Mini Normal 2336 | Birds | Night 3

[GreedyBanger]

@Rosen also you said “when cop gets info” in that post as well. Are you saying you know there’s a cop in the game ?

Zoinks.

I dunno about that question scoob

I know where I’m going with this question, Shaggy.

Jinkies if you are s-s-s-s-s-sure

[KayJayQueue]

also, if you ISO geraintm you'll see nothing from them but a tunnel based on a non-serious gut. truly a player who's swayed by their lunch rather than the crowd

Sounds like gera

[HighPrincessErinys]

also, if you ISO geraintm you'll see nothing from them but a tunnel based on a non-serious gut. truly a player who's swayed by their lunch rather than the crowd

Sounds like gera

Have to concur, as much as it would be awesome if it didn't.

[Rosenator]

@Rosen what do you mean seeing where it lies? What do you mean taking a back seat like me and T3?

y'all just haven't posted in a while is all.

@Rosen also you said “when cop gets info” in that post as well. Are you saying you know there’s a cop in the game ?

i don't know that for sure - but it would be a really strange setup if there wasn't. i'm making this thing called an "assumption"

[KayJayQueue]

@Rosen what do you mean seeing where it lies? What do you mean taking a back seat like me and T3?

y'all just haven't posted in a while is all.

@Rosen also you said “when cop gets info” in that post as well. Are you saying you know there’s a cop in the game ?

i don't know that for sure - but it would be a really strange setup if there wasn't. i'm making this thing called an "assumption"

Strange how?

[DArby]

@Rosen also you said “when cop gets info” in that post as well. Are you saying you know there’s a cop in the game ?

Zoinks.

I dunno about that question scoob

I know where I’m going with this question, Shaggy.

Jinkies if you are s-s-s-s-s-sure

@rosen, also just to clarify: don’t confirm the reason how if yes. It’s just odd that a player that has been established to have read up on the wiki and claims to be a vt states they’re waiting on a cop to reveal the answer. Either they’re selectively reading the wiki, or there’s something they know that we don’t and they let that slip. I just want to know which one.

P-edit: looks likes the answer to the question is not fully reading the wiki on the game set up

[DArby]

@Rosen what do you mean seeing where it lies? What do you mean taking a back seat like me and T3?

y'all just haven't posted in a while is all.

I have the most posts in the game by almost double of the next person wdym.

[Val89]

I'm glad to see what appears to be a bit of good sense return to the game.

It's true that 199 sucks. I would add 158 to that as well, although that may be because I am struggling to understand what is actually being said in that one.

Despite that, we took a minor detour into a discussion about what people meant by "low hanging fruit" earlier in the game, and they smell a lot like actual LHF - as per my definition - to me. I came up with a list earlier of plausible sounding issues that I figure I could have pushed Rosen for if I were scum, and it wasn't hard at all, even though logically, none of it feels actually AI.

I recall when I came to mafiascum, I came after playing several hundred hours of short-form online mafia (Throne of Lies was my choice, rather than ToS) where the games are very mechanics heavy, mass claiming early is common, and the games are almost like puzzles to solve - heavy on the deduction rather than the social - I know the few in person games I've played (mainly One Night Ultimate Werewolf) are much the same, and someone with experience with epicmafia will have to confirm what site culture is like there, the second-hand impression I've gotten from when I've seen in discussed elsewhere on the website leads to me to think it's probably in the same vein. Nothing I've seen from Rosen can't be explained by someone struggling to switch from that mindset, and the think both the early VT claim, and the comments about wanting to wait D2 for a potential cop result AFTER I explained earlier in the game why discussing theoretical PRs wasn't it only stands to reinforce that impression.

They can't both be simultaneously overeager newbie scum who couldn't contain themselves, who has been so easy to catch the whole game knows it by page 10, and a genius openwolf running around PR hunting under our noses. This wagon sucks. Get off it and join me on Hu Tao, where you have a chance of actually hitting scum.

[DArby]

Val, as always, you make a good argument, but I cannot for the life of me know how you think Hu is a good day one choice if we’ve established at worst this is a null behavior from her

[DArby]

Of course, it would make sense if you were trying to do a misdirection

[GreedyBanger]

They can't both be simultaneously overeager newbie scum who couldn't contain themselves, who has been so easy to catch the whole game knows it by page 10, and a genius openwolf running around PR hunting under our noses. This wagon sucks. Get off it and join me on Hu Tao, where you have a chance of actually hitting scum.

