Mini Theme 2161: Undertale C Open - Chara's Folly

[Prism]

and you would think from how we treat each other that me/catboi live just to tear down the other for daring to have a correct read, but somehow we've been very good friends for just over 10 years now

[Prism]

"Man, look at this. You're right that I'm town catboi, but it's entirely for the wrong reasons. Sad. My reasons for townreading you are spot on, though, dunno why you won't admit it."

cue Benny Hill theme as slapfight ensues

[Prism]

That's a large part of why all 3 of the lurksquad are at the top of my scumpool. There's a chance that Pooky decided to go for the towncred instead of trying to swap it, and a chance that Tanner+one other person meant they couldn't really get the votes for something else.

Chances are though...one or two of the lurker slots are scum and the deepwolf isn't that deep.

[Prism]

Buddying catboi in the wake of their strong performance in SIN is also a very valid strategy here as scum. I should probably check into redtea's scumgames.

I checked around in Sujimichi's meta, too, and found that they like to give questions

as

they catchup as town, rather than at the end, and have low confidence in their scumgame+instantly flaked from their last. I'm not sure how much that means given the timing of their replacein today, sadly, but it does bother me.

[Prism]

604 is just bizarre, along with that whole exchange, because they gave coherent reasons for catboi waaaaaaaay back. It wasn't exactly hard to come up with something.

[Prism]

I don't know how to feel about the appeal to the safety of the masses part for defending catboi. I would have liked something like "

I

suspected you too."

[Prism]

And I mean, feel free to put me to work here too. This isn't a one way street.

[Prism]

I'll comb back over 610 and give my perspective on it. First, to answer the start, rereading the thread I actively hated all of the early spare pushes and was like "Okay this dude really is Chara, why on earth did I swing to townreading him? He's only kicking into gear when it's clear he might actually have to do something". I also liked the catboi engagement less on reread, where I was digging more into faith and a little less into his game explanation/the strategic comment I found there.

Chara generally just has to not get eliminated Day 1, which is pretty easy and the bar is on the floor. If a scum fight happens, or someone actively starts pushing them a la catboi, they

really

have to kick into gear and not blow the only job they have.

[Prism]

I'll look over Tanner/redtea specifically to see the interactions after I go back over 610 but I wouldn't be surprised by most combos of the 5 I listed. Maybe like, Tanner/Lavender or redtea/Pooky.

[Prism]

This is going to be really hard to sort without quotewalling, I'll tackle it in forms of catboi post numbers quoted+responded to by Pooky in 610.

So for the start, I don't think it's really scummy but to pose a counterpoint to you saying it's town...claiming to be acting in good faith, and extending open invitations of goodwill in the form of questions, is pretty standard scumplay. I don't really see "Question me if you think I'm being dishonest!" as evidence they're being honest.

The entire post is very "none of this is from a town perspective from the get go". For 370, I don't think "But why would scum oppose town strategically like that? Catboi thinking I'm scummy for it is weak and he isn't asking me questions about it" is really persuasive. Pooky had been talking plenty about why he felt spares were correct-what everyone in the game was interested in and pressing him for was

reads

. His attack on 430 from catboi centers on catboi correctly pointing out that Pooky resisted persistent pressure from multiple people, primarily me, to discuss players/reads. The focus on "Why doesn't he question me more on my spare strategy?" is again missing the point, and pushing someone for interactions with others that they don't like is perfectly valid as town.

Pooky's highlighting of 451 I brought up previously, but when Pooky wants to talk mechanics/strategy, it's totally fine to pose an entirely new question in response like this, especially mechanically. The natural response to asserting that you don't have to worry about fighting Hectic in a spare scenario is "Why don't we have to worry about sparing Hectic scum, though?". Pooky explains why he's not worried here, but calling this shifting the goalposts and that it doesn't come from a town perspective is a stretch. Bonus that this is directly engaging with Pooky's discussion of strategy: catboi sees Pooky believes something, questions it, gets a response, and asks a followup.

I've always thought Pooky's reaction to 452 was tinfoil. Catboi has made clear what bothers him about Pooky and why in multiple posts at this point. Exclaiming that Catboi didn't explain that CATBOI believed him to be scum in the same post (which catboi did, by saying he agreed with voting Pooky, and he clearly gave his reasoning in previous posts) is really going fishing here. 468, about Coalition, I agree catboi should have elaborated. But assuming he didn't because he's scum is working backwards. I glanced over the game on reread and came away saying "Yeah, catboi is kind of right, tonally this looks similar"

The reaction to 571 is a bit overblown. As town this is coming from someone who doesn't realize exactly how frustrating it was to have him stonewall us on the content front for eons. If you're not going to give reads after multiple players request you too, then yeah, you're going to earn shit for it and you're going to get votes for it until you actually engage with us. If catboi's best guess based on the spare push is that you're scum,

and you adamantly refuse to give us anything else

, then what do you expect him to do?

I don't really see it as implausible that he reacted very harshly in adjustment to his initial strategy not working out. I've obviously spent a lot of this post playing the part of catboi's guardian angel, giving him the benefit of the doubt and his intentions so crystal clear and good, but I really don't think much if any was given at all in that post. Whether that initial strategy is likely or not is an open question.

[Prism]

pretty sure it's better for scum if chara gets elim'd than a mafia on D1 ?

My instinct is that it's better for mafia to get eliminated over Chara. Two mafia have to get voted at any point in the game. Chara leaves the game optimally for the role after one misfight. One scum has to never get fought, one has to only dodge it for a day vs. both have to dodge it every day. I don't really feel like punching the numbers though.

[Prism]

Re: Chara there's a lot of engagement between Tanner/redtea, I don't feel like grabbing post numbers but I'd consider just Ctrl+F searching their names in each. Tanner also immediately brought up a problem with redtea at the start of the day. Unlikely team imo.

[Prism]

That's probably going to wrap it up from me for the night. I'll try to be in tomorrow, but I'm happy with what I've done for the day.

And maybe with a bit more time I can actually lock Pooky/Tanner as town

[Prism]

8/10*6/7*4/5*1/2=27.4% scum win (Mafia voted Day 1)
7/9*5/7*3/5=33.33% scum win (Chara voted Day 1)

It is indeed better to hit mafia Day 1. Wack.

[Prism]

To hit Chara, sorry

[Prism]

You asking about the scum perspective but me using "hitting" like from a town perspective has me all twisted but you get the point

Night bear, night Chara

[Prism]

I'm too tired to really do much atm but I'll try and tackle your ISO today Tanner and see if there's anything that sticks out.

I'm also kind of on board with Hectic here in that part of me wants to AFK until we get a replacement...but even then I doubt they're going to talk their way out of it. Every single other slot has a better Day 1 case except maybe Lavender.

[Prism]

today/tomorrow* kind of a coinflip if I get the energy to play tonight but I will see

[Prism]

Considering my two biggest townreads+Hectic who is also likely town sat on this for what feels like forever at this point, with no other votes until just now by Tayl0r, this really does have a solid chance.

[Prism]

I think that's L-2. Chara should instahammer unless they're already on the wagon/it's scum. Maybe I should just put this slot out of its misery.

[Prism]

Realizing that Tayl0r probably isn't scum with Sujimichi/redtea (vote+426) has me going down the rabbit hole of crackpot theories.

Tayl0r/Chara makes sense searching their respective names in the ISO. I don't like it.

[Prism]

It's the confidence of Elements in 410. I don't like it.

Tayl0r/Sujimichi made sense for awhile. I was willing to vote this for awhile. But now this feels wrong. Me, Lavender, and Tanner are the only plausible partners left for them.

...I'll circle back after looking at Tanner.

[Prism]

I think the worst part is that me going to bat this hard for the Sujimichi slot means we might just have to flip it regardless.

I feel really comfortable with Hectic atm, and have just kind of slotted Puppy as town for the Elements interactions. It didn't read SvS to me.

765, giving the slot a chance w/ a new player, is the only problem, and they joined me on Hectic. This is really consistent with 692, and they jump back to beeboy eventually.

[Prism]

I missed this from Hectic for why Pooky is town. It's good.

[Prism]

Chara, you around tonight by chance? I have questions.

[Prism]

497 from Tayl0r still exists. Hm.

[Prism]

This makes so much sense if Tayl0r is the Chara. Their entire push on Chara doesn't seem like they actually read the slot at all. Tayl0r says Puppy is their top SR, then never really pushes it while they flop over to catboi and then Chara. They're too sure that me/catboi are town. I don't like this.

Chara's side of the interactions are pretty decent, but then there's 882. Tayl0r suddenly being the closest thing to a scumread is extremely out of left field. I don't like the justification for Tayl0r +town they give in 1017

The only question here is: Why not push Lavender?

Hm.

[Prism]

803 and 817 does give some background to the Taylor "closest thing to a scumread" line. I didn't find this that implausible to fake at first glance but it does provide background. But there's still their pings on Puppy, the pings on Elements very early, and they've already started taking a look at redtea.

948 explains that they're mostly reverting to the Elements read/not seeing anything town from beeboy as reasons for the vote....but the vote in 906 was very presence/content-oriented.

Hm. Hm. Hm. Need to review 120s and 160.

[Prism]

you seem like a fun person to grab a drink with

I'm a born obsessive, and I'm not sorry lmao

[Prism]

Am I crazy, Pooky? Am I working backwards here?

