In post 2572, Metal Sonic wrote:Hi ooba. You have been attempting to subvert the nacho plan at every point after the single Sotty flip! Why would you use it as a valid point!
Haha!!
Who pushed through the Sotty lynch?
I'll let the other people decided.
Who tried to get Nacho to change his lynch with two scum in it not once, twice but thrice? Never before have posts screamed alignment to me in MS like these three.
In post 2547, ooba wrote:Here's the main posts where its obvious for those who don't have the time to go through other points.
#2235-8: He pleads with Nacho for any changes to his list.
LAST WORDS! LAST WILL! ANY CHANGES???? (I KNOW YOU WILL)
EVERYTHING YOU SAY IS VERY IMPORTANT
IF WE LOSE IT IS ON YOU.
YOU WILL LEAD US TO VICTORY.
BE THE KING AND LORD FOR ALL OF US AND BRING US TO VICTORY
yeah if you have any changes to your plan because of that shitty opportunistic wagon composition (note: mollie + grey on the same wagon, sotty not even voting you) you really should give them before your heart stops
In post 2576, Metal Sonic wrote:Do you no longer have doubts that grey is scum? I think I wanted his head ever since d1 but maybe the flips change things
Then again we have achieved our goal of 2 scum dead
What do you mean 'no longer'??
I've always read Grey as town since I read the goddamn thread. Sotty was obvious scum, Kagami fairly too.
@ABR
, I can quote posts for days too. You'll lose in this game.
This is where I am right now: Sotty\Kagami and 2 from {Zar, Wgeu, Mollie}
Nacho-scum would have never pushed Sotty\Kagami\Zar.
^Pedit: Agreed that the Nacho wagon {ABR, MS} is town. But it's also wrong.
In post 1876, ooba wrote:Ok. Done with Day 1. Here are my thoughts:
- Kagami, Sotty, Eddie, Zar literally just lurked out the end of the day
- Kagami used GreyIce suspicion as a crutch to literally comment on nothing else throughout the entire day.
- This is similar to wgeurt's MS suspicion at the start of the game - but his play improved as the day continued - I liked the Kagami vote when Hoopla's wagon looked like it might die down.
-
Nacho and GreyIce are the towniest of town
. I'm no expert scum hunter, but I am good at town hunting. Their conviction is extremely genuine. People hold Nacho to some godlike town standard but there are many nuggets of town here:
a) His reads look spot on
b) The "I don't know how many scum bodies I have to drop"
c) Saying this is good to GreyIce's "Let's lynch Kagami today. If she flips town, I'll help you with Nacho tomorrow" to ABR
I am willing to lynch: Nacho, ZZZX, Zar
I want to lynch: Metal, Mollie, Ooba
Towniest being ABR, Scummiest being Ooba.
This list is fucking interesting. Interesting as fuck. Why does she want to lynch Metal, Mollie and Ooba?
We can say "shitty list" all we want, but why is metal there? It wasn't a realistic lynch for the day and Sotty isn't an idiot.
Ooba/Seraphim she laid it heavily on... don't think he's scum.
wguerts again is a strange one to see in the super town read. Why?
If I theorize two scum in the "Will not lynch" and one in the "willing to lynch" then it's Wguerts/ABR and ZZZX/Zar?
Yes aware this points to me to. As I said, am fine with dying here.
Personally it could be one in the "want to lynch" today. MS being pasted there is just weird.
There's no reason to lynch you today - your play speaks for itself.
Please give me the MS lynch - I'm certain of this.
Ooba, I caught Sotty at #210 and you predecessor pulled all the breaks in the world to stop me from getting Sotty lynched. Tried to shift the lynch to Grey Ice. At the time, I pointed out exactly how bizarre it was for him to go from a Sotty vote with reasons, to an unvote three hours later for bad reasons. Your meaningless catch up post at 1868 comes without any scumhunting, observations, quotes. You just posted a blank reads list.
We can all just piggyback on all the legwork I've done in this game, which will be ignored by most players in this game, and praise Nacho the martyr for coming to the exact same conclusions I was going to come to (although I would lynch Kagami > Sotty > Ooba instead of Sotty > Kagami > Ooba like him). I did more than Nacho did for this game but he will be remembered for his sacrifice and I'll be remembered for blowing up and losing interest in the game after Pirate replaced in.
