis is that you were looking for the town PR in the light, one you denied existed, and that was why you redirected me onto Rauth. All of this ignoring the fact that Rauth was not even in the light n1, something that was said repeatedly d2. If you were between Nos and Rauth, you'd logically would have gone after Nos instead.

[Bulbazak]

Am I ruining your intricate series of dominos, Math?

[Bulbazak]

I mean, based on what you just said, you should have been focused on Nos, not Rauth.

[Bulbazak]

i really really dislike the fact that bulba is thunderdoming this

Really? Math comes in with a guilty after questionable circumstances and then can't find the werewithal to stand by that result? And I'm just supposed to stand by with my hands in pockets and go "Well shucks. There's nothing I can do.". Screw that! This is an obvious scum ploy, and if scum Math doesn't want to commit to their action, then by golly I will put their feet to the fire myself. Math is scum via PoE based on n1 actions. Math is trying to set me up as scum by tying me to the Rauth kill, right after I was so conveniently moved to the light so they could "redirect" me. This is by definition between me and them. We are not pussy footing around this.

The First Mafia

A similar thing happened in this game. I don't go down gently to obvious fake claims. And I'm not going to listen to any scum or town chucklehead that tries to tell me to quiet down and let it happen.

I'm not by any means caught up. I'm like 20 pages behind again. But I

will

find out who did this amd I

will

make you pay!

I kinda
really need a votecount.

IT'S ON ITS WAY OKAY BUT I AM LIKE REALLY BEHIND HERE HOW THE FUCK DID YOU GUYS MAKE SO MUCH IN SO LITTLE TIME

Stuff happened.

[Bulbazak]

If I'm going, I'm going big with so much information on the table that you can't help but lynch the scum team. Let's start with this VC, because it's been bugging me since d1:

Eighteenth Votecount

:

Aronis - 5 (BTD6_maker, Vedith, Titus, Alisae, Aelita)

79 CE - 4 (SnarkySnowman, texcat, Frosted Kelvin Bran, Aronis)

SnarkySnowman - 2 (ThinkBig, Ginngie)
Vedith - 1 (Rautherdir)
Ginngie - 1 (79 CE)

Not Voting - 5 (QuantumRadius, Mathblade, dramonic, EddieFenix, Bulbazak)

Why aren't scum on Snarky? I've been bothered by this, and I don't have a clear answer. Snarky gives a townread on ThinkBig based on not a lot of information. It's a faux pas that scum should be eager to jump on, but nobody does. And it's not like no one noticed, because Snarky was ran up later based on the same reasoning. So why were scum uninterested here? What is it about the Aronis and CE wagons that are keeping them off of easy lynchbait?

Titus, I know you like to VCA. We can look at the other VCs later, but what's wrong with this picture? Are Aronis and CE two competing town wagons that scum don't want to distract from by hopping onto Snarky, or is one of those wagons scum, and the scum team doesn't want to risk a viable counterwagon?

[Bulbazak]

Also, why was Cirno moved to the Dark? I've figured out why everyone else was moved. The scum team's been very methodical and straightforward, and it's been increasingly obvious since Nos died. But I haven't figured out why they wanted to move Cirno. I think I might do an ISO dive later, but we need to really figure this out.

Also, look at any patterns of players repeatedly trying to tear down developing town blocs or players working separately to push a similar agenda. Scum want me dead today and have gone to great lengths to put these events into motion. Look for the ones pushing for that to happen without directly getting their hands dirty.

I also don't think they're hard bussing here. Given the amount of planning, they're definitely focusing on in game cooperation over distancing. So they'll be defending each other. If they are voting one of their team mates, they won't be pushing them that hard and the attempt will be weak. Look at how Math defended Nos d2 as an example of what we should be looking for.

[Bulbazak]

The conclusion based solely on this VC is that 79CE is likely town unless Aronis is also scum. Aronis is a decent flip at this point.

Is CE not town if Aronis is scum?

Vedith, Aronis, Dram might be where I want to go based on eyeballing early day 2 with my flu.

No. We're doing Math. I'm not having anyone distract from this.

[Bulbazak]

Titus, talk to me about the Cirno messages.

[Bulbazak]

Please do.

[Bulbazak]

Remote chance of both scum, based solely on that VC.

