Open 725: Jungle Republic - Day 5

[TheYankeeReaper]

VOTE: ceejayinova

Yep. Needs more pressure votes.

I'm really not sure how to engage with you about your read on me skitter. you literally nitpicked a shitpost and said you're getting "scummy vibes" from me.

I don't know what the 'right' reaction would've been, but ignoring me calling you scummy and then voting me wasn't it.

This sounds incredibly ingenuine. Particularly this:

"but ignoring me calling you scummy"

Anybody else feel this way?

Will post more later. No time for love, Dr. Jones.

How exactly does your example for my 3 posts in the other game match the post I made here?

[ceejayvinoya]

I only gave the thread a quick skim on the first read through so I'm gonna go back and think about some posts now.

Only ones that really stand out are

Town - Skitter

Scum - UD , Sando (based on 154)

Um. What if UD and Sando really are ignorant of the fact that mafia can't kill? I glossed over those posts and thought them NAI, because they could go either way.

[the worst]

VOTE: ceejayinova

Yep. Needs more pressure votes.

I'm really not sure how to engage with you about your read on me skitter. you literally nitpicked a shitpost and said you're getting "scummy vibes" from me.

I don't know what the 'right' reaction would've been, but ignoring me calling you scummy and then voting me wasn't it.

This sounds incredibly ingenuine. Particularly this:

"but ignoring me calling you scummy"

Anybody else feel this way?

Will post more later. No time for love, Dr. Jones.

How exactly does your example for my 3 posts in the other game match the post I made here?

Where are you going with this?
This line of enquiry is boring as hell and I can't see any value in it. let's cut to the chase.

[Sando]

Um. What if UD and Sando really are ignorant of the fact that mafia can't kill? I glossed over those posts and thought them NAI, because they could go either way.

Neither of us were ignorant of it, we both assumed it due to the role PMs not mentioning it, and we both missed the actual statement in the mechanics part that is totally clear.

[ManWithNoName]

True or false? The only time you would possibly read the mafia role PM and not the Werewolf PM is if you rolled Mafia.

[the worst]

+1 I try and not read anything except my alignment unless I have like...responsibilities.

[Sando]

True or false? The only time you would possibly read the mafia role PM and not the Werewolf PM is if you rolled Mafia.

True. I guess given your vote I can now assume you're actually talking scuminess and you've decided to step up to the plate?

So my assumption that mafia do not have an NK was based on reading their role PM and not seeing the NK, AND reading the werewolf one and seeing it mentioned. What about that says to you that I only read one of the role PMs?

[TheYankeeReaper]

theworst, if you had to pick a scum partner(s) for Espeonage who would it be.

[AP]

OK, serious read.. duckling is town

So far I've pegged 3 townies with some degree of confidence: Pintu, MWNN & tw

Next..

Can you tell the rest of the class why you're reading those three town?

I have my reasoning in a zip file. Let me unzip and get back to you.

[Sando]

+1 I try and not read anything except my alignment unless I have like...responsibilities.

Duckling should be aware that I read all the role PMs based on prior gameplay with me that I know he's seen The conclusive statement that mafia don't have a NK is not in the role PMs, it's in the opening mechanics post, which I didn't read thoroughly enough evidently.

[Sando]

OK, serious read.. duckling is town

So far I've pegged 3 townies with some degree of confidence: Pintu, MWNN & tw

Next..

Can you tell the rest of the class why you're reading those three town?

I have my reasoning in a zip file. Let me unzip and get back to you.

I'm putting AP as town for today, but I disagree with his blanket townreads on MWNN and tw, duckling especially.

[the worst]

theworst, if you had to pick a scum partner(s) for Espeonage who would it be.

your mother

you're a comedian

[ManWithNoName]

True or false? The only time you would possibly read the mafia role PM and not the Werewolf PM is if you rolled Mafia.

True. I guess given your vote I can now assume you're actually talking scuminess and you've decided to step up to the plate?

So my assumption that mafia do not have an NK was based on reading their role PM and not seeing the NK, AND reading the werewolf one and seeing it mentioned. What about that says to you that I only read one of the role PMs?