[Prism]

Isis laughs at me anyway, it's okay

[Prism]

Seriously though, am I crazy? Ctrl+F "Taylor" in Chara's ISO and "Chara" in Taylor's.

[Prism]

Tayl0r's progressions have also just made like, no sense in general. I had her as probably scum with Sujimichi by default. The vote+response to redtea made me really doubt that.

but I cannot put into words how viscerally I hate Elements 410. The confidence in which they shoot down this read, embodied by the strong language "autological" and the hagfish knot simile, feels all kinds of wrong to me.

[Prism]

Sure, Elements 410 is responding to these two posts by Hectic. Hectic townreads Chara for the post Elements quoted, Elements singles out this read specifically to shoot down with unique confidence/vigor.

Calling it autological was a bit confusing to me and is a bit ambiguous. It could mean Chara was describing themselves, or that Chara's post is describing itself. The distinction doesn't really matter imo. The "hagfish tying into a knot" just means that Chara is tying themselves into the multi-layered WIFOM game, in much the same way as the clip you've probably seen a hundred times.

It's the strength/vigor with which he shoots Hectic down here that bothers me.

[Prism]

Reading beeboy's posts on Tayl0r I'm not so sure anymore. I would have to compare it against his prior SvS pushes, but the stakes are fairly high here.

There's more than one way to test this theory. Voting Tayl0r would be one way, but flipping Sujimichi and seeing who the Chara is is another.

I've put off reading Tanner tonight long enough.

[Prism]

Okay, Tanner's progressions in general-on Lavender, on Hectic, and on Puppy-are all pretty solid. They're lacking interactions with Elements past their initial vote but that's about it. Maybe worth expounding on that initial vote but it looks like they're following Chara for a bit and seeing what happens?

The only read of theirs that is worth more of an explanation to me is the progression from 892 to 898 on Elements.

Tanner-When you said the takeaway from the catchup was you were fine with Elements, can you talk what made you feel this way?

I really see like...no issues with this slot. If I squint hard they're faking uncertainty about Hectic in 347 and are doing a weird "OMGUS to get townread strategy today.

Scum with Tayl0r makes a bit of sense but for some reason I doubt it? Scum with Sujimichi is hypothetically possible? Interactions aren't clearing but seem less likely to me. I'm not really convinced Sujimichi is individually scum anymore to start, and I don't scumread Tanner at all.

[Prism]

I'll look again at Puppy for you, give me a second. I did this earlier tonight but I think it's clear how much I've been jumping around RIP.

[Prism]

I'm not really familiar with Puppy's meta but the sparing reasoning seems plausible to me as town. I really don't think there's any incentive to push it, period, really unless you're going for a Day 2 Chara spare win. That's really putting all of your eggs into one basket on something you know isn't likely to work. Previous spare discussions had gotten some scumreads and some townreads but really isn't going to help Puppy in the longrun. The wincon for scum here is pretty clearly the fact that they need 3 misfights and Puppy...really isn't searching for them. 692 is a really great post in hindsight, though.

I also just like, find two deepwolfs here so unlikely to begin with. Even if Puppy gets his two spares, unless Puppy is scum with one of Chara/Hectic/MT as Chara, all of which seem really unlikely, this isn't going to help his situation out at all.

I think the issues that stick out to me would be that I was too generous in my initial readthrough around the final vote, 900 actively hunts for who catboi wants to flip...but I still don't really see them as likely at this point.

[Prism]

If Lavender flips Chara tonight by the way I'm buying a bottle of wine and posting as I finish it Day 3.

[Prism]

Oh my god the fact that I can't just get more from the Sujimichi slot is driving my insane, trust me

I appreciate it. I'm really obsessive, and really,

really

hate losing. Even if the odds are in our favor, I don't want to get complacent, misfight, and then eat a nightkill that leaves me unable to affect the game further.

[Prism]

Also, to be blunt, right now I have nothing better to do so I might as well.

Pandemic szn.

[Prism]

I dunno. I think we're basically on the same page right now, it seems like you're more inclined to view Puppy's spare as scummy and to think there's one or two deepwolves. I've come around to the one theory more, obviously. Is there anybody/anything else you want me to look at? I'm pretty close to retiring for the night but I think I have a little of gas still in the tank.

Somewhere, in what I really hope is an alternate universe and not this one, Tayl0r is stuck in a team with Sujimichi/redtea slot. She just wants this game to end already, but then I have to pull out the tinfoil conspiracy theories to drag it out or even snatch defeat from the jaws of victory

[Prism]

I think 1394 makes sense by the way, thank you.

Like I think it's pretty impossible to locktown him without more flips? but I really see no problems with the Tanner slot other than being cautious around Elements and now Puppy? The latter is a bit worse than the former but I think both of those are pretty fine?

[Prism]

It looks like you have a strong Chara townread if you want to talk more with me about that.

They literally went from my strongest TR to my pet scumread in like 30 minutes lmao

[Prism]

The candidates there imo are 1. Lavender 2. Pooky 3. Tanner 4. Taylor and I guess Puppy?

If it's Lavender, god help us all. Pooky is probably next around for me to cycle through but I find it pretty unlikely he's scum. The only reason he's here period is that he's not voting the slot. Everything past the catboi spat is totally fine. Why is he not being more assertive here? Letting me ruin the game is a viable strategy but he's really taking a backseat and letting autowin happen instead of like, picking a fight with me or pushing someone else. Tanner I just reviewed and is hypothetically possible but unlikely. If it's Taylor they've just given up and want the game to end. Puppy should also be pushing a different vote here instead of pushing the spare stuff.

Lavender, and to a lesser extent Taylor, are plausible to me but I really don't feel great about this anymore. Taylor is a better vote imo, but the problem with that is a Taylor townfight into a Suji Chara flip means I 100% need to be fought Day 3/4. I would rather burn one mislynch on Suji, watching Tayl0r flip Chara overnight, than watch myself singlehandedly torpedo this game into a loss.

[Prism]

I mean if we lost after I crusade to flip the vote off of Suji that would 100% be on me lmao

I am lliterally the only person here actively trying to avoid scum autoloss w/ Suji slot. Pooky could be letting me handle his work for him but that's it. Something is wrong with this picture to me

[Prism]

i don't think i have too much depth to it? i liked their posting, i feel fine about the ways we've interacted, their interactions with ele don't ring s/s to me - the second paragraph in 1370 simply doesn't seem like a contradiction that's supposed to be +scum, and i also don't really see s/s behind elements being Certain in shutting down hectic's chara townread.

however, what *does* kinda concern me is their progression on me during early day two, so i'm kinda hoping to talk about it with them. unless they already responded and i missed it.

In general I've liked the interactions a lot, and a lot of the progressions have made sense to me at a glance, but I've given their reasoning a free pass. I want to question them about those more real-time, though.

For the 948/902 vote stuff I really don't think there's much evidence there, it was me kind of note-taking as I went and finding a progression that seemed to be slightly questionable. There are several things I want to take a much, much closer look at than I have for any other slot.

[Prism]

Interactions here refers to with me personally/with others on trying to form reads, but I do have some I really want to dive further into when Chara gets here.

Their interactions with Ele I found strong on my readthrough but am less convinced now. It's definitely within range and talking mech with Ele early is pretty free. The scumpings early/the way they revoted beeboy are bold...but I can see it.

And I know this is really wild but my hunch on 410 is

insanely

strong. I will gladly don the foil for this

[Prism]

Yeah, to me the candidates here are Lavender and a Tayl0r who just gave up.

Tayl0r could be scum with basically the entire game in contrast, but I find Chara or Lavender by far the most likely.

[Prism]

i feel like arguing about why you (or chara too, i guess) think my puppy-caution is "not great" but i don't think that's gonna be productive for anyone involved

It's more that I don't really find Puppy-scum convincing/an epiphany to me, but I have been pretty cursory about that slot in general. Even my response to you was pretty biased in approaching it from a "This slot is likely town to me already, just find some posts why". Your reasoning is fine and far from desperate/unlikely, though.

The fact it's not blatantly town isn't a knock against you, and that's basically where I am with your slot this game period.

Maybe I'll look again, deeper and with a mental reset, when I'm not several hours into staring at the game.

[Prism]

Man I am literally shooting down your reasoning for Puppy as "not great" and "not blatantly town" and I am out here petting a cutout of Elements' 410 pasted to cardboard, Gollum-muttering to myself "Chara, you're scum, I know it, I don't know why but I WILL SOON" when Chara literally isn't even in the room

I'm going to bed lmao

[Prism]

Instead of going to bed I'm skimming Chara ISO and this seriously bleeds town in interactions...but I still remain convinced from this random ass Elements post directed to Hectic. Incredible.

I'm 100% making art for this later.

[Prism]

This feels like you're missing that I'm the only one who is really still pushing anyone besides Sujimichi, and at times explicitly defending them. This game is whiteflag, so in the hypothetical world where Sujimichi flips Chara overnight, I probably need to go. Scum cannot afford to be fougt again, so the fact that no one else is a really pushing to look elsewhere says to me that Sujimichi is probably town. (Otherwise, their partner is making absolutely zero attempt to dodge autoloss)

1402 is a direct response to a question from Morning Tweet as to who would be Sujimichi's partner. I think reviewing the post through that lens it might make a lot more sense to you. Lavender+Suji is plausible as a team, but I say "God help us all" because both are literally impossible to get content from. Redtea is somewhat readable but Lavender is sa complete coinflip.