This is fair and a good bit of why I am unhappy with the Alyssa wagon. Rosenater just feels different to me in a way I am bad at articulating. I think a lot of the smoke on both is very overblown as you have said but I think Rose has some really bad posts that would be bad if anyone had made them. 199, 242 and 49 give me the willies in that order of magnitude. Why are you willing to overlook them and dismiss them as not having a chance to flip scum over HT?

[Val89]

@D'Arby I have not seen any evidence that it's null behaviour from her, is the problem. Like I said to you in 163, seeing an example or two of where she's caught doing scum doing "it", where I am struggling to figure out what "it" is, as she's POSTIVITLY ASSERTED she has, would be enough to explain that behaviour. Just the name of the game, I'll do the leg work myself.

She is ignoring my request to do so, and you've told me you won't ask her; so until I do see evidence of that, my chosen way of dealing with that remains to continue pointing out that refusal while encourage pressure and do the work myself. As I continue to skim her games and see no evidence - although I have seen at least 2 references so far to her deliberately and actively changing her play as both alignments - I can't help but feel I am being sent on a wild goose chase, and the assertion "I've caught scum doing this before" is a lie.

[Val89]

Why are you willing to overlook them and dismiss them as not having a chance to flip scum over HT?

I am not overlooking them. There is always a chance I am wrong, but I don't think they are going to flip scum. I believe they are, in fact, just an eager new-to-longform-mafia VT trying their best with the knowledge they've gleaned from a read of the wiki and playing mafia in the other ways they have listed under "interests" in their profile. I also appreciate that if you haven't made that same transition from the ToS/ToL style mechanic-deduction-puzzle mafia games yourself, the results of that mindset bleeding in are going to give you willies, I don't dismiss that all. I see an alternative explanation for all this behaviour that I evaluate as much more likely than them being super-easy-to-catch-eagar-carless-doesn't-give-a-shit-about-throwing-the-game-for-their-partners scum or mega-brain openwolfer of the century.

In other words, to be explicit - I am TOWNREADING Rosen, while at the same time I understand why some of those that are scumreading them are doing so. That stands in contrast to Alyssa where I couldn't even understand the case. I realise there is enough strength of feeling there that might have been a me problem, but the fact is I don't think Rosen nor Alyssa are likely to hit scum, and I've seen what looks to me to be legitimately scummy behaviour from Hu Tao. I'm not even saying I'm totally sold on flipping her today, but I want to pressure her, and I want at least an attempt of an explanation for it before I just write it off as "shenanigans". From my point of view, those shenanigans could easily be scum ones.

[Rosenator]

I recall when I came to mafiascum, I came after playing several hundred hours of short-form online mafia (Throne of Lies was my choice, rather than ToS) where the games are very mechanics heavy, mass claiming early is common, and the games are almost like puzzles to solve - heavy on the deduction rather than the social - I know the few in person games I've played (mainly One Night Ultimate Werewolf) are much the same, and someone with experience with epicmafia will have to confirm what site culture is like there, the second-hand impression I've gotten from when I've seen in discussed elsewhere on the website leads to me to think it's probably in the same vein. Nothing I've seen from Rosen can't be explained by someone struggling to switch from that mindset, and the think both the early VT claim, and the comments about wanting to wait D2 for a potential cop result AFTER I explained earlier in the game why discussing theoretical PRs wasn't it only stands to reinforce that impression.

holy shit, i can't begin to fathom the accuracy with which you've just dissected me. i can confirm epicmafia lies in a similar pool since its timers are

very

short. i should consider changing the way i approach games here in the future

[KayJayQueue]

This wagon sucks. Get off it and join me on Hu Tao, where you have a chance of actually hitting scum.

This feels weird especially after most of the wagon unvoted or changed their vote and they are in no danger currently. The wagon didn’t even last enough at E-1 to force a claim. I wonder why you feel the need to imply a worse situation than is currently happening.

[KayJayQueue]

This wagon sucks. Get off it and join me on Hu Tao, where you have a chance of actually hitting scum.

This feels weird especially after most of the wagon unvoted or changed their vote and they are in no danger currently. The wagon didn’t even last enough at E-1 to force a claim. I wonder why you feel the need to imply a worse situation than is currently happening.

Haaaaaa just kidding I was confused and thought you were talking about Alyssa.

I really should read through the game fully before I make these confident posts lol

[geraintm]

also, if you ISO geraintm you'll see nothing from them but a tunnel based on a non-serious gut. truly a player who's swayed by their lunch rather than the crowd

Sounds like gera

Shhh, save it for the scum chat

[KayJayQueue]

also, if you ISO geraintm you'll see nothing from them but a tunnel based on a non-serious gut. truly a player who's swayed by their lunch rather than the crowd

Sounds like gera

Shhh, save it for the scum chat

Not this time! I’m finally free of you

[Val89]

i can't begin to fathom the accuracy with which you've just dissected me.