Why was there any confusion then? Like any did you need to ask the question?

[Sando]

Why was there any confusion then? Like any did you need to ask the question?

So what I'm taking out of this is you're running a line of questioning here without actually reading the thread, correct?

Here's what happened:
UD asks whether we've got confirmation mafia have no kill or if we're all just assuming it
Sando says "well I assumed it cause mafia role PM doesn't have it, but werewolf does"
Draynth then says "you guys are idiots, it's written really clearly"
Sando acknowledges his stupidity

That's what you're pushing against here... I never asked a question throughout, so I don't know what you're on about there.

[ManWithNoName]

And at what point have I not been up at the plate? Did you not understand that when I was asking questions before the purpose is to sort people with information? You might not understand my methods, but they have worked pretty reliably, so I'll stick to them.

[TheYankeeReaper]

theworst, if you had to pick a scum partner(s) for Espeonage who would it be.

your mother

you're a comedian

The non-chalant townie front that you're trying to put up isn't going to make me want to unvote you. Sorry.

Espeonage bussing you that early is a real humdinger, pardner.

[skitter30]

I haven't played with scum!tw yet but he doesn't really feel like the town!tw I've played with previously to me right now.

Like I'm having a lot of trouble seeing his vote on me come from town!him given past games.

I feel like in general he's trying to gloss over being scumread or is trying to play down people scumreading him.

ok how does town!tw respond to people scumreading him for awful reasons on d1?

I'll wait.

Idk exactly. I'd have expected town!you to talk to me about it, or joke/meme/mock me for reading you wrong. Completely ignoring it only to vote me once someone else does without addressing the initial scumread in any way feels wrong.

--

I don't feel like this is an actual feeling she actually has.

You do realize you're using my reasons to scumread you as reasons to scumread me, right?

--

first and foremost: does anyone actually think it was dumb of me to miss that Espe's post here was meant to be sarcastic?
it genuinely felt like good ol' fashioned scumfuckery.

So, drunk!you thought that NM had successfully tricked scum!esp into hopping on a fake scumslip?

Why is this scum!indicative of esp and not just lazy!indicative of esp? Like I don't get why you think this is scummy and not just lazy.

2) his vote was serious in which case I can't see town motivation in it.

He said his vote was serious cuz he was too lazy to go back and check. I agree that there isn't town motivation in that, but lack of town!motivation != scum!motivation. Like I just think it's a lazy indicator and not an alignment indicator and I'm not getting where you're seeing scum motivation.

--

OK, serious read.. duckling is town

Why town!duckling?

also @mwnm since you said you had mixed up the duckling's meta and agreed with this.

bottom of page 10, I'll pick up from there in a bit

[skitter30]

wrt the 'sando/ud scum-not-killing' thing:

=> In general I don't really care if people try to get clarification about the setup or think it's AI, but ud's original post kinda pinged me since we just played a game where scum!him would deliberately invoke the setup and his 'lack' of knowledge of it in an attempt to indicate that he was town.

=> I don't think that knowing that scum don't nk in this setup without seeing it explicitly written out in the OP is particularly meaningful -> like I know that from playing a previous iteration of this game and without reading this OP. Sando coming to that conclusion from reading the role PMs, and I don't find unusual.

=> I do find it weird that sando is defending/speaking for ud and is saying things like 'we both ...' (162 and 253)

=> sando's 169 feels like an overaction to me to mwnn's statement

=> I don't understand the argument btwn sando and mwnn regarding whether ww's are given the title of 'scum' or how this discussion is like relevant or game advancing.

[skitter30]

theworst, if you had to pick a scum partner(s) for Espeonage who would it be.

your mother

you're a comedian

[pinturicchio]

Ok I'm back. I have an experiment: if you're town, reply saying "I'm town". If you're not town, say "I'm not town". This is a bit risky but it could work

[Sando]

=> I do find it weird that sando is defending/speaking for ud and is saying things like 'we both ...' (162 and 253)

I'm not defending UD, I'm attacking MWNN's defective line of questioning. He's running a line without taking the time to understand the context or even read what happened. Town have no motivation to do that, so it's either lazy town play or it's scum-play. He's also making a habit of asking questions that are clearly designed to scumhunt someone (me in this case) yet are followed by a swift retreat when the reasoning behind them is questioned:

Spoiler:

You could be different factional scum.