Re: potentially ruining the game, in the hypothetical world where I successfully argue to flip the fight from Sujimichi to someone else, say Tayl0r, and Suji flips Chara....This would be me arguing us out of mechanical autowin, and if I get misfought for it, would have cost us two misfights.

[Prism]

I have another interview tomorrow so can't afford to spend time today/tonight, you get to avoid interrogation for another day.

1429 is misinterpreting. I still went to bed last night covered in tinfoil and expect to feel the same on review.

I do love 1433, just for how fun it is though.

[Prism]

Art

Spoiler: Yes, art

[Prism]

??? Puppy I really think you need to revisit the last few pages from scratch. I'm not assuming it has to be Suji at all, I'm arguing the opposite and the last few pages of mine are all dedicated to speculating that it might be Tayl0r/Chara.

[Prism]

Hey Krazy, I get that reading the earlier pages probably seems like a big hassle considering the amount of time your slot likely has left alive. I also get that we tend to have much more faith in reads we form while personally involved and active as things progress.

There is a ton of value in Day 1 this game, though, because of the scum wagon that turned this game into Day 2 whiteflag. I think Ctrl+F searching "Elements" in ISOs you're interested in is a good medium, there shouldn't be a lot even if you bothered to do it for every slot, let alone just 2 or 3.

Right now I'm kind of biased because Day 1 is telling me MT is really unlikely, and while the continued suspicion of Puppy might be scumindicative from Tanner, I readily believe that I'm just a lot more inclined to give Puppy significantly more leeway as far as what thoughts seem plausible goes. I really doubt it's MT and don't think it's Tanner is my point, I guess.

I think Tayl0r is, and should, probably be the #1 alternative choice to you right now. I still haven't made up my mind on my tinfoil theory but I have time again to tackle the game today, and hopefully Chara is around and we can either work this out or I can continue my spiral into insanity and gladiate them Day 3.

[Prism]

Who is the person in Prism's avatar?

If you're actually curious about this by the way, it is Molly Rankin, the lead singer/songwriter of Alvvays, as she appeared in their live show at the 2016 CBC Music Festival

[Prism]

I think priority #1 here for me should be reading Puppy/Tanner's push on them from a more neutral standpoint. The last time I tackled this, I was definitely working more in reverse than I would have liked (Puppytown -> Why are Tanner's points bad?). I suspect I'll still come out with both town but defusing this and hammering down each would go a long way.

sure. i was already of the thought that "this game is either really easy or there's something concerning going on." and puppy's posts from 1084-1092 just... creeped me out, i dunno, they feel like they belong in the latter gamestate. i wanted to see if he got better, and... he didn't? like i think i'm bringing up a valid concern about the possibility of an *actual* deepscum (though if you feel like i'm not, tell me, because at this point i can't tell myself) and why sparing right now is very dangerous, and i kinda find it odd they didn't interact with it further than "scum wouldn't buss day one, it's silly."

and 1225 is also kinda :/ since it was made right after hectic and i were talking and where it seemed i was a viable vote for today...

I really am struggling to see 1084-1092 scum in the same way you are. Sparing isn't happening, scumPuppy knows it, it's only going to draw attention, and the chance of them personally getting spared even if successful is zero. That doesn't mean they're town for it, but it is plausible as town, so the scumread is really tenuous here to me...The piece Puppy seems to be missing is that 2 correct spares isn't much better for us than 2 misfights, if it even is at all (I again don't want to do math). Without that, their reasoning lines up.

The person they immediately push to spare in 1298 is Chara for the push on Elements. This stuck out to me because I think Hectic was much more of a driving force there-Chara opened it with a vote for scumpings but Hectic really carried that through as I continued to press him to justify it-but is consistent with their 1090, where they don't seem to remember Hectic shoving. Maybe they're being willfully blind as scum, but this process seems really plausible to me.

From Puppy's perspective, this seems to be the case: Sparing might be slightly worse mathematically, but bussing Day 1 is so stupid that no one would do it. We've got such a good chance of getting two good spares that we should take it. I remember Chara as the person who

really

pushed that vote, so that's my first spare vote for sure.

You (Tanner) challenge the assumption that no one would bus Day 1, but I really see why someone would assume that. Even I, who has bussed their way to mathematically suboptimal extremes, am tempted to believe the same.

1225 is also kinda :/ since it was made right after hectic and i were talking and where it seemed i was a viable vote for today...

I can't quite get your point here. This is a slight defense of you while you're being prickly with Hectic, but aren't really in danger at all. I can see this post from Puppy as scum, but their townlean on you seems to be very consistent here. In 536 they try to engage you on your personality being prickly, and this townlean lines up. Ctrl+Fing your name in their ISO makes it clear they townlean you through the 100-400s, and the last we heard from them Day 1 on you in the 600s this still seemed to be the case.

In other words, they're not angling to fight you there, they're openly still wanting to spare over fighting at all, and their progression lines up really well. Am I missing something that makes this scummy to you?

[Prism]

Even just the way that Puppy is interacting with Chara really shows the trust they're placing in their memory of Day 1 imo, which really isn't accurate to me, but makes this seem incredibly legitimate. They open the day by remembering the people who really pushed Elements as them/Chara. Their first spare is Chara because of how they pushed Elements. At some point earlier today they just go "Chara you're obviously town here what are your thoughts..."

Chara started a lot of the Elements stuff for sure, it really pushed it in the 100s especially, but fell off the face of the earth from midway through the day until the end, esp. when beeboy replaces in. They didn't even think they had their vote on them, and revoted while framing it as an activity prod. Forgetting their vote is arguably +town...but I have my reservations that I'll dive into later when Chara gets here.

Point of this isn't really to shade Chara but to really hammer home that I see Puppy's thinking/memory about this slot as very, very plausibly town.

[Prism]

Reviewing redtea's meta for the 3rd/4th time I am once again unconvinced this is scum. I noted a difference in how fleshed out their reads were early in 1278 but this is pretty eh.

I took issue with Hectic's summation of redtea's slot here, particularly in the characterization of the replaceout (redtea was noticeably extremely behind on the game, and was still trying to get through the catboi/Pooky engagement that they had helped spark). I decided not to really post about it since the soft-defense/Suji stuff was valid, and the replaceout timing itself was literally true.

Looking at SIN, and then at other games though, it looks like this kind of defense is typical of redtea-town. Here are two (def Jackel) posts (def osuka, but thinks SvS theater) of redtea going very out of their way to work through and justify another player's thought process, in very similar ways.

The only game they flipped scum was in 2019, and as they note in SIN they really didn't do too hot. They basically fencesat that whole game minus a readlist with...one real read The amount of confidence they would have had this game as scum would be very impressive, given their experience with catboi playing extremely well in SIN. Buddying is plausible, but subsequently really going after catboi for leaving me out of his TRs would be very bold.

I really wish I could have asked them more on that catboi thing, though, since I remember them being fine with cat not TRing me at first.

[Prism]

prism, do you have a taylor case? for some reason i remember feeling something there yesterday but i dont remember rn, don't feel like reading through my iso to check my notes

pooky, i see you're on and you have a taylor scumcase too? is there a secret scumcase no one wanted to tell the puppy?

I don't really have a case, and the amount of content they've given makes it really hard to scumread them except for lack of it. Their progression on catboi was questionable-gut scum to gut town to I dunno, with no clear reason why for each swap, but that's really about it.

This vote would be more PoE to me. Sujimichi's probable scum partner would be...Lavender or myself. Maybe Pooky? I townread/lean basically everyone other than Tayl0r/Lavender...and now Chara. Tayl0r also straight up makes sense with virtually anyone, and their unwillingness to really hunt at any point in the game is very Chara.

[Prism]

Also, I've been very intentional about not voting. I went into the day still thinking Hectic/Ele might have been SvS, and figuring that out was kind of step 1. After that I started to waffle on my redtea townread, thinking it might just be Suji/Tayl0r. I came close to just voting them and hoping someone would hammer it so we could get the flip and call it a day. Thinking about Tayl0r voting Suji made me doubt that team, and from there I've been tinfoiling Tayl0r/Chara while wondering whether I should just hammer Suji regardless.

I don't really want to vote Tayl0r until I'm sure, whether that comes from a PoE or a scumread.

[Prism]

btw, why do you not have chara as obvtown? i saw you said something in the last page about chara not really pushing elements that hard, but it just doesnt seem that way to me. i dont think i woud have pushed that slot to begin with without chara making a good point about how elements was phoning it in (i think that was it?Y)

I think that their Elements interactions are very fakeable. I was initially impressed with their interaction back in the 120s and with 160 but I think the early pressure is very plausible. There's not that much chance of it actually going through, as opposed to putting distance in the game. As mentioned before, after the 100s/200s their pressure on Elements falls off significantly and I think it's worth reviewing for you.

I think they have a very strong ISO outside that, in that multiple posts/processes seems extremely legitimate, but I'm wary, and I have some questions.

None of this is a reason to really

scumread

them though. That part of mine is a crackpot theory/hunch based almost exclusively off of Elements 410, reinforced by seeing some small threads that I want to pluck at when Chara gets here. The scumread part is absolutely insane, I question the amount of stock I put in it, and anyone else sharing my perspective is probably even crazier than me.