That would be because

I

myself was you, not that long ago. That said, I can't give you any further passes for this again. Put it this way, running up and outing our prince or mayor or whatever in the games you play is just "oh well, unfortunate, but part of the game" type deal. Accidently outing a cop or any other type of Town power today, or even giving scum clues as to who they might possibly be by eliminating those slots that aren't can be a game losing event in itself. You need to be careful. People will find you scummy for it and it's difficult to sort town pushing you from scum doing it because town have genuine reasons for doing so. It's also why I felt running Alyssa up to hammer range on what smelt like shit to me gave me such an ick.

[geraintm]

also, if you ISO geraintm you'll see nothing from them but a tunnel based on a non-serious gut. truly a player who's swayed by their lunch rather than the crowd

Sounds like gera

Have to concur, as much as it would be awesome if it didn't.

Also, this is complete bollocks from rose, Jay and highprincess.

I have actually articulated an.opinion about a player on day 1.
I am not voting longest wagon.

This is the most un-Geraint game I've played in years.

[Val89]

while i didn't intend to sort, i've been told before in posts like 31 that it comes across as that - and I do see how sorting plus rushing (the eagerness others have mentioned) greatly helps scum.

Greedy, I hope what I have said above makes sense, but in case it didn't, to hammer the point home - here is something that I think lays the bleeding of that mindset bare. Post 31 was the first time I told Rosen to be careful about incidental PR hunting; and you might note how Rosen has equated that with "sorting" here, making that to be a negative.

In those other games (or at least the one I am most familiar with, with meta at the time I played it), PR hunting IS essentially equivalent to sorting. You run up each slot into hammer range early and often, you force a mass claim, or as much as you can force D1, you get everyone to claim night actions in popcorn fashion. Execute-all-liars is sacrosanct, and as town you try and solve the game like a puzzle based on the claimed night actions ie: you are "sorting" based almost entirely on whether the claimed night actions make sense in the context of the game state.

Here, in forum mafia land, to think that to be caught "sorting", the only actual proper distinguisher of town and scum, to be a negative thing IS quite rightly going to make people lacking that context uncomfortable. But that context, to me at least, explains 199, it explains 242 and it makes 49 quite an accurate and self-reflective statement, no?

[KayJayQueue]

also, if you ISO geraintm you'll see nothing from them but a tunnel based on a non-serious gut. truly a player who's swayed by their lunch rather than the crowd

Sounds like gera

Have to concur, as much as it would be awesome if it didn't.

Also, this is complete bollocks from rose, Jay and highprincess.

I have actually articulated an.opinion about a player on day 1.
I am not voting longest wagon.

This is the most un-Geraint game I've played in years.

So you admit after a few scum games you’re changing up your playstyle….hmmm interesting. I wonder what prompted the change. Maybe getting caught one too many times?

[DArby]

@D'Arby I have not seen any evidence that it's null behaviour from her, is the problem. Like I said to you in 163, seeing an example or two of where she's caught doing scum doing "it", where I am struggling to figure out what "it" is, as she's POSTIVITLY ASSERTED she has, would be enough to explain that behaviour. Just the name of the game, I'll do the leg work myself.

She is ignoring my request to do so, and you've told me you won't ask her; so until I do see evidence of that, my chosen way of dealing with that remains to continue pointing out that refusal while encourage pressure and do the work myself. As I continue to skim her games and see no evidence - although I have seen at least 2 references so far to her deliberately and actively changing her play as both alignments - I can't help but feel I am being sent on a wild goose chase, and the assertion "I've caught scum doing this before" is a lie.

I mean, eh? Maybe I’m just biased from our game that ended last night, but Hu is null at worst for me.

[HighPrincessErinys]

also, if you ISO geraintm you'll see nothing from them but a tunnel based on a non-serious gut. truly a player who's swayed by their lunch rather than the crowd

Sounds like gera

Have to concur, as much as it would be awesome if it didn't.

Also, this is complete bollocks from rose, Jay and highprincess.

I have actually articulated an.opinion about a player on day 1.
I am not voting longest wagon.

This is the most un-Geraint game I've played in years.

It just all blends together as "barely playing" to me. Sorry!

[DArby]

It feels like you’re giving grace on play style while condemning on another. It just doesn’t feel consistent to me. @Val