I doubt it but it's possible

Seems reasonable, except:

So you're saying one of us might be scum pretending not to know that we don't have NK, and the other person might be a werewolf who does have an NK, also pretending they don't know scum don't have an NK...

Also we both did it by assuming that scum don't have an NK and missed the statement in the mechanics part.

It just makes no sense.

How have you determined that the Werewolves are not scum, Sando?

Scum is anyone anti-town in my book.

MWNN then ignores the logical fallacy that I'm pointing out and narrows in on the word "scum".

But honestly, what do you hope to achieve with this line of questioning? You think wolves are going to be parochial about their alignment and deny their "scumminess" or something?

I ask again, what does he actually think about this is scummy, what's the scum motivation?

This just all went over my head. I'm going to stop talking to you now, this conversation is boring and confusing after I asked you to explain one use of a term.

I don't think it's a gambit to have anyone pretend not to know that they have no factional kill, I was just pointing out your flaw with the reasoning that "two scum wouldn't both do the same thing" is that there are two scum factions who may independently decide to do the same thing. That's it.

Please just speak like a normal human being from now on rather than someone who swallowed a goddamned dictionary and is trying to show off.

He backs way the hell back from the line of questioning and any suggestion of scum motivation. Also no-one pretended not to know about the factional kills, so him saying this tells me he hasn't actually read the interaction between me and UD that is the basis for all of this.

Ok, so we're not talking scuminess? Cause I took your questioning to be "this could be scum I caught over 'ere", or am I wrong there?

I pursue, cause I want him to explicitly state whether the line of questioning is scumhunting or just clarification.

I was not implying scumminess, I was asking for clarification.

Again, backs way the hell away from implying scumminess. He then votes me with no further reasoning a few ISO posts later.

There is a clear pattern here, ask a vague leading question that implies scumminess, when challenged on that, obfuscate and back away whilst denying they were ever actually trying to imply scumminess.

[ceejayvinoya]

I think Sando is on to something here.

VOTE: MWNN

[ceejayvinoya]

theworst, if you had to pick a scum partner(s) for Espeonage who would it be.

your mother

you're a comedian

The non-chalant townie front that you're trying to put up isn't going to make me want to unvote you. Sorry.

Espeonage

bussing

you that early is a real humdinger, pardner.

Are you saying that the worst and Espeonage are scum together?

[skitter30]

Um. What if UD and Sando really are ignorant of the fact that mafia can't kill? I glossed over those posts and thought them NAI, because they could go either way.

Neither of us were ignorant of it,

we both assumed it due to the role PMs not mentioning it, and we both missed the actual statement in the mechanics part that is totally clear.

I guess my specific problem with this is that you're saying 'we both assumed it due to the role PMs not mentioning it', when UD hasn't said anything of the sort so like .... how do you know that's what he assumed? Like why are you explaining his thought process for him?

--

There is a clear pattern here, ask a vague leading question that implies scumminess, when challenged on that, obfuscate and back away whilst denying they were ever actually trying to imply scumminess.

so it's either lazy town play or it's scum-play.

Which is it?

--

what's your read on me btw?

--

sando and mwnn not scum together I think?

--

(aside, nice use of 'parochial' )

[Sando]

Which is it?

I'm a) leaning 60/40 badtown/scum, and b) typically have atrocious D1 scumreads (my townreads are pretty good though). Only scum are

motivated

to act in the way he has, but I'd say it's fairly good scumplay and quite a subtle art, so it's more likely to be a townie being silly imo. Then again never played with him, there's certainly people I'd 100% think this was scum from, but I don't know his play at all so I can't judge it very well yet.

what's your read on me btw?

Slight town-lean, not today's lynch. I'm curious about your style and have thoughts on it, but I'd like to see how it evolves (or remains unchanged) over the course of a day or two before making a judgement there.

(aside, nice use of 'parochial' )

Glad someone appreciated it