Why do you think they're obvtown?

[Prism]

That votecount is interesting Hectic. The Tayl0r post you quoted is actually why my crackpot theory was Tayl0r as Chara and Chara as the other mafia.

I think you make a good point, though, in cutting off the wagon on you. I'll think on it and check over the gamestate around that time.

[Prism]

(ie. the fact that it wasn't actually viable is what made me immediately look more at Chara for a plausible partner...and I've been ruined ever since)

I've thought a lot about the beeboy push. I think either way is plausible but consider it a bit +town for Tayl0r, and was a big part of why I said "Eh, maybe it is just Sujimichi". I can see Tayl0r/beeboy/several players, though, and I can't see anything for Suji other than Lavender.

I think you'll also find 497 +town from Tayl0r, while you're rereading.

[Prism]

seems like she is consolidating from 1 counter-wagon to another to save beeboy?

That's actually why Hectic quoted 765. Puppy swaps from beeboy to Hectic, making it 3 for Hectic, 2 for beeboy, and 2 for Chara.

And then Tayl0r votes Chara.

[Prism]

I'm going to head out for a bit actually, I want to save my energy for my date with Chara later, but I'll try to slip more of a review of Tayl0r specifically. It is worth more attention than the medium amount I've given compared to looking at Puppy, Tanner, and Sujimichi.

[Prism]

I can't off the top of my head why I removed Tanner from the Suji-partner list but Puppy is super implausible imo. They've pushed 0 other fights today.

As for me, yeah, I agree that's a plausible team from an outside perspective (and the fact that I have been the ONLY PERSON worried about that is so ??? to me but sure I'll take it). It's part of why I've said "we might just have to flip the slot anyway" in that the worst case scenario for townflipping Suji is MUCH better than if I pull the fight off of scum-Suji.

[Prism]

hello, i am here but i am having a bad time. however, i still love all of you, and i'd rather not declare V/LA and then simply fade away until day end.
this game has been rough, but only because of irl. i'm going to see how much i can catch up by tonight. would anyone like anything from me in the meantime?

hi friend, i am sorry you are not doing well, and i understand if you can't put a lot of energy into this game

that said, i would love to sit down with you later tonight and

interrogate you

ask you about some of your reads earlier this game!

maybe it will take your mind off of irl, maybe it will only drive you up the wall further. it's up to you! it's not like i would ever get a fight on you to happen today anyway

[Prism]

I'm going to head out for a bit actually, I want to save my energy for my date with Chara later, but I'll try to slip more of a review of Tayl0r specifically. It is worth more attention than the medium amount I've given compared to looking at Puppy, Tanner, and Sujimichi.

oh hello. i'll rest now then and we can meet up later tonight.

Y
E
E
T

[Prism]

This wagon isn't actually at L-1 like I thought which is a bit unfortunate. I've been working under the assumption that Chara is either on the wagon (ie. is Tayl0r) or is Krazy. Votes don't count though, only HURT votes.

Deal, see ya in a few hours.

[Prism]

This wagon isn't actually at L-1 like I thought which is a bit unfortunate. I've been working under the assumption that Chara is either on the wagon (ie. is Tayl0r) or is Krazy. Votes don't count though, only HURT votes.

Deal, see ya in a few hours.

I'm going insane. I definitely did know this.

someone help

[Prism]

This wagon isn't actually at L-1 like I thought which is a bit unfortunate. I've been working under the assumption that Chara is either on the wagon (ie. is Tayl0r) or is Krazy. Votes don't count though, only HURT votes.

Deal, see ya in a few hours.

I'm going insane. I definitely did know this.

someone help

Why did you say you didn't know then lol

Wires crossing/general insanity

See Tayl0r vote, L-1, suspect they're Chara, which will soon be confirmed to be either Suji-scum or on-wagon. -> Realize a vote doesn't count, L-2 in head for the next 2/3 days. Still think Tayl0r is Chara -> See votecount, it's missing Tayl0r, wait isn't this L-1? -> Oh yeah that's why it's Suji-scum or Tayl0r-Chara-> Wait the vote doesn't count, too bad, would have been confirmed Chara -> Haven't I been here before?

[Prism]

Starting from "individual read" first principle, taking into account Ele-scum but not speculating pairings further, my reads are like this:

Hard town, bet the game on it: Puppy, MT
Probably town: Hectic, Krazy
Townleans: Pooky, Tanner
Coinflip: Lavender
Probably scum: Tayl0r

Poor child existing in both hard town and probably scum superposition: Chara

[Prism]

That said, it's time for me to revisit Tayl0r specifically and then tackle Chara

[Prism]

Tayl0r, can you talk more about the scumread of Puppy you gave in 500?

It looks like you swapped to thinking Puppy was town either by 659 (Where catboi took the top slot) or by 751 at the latest.

The Puppy posts in between these sections are all on Pages 22/23 and a bit more on Pages 26 and 27, if you need help jogging your memory.

[Prism]

Part of me is now wondering if Tayl0r did the vote knowing it didn't count. I've assumed it was an honest mistake as either alignment either way just because that seems more likely, but bussing Sujimichi with a vote that won't count is the ultimate bigbrain move here.

[Prism]

puppy is coasting and not engaged. whens the last time you saw a post from puppy that wasnt fluff?

I'm really confused by this read. You've openly admitted to doing the same. Town has a very high chance of winning this game, especially with several confident townreads like it seems Puppy has.

In general what makes you so hard to read this game is you seemed to be openly dart throwing off of gut, being very unashamed about it and generally avoiding explaining your process for how they switch.

[Prism]

Town has a very high chance of winning this game, especially with several confident townreads like it seems Puppy has.

"Why is this scum from Puppy?" is the completion to my thought here

[Prism]

I'm taking a nap but I WILL BE BACK IN 45 CHARA

[Prism]

Hectic I'm on my phone but I would love to point you to a certain post of Amrun's about mindmelding with Chara and why that is such a bad tell imo

She's still town tho

[Prism]

Hi! <3

First, back in 753 you posted the following about redtea:

266 stood out to me at the time and it still does. the defense of Elements and the attribution of a lot more forethought to Elements' angle on Puppy than i believe Elements' question really warranted gives me pause.
Elements sees what appears to be a contradiction. they question it. redtea's interpretation feels... too much? if redtea flipped mafia i'd call it an Elements townspew, if anything.

Redtea mafia -> Elements town is the contrapositive of Elements mafia -> redtea town, so this implies redtea is town via Ele's flip

How do you feel about this now?

[Prism]

This isn't really something I have a question about, but it also looks like you fundamentally have a misconception about redtea's catboi read. It seems like you think that redtea never justified this read, but I think they pretty clearly did even though for some reason they didn't just repeat themselves to Pooky (??? Confuses me too)

Very early on, they made it clear that they townread catboi for the mechanics/EV discussion. 166, 182, 183.

These are two very concrete stances, and redtea leaps off of them to pressure two people. In the first, they misinterpret a post of Hectic's to think he's discrediting catboi's EV attempts, rather than just explaining why my approach specifically was town. 266, 382, 390. In the second, redtea criticizes catboi for not including me in his townblock. 524

I don't know if this changes your view of the slot at all, but I am just curious to hear your thoughts. It seems like a lot of your Day 1 you thought they didn't really justify it or take many concrete stances.

[Prism]

You might find my 1581 interesting in that case.

or maybe it'd be boring iuno

[Prism]

Can I ask why you never voted Taylor Day 1? 882 sticks out to me here. The progression seemed to go from Taylor townlean to Taylor being your #1 scumlean. It isn't until 1017 that you flip back around to townleaning her (for a weak reason imo, but besides the point)

I'm also a bit curious as to your thoughts on Puppy around this time. In 822, shortly before the dialogue around Taylor comes up, you mention scumreading Puppy but this seems to disappear for awhile. I wish I could pose a more directed question here, sorry.

[Prism]

I can't even tell if you're being sarcastic LOL

That is one of the few times I didn't provide a bibliography so sorry

[Prism]

Hm. I guess the continued vote on Elements will continue to be a mystery-it was just really strange to me that you gave that scumread on Puppy, then called Taylor the closest thing to a scumread later, and all the while had your vote on Elements. Do you happen to remember who you thought you had your vote on that entire time? iirc you forgot it was on beeboy.

The last thing I'm immediately curious about is your progression on me. Early on you don't think I've done anything AI, later you say something that seems to be a slight townlean Initially in the game, and you seem to like my posts a lot. We've also had a repeated theme this game of you generally treating me as town/an ally. Something sticks out to you that worries you, you question it, I respond, you like the response and immediately just kind of forget about it. Despite the amount of attention to me, you've seemed to have me null the entire game.

Specific examples here of what I'm talking about are me/catboi's interactions, which you read and didn't like my approach to (...Somehow in a not AI way?). 1034 you speculate that I'm playing to you specifically, which is really strange given how all of the previous pages I was engaging directly with catboi and openly taunting him. I remember being pretty confused as to how that was to you, but it's not a big deal I think. The other that comes to mind was the "alarm bells" around Taylor. 1309, responded to by me in 1312, with you accepting my response in 1315. Early on, you seemed to also agree with catboi that one of my reads is off: 401

This pattern of having me null, but unconditionally and extensively cooperating with me, then voicing skepticism, and then immediately accepting my response and starting all over again is really strange to me.