It's okay.
I'm a results guy. We win this one.
Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards.
I've been spot on in this game when I wasn't listening to my team. Whenever I listened to my team, I said so. I didn't have good reasons because my team didn't have good reasons, but I placed my trust in them because I doubted myself constantly. It ended up costing me.
It's twisted that you would listen to Nacho and not me when I've been saying the same stuff he has, before he said it. I give credit to Nacho, good team player. Took one for the team. His word isn't gospel. And he's better scum than I am, and I'm a better scumhunter than he is.
: The biggest concern I have with Kagami is that all Kagami has done this game is tunnel GreyICE, which means, if GreyICE is town, Kagami's play has been worse than doing nothing: it's been actively and lazily attacking the shit out of town for literally no reason. If GreyICE is scum, then she's been railing valiantly against the most difficult to lynch scum player in the game instead of picking off his partners and his voice. I believe that Kagami, as a player, is smart and not emotional and is able to look at big picture play. She hasn't done that at all with her relentless push on GreyICE.
I also have a lot of difficulty believing her reads are actually real: she forms the GreyICE/Hoopla scum duo in 349 and never changes or doubts it once for literally the entire game. I believe it's impossible to read the game and have a scum group that never changes ever, especially for a player that isn't absolute shit. The reasons for her townreads in 698 were "these players showed resistance against GreyICE. these players are town.", which, again, is absolutely 100% horseshit because only bad players approach a game that shallowly.
In addition, there's also the whole fact that she didn't think to vote until 412 which makes no kind of sense whatsoever, considering the confidence level she was claiming on GreyICE much, much earlier.
Spoiler: Specific Rebuttals to Points
In post 354, Kagami wrote:He complains that sotty is willing to town block with players who haven't even posted against, pointing to a list that is probably just people sotty likes/has played with before.
GreyICE has no motive to make this point as scum, considering it's a point that's easily rebutted by Sotty.
In post 354, Kagami wrote:sotty is apparently pathetic and the worst liar ever. And is a legendary scum player in the next post.
Attacking a player with rhetoric isn't exactly uncommon in mafia.
In post 354, Kagami wrote:There are other little things too. I don't believe town greyICE would ever utter "scum caught for the wrong reasons." He's just too smart to believe that. 277 is another ridiculous thing I don't think town-GI would say. "One of my townreads is scum" reads as "I'll have to 180 on one of my townreads once my scumreads are all dead."
"Scum caught for the wrong reasons" - fairly common statement, probably uttered by GreyICE in a good portion of his games if Kagami ever decided to glance through them, which she probably didn't. And, considering this was refuted from everyone who actually knows GreyICE, it also seems pretty strange that Kagami never looked at GI to see if maybe her perception of him as a player was wrong, but nope, just kept tunneling.
The comment on the second quote: it seems reasonable for GI to feel uncomfortable with the speed wagons are building, thanks to dynamics of the game.
In post 666, Kagami wrote:Anyway, I challenge anyone to read greyICE's iso and find a post that both has content and is not contradicted by another of his posts.
This "challenge" is bullshit because it's incredibly easy to make an ISO that is consistent: being consistent is not being town. As for accusing or even implying GreyICE of not producing content when he's been one of the main drivers of the game... no thank you!
In post 689, Kagami wrote:Your townreads are people who call you town. Your scumreads are people who question your alignment.
This seems like an odd accusation from someone whose townreads are "people that showed resistance to GI townread": it also sounds like bullshit (I didn't explicitly townread GI until very very late, don't think MS did but I might be wrong, wgeurts, ABR, Hoopla, nope).
Sotty:
Sotty shares a bit of the Kagami problem is that she tunnels far too hard on Seraphim for the majority of the game and doesn't really do much else. My biggest problem is how undeveloped her reads are outside of Seraphim: yes, it's great she's voting Seraphim and all, but what about everyone else...?