I find that the most unlikely. Scum would have been all over Snarky if that were the case. I'm thinking either both town, and scum didn't want to risk starting a third for fear of collapse, or one of those is scum, and the scum team didn't want to risk losing a viable counter wagon. I've just been trying to figure out which was more likely.

[Bulbazak]

I'm still not sure why Cirno was moved. I've looked over both ISOs, and the message doesn't tell me anything.

[Bulbazak]

It could just be Math trying to outplay roles again, but I'm not sure that's right. Cirno claimed that his role was useless, so why move him instead of anyone else that had a potentially better role? Did they think he was bluffing?

As for reads, I know he was mainly starting with town reads and working backwards. I can look back over those. I just doubt it's a moved based on reads if every other move was made with a specific purpose in mind. If they were afraid of his reads, they'd have just killed him.

[Bulbazak]

They could have moved Snarky to the dark. They didn't. They chose to kill him. Cirno was a non-presence. And he sent you a message. I doubt he would be a godfather as well.

[Bulbazak]

What do scum gain by moving Cirno specifically out of the light?

[Bulbazak]

What do scum gain by moving Cirno specifically out of the light?

moving kelvin/nos in, mostly

But why Cirno specifically? We now have enough information to know that every choice scum is making here is important.

[Bulbazak]

Titus, walk me through scum having a redirector over a strongman. So Math moves Gin to BTD. Kelvin/Nos roleblocks you. Where does Creature fit into this? I've only come up with one possible solution for what he could be and end up with a strongman result, but he'd still need to be targeting Snarky. Am I missing something?

[Bulbazak]

Titus, walk me through scum having a redirector over a strongman. So Math moves Gin to BTD. Kelvin/Nos roleblocks you. Where does Creature fit into this? I've only come up with one possible solution for what he could be and end up with a strongman result, but he'd still need to be targeting Snarky. Am I missing something?

Someone needs to watch a bass pro tournament.

If I wanted to fish for Creature's role, I'd be asking questions in the PT, not talking to Titus.

Who was actually townreading Nosferatu?

Math defended him d2.

Creature imo needs to claim why he thinks Strongman. That's where I am on night actions. If we could definitively prove n1, we can sort a lot.

I don't think he needs to claim at this time. I still have him as town. I think if he was scum, I would have been framed for a Gin kill, as there would be nothing to stop scum from going through. Scum targeting Rauth means that they were looking for something low key and guaranteed.

[Bulbazak]

And now you're only hope of actually stopping the scum kill is gonna die.

But you've claimed you can only target those in the light. How is that going to help stop the scum kill if most or all of them are in the dark?

If we lynch in the light, we can bring Titus back btw.

Then why are you voting Texcat, who's in the dark, and not Math?

[Bulbazak]

And if Gin is scum?

She's not. There's more than enough pointing to Gin town at this point.

If we could lock down strongman as existing, rather than a mistaken belief by Creature then that helps. It also stops Math's bus driver theory and brings them back which is good regardless of Math alignment.

That's why I'm walking through it. I'm trying to figure out what is most likely.

I'm not that sure Math is scum...

Why not?

[Bulbazak]

Titus, I don't want Creature to claim yet.

[Bulbazak]

Math (strongman): Kills Snarky. Ignores {Titus, Gin, Creature}. Kelvin/Nos block BTD. Scum switch Titus (BG) and Bulba to get Titus out of the light and to set up Bulba for the NK. Nos roleblocks Gin. Scum kills Rauth and hopes nothing unforeseen happens.
-Explains the n1 actions. Explains why scum killed Rauth. Does not explain why scum would block BTD. Scum take a risk on killing Rauth, meaning the kill/frame is not assured. It does explain why Rauth was targeted.-
I'm having a hard time believing Math's actual role is their fake claim as well. Strongman makes sense in that regard.

Math (redirector): Redirects Gin onto BTD. Kelvin/Nos blocks Titus. Kill is not prevented by Creature. Scum switch Titus (BG) and Bulba to get Titus out of the light and to set Bulba up for the NK. Nos roleblocks Gin. Math redirects Bulba onto Rauth. Scum kill Rauth guaranteed.
-N1 unexplained via Creature. Creature can't be scum, because Gin would have been the preferred target. So it doesn't explain Rauth. Does explain the scum gambit better, as the kill/frame would be assured.-
Creature throws a wrench in this entire theory. If he was some sort of protective, he'd have stopped the kill. If he got accurate results pointing to role, he wouldn't have said strongman. That would suggest accomplice. But if that was true, scum would have had no problems killing Gin n2 and wouldn't have shot off onto Rauth. I specifically told Creature to protect Gin, so if town, he's there. If Creature was a protective on Gin, or scum were unsure what he was, that makes a Gin kill unsure. Which points to Creature as town. So either we're missing an important piece of the puzzle here, or redirector is impossible.

[Bulbazak]

Sure, were scum!MathBlade and the strongman-or-whatever slot in big danger of both being caught?

I was universally townread til I started fighting strongman bullshit:

Sucks to be caught by PoE.

I GOT SCUM YOU FUCK

THEN VOTE THEM.

@Bulba, All of your setups are supposing scum Math.

Hmm... I wonder why that is. Maybe it's because I know for certain Math is scum! I'll entertain improbabilities, Titus, but not impossibilities.

If a Strongman is the source of the n1 kill, then we have guaranteed scum in Math, Creature, Quantum, Bulbazak.

I wasn't in the light n1. Ignoring other clears, you're right.

[Bulbazak]

Creature, you know for certain there is still scum in the light. Why are you not voting there?

[Bulbazak]

There's zero possibility here Creature. I am absolutely certain Math is scum. I'm certain enough to initiate a 1v1, and I don't do that lightly. The progression makes sense. Math's claims do not. They're scum. End of story. Stop play patty cake and vote.

[Bulbazak]

Gin, this is something that has to be taken care of. We have guaranteed scum right in front of us, and you lot want to go bug off and frolic in the lurkers. This is mind boggling to me, because I know you see it to, but you're not willing to put in the actual hard work and lynch the obvious scum that's sitting right in front of you.

1.) Math is scum based on mechanics. N1 is still not explained, and deep down, you know that Nos's boon likely doesn't cover what happened. The pool for the strongman has been narrowed down to one name: Math. Math tried to distract from the role specific hunting yesterday, and I called them out on it. It doesn't matter whether it was strongman or bus driver, Math did not want us looking too hard into the light. I pointed out that they had set BTD to be the day's lynch and that they were planning on steering the conversation away the following day. I told you it would happen. I can quote you where they railed against their own theory to keep us from continuing to look into the light after BTD flipped. Math knew that the circle would eventually close on them if we kept hunting, and now that it has, you guys are letting them get away.

2.) Math is scum based on the fake guilty. This is why I don't get the anger that I'm willing to 1v1 what I know is obviously false, because that was a clear scum claim. Don't ignore that it was incredibly convenient as well. Scum move me into the Light PT only for them to kill off onto a non-entity (Rauth) and for me to be so conveniently "redirected" to the kill? That has set up written all over it, and Math's claim should have been suspect immediately. Now there are numerous other flaws with the claim as well, and I'm going to go over them in the main thread, but don't you think it's convenient that Math gets what they claim to be a guilty, yet they are unwilling to stand behind it when pressure and attention is sent their way? In fact, Math was only too willing to jump on that out you gave them.

3.) There are clear holes in their motivation. You've already seen this. If you ignore #2, then pay attention to this. Math's reasons for targeting Rauth or unclear and doesn't make sense given their previous stances. They thought Nos was scum, but they ignored everything having to do with that flip. They thought I was a vig, yet they don't think too deeply on what that would mean for my alignment, or what one kill would mean if they were right (I'll go more into this later.). Their claimed actions make no sense coming from town. You and others have noticed clear dissonance between what Math claims to have happened and what they think. I'm dumbfounded that you've just let that drop.

4.) Math defended Nos and Dramonic. Now we can put a pin in Dramonic for now, because he hasn't flipped, but Math did hard defend Nos yesterday. I'm pretty sure the scum team are playing a cooperative game here. I'll quote the post in question in the main thread.

These are major issues, Gin. They point heavily to Math being scum. We essentially have everything except footage of them with the knife and a signed confession. The scum team is not trying to hide in the lurkers. They're trying to keep town from gelling together and settling down. The time for kneejerk reactions are over. Trust me, like you have at other points in the game. You trusted me that BTD was town. You trusted me to wait until close to deadline to throw the scum team off. Trust me on the town bloc. Trust me that Titus is town. I know that she can annoy you. I get that. But trust me on this. Trust me on Math as well. We either succeed or fail today, and if we do what we did d2 and go after the easy policy lynch, we will fail in the long run. You successfully guided the shot onto Nos. Help me lynch his partner and clear this PT of scum. It's going to be hard. We're going to be fought every step of the way. But I believe we can cripple the scum team today and begin the process of finding the remaining 2. Math is trying to say that they can help protect us if we don't lynch them. That's an appeal to emotion, and untrue based on their own claims. The remaining scum being in the dark would mean that Math would be powerless to use their ability, and they could only hinder the rest of us. Math's only concern is to survive. I only want to ensure that we lynch the last 3 scum, and I will dump all the information I can, and I will theorize and talk things out as much as I can, to make sure that happens. Don't get cold feet when you're needed most. Help me here.

Going to catch up on what happened here. I will be expanding on some of these points. I don't want a repeat of yesterday.

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, perhaps maybe clarifying how the guilty is rock solid is a good idea.

I posted the crux earlier, but I'm going to be going over some more specifics later. It's dumbfounding me that anyone is townreading Math. I haven't been this frustrated with town derping past confirmed town since I caught scum claiming a bastard role in a normal game.

We will get nothing done if we sit around for 20+ days refusing to vote people.

That shouldn't be the case. We literally have scum in the bag, and you were voting them, and then you and Gin decided it would be too hard to actually think critically and you went after the shiny baubles instead.

We're killing texcat today.

No we're not. We can use our roles to narrow down if Texcat is scum or not, but we're not going after policy lynches again today. That time is over.

Not Titus.

Agreed.

Not Bulba or Math because that can wait a day.

No. This gets settled today. One of us is scum, and you know deep down which one it is.

The OMGUS factor just tipped me off the fence.

wait...

what?

Math has scum read you since day one and even brought up the idea of wagoning you earlier today

I think she meant she's OMGUSing. Although it should be pointed out that Math's vote was scummy as crap. You offered them an out, and they took it. That is not what they would do if they were town and felt that they really caught scum with their role. At the very least, they'd be looking more into that, but Math has shown no concern with actually figuring out what took place, and they've shown even less for actually standing by their guilty.

Alisae, I don't feel the best about this wagon but we may get something by comparing Math wagon to earlier days.

Check out this theory.

Town gets wagoned, no counters or any discussion besides that player.

Brings up counter wagon onto scum, scum attack the old town wagon with force.

Nos didn't vote BTD until she became a wagon herself.

It's almost literally a mirror match up actually

First, not every scum react to wagons in the exact same way. Second, you need to go back and look at what happened d2. There are some very specific things regarding Nos that you are forgetting.

Texcat never voted anyone, Math was main wagon no argument.
Nos never voted anyone, BTD was main wagon no argument.

BTD voted Nos, the first counter and a scum wagon.
Math voted Rex, the first counter and

could

be a scum wagon.


Nos voted BTD right after after she became an actual wagon.
Texcat voted Math right after she became an actual wagon.


The only element missing is texcat being town or scum because that requires a flip but it's literally the same play

You are forgetting context. Regardless of Nos being scum, she was still catching up. It paints a lot of her actions d2. The problem was not that she was catching up, it was that her reads were fake by virtue of her being scum. If she would have continued that d3, you'd have a point, but comparing the actions of a player who was scum but not all there to a player who is actually current is problematic. You need to look at why Nos did what she did, and then you need to look at why Texcat is doing what she does and see if that makes sense from a town or scum perspective, especially given the rest of Texcat's play.

[Bulbazak]

1) There is a way to find out what Nos' boon was, and it has to do with night actions. Nos could have been your strongman and your whole arguement is based on the fact that Nos wasn't the strongman.

Nos was a roleblocker. Do you really think Mastin is doubling scum up on PRs? Simplest explanation is that there was another scum PR in the light on n1. You start there and then reevaluate as more evidence comes up. No further evidence has come up to dispute that, and Math is the last one left in the pool.

2) Scum could have just killed Rauth and Math could have just misinterpreted their result.

There's more to that, but I kept it short. There's major dissonance in Math's thought process, and I'm going to go over it in a little bit.

4) But is it scum defending a scumbuddy or town just being bad and townreading scum which DOES infact happen.

Except they then tried to say they did a complete 180 on Nos during the night and suspected her as scum. That comes out of nowhere, just like the Rauth read comes out of nowhere. I'll be quoting their defense of Nos in a bit, and you can see for yourself.

P-edit: And there's her buddy coming to the rescue. Right on time.

[Bulbazak]

Gin, you're thinking about how scum fencesit completely wrong. Scum don't just say they have no opinion. They give an opinion, but still leave the other option open, all the while refusing to actually vote either. Texcat has admitted that she doesn't know what to think. Being clueless is not scummy. If you want a real example of fencesitting in this game, here it is:

in other news, I'm still against lynching mathblade

mathblade's an awesome person so i kinda don't want too, but if you get another vote i may not be able to resist the temptation to hammer tbh

i can tell you I would hammer bulba though w/o a second thought, so run him up instead of mathblade plz

Aronis comes with a strong chance of wanting to lynch me and not lynch Math, all while leaving it open to hammer either. He then refuses to vote either person, even though he's given a stance.

[Bulbazak]

tbh
I'm actually considering listening to Dramonic.
Dramonic where am I voting.

@Vedith: If you think Math is town, vote them with me.

[Bulbazak]

EBWOP: If you think Math is scum.

[Bulbazak]

I am voting Math. Math is conf. scum to me. As for voting you into light, I want to get Titus in there first, that way the entire town bloc is in one place and can coordinate night actions. After that, we'll see. I may be open to it.

[Bulbazak]

What's Math at?

I believe they're at 4. I think I can get Ginngie and A2 back onboard. That'd make 6. Final vote will either be Creature or Aronis if he decides to hammer.

[Bulbazak]

Wait. Add you, that'd be 5. That would make it easier to get the last 2.

[Bulbazak]

VOTE: BTD6

Not feeling the Nos wagon after Bulba and Ginngie went another three pages spamming the thread.

It feels like I can choose between someone who isn't gonna play or someone who spamposts and people are defending the no poster now with a flash wagon. BTD6 feels right.

Gotta go to work.

The Nos wagon has literally nothing to do with with Bulba and I?


Also, why do you town read Nos?

@Math

I don't townread Nos. I don't scumread Nos either. Nos is just inactive.

Yes it does. You've threatened a wagon on a ton of other people yet are not willing to vote someone who hasn't posted in a long ass time. Threaten wagons on me and now Nos.

Don't tell me this has nothing to do with Bulba when you and Bulba push me then hop on a Nos wagon.

Really gotta go.

The Nos wagon has literally nothing to do with with Bulba and I?


Also, why do you town read Nos?

@Math

I don't townread Nos. I don't scumread Nos either. Nos is just inactive.

Yes it does. You've threatened a wagon on a ton of other people yet are not willing to vote someone who hasn't posted in a long ass time. Threaten wagons on me and now Nos.

Don't tell me this has nothing to do with Bulba when you and Bulba push me then

YOU

hop on a Nos wagon.

Really gotta go.

Bulba is on BTD...:/

Forgot the word you *facepalm* I am typing in a hurry. Bold emphasis edit by way of post.

Gut says Bulba will hop onto Nos next time Bulba is online

These are Math's last 3 posts of d2, btw. It's an attack on the Nos wagon and pushing Nos's counter. Math didn't post in the PT after this, and suddenly they go from having no reads on Nos to scumreading them? Yeah right. And that scum read only comes out after Nos had been shot by A2.

[Bulbazak]

CE

is

voting Math.

[Bulbazak]

Math wagon is currently {Bulbazak, Titus, 79CE, Texcat, Vedith, A2}. That's 6. All we need is Gin to trust me and finish this out.

[Bulbazak]

I'll prep my hallelujah gifs. Until then, more ISO hunting.

P-edit: Yeah, A2 has control of the PT tonight if I'm wrong here. I don't think I am, though. I think I almost have this thing solved.

[Bulbazak]

So if that is the case and we do have a bus driver, then the following cannot be the Bus Driver:
Everyone in the dark right now
Myself (Because I was in the dark at the time night actions were made)
Ginngie (Because claimed jailkeeper, which makes sense because)
BTD6 (who was blocked because he was targeted by a jailkeeper.)

Those who could be the Bus Driver:
Mathblade (Who has been playing in a way I have come to consider town)
Titus (Who claimed protective)
Creature (Claimed 'something that would have effected Snarky's death')
QuantumRadius (Claimed had an action go through.)
Narna

.....

This is horrible for two reasons:

One of which is any scum has a power and something else while in light.
So Jailkeeper + Bus driver
BTD6 Tracker + Bus Driver

The other people don't see the point of listening to me so whatever. Very limited lunch break.

I believe this is what I saw d2. I remember mentioning it, and I knew none of the major players mentioned the bus driver seriously. That made the hunt easier. Rauth looks at the game from a bus driver perspective and tries to hunt in a similar fashion. Math attacks the method of hunting and enlarges the pool to include everyone n1. This ignores what would have likely happened, and Math had previously shown indications that they were not interested in hunting for scum in the light specifically.

[Bulbazak]

I also think Dramonic makes a lot of sense.

For scum? Yeah, I agree.

[Bulbazak]

I promised more explanation on why Math's thought process doesn't make sense. Let's assume, just for the point of this exercise, that Math is a town redirector. Okay, so I'm moved over into the light. They think I'm a vig. That should make them think I'm town. Mastin's not going to give scum a secondary killing role, and I believe Math would know this. So right away, they should be approaching me from a town perspective, which we don't see in any way in how they claimed. Next they redirect me at Rauth, thinking that I was going to kill them. First, why do they think I'd kill them as a vig? Yeah I expressed a scumread on them, but I had also expressed a lot of frustration with the likes of CE and A2 that day, that it would also be conceivable that I'd shoot there or in the policy pile to lessen the noise. Second, why Rauth? Math claims it's because they suspected him after he buddied them, but that still doesn't make sense to me, as I don't remember Rauth doing anything of the sort.

But okay, let's just assume that Math really believed this. So the new day dawns, and there's only one kill. So Math says they assume that I performed the kill and am scum. But wait, Math also said they suspected Nos. And Gin confirmed right before deadline that she JK Nos. So logically, shouldn't Math just think Nos was going to perform the kill and was just blocked. Not to mention that by the time Math claimed their supposed guilty result, Nos had just been shot by A2 and flipped scum. That would explain their result a lot better than "Bulba did it!". And speaking of which, Math was still coming from the position of me being a vig at the time, so wouldn't that mean that there's still a kill missing? Do they really think that I was scum with a secondary killing ability and the scum team had me perform

both

kills? If anything, that doesn't point to me being scum at all. That just points to Math's original theory being confirmed. If they did think I was scum who performed the kill, then they couldn't also think I was vig. In essence, there was no reason given what Math claimed to think and do, along with the claimed actions and events in the thread, to think that I was scum who performed the kill.

What does this mean? It means that Math came into the day with a preset narrative in mind to tell and pursue, one that did not change as new wrinkles and evidence were introduced that would have made a town player reconsider their assumptions. They had an agenda, not a result. That is not indicative of a town mindset, but a scum one.

[Bulbazak]

[Bulbazak]

Fyi the post that Bulba claimed made Titus all but conf!town was a two-line post that came out of nowhere, was completely flat tonally, had no nuance and was not followed up at all.

Gin said she had information that pointed to scum being in the PT. She never said what that information was. Titus then says there's a strongman. There's no way she could have known that Ginngie was also a protective role. That's a town claim.

That's me remembering that Bulba v Math could be an SvS btw.

Guys, I have a guilty.

Vote TheWayItEnds

Creature is also probably scum for not protecting Gin. However, TWIE used an action last night from the dark PT, so they were the ones who performed the kill.

[Bulbazak]

Aronis, for once in this game, stop being useless and actually vote scum.

[Bulbazak]

I actually started getting paranoid of you, but all evidence is saying that you're not scum here and that I was right originally.

[Bulbazak]

Was it a question in here or in the PT?

[Bulbazak]

Was it to me, or are you talking about the mod question that will be answered regardless?

[Bulbazak]

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, why did you check TWIE?

I was asked to, so I did. I also was trying to figure out why Cirno was moved, so I didn't think it'd hurt. All of this is in the Light PT. We coordinated our actions there.

[Bulbazak]

I would like to hold off on any more votes until I get a response from Mastin. I'm checking on an unlikely possibility, but I want to make sure I have all my bases covered. TWIE is at L-2, I believe.

[Bulbazak]

I want to know how TWIE's ability works now.

[Bulbazak]

@Titus: Have you received any more messages since d1?

[Bulbazak]

Okay, I'm good to go. I still wouldn't mind hearing from TWIE about their role, but given the answers I've gotten from the mod and from Titus, I don't think that's necessary. You guys can finish the lynch whenever you want.

[Bulbazak]

Creature, you didn't protect Gin.

[Bulbazak]

That's the weakest guilty rebuttal I've seen in a long time.

[Bulbazak]

Creature, why aren't you voting my guilty? You know what my role is. You know what it means.

[Bulbazak]

who suggested checking me?

Ginngie

i did not take an action.

which is why i called it false.

but then again the other half of my post certainly is applying.

I never said what my role was in the main thread or what my guilty meant. So how could you know that my guilty would be false because of you not taking an action?

[Bulbazak]

Forgot about that.

Continue with your weak defense then.

[Bulbazak]

Can we just finish this? TWIE isn't even trying to fight.

[Bulbazak]

Creature, you're saying that scum had to stop you from protecting Gin last night. However, we've already had a redirector and roleblocker flip, so it's not that. And the kill came from the dark per my investigation, so it's not a strongman. And I wasn't even in the light n1, so I'm not a strongman lying to you. So in that case, what else explains what happened last night?

[Bulbazak]

Also, keep ignoring half the scum team dying yesterday. That's just hilarious with you telling us how bad we are.

[Bulbazak]

Quantum, I got a guilty last night. How are you even thinking about a strongman when I have a proven result?

[Bulbazak]

TWIE flipping scum means no such thing.

[Bulbazak]

But say that there's something still in the light from n1. That's {Titus, Creature, Quantum}. Titus was switched n2 due to the BG role. Quantum was responsible for bringing A2 over and told us that was important to do. That leaves you. Nothing else accounts for that.

[Bulbazak]

But now that raises the question: Why didn't the scum team kill Ginngie n2?

[Bulbazak]

The person who is your strongman is Creature
The other scumfuck is Bulba who faked a guilty.

How in the world are you getting strongman? That makes zero sense now with everything we know about n1 and n3. Well, you're not believing what happened n3, but there's definitely a manipulative role, hence why I asked Quantum to investigate Titus. I can see Creature-scum knowing that Gin was unprotected n3 and shooting there, but not shooting Gin n2 is a big hangup. If Creature is not a protective role, then scum had easy access to Gin n2, but they chose not to shoot there. Why? I don't want to ignore this, because the last time something didn't quite add up and I ignored it, we assumed a Light townblock, set up and claimed all the actions ahead of time, and d4 happened. The only solace here is that Creature did not immediately vote the only person who should be scum to him, so that makes Creature-scum a little more likely. I just don't understand why scum would choose to kill Creature's biggest supporter if Creature was scum.

Vedith also didn't react negatively to the revelation that Quantum got a result of Follower on him, so we know that the possibility is not BS. Lynching Creature would be able to allow us to confirm Quantum once and for all. So consider my vote there. I just want to talk to Titus real quick before the day ends.

@Titus: Maybe you can see what I'm missing. 1.) Math was probably telling the truth about their actions, so they would have redirected Snarky to BTD. I don't believe scum would RB BTD, so that means Gin was sent there. Nos would more than likely RB you, because I think Math thinks very highly of their ability to see crumbs, and I think you would have been a high priority target (see the initial move to keep you from protecting). That leaves an ability unaccounted for. Do you think Math tells the truth about what it is? If so, why would Math follow through with their targeting? If not, what misdirectional ability could Creature have that wouldn't interfere with Math's redirect? 2.) If Creature is scum, why doesn't he kill Gin on n2? There would have been no protectives in the PT, and I'm pretty sure Math would know that. Why shoot off then? Couldn't they have achieved the same thing by just killing Gin and framing me for it? 3.) Why kill 79CE? Nancy was Creature's biggest defender. Why would scum kill them? All that would do is ensure the Creature lynch happens.

That VC is also still bugging me, but we can talk more about that later. I'd really like to connect, because I really think we're close here.

[Bulbazak]

Except we know exactly where the redirect went n2! There was a whole freaking day about it! Gin would have been a wild card in that situation. You're essentially saying that after 2 successful days, and the execution of one of their members, a scum team with me and Math would look at each other and exclaim, "Hey! Let's commit collective suicide!". Stop cherry picking facts because you don't like the implications. Math tried to fake a guilty on me and was caught. Fact! They tried to back away when the heat built up and when other town member gave them the opportunity. Fact! I had to force the town to actually lynch scum. Fact! You have a whole day phase that should be slapping that Bulba-scum notion out of your head repeatedly. You have actions that don't make sense from Bulba-scum. Stop sticking your fingers in your ears and actually pay attention to what's happening.

[Bulbazak]

Fact: Math was going down even without the guilty, the guilty was a last minute desperation play to attempt to buy them another day. If they claim it on a scumbuddy they get towncred for it. And tbh, yes, Math would have to bus to get themself out of that situation. You act like they had the illusion of free choice, they didn't. Because at the end of the day they were the lynch no matter what there.

No they weren't. There was absolutely zero pressure on Math prior to that fake guilty. Math could have easily ridden out the day if they didn't say a thing. All of the pressure on them that day was due to the inconsistencies in their claimed play. If Math didn't say anything, you would have happily been trying to lynch Texcat or one of the other policy lynches.

Fact: Yeah that was kinda opportunistic of them tbh.

You're halfway there. Now think about what that means.

Fact: You bussed good job.

Except again, you're missing the point that it would have been an entirely unnecessary bus. I could have easily accepted Gin's terms of truce and lynched elsewhere. I didn't. You're missing why Math did what they did and just trying to associate it with "Herr dee durr, scum so stupid.". Except scum haven't been stupid. Not at all.

Fact: But then scum!Bulba faked a guilty.

That's an assumption based on what you want to be true. Again, what do I gain as scum by faking a guilty at that point? It would have been more beneficial to give a "They went nowhere." result, especially since I told Gin that negative results didn't mean as much with 2 scum still alive. It just meant they couldn't be on a team together. If you're scum faking an investigative, you don't blow your load right away. You wait for the opportune moment, and that wasn't it.

Look at what scum tried to accomplish d3, and then look at what happened the following night and day. Look at the big picture here. There's a reason I was paranoid of Titus last night. There was a reason I asked Quantum to look into her. And there was a reason I was acting so triumphant after Math flipped. Put the actual pieces together here.

[Bulbazak]

Why didn't you take me into Light as promised?

I am voting Math. Math is conf. scum to me. As for voting you into light, I want to get Titus in there first, that way the entire town bloc is in one place and can coordinate night actions. After that, we'll see. I may be open to it.

I told you I was going to vote Titus in first. Titus was strong town to me, and I wanted a protective more than an unknown. I did ask Quantum to look into your role, though. I would like the Light PT to vote you in after today is over. So consider that me upholding our agreement.

[Bulbazak]

I'm waiting for Titus, A2, then I'll vote Creature. I'm getting enough to quell any paranoia. I just want some answers, is all.

[Bulbazak]

There are a couple of other things that came about due to my paranoia last night as well. I really thought Titus was probably busdriver, and I desperately wanted to apologize to Quantum, because while I felt my request was necessary, I also felt I was sending him to his doom. There was no way I could see scum-Titus letting him live if he was going to get results that would damn her. I kept quiet, because I hoped that it wouldn't occur to the scum team, whereas my saying something would almost certainly ensure his death. I also realized that with a Titus busdriver, I couldn't really trust any results I'd get. However, if I could flip the script, I might make them a little more reliable. So, even though I said early on I'd be on Creature, I actually investigated Aronis to lessen the chance Titus could mess with my result. He went nowhere, btw.

[Bulbazak]

I think you should bring Vedith to the light. A Follower could be huge, and it quells any remaining paranoia about Quantum.