There's so much to comment on here in my play-Me defending the Suji slot to this extent, my random tinfoil flop to you, my push on Tayl0r-and you really haven't expressed skepticism or belief in any of those things.

[Prism]

I remember feeling something was subtly wrong in the catboi progression, but I don't see anything atm so I might have to revisit it later.

Finally, I'm just really curious as to what you think of the current gamestate, esp on people like Taylor, Lavender, and even Hectic/Tanner.

[Prism]

i rethought it. Prism's talking about those reasons as though no one could believe they were evidence of you-scum was my problem, i believe.
to put it another way, that Prism spoke as though it's weird to scumread you for those things, when by my memory they were rather standard.

I think you're reading this a bit incorrectly, my intent with 1284 was that while those actions had scum incentive, they also had really obvious town motivations. Whenever I say someone or their thought process is "totally fine", especially with italics, the Prism translation of that is "i don't townread them for it but it makes sense as town"

[Prism]

I get why you think it's dismissive, though. iirc that post was me working through several players and getting a bit annoyed at not being able to nail them down

p-edit: re: my tanner statements

[Prism]

I honestly don't know here.

I think I prefer a Tayl0r elimination. I feel a lot more sure about Krazy being town after reviewing redtea over again. I'm not sure who their partner is is the real problem to me.

Reviewing Chara's ISO I did feel a lot better, and their interactions throughout the entire game have come off incredibly genuinely. The progressions on Puppy/Tayl0r/me have bothered me, but one thing that really sticks out to me, even if I feel like I

shouldn't

townread it:

Chara really

does

appear to find this game fun and not very stressful, like they say in 1613. Eager to engage with me, not really getting annoyed with my tinfoil. They might push through their stressed-out self just because they feel like they

have

to, and maybe even channel their stress into admiration for my play to make it easier, but this seems...really difficult+weird+unlikely?

I will say I expect them to stress a bit as town here too, just because I'd be wrong or I might even be scum, so I don't know why they're not.

[Prism]

puppy is coasting and not engaged. whens the last time you saw a post from puppy that wasnt fluff?

I'm really confused by this read. You've openly admitted to doing the same. Town has a very high chance of winning this game, especially with several confident townreads like it seems Puppy has.

In general what makes you so hard to read this game is you seemed to be openly dart throwing off of gut, being very unashamed about it and generally avoiding explaining your process for how they switch.

isnt it also scummy from me? isnt that why people scumread me largely?

...Right, but from your perspective, where you know that you're town doing these things, why is Puppy scummy to you?

[Prism]

Hm.

1590 of Hectic's

...Did Taylor swap because they're scum with Hectic?

[Prism]

Worth investigating.

Be back soon.

[Prism]

I think Tanner-scum is very possible, but I liked his Day 1 quite a bit on reread, and that his read progressions (I think it was on Hectic/Lavender?) made sense. I know that's not super helpful to you so I'm sorry.

Worth noting is that Tanner was an early tagalong onto Elements, despite not being on the final wagon. I asked a question about a turning point for their opinion on the Elements slot in 1387, and I thought Tanner answered it nicely with 1394.

[Prism]

Tayl0r, are you still around by chance? I have a quick question.

[Prism]

659 you're skeptical of Hectic's sudden sparepush. 714 you agree with me and think Hectic is being overly defensive. In 857, you've switched to Hectic being probably town as a goofball and vote Chara instead.

Can I ask what changed here for you?

[Prism]

@prism looking at the votecounts i just realized you're not voting. is there a reason why, or are you still deciding, or are you trying to avoid a chara hammer?

Also, I've been very intentional about not voting. I went into the day still thinking Hectic/Ele might have been SvS, and figuring that out was kind of step 1. After that I started to waffle on my redtea townread, thinking it might just be Suji/Tayl0r. I came close to just voting them and hoping someone would hammer it so we could get the flip and call it a day. Thinking about Tayl0r voting Suji made me doubt that team, and from there I've been tinfoiling Tayl0r/Chara while wondering whether I should just hammer Suji regardless.

I don't really want to vote Tayl0r until I'm sure, whether that comes from a PoE or a scumread.

As a bonus, this features me thinking it was both L-2 and L-1 simultaneously

[Prism]

659 you're skeptical of Hectic's sudden sparepush. 714 you agree with me and think Hectic is being overly defensive. In 857, you've switched to Hectic being probably town as a goofball and vote Chara instead.

Can I ask what changed here for you?

i dont see scum doubling down that hard on a bad plan. it draws too much attention from the rest of the game, and i think blatantly anti-town play normally comes from town.

Hectic didn't really double down in that timeframe from what I can tell-it had mostly happened well before 714, and he gave it up really quickly in general. He threw in the towel into the 600s.

Can you revisit those 3/4 pages again?

[Prism]

my brain just went "Prism/Tanner scum???" and now i'm beating it with a broom because expecting it did nothing to stop it.

ur deadon chara

follow ur heart

ur right but u can do nothing to stop it, ur powerless u fool

[Prism]

chara take this tinfoil suit of mine, i no longer require it. may it serve you as well as it served me.

[Prism]

@prism looking at the votecounts i just realized you're not voting. is there a reason why, or are you still deciding, or are you trying to avoid a chara hammer?

Also, I've been very intentional about not voting. I went into the day still thinking Hectic/Ele might have been SvS, and figuring that out was kind of step 1. After that I started to waffle on my redtea townread, thinking it might just be Suji/Tayl0r. I came close to just voting them and hoping someone would hammer it so we could get the flip and call it a day. Thinking about Tayl0r voting Suji made me doubt that team, and from there I've been tinfoiling Tayl0r/Chara while wondering whether I should just hammer Suji regardless.

I don't really want to vote Tayl0r until I'm sure, whether that comes from a PoE or a scumread.

As a bonus, this features me thinking it was both L-2 and L-1 simultaneously

this tells me that you were intentional about not voting but not what your intention is

The reason I haven't voted has differed off the time of day. At first, I didn't really have a scumread other than Hectic iirc and didn't read much overnight. Hectic deserved more leeway given the flip, so I didn't vote until I got more from him. After that, I was in search of a scumread and Suji wasn't it. Hold off while I evaluate. Eh,

maybe it's Suji/Taylor?

Start thinking about voting. See Taylor vote, immediately removes any chance of me voting Suji unless I just want the slot to flip for the sake of it, which I really considered.

Now I'm not voting because I'm still deciding between just letting Krazy flip and betting the game on a Taylor scumflip, and it is getting increasingly likely that I vote Taylor.

[Prism]

HURT: Taylor

I'm currently at Hectic/Tayl0r. Either way, I don't want Krazy because of what I've read about redtea and the fact that their only plausible partners are Lavender and maybe Tanner.

[Prism]

it'd be super ballsy for hectic to defend taylor with this line if they r scum together - usually this comes from townhectic?

tho hectic is definitely capable of playing that line

I think it's only that bold in hindsight now that I've pointed it out. The entire point of it was to make the case for Tayl0r-town

using

Hectic's immense towncred.

[Prism]

No real options for Hectic to push after the 600s. The only counterwagons to consider are Chara and Tayl0r. Him preemptively shutting the door on Lavender in the early 700s is a bit +town, but Lavender was never under any real vote pressure. Lavender only gets voted by Tanner until catboi switches to them well into the 1000s.

I've always been skeptical that Hectic felt too forcefully about the Elements push, and skeptical that he didn't give beeboy more of a chance. Maybe the only other option-Tayl0r-was Chara.

Hectic unnaturally kept doubling down to me when I kept calling him out for the read. Maybe he felt he had no option to see it through, and past the 600/700s he really didn't. This does require that he make a really bad mistake as scum, though: getting towncred for the Lavender read at the cost of being able to join that potential vote.

[Prism]

Okay, I think this is the team and I'm not tinfoiling. We can flip whoever, whenever.

[Prism]

All of Hectic's Day 1 was wrong to me. This explains why. Tayl0r's partner isn't Chara but Hectic. Elements 410 was indeed overly strong because it was SvS, but it was with Hectic, not Chara.

Everyone else is town to me besides Lavender. Hectic is only town to me for the vote Day 1. Whatever is left, however improbable, is likely the truth.

[Prism]

Initial ping on Elements had extremely questionable timing, too confident in Elements as he went on, Morning Tweet sparevote with no intention to push it through, came into Day 2 with a push on me that openly admitted stemmed entirely from Day 1 thinking that he didn't out.

I'm pretty sure this game is over.

[Prism]

Why have I been town to you all game by the way, Taylor?

[Prism]

What I mean when I say questionable timing on the Elements pings, by the way, since while I've explained the too confident part at a few different points in time I don't think I've hit this before:

Spoiler: Quotewall

HURT: Pooky

Tell me

, do you have any reads on anyone? You haven't stated a single one all game.

The pivot to Pooky is playing it super safe and objective with choosing what to push on.

His approach on me this game is vastly different to how he's ever treated me. The last ~5 games I've played with him he's scumread me. He was town in 4 of those, and scum in 1. My last game with him is the one he was scum in, and in that he mentioned in the scumchat that he knew how to manipulate me by playing to his townmeta, and proceeded to scumread me as usual... the FOOL, that won't ever work on me again.
So, this is very new to me. He doesn't even have a reason to townread me, he's doing it in a memey "Hectic is always town" way. I think there's a chance he's polarising his approach from his last scumgame so that I think he's town here, but he's overdoing it.

Claiming to have no other scumreads+voting Pooky just to pressure a nullread, then outing the scumpings only when I pressured him more is what made the timing questionable.

[Prism]

"that" is very descriptive, thank u

[Prism]

here's a few scumgames of me playing like that btw

[Prism]

We all agree that hectic is like ic levels of obvtown here right

i feel like Taylor/Hectic/Krazy/Lavender just has all of the mafia.

what prompted this thought, by the way?

i am not sure what it is Taylor scumreads me for.

lmfao I forgot about this from Krazy

to give my 2 cents here: n o

[Prism]

Can I ask you why you think it's Krazy over Tayl0r, first?

[Prism]

Also why were you so persuaded by the posts and not like, anything else before?

[Prism]

Prism Prism Prism....

Tayl0r only makes sense as scum if she's

exactly

scum with me. Otherwise, her day 1 actions make no sense as I've previously pointed out.

Yep. Thanks for that.

On the other hand, Krazy makes sense as scum with anyone who's been discussing alternative options for a launch today, or even apathetic scum who's accepted defeat.

You're willing to vote for the exactly Tayl0r + Hectic world over the Krazy!scum world? I find this troubling.

Yes. I think redtea was town, and I don't think Krazy has a partner other than maybe Lavender/Tanner.

[Prism]

we lost a post somehow in between my last two

Prism i just had a bad thought, if Taylor is just

this

apathetic as town and then Hectic flips Chara and we lose the chance to get him. there's nothing that tells me he would have to be Chara over mafia and nothing stopping Taylor from being mafia but she's such a wall i'm nervous.

HURT: Hectic
1752 is so much.

??? Hectic is not Chara here, the entire point of Hectic scum is to bus for towncred and he literally dies immediately as Chara without getting to use it

[Prism]

Chara-Hectic hardbussing for towncred makes absolutely no sense, if Hectic actually did that he hardtrolled his team lmao

[Prism]

Glad to see I've sparked some fire in you, Hectic! Welcome back for the night!

Reviewing redtea's meta for the 3rd/4th time I am once again unconvinced this is scum. I noted a difference in how fleshed out their reads were early in 1278 but this is pretty eh.

I took issue with Hectic's summation of redtea's slot here, particularly in the characterization of the replaceout (redtea was noticeably extremely behind on the game, and was still trying to get through the catboi/Pooky engagement that they had helped spark). I decided not to really post about it since the soft-defense/Suji stuff was valid, and the replaceout timing itself was literally true.

Looking at SIN, and then at other games though, it looks like this kind of defense is typical of redtea-town. Here are two (def Jackel) posts (def osuka, but thinks SvS theater) of redtea going very out of their way to work through and justify another player's thought process, in very similar ways.

The only game they flipped scum was in 2019, and as they note in SIN they really didn't do too hot. They basically fencesat that whole game minus a readlist with...one real read The amount of confidence they would have had this game as scum would be very impressive, given their experience with catboi playing extremely well in SIN. Buddying is plausible, but subsequently really going after catboi for leaving me out of his TRs would be very bold.

I really wish I could have asked them more on that catboi thing, though, since I remember them being fine with cat not TRing me at first.

This is my most recent review of the slot. A lot of this is new and I only cursory review the old-which is that redtea's confidence this game and early reads on me/catboi followed really cleanly from SIN, and they had good reason to be afraid of catboi after that game. Digging deeper into their meta, their last scumgame wasn't doing so hot. Buddying catboi at the start is a decent strategy but going aggressive on cat much later would be really brazen from red-scum here.

Also, this slot has no partner other than me/Lavender and maybe Tanner. As adamantly as you refuse to look into this, it's true.

[Prism]

1765 was to you Chara, meant as a followup to 1771 which got lost

[Prism]

I absolutely still have questions for that slot that I'm annoyed I can't get an answer to, like how they were fine with cat not TRing me at first, and I'm still confused as to how they forgot about the Pooky wall in general

but I think I've solved this and will bet the game on it.

[Prism]

Can I ask you why you think it's Krazy over Tayl0r, first?

What's the source of your confidence in my slot again?

Hmmm.... well I decently townread 50% of the game. Out of the rest, your slot has no good interactions with Elements.

In fact, if you ctrl-F elements in redtea's ISO, their only mentions of Elements are two separate defenses of him. 266 and 595. Neither are huge defenses, just kind of "give him the benefit of the doubt" kinda things.

I see absolutely no reason it isn't Krazy and I had like, tinfoil reads on Tayl0r

I think the meta you brought up is a fair point but probably not enough to make me change. Somebody pointed out it is 2 years old

This is really unfortunate since so much of my read comes from SIN and I can't just implant that game into your head, letting you follow along for a month real-time as it developed, watching as redtea made reads, engaged with others, but struggled with confidence, occasionally going conspiracy theory and occasionally being validated.

We might be destined to differ here.

[Prism]

Also why were you so persuaded by the posts and not like, anything else before?

no idea besides i had a very strong reaction to the post i cited when i voted Hectic.
but i also don't know what you mean by the anything else before.

As in I had really pushed Hectic Day 1 for being too confident in his Elements read for what it was.

It looks like I did actually mention the timing before in 862

Posts of me tackling the too confident thing include 672, 677, 854, 951, 1032. In some of those I mention the weird Morning spare, too.

[Prism]

I really didn't like Sujimichi replacing out Day 2, especially considering the games I looked at where he gave real-time questions/commentary AS he caught up as town rather than in one big block afterwards.

Then I realized he read Day 1 overnight, and therefore couldn't really do that. Whether he ever got around to reading the early part of today will remain a mystery until postgame

[Prism]

Still strange to me that your confidence in him being too friendly to you=scum continued to increase more and more over the course of the day, even as nothing else really happened other than me pressing you on it. Still strange to me that you were fine quickly voting out beeboy who supposedly could be really obvtown at times with extremely limited interactions.

Very strange.

[Prism]

um. hm. i might not have given my due diligence due to believing i could read Hectic fairly well on my own.
but beeboy hadn't flipped scum yet, so the specific treatment of Hectic towards the slot didn't click until you repeated yourself/reminded me just now.
also i.... sometimes.... do not read every single word of your posts when they don't catch my interest.... because some of them are pretty long...... i apologize...............

...i don't have a good answer. that is on me.

LMAO

i love the honesty it's okay, i already admitted i slotted half your posts to the side for extended periods this game it's okay friend

[Prism]

Well fortunately Hectic if Tayl0r flips town and Krazy flips scum you shouldn't have too much to worry about here.

As for the readslist/lost, it was a good point to your credit.

[Prism]

I'm also literally the only vote on Taylor. I guess Chara voted you directly. I'm really glad to have you so eagerly engaged in the game again, though!

[Prism]

Cool. If you can sell me on someone who is likely to be scum with Krazy/Elements besides Lavender, I'll vote them with you.

[Prism]

That's in this "I'm tunneled town" world. Naturally I'm the obvious Krazy partner, here.

[Prism]

As for Chara I'm still so confused as to how readily you were persuaded by Hectic-scum but somehow don't want to vote Tayl0r just because they're apathetic pls help

[Prism]

also ignoring the fact that Suji routinely flakes regardless of alignment and isn't able to play on weekends...coincidentally, their last posts were on Friday

[Prism]

if lavender is scum here btw i am officially joining tanner in running to the nearest CVS, buying a $10.79 handle of popov, and downing it in under a minute

please don't hold me to this i don't drink my tolerance is super low but i will do some wine one night

[Prism]

Regarding what Pooky as doing: There was an on-going game where I thought Pooky was scum. Backrooms was the name of the game. He was very similar in that game early on, mostly joking around and having fun, some wholesome posting, and I had a feeling this was his scumplay, especially since I'd just seen his play in the infamous 300 page mini from a while back where he was town and very contrasting.
I couldn't bring up these reasons since on-going.

Later I learnt Pooky was town in that game, and concluded that his shift in playstyle is NAI. That was in 640

Sorry, let me make sure I'm getting this right.

You observed/played in another game where he was doing the same fun/wholesome style, and instead of concluding that it's probably NAI since he's doing it in two games

simultaneously

you concluded it was scumplay in both?

Did you even bother to check previous scum-Pooky games, out of curiosity?

Every post implied you wanted to pressure him to outreads and didn't really scumlean him, btw.

"not townreading him" is ambiguous but was the given reason for the vote: saying you scumleaned the tone shift would have been

totally viable

without referencing Backrooms, only referencing the different town game you mentioned here

[Prism]

I'm absolutely calling bullshit here. You literally could have just cited the difference between the already-over towngame and this one. Backrooms doesn't need anything to do with it and the fact that it was happening in both is +NAI for sure, not +scum.

[Prism]

pushing Taylor nets a whole lot of nothing. on her reads, on her being scum, i've gotten nothing from it and i doubt you have.
but pushing Hectic does something. you're convinced they're partners, which is fair, but i'm treating them separately because i don't like to engage in preflip. Hectic is a rich ore vein that can still be mined. Taylor is spent.

and "feelings" about Taylor being actual apathetic town vs. a Hectic who i'm currently trying to find town-evidence for in the form of intuitive posting and moves made for reasons besides pure logic.

so far it's netted a flurry of activity and an apathetic act despite her practically f5ing the thread as much as us

meanwhile she isn't even trying to explain the two scumreads she's outing in the hopes that we follow after she dies

I'm fine calling the bluff, and it'd still be my fault and I'd reflect on it if I'm wrong but I would have zero sympathy for someone who is just concerned with being right themselves and not in helping us get the win

[Prism]

They flake as town, coincidentally in that game on a Thursday. They swung in today on a Friday. I don't see this as AI.

Now go do redtea's meta. Please, I'm begging you.

[Prism]

Again, could have just compared it to the towngames or gave exactly what you said-that the fun/fluff style might be scum-without citing Backrooms. Instead you only cite "not townreading" and pressurevote.

I'm calling BS.

[Prism]

Okay hold the fucking phone

HURT: redtea

HURT: Pooky

Tell me

, do you have any reads on anyone? You haven't stated a single one all game.

These posts were a minute apart. Nope. Nope nope nope. No way.

[Prism]

i meant to be asleep two hours ago.
night.

but chara

we were having FUN friend

kidding, goodnight

[Prism]

five minutes apart I can't read wow

slightly more plausible I guess

[Prism]

ah goddamnit 316 is about redtea not about pooky

fuck my life

[Prism]

Alright, guess I'll slow down, not get ahead of myself, and think about this a bit more critically.

[Prism]

I'm having fun either way, though maybe that's no consolation.

[Prism]

Perhaps I should call it a night as well. Me getting excitable has tended to lose games.

[Prism]

I'm just hype for me/Hectic to choke each other fighting over who the deepwolf is and then have it just be Lavender+one of Krazy/Tayl0r

[Prism]

I know somewhere in that great heavenly sky catboi is laughing at me, getting bits of popcorn all over his shirt as he guffaws midchew, playing that benny hill theme record that he loves so much

[Prism]

Okay, Taylor has no completed scumgames, but she does now have a completed towngame.

The play is night and day different-in how aggressive Taylor is, in how thoughtful her reads are, and in how willing she is to push the game to give content.

There's a slight similarity in that at one point she says essentially to just forget it and vote her, but it's visibly frustrated and is done while decrying how bad it is to drag days out as town.

There are several instances where she cites principles totally applicable to this game. One example:

Too bad that there doesn’t seem to be anyone in the entire game who can willingly defend you as town. Makes me think I’m not off base at all...

uhhhhh.... usually if youre scum you have at least one person willing to defend you. if youre town theres no one to defend you

Some of these posts are just gold given Taylor's play this game. Here's one about a readslist someone gave, compare it to her own extremely underdeveloped one this game:

See the top of this page.

i guess im looking for a bit more insight into where your head is at. what exactly stands out to you about the people at the end of the list? or what is it that makes you have trouble sorting them? even as a PoE player, shouldnt you have at least some sort of scumread by now? you havent seen any behavior that strikes you as scummy? the readlist feels like a bit of a copout. can i ask you to elaborate some more on why you have townies sorted as town?

Compare this reaction to someone else complaining about getting misfought:

good luck to us

VOTE: 72offsuit

i think i feel good about this

Sure u do. Miskicking town is always good

well if youre town go ahead and try to help us solve

Like where on earth is this Taylor that does wagon speculation and actively takes different approaches to get content from players???

well of the four people off-wagon, two are confirmed town. the odds that scum were not on the wagon are very low. we should kill someone who was on the wagon. in fact there are decent odds both scum were on-wagon, although i dunno, word is still pretty scummy.

mush i appreciate your different perspective, but i think if no one is able to follow your reasoning then theres a chance that the issue might be with the way you're communicating it. its not that what youre seeing isnt there necessarily, but somewhere along the line no one is able to seee what youre seeing. also youve been tunneled for a little bit too long with nothing to show for it. can you do me a favor and assume im town for a minute? what does the game look like from your pov if i flip green?

[Prism]

OH MY GOD HECTIC IS IN THIS GAME LMAO

AND APPARENTLY HAS NOT NOTICED THE DIFFERENCE

[Prism]

god I cannot wait to hear more from hectic defending this taylor slot tomorrow, i really can't

[Prism]

Morning, I don't know how much you like to meta, but I would just say, put aside everything about Krazy for a second.

Take the ISO I just linked of Taylor's. Take the ISO of Taylor this game. Spend 3/4 minutes skimming each one, you don't even have to read that indepth.

Please tell me with a straight face they are likely town this game. Or that Hectic, who was in that game, somehow does not notice the world of difference.

[Prism]

...Circumstances like flipping a role that immediately flips after the first townfight, meaning they have basically nothing to do but avoid getting fought?

[Prism]

I get caring about one more game than another, or being apathetic in one.

The quality of reads in these games though are worlds apart, as is their eagerness to work with/engage in others. We're on page 74 and their best reads are that Tanner is scum for "gut" and that "something feels off there" about Chara

There's caring about the game and then there is not giving even the slightest hint of critically thinking about alignments a single time

[Prism]

Sample size is a problem but you better believe that if Hectic is pushing Krazy scum for Suji flaking twice as scum and once as town, I'm pushing Taylor for being a completely different caliber of player in another game.

[Prism]

Alright, i should have called it a night already, I can do all this tomorrow

[Prism]

HURT: Isis

I hate to post again tonight but I can't stop thinking that I need to rein in my excitable instincts.

This could still be the team, but I need to recenter tomorrow and remove my emotions from it. My early thoughts tend to be good, it's when I let my excitement get the better of me that things start going to shit.

[Prism]

2) theres an active and loud town leader, and to me if theres an active and loud town leader all reads revolve around that person and whether you follow the leader or not. i dont do well in an environment like this game where prism is dictating everything.

I think this is extremely fair. Part of me getting excitable is that my reads get worse-but the other part is that the demand it puts on the other players is immense. I have learned many times over that, try as I may, I cannot win alone, and no amount of reading will grant me the superpower I want. I will also note that this game has really only been dictated by me/had to suffer my energy in the last week.

I think the biggest immediate obstacle for you right now is just sharing what it is you're seeing in Chara/Tanner. One is a near-universal TR and one is pretty safe. Having two gutreads is natural, but digging deeper and making them more concrete is really important here.

What is it that you think you're seeing that everyone else is missing about these two?

[Prism]

For my part, I'm very willing to step back here and give more space to others. This game has desperately needed that. If that means we flip Krazy, and I get nightkilled without the gamesolve of my dreams, so be it. And if I don't, I will get my chance again.

I don't want to lose. That's all there is to it.

[Prism]

None of what you said is true FMPOV. While I did have that as my solve at last check-in, my reply to you asserting only that made sense was tongue-in-cheek. A big part of my point is that Tayl0r seems to make sense with several while Krazy is just me/Lavender and maybe Tanner. 1590 is indicative but not definitive.

Pretty sure Puppy just described a me/Chara team

Regardless of Taylor's alignment I do want to make room for others though. Consider this my day off. I'll be reading but avoiding posting. Hold me to it by giving me a nice STFU if needed.

Flip Krazy if you want, don't feel pressured to wait for me. I think Tayl0r/Hectic makes some sense but so do a few others. There's also a world where Pooky-chara is waiting to quickhammer that I haven't explored.

[Prism]

? I wasn't a universal townread at all. My only scumread was Hectic and I had just spent all day being extremely hesitant to vote the flipped scum.

I think the only people townreading me were you, redtea, Hectic, maybe MT? Hectic's was a weak gutread.

[Prism]

I was active Day 1 but I didn't start dictating the pace of the game until I flipped the switch in 1264

[Prism]

Hey Taylor, I'm still really curious about making your Tanner/Chara reads more accessible to us, but can you walk us through the Sujimichi vote and why you chose not to revote it with the hurt tag?

[Prism]

I think the chance of Hectic being Chara is very slim. If he is Chara he hardtrolled his team by bussing very hard Day 1, knowing all the while that he isn't the scum that needs to make a deep run.

[Prism]

Chara, how are you feeling/what are you thinking about now that we've had a day to slow down and think?

[Prism]

HURT: Taylor

I am not as confident in this anymore as I would like to be. However, even if it is wrong I suspect Krazy will also be town. I want blood, and between the two I think this has a much better chance.

[Prism]

Pooky, I'm curious as to some stances from you. You've been cautious about the Krazy wagon and seem to be conflicted-heart says yes, mind says no, here are some bad things about Taylor. Bits and pieces of your other reads might be found elsewhere but a collection/overview of where you're at with the game overall.

You haven't voted, so I'm wondering if that is all trying to figure out Krazy v. Taylor, or if there's some other reason you're waiting/other party you're looking at.

[Prism]

Puppy, it seems like you've wanted me to put together a Taylor case for awhile. To be blunt, I don't have much of a case. I strongly feel that redtea was town based off of meta. Taylor is left mostly by PoE, and their struggle to justify any of their reads or more seriously engage with us while shifting the blame for that around, and playing the "lol fight me but it's your fault, I'm just apathetic town!" theater card imo. Pooky also made a great point that beeboy likely gave up on their slot for IRL reasons right before the Taylor push.

It seems like you're voting Krazy just because it's "as good as any other". Who do you actually think is the best vote here?

P-Edit: Maybe Tanner, okay.

[Prism]

I can't read that's Krazy saying Tanner not Puppy. Assumptions are bad, y'all

[Prism]

I'll review Tweet because it's been eons, but she was lockdown to me along with Puppy on multiple passthroughs for a combination of progression, reactions, and interactions with the beeboy slot.

I am trying to keep my posting volume lower here, so I might hold off on walling about it for awhile just so that others keep chiming in.

[Prism]

Thanks Puppy, I appreciate it. I think your pool is pretty solid. Hectic is probably my individual scumread, but I don't think he's Chara and so I'm not really going after him today.

I think getting it right is more important than you're making it out to be because even though we get information in the form of seeing Chara, now is probably our best chance to win the game until the 1v1 at the end. Deepwolf or no, today is our only chance to have a wrong townread and still win.

[Prism]

I say that not to cajole you, but in the hopes that you'll look at the slots you listed more carefully. If one is Chara, our only chance to vote them is today-and depending on the regular mafia, our life will get significantly harder.

I strongly prefer Taylor to Lavender but I would probably go Lavender over Krazy.

[Prism]

Sell me on something better then. So far, you really haven't tried to.

I'll wear the the L I deserve if you're town but you're not doing your part, either. Shaming me isn't going to work.

[Prism]

Morning, I get that regardless of what Hectic is this read is going to be trustable FYPOV, but I'm with Krazy here in that I refuse to trust reads that I can't see the reasoning for myself. Hectic refuses to out it so to me it might as well be worthless even if he flips.

This is secondary, and I haven't tried to pick a fight over it, but refusing to out it is imo horrible for both of you as players and for the health of the games you play, period.

[Prism]

Krazy, I'm about to go back over MT, but the sequence of 651, 671, and 676 might be of interest to you. As background, sparing was basically universally shotdown already, and iirc Hectic made a slight mistake about how Chara worked that made him give up on this spare plan revival attempt.

[Prism]

Morning, it looks like you never really explained why you gained more confidence in the Elements vote as time went on. Can you discuss your progression on that slot a bit more?

230 is by far your best statement of a case on Elements. 279 you dial it back a bit and explain why. In 415 they take your second lowest slot, but the only statement in your notes seems to have them as +town. 563 you seem to be coming around to him as more null/town. You flip your vote to Tayl0r from Elements somewhere in the 400s, but never really explained it. You pull back after their readslist. In 916 Elements/beeboy are back on the bottom with no explanation, and you vote beeboy to make it X-2. 1023 agrees with beeboy on Tayl0r, but by 1037 you're back to voting beeboy and having them at the bottom of your list.

Can you explain more around your two votes+the unvote between of beeboy, why you felt better and better about fighting that slot over time, and what made them perennially at the bottom of the list for you?

As a sidenote, I'm also curious because you made a point for redtea town that is a big part of why I townread the slot in 563. What do you think of it now?

[Prism]

I'm not too inclined to go read a game from scratch but your [Morning's] reads/interactions this game seem to have significantly more depth to them here than in the first scumgame of yours I found, Mini Normal 2132. Simultaneously it seems like Hectic wrongly townread you all game so I really can't say this sparks a new personal confidence in him.

[Prism]

That's really interesting. Do you think it's more likely Hectic is using his previous experiences to fake an overconfident read on MT rather than him maybe just being wrong again?

I mean I think Hectic is scum period, Tayl0r scum or not. Maybe there would be some specific Chara flip that would change my mind but I hate his Day 1 so overwhelmingly, and it has become so glaringly obvious to me that trusting him merely for the Elements vote is a bad idea, that I have a hard idea believing I won't gladiate him tomorrow unless we just want to flip Lavender for the sake of it.

[Prism]

I am a bit skeptical of MT's progression on Ele and redtea, but I'm still inclined to slot them as town. They don't really get anything from buddying me/catboi early, and coming to Tayl0r's defense seems really strange from scum-MT here unless the team is exactly those two. I also agree with catboi that their analysis in their earlygame readwall was solid, and I do think MT's reaction about my criticism of Hectic was solid. Maybe MT is capitalizing on a wrong Hectic read here but ? iuno

[Prism]

Eh, that MT read I just gave is really lazy. It needs more careful tracking of how the overall game was at those points. Might be time to call it a night.

I wasn't even supposed to play today.

[Prism]

I miss my muse, I want blood but I don't want to vote Krazy, Taylor essentially refuses to work with me, and I can't even troll catboi. h e l p

[Prism]

I investigated the night kill a bit and think it's minorly +town for the slot, but I'm really a lot more convinced around their play and how they interacted with me/catboi from the getgo.

They struggled with confidence as town in SIN and watched catboi have a very strong performance, probably the town MVP except for the accidental scumvig from another slot. They immediately gave more confident TRs on both me/catboi that were natural given the results of SIN. Buddying catboi is a plausible reaction strategy, but going after him and really taking him to task for not having me in his townbloc later seems to run counter to that whole plan.

This isn't even getting into more nuanced meta, like them not giving reads

at all

in their single scumgame from over a year ago (again, the confidence this game given that is impressive) or that the type of explaining Elements' thinking for him is something they do as town too.

[Prism]

It totally validates the kill, but it's not even a thought as to whether they chose it. They flaked and got replaced by Hopkirk within 10 minutes of the end of Day 1, before eventually having Sujimichi replace them instead. Confident TR->going after him because someone is missing from cat's townbloc (which redtea was in!) says to me that they got a pang of paranoia about the slot, rather than that they were trying to buddy it.

[Prism]

You got roasted by multiple players for not being able to justify your read progression on him, which was scum-> gut town -> gut ???

768 and 789 catboi clearly scumreads you and explains why, 924 you're second up in his list after beeboy. 968 he agrees with beeboy that your flop is bad and votes you.

That's the last he says about you before him and I slapfight, he scumreads me, and subsequently dies. The worst you said about him at the end of the day is that you "still had misgivings" in 857 and had "something you don't like" in 861 after I question you about it. He is begrudgingly added to your 6 person PoE.

Ie. Yeah, he scumread you and actually pushed/voted you. Maybe you'll have more promise taking the above in conjunction with your "Why didn't Prism die?" question that you followed up zero on.

[Prism]

You've tried literally every strategy in the book to dodge this vote EXCEPT trying to explain your reads to the locktown person voting you. Apathy, testing the waters on other players, testing the waters on me, outright shaming me for the vote.

Bewildering. I'm out of patience.

[Prism]

Like, as you've pointed out previously, this game doesn't and should not revolve around me, but this strategy of posting "bad vote lol" or one-off questions instead of just sitting down and explaining plainly where you're coming from is bizarre.

[Prism]

I guess the sentence about you is something and I should be happy instead of tilting off the face of the earth

[Prism]

HYPE

[Prism]

naw I'm definitely the only person pressing you consistently, maybe pooky recently too? absolutely 90% me

p-edit: ???????? you have got to be kidding

[Prism]

okay if she's town this obviously isn't working if she thinks i'm not desperately trying to pry literally whatever i can from her

i'm tagging out pooky has this on lock

[Prism]

I agree, I'm willing to continue to give her the benefit of the doubt, but it's very clear that for whatever reason, if she is town, I have failed to communicate clearly.

It's time to give someone else a turn.

[Prism]

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt by letting you communicate with someone else without taking every other post to powershove you.

Me dipping also means you get the chance to flesh out that avenue on me fully, which I actively encourage even though to me it is wrong. If you have questions for me on it, I will revisit them in a few hours, but this is your time to shine.

For Krazy, I have no pronoun preference.

[Prism]

An idea popped into my head. Chara is absent. It didn't check the game for a day. Could this just be it actually having a life, and not spending it glued to a computer screen? Or is there some more insidious plan at work?

Spoiler: A Theory

I'm getting DENNIS-system'd. Leaving me alone today with Tayl0r marks the second N

[Prism]

I feel like you aren't genuinely sorting my slot, Hectic.

You say I have massive scum equity with Krazy, but just leave it at that. I'm town, but I feel like you should have figured out by now that the far more dangerous possibility is that I'm scum with not-Krazy.

You agree that I seem obvtown and my scumgame would have to be insane, but I don't think you can explain why other than insane effort the last 20/30 pages. If I'm destined to be solo scum, though, I have to put in great effort. You haven't looked into my scum meta at all, either, as far as I can tell.

[Prism]

My presence is eternal, my gaze inescapable

[Prism]

the light has gone from my life

once again I am alone

[Prism]

I'll be curled up in bed, curtains drawn, softly looping Tame Impala and Frank Ocean on my phone speaker if anyone needs me

NOT THAT ANYONE EVER WILL

[Prism]

I am getting DENNIS system'd

I am getting DENNIS system's for sure

Oh goddamnit

[Prism]

2050 is moving onto "Inspire Hope"

[Prism]

Responding more seriously to recent events,

w/e revisit Hectic another day, my focus for the vote has always been more on Tayl0r. Getting updated thoughts as to the current vote choices would be cool (Krazy, Taylor, Lavender...and Tanner?)

For Krazy, I do not think Lavender/Tanner is likely either. Tanner was very adamant in sticking to Lavender Day 1. It's theoretically possible but I have yet to dislike a Tanner post anyway.