Her townread on Hoopla (which, considering she was the only person in thread with an explicit and consistent townread on Hoopla, should have been a priority to explain), consists of "I don't want to lynch Hoopla Day 1 unless she has a major scumslip" and "I have a hard time faking seeing Hoopla fake this as scum". The way she sort of passively avoided the wagon makes sense if she had a scumread/undecided view on the slot, but a good town read getting mislynched should have pushed Sotty to explain a lot more, just letting the wagon happen is a very strong scum signal.
She's also not willing to scumread that many players: yesterday, she had a townread on ZZZX, wgeurts, ABR, Zar, Hoopla. If you add her to that townblock, you get {Kagami, Seraphim, Eddie, Nacho, GreyICE, Metal Sonic}. She said the only thing she had against Kagami was her lurking, but she made a few points and then disappeared. She pushed against Serpahim. She took light potshots against Metal Sonic. She soft-pushed me a couple of times to say I never was intense as I usually was, but never really advanced past that.
Her interactions with me are also seriously lacking: Sotty is one of those players I town block well with because she's very aggressive with me when I'm being inconsistent and she isn't afraid to push on me or call out my reads when she believes they're bad. I have trouble believing Sotty actually let me be as passive and laid-back as I have been this game (until late yesterday): she just gave me a free pass when she is used to a much more in your face Nacho, and I don't think she'd do that as town. I also don't think she'd let me think she was scum for literally an entire day phase without being more aggressive about erasing that read on her (not even a "I'm town, I pinky promise???), but that's a lesser point than everything else.
Her thought processes are also basically just lacking in depth: town-Sotty isn't afraid to pursue a variety of different avenues, she has small theories here and there, her reads are fluid as hell because she's constantly thinking about them, and even though I'm willing to allow a little bit dialed back because working in the coal mines is seriously tiring business, but this Sotty feels like a different person completely from normal town game.
Seraphim:
The scummiest part of Seraphim is how he goes from having good reads to having shit reads over pretty arbitrary reasons.
He starts out scumreading Silverwolf and Eddie: Silverwolf read dies because Kagami replaces in, he gains a Sotty scumread. Then, his Sotty scumread dies because Kagami posts a "convincing case" on GreyICE (which ends up in him cleanly unvoting, which doesn't make sense because 1) if GreyICE case was confusing, why the hell didn't he just sheep it? It was early game enough, and 2) Kagami's case for Sotty being town was "I've seen mislynched town do worse", which is actually one of the least convincing town cases in my life, so don't see how it would work unless Seraphim actually bought into the GreyICE = scum case, which leads back to 1), and his Hoopla read comes out of the blue, seems based on "lurking" and nothing else, and sticks with him literally the entire game. He never mentions Eddie again, despite the early scumread.
Other questionable moments:
-Votes Sotty because he thinks one of GreyICE/Kagami/Sotty is scum. Believes Sotty-scum implicates Kagami-scum but Kagami-scum doesn't implicate Sotty-scum. He believes this because Sotty is distancing from Kagami's defense (which implies scum together), and because he doesn't see Kagami doing this unless Sotty and Kagami were scum together or Kagami was town (Kagami doesn't white knight Sotty here... why?),
-All of #966, where Seraphim says he's playing for survival because "teams" and his philosophy background, which hopefully doesn't need any sort of commentary at all.
EddieFenix
EddieFenix... on first pass, seems a hell of a lot like Kagami 2.0, with much weaker logic and a hell of a lot more sass.
Things I like:
-General confidence and shittalking
-Bulba Capcom Crossover Theory (Where did this go? Why didn't you ever push me more?)
-Bulba and him being in sync posts
What I don't like is, again, the sitting on GreyICE all day and not really pursuing any alternatives which could possibly be scum. And his case on GreyICE is not so great, it's actually really really horrible. All he does is say that GreyICE's Sotty case is horrible salesmanship, and then absolutely nothing at all until the Hoopla/GreyICE team theory and #602, which is where the bullshit comes to a head.
Grey's first point is that Eddie didn't actually interact with his townreads in any meaningful manner, which is suspicious because usually people interact with other people before they're worshipping them as town as shit.
Eddie's rebuttal is that it's fucking astonishing GreyICE believes that Eddie's team isn't in his ear, which actually isn't a rebuttal at all and instead is a really cool "oh team mafia is my excuse!!!" bit like Seraphim's #966 was.
Eddie's attack on Grey is the exact same as Sotty's was waaaay back on Page 1 (namely, that he should have voted Hoopla before Sotty), which is an old accusation that was already addressed in 119.
Then he has an accusation that Grey called Sotty's scumgame "legendary" in response to a reference to a game where Sotty was town, so yeah that makes no fucking sense.
Then he accuses of Grey misrepping that he and Sotty have played multiple games together, even though I'm pretty sure Sotty didn't link any other games.
And then calls him scum because he didn't rip apart ZZZX's PBPA for reasons that I don't really understand at all.
And that's it.
That's that entire case from that big #602 post, which is probably the worst case that I've read since I started reading this game. This makes sense from scum who is pushing a main scumread based on absolutely nothing until he actually tries to sit down and bullshit a case, but it doesn't make sense from town who is active and discussing his scumread with partners who are in his ear. It's also pretty great that this is the only piece of actual motivation or reasoning he even attempts to give: the rest of his reads is just straight rhetoric (see: Kagami read).
It's also a pretty strong tell that all mollie had to say is "Nacho's town" in our game: I've never really known her to read me without interacting with me and not being interested in interacting with me in game: maybe she can say that she doesn't want to step on Eddie's toes, but even mollie whose feeling out boundaries doesn't leave me cold and alone with that non-interaction.
I'm posting these now so I can take a break without being afraid of losing posts. I'm sorry for going overboard in Kagami read, just got excited I had a laptop again and had a bunch of overambitious ideas I had to curb so people actually read my shit.
Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards.
In post 2582, Albert B. Rampage wrote:Ooba, I caught Sotty at #210 and you predecessor pulled all the breaks in the world to stop me from getting Sotty lynched. Tried to shift the lynch to Grey Ice. At the time, I pointed out exactly how bizarre it was for him to go from a Sotty vote with reasons, to an unvote three hours later for bad reasons. Your meaningless catch up post at 1868 comes
without any scumhunting, observations, quotes
. You just posted a blank reads list.
We can all just piggyback on all the legwork I've done in this game, which will be ignored by most players in this game, and praise Nacho the martyr for coming to the exact same conclusions I was going to come to (although I would lynch Kagami > Sotty > Ooba instead of Sotty > Kagami > Ooba like him). I did more than Nacho did for this game but he will be remembered for his sacrifice and I'll be remembered for blowing up and losing interest in the game after Pirate replaced in.
It's okay.
I'm a results guy. We win this one.
Lol. Blank scum hunting?
I needed you on D2 when I was pushing the Sotty lynch through. I don't need you today because this is my town.
The thing with Sotty is that - even in your 'Nacho is scum' scenario, Sotty has good chances of being scum buddy because of Sotty's apparent town read on Nacho.
Add:
And D1 voting shows Zar voting Sotty - so that slot might be town.
Way ahead of him realizing and coming to the same conclusions as me.
He followed me.
He recognized it. He said it himself.
I'm better than him. He made more mistakes than I did. I'll prove it by the end of this game. And I still won't be liked, people will avoid my games (I'll be avoiding you too pirate), and my name will be dragged in the mud. It's a blessing, really. The groupthinking mass will keep low expectations of me and allow me to thrive unencumbered.
Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards.
Way ahead of him realizing and coming to the same conclusions as me.
He followed me.
He recognized it. He said it himself.
I'm better than him. He made more mistakes than I did. I'll prove it by the end of this game. And I still won't be liked, people will avoid my games (I'll be avoiding you too pirate), and my name will be dragged in the mud. It's a blessing, really. The groupthinking mass will keep low expectations of me and allow me to thrive unencumbered.
- You pushed Nacho on D2 over everything else when Sotty was a viable wagon.
- Should I remind you of the Bane, Joker, Bane's Girlfriend post you made about {Nacho, Grey, me, Mollie} when we were on the wagon
- You literally were absent the last two days when scum were lynched except a solitary post on D3
Nothing fucking matters more than Seraphim placing a third vote on Sotty as Grey Ice and wgeurts were pushing it, then I place a fourth, he quickly unvotes with no reasoning, is asked to explain, shifts to Grey Ice, and lurks the day out while Hoopla hangs. Nothing beats that. It's the most telling piece of the game. Nothing else fucking matters, Ooba. Critical mistake. I pointed it out in 5 posts immediately as it happened. Are you aware of the word contemporaneous? It's a word Titus would use.
You are nothing. You're a nobody. Nothing you say matters. You're voice is shaking and shriveling and I'm about to make you my victim in this game to the benefit of this town. WELL PLAYED, GOODBYE SCUM.
Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards.
In post 2593, Albert B. Rampage wrote:Nothing fucking matters more than Seraphim placing a third vote on Sotty as Grey Ice and wgeurts were pushing it, then I place a fourth, he quickly unvotes with no reasoning, is asked to explain, shifts to Grey Ice, and lurks the day out while Hoopla hangs. Nothing beats that. It's the most telling piece of the game. Nothing else fucking matters, Ooba. Critical mistake. I pointed it out in 5 posts immediately as it happened. Are you aware of the word contemporaneous? It's a word Titus would use.
You are nothing. You're a nobody. Nothing you say matters. You're voice is shaking and shriveling and I'm about to make you my victim in this game to the benefit of this town. WELL PLAYED, GOODBYE SCUM.
Nothing fucking matters? Because you set up a weak ass associative on a weak ass slot?
Nothing fucking matters because I obvtown'd the minute I entered the thread?
Here's my ISO - I stopped at #10 - because it is so clearly WRITTEN IN CAPTIAL LETTERS that I'm town town town.
#5:
“Nacho is town.” “Kagami\Sotty\???\???“
#6:
Nacho-scum would have never pushed Sotty\Kagami\Zar.
#7:
Have you discussed who's scum with Nacho?
#8:
“Nacho and GreyIce are the towniest of town.”
“- Kagami, Sotty, Eddie, Zar literally just lurked out the end of the day
- Kagami used GreyIce suspicion as a crutch to literally comment on nothing else throughout the entire day. “
#9:
“I'm town.
Plus if
a) Either of Nacho or GreyIce are scum
b) If at least one of Sotty or Kagami is NOT scum
I'll stop playing Mafia forever.”
#10:
There's no way I'm for voting or lynching either of these two players. (GreyIce\Nacho) We need scum flips faster. Want to make a reverse deal?
Lynch Sotty today. Should flip scum. If not, lynch Kagami tomorrow. If both flip town, you have my vote for the rest of the game - including a self vote on me.
It's super easy to come in and say this person is town and that person is scum. Any monkey can look at the scum PT and follow instructions like that. Doesn't erase all the scummy things Seraphim did, does it? Die scum.
Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards.
In post 2596, Albert B. Rampage wrote:It's super easy to come in and say this person is town and that person is scum. Any monkey can look at the scum PT and follow instructions like that. Doesn't erase all the scummy things Seraphim did, does it? Die scum.
No its suboptimal in this setup.
I decided to call one mislynch on the table town (Nacho) - pushed against his lynch so strongly - and went after Sotty.
You did the same fucking thing you accuse Sera of doing on D2. Who stonwalled the wagon on D2 when it was a four votes?
ABR, I remember day 1 when it was pure and magical. Sotty and Kagami. Sotty and Kagami. Did I get pulled into lynching Hoopla? Sure. Day 2. What happened? I got worried, I got tired, I got unsure. Maybe it was the VLA. I'm not gonna sit here and beat my own chest about it, but I was shaken. I could have done better. Maybe I deserve to die. Maybe you do too. Maybe me, you and Nacho can discuss how we got here in the dead thread. Ain't sure you're town, if you're scum your game has been marvelous, but there's cracks. Heh, cracks. That was Nacho, remember? Cracks. We ignored enormous, gaping holes, for cracks. For some fucking meta read of Kagami, for Sotty somehow getting townier because she posted shit.
ZZZX's voting record is an enormous gaping hole. Not a crack. His participation is an enormous, gaping hole. Not a crack.
Ooba too, probably should die. It's easy to state how townie people are at the 11th hour. He wanted to go off message yesterday. But you did the day before